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Old 02-19-2011, 08:38 PM   #1
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E85 thread

This should be strictly e85 talk. If you are considering e85 post your questions here. I know there's alot of good info to be found and I have a few questions my self.



Any way, it's a good inexpensive alternative to race fuel and also green! Discuss.




Couple questions I have.

How to size injectors? I'm aiming for 500 hp maybe a little less on an online six? And I also read that it is not corrosive to rubber? Can any one clear that up?
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Old 02-20-2011, 01:50 AM   #2
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I also planing the switch to e85 on my sr20. I was looking at Injector dynamics 1000cc but I wonder if they can hold 400whp ???
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Old 02-20-2011, 02:32 AM   #3
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At our shop, sell injector dynamics and most of the cars we tune are running E85.

On our Mustang Dyne, we see Subarus hit high 300 horsepower (to the wheels) with 1000cc injectors and E85.
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Old 02-20-2011, 05:42 AM   #4
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You need 25% more injector for the same air fuel ratio at the same air as with E10. That's all you need to know for injector sizing.
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Old 02-20-2011, 06:57 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Def View Post
You need 25% more injector for the same air fuel ratio at the same air as with E10. That's all you need to know for injector sizing.

Thats a little different then what I've seen... I've always seen people go 40% larger.


Heres the formula....
Horsepower to injector size, so for 100whp you need 270cc injectors(hypothetical). So when converting to ethanol, you need 40% more inector. So take injector size(x) and multiply it by 1.4(140%). That will give you the size injector you need to make sure your covered.


In this instance:

270 X 1.4 = 378.

So 370cc's would be be a tad short for 140%... about 3% off.

For a 300zx the injector sizing is nearly proportional to whp. 370cc injectors are good till 350whp.

So ethanol on a TTZ with annodized rails(crucial) pushing 350whp.

370 X 1.4 = 490cc. So nismo 555 injectors would suffice.




More to it that just this, the main reason for the fuel consumtion is because of timing you can throw at the motor and force the car to make more power due to better maps.



Hope this helps.
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Old 02-20-2011, 08:01 AM   #6
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I was searching into e85 and there hasn't been a thread like this in a bit. A lot of the threads were from years ago and there was/is? lots of controversy with e85. So, are there any long term affects to the engine? and how much higher compression can you run efficiently? With the sleeves being iron correct me if I'm wrong wouldn't the e85 corrode away the sleeves?
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Old 02-20-2011, 08:09 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dj Ryderz View Post
I also planing the switch to e85 on my sr20. I was looking at Injector dynamics 1000cc but I wonder if they can hold 400whp ???
I'm right at 600whp and using the ID1000's on E85.


Fuel Setup:
Injector Dynamics ID-1000cc
Greddy Fuel Rail
Aeromotive FPR
Intank Walbro Pump
Inline Bosch 044
Aeromotive Inline Filter
All Stainless Lines from tank.



Quote:
Originally Posted by s13 loverr View Post
I was searching into e85 and there hasn't been a thread like this in a bit. A lot of the threads were from years ago and there was/is? lots of controversy with e85. So, are there any long term affects to the engine? and how much higher compression can you run efficiently? With the sleeves being iron correct me if I'm wrong wouldn't the e85 corrode away the sleeves?
There's a lot of myths out there, for some accurate answers PM 4x4le, he's been using it for years with no problems.
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Old 02-20-2011, 01:13 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s15specR View Post
I'm right at 600whp and using the ID1000's on E85.


Fuel Setup:
Injector Dynamics ID-1000cc
Greddy Fuel Rail
Aeromotive FPR
Intank Walbro Pump
Inline Bosch 044
Aeromotive Inline Filter
All Stainless Lines from tank.
Hoo sweet thanks for the info. I Know the ID's flow 1000cc at 3bar. Are you running higher pressure for getting that 600whp?
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Old 02-20-2011, 01:47 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s15specR View Post
I'm right at 600whp and using the ID1000's on E85.


Fuel Setup:
Injector Dynamics ID-1000cc
Greddy Fuel Rail
Aeromotive FPR
Intank Walbro Pump
Inline Bosch 044
Aeromotive Inline Filter
All Stainless Lines from tank.





There's a lot of myths out there, for some accurate answers PM 4x4le, he's been using it for years with no problems.
I am curious too. What is your injector duty cylce? Is there room to grow?
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Old 02-20-2011, 02:28 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s15specR View Post
I'm right at 600whp and using the ID1000's on E85.


Fuel Setup:
Injector Dynamics ID-1000cc
Greddy Fuel Rail
Aeromotive FPR
Intank Walbro Pump
Inline Bosch 044
Aeromotive Inline Filter
All Stainless Lines from tank.
DAMN. SR20DET? built bottom end? how much boost are you running and on what turbo?.. thanks for the info!
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Old 02-20-2011, 02:46 PM   #11
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E85 is awesome. One of the cars I helped build is using 1000 cc rc engineering injectors on a ka-t and is putting down 436 whp with lots of room to grow. The best part about this fuel is it realtive cool burn meaning you can run a much leaner mixture.

A good estimation for injector sizing is to add a third. This comes from the fact that e85 has about 3/4 the energy density as normal gas. So if you are using 600cc injectors you will need 800cc injectors to supply the necessary fuel. Most common injector size is 1000cc just because they are easy to find.

Rc engineering has some great injectors and due to their design allow you to keep a realatively low idle rpm.

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 02-20-2011, 02:56 PM   #12
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s15specr, what size in tank walbro pump are you runnin?
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Old 02-20-2011, 03:37 PM   #13
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Is it actually corossive to rubber?
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Old 02-20-2011, 03:59 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s15specR View Post
I'm right at 600whp and using the ID1000's on E85.


Fuel Setup:
Injector Dynamics ID-1000cc
Greddy Fuel Rail
Aeromotive FPR
Intank Walbro Pump
Inline Bosch 044
Aeromotive Inline Filter
All Stainless Lines from tank.
Pics of this set up? Sounds like my set up minus the stainless lines.
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Old 02-20-2011, 04:07 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bbsalexaz View Post
Thats a little different then what I've seen... I've always seen people go 40% larger.


Heres the formula....
Horsepower to injector size, so for 100whp you need 270cc injectors(hypothetical). So when converting to ethanol, you need 40% more inector. So take injector size(x) and multiply it by 1.4(140%). That will give you the size injector you need to make sure your covered.


In this instance:

270 X 1.4 = 378.

So 370cc's would be be a tad short for 140%... about 3% off.

For a 300zx the injector sizing is nearly proportional to whp. 370cc injectors are good till 350whp.

So ethanol on a TTZ with annodized rails(crucial) pushing 350whp.

370 X 1.4 = 490cc. So nismo 555 injectors would suffice.




More to it that just this, the main reason for the fuel consumtion is because of timing you can throw at the motor and force the car to make more power due to better maps.



Hope this helps.
I've tuned my car on E85 with a wideband for hours and hours - it's 25%. That gave EXACTLY the same lambda with the same fuel map.
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Old 02-20-2011, 06:29 PM   #16
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Are there any how to's for a stock ka24de and if there is any potential in doing so?
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Old 02-20-2011, 06:44 PM   #17
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Quote:
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Pics of this set up? Sounds like my set up minus the stainless lines.


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Old 02-20-2011, 06:58 PM   #18
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Old 02-20-2011, 07:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slideslidegnarslide View Post
Is it actually corossive to rubber?
Yes it will eventually kill rubber.

Any of you dudes runing straight ethonol,or brewing your own

From my research 1000cc inj is a good/decent start piont ,but there is way to many variables from set up to set up to be specific. But I would let duty cycle VS AFR be the judge.
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Old 02-21-2011, 12:06 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain! View Post
..The best part about this fuel is it realtive cool burn meaning you can run a much leaner mixture.
Why? you need to run it richer in boost. Much richer so you get more energy density. If you're just cruising, yes, but not when you boosting.

Stoichiometric ratio for regular unleaded gasoline is 14.7:1, while 9.7:1 for E85

So when you run a richer ratio for E85 you get more energy, hence more power, but you use more fuel. Methanol you use even more fuel but you cram even more energy, hence even more fuel.
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Old 02-21-2011, 04:10 PM   #21
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hey Subash, thanks for throwing me out there. Someone pm'd me and directed me to this thread and Im greatfull of every discussion we have on any forum about e85.
Im subscribing as I will be hopefully be posting in this thread some but I just dont have the time right now.

I never noticed how similar our bays are, and will be soon very similar when I go topmount and get it back together.





I would also like to add that the internals of this engine that were run on e85 for almost their entire life are pictured in the link in my sig. There is a description of them ect and why they are out of the engine. Im not bringing this up to advertise them, but to show you how clean e85 can keep your engine inside and Im sure all of you can realize how much this can help the performance and longitivity of your engines (as long as your oil system dont take a dump on you).

Oh well, bigger and better things are panning out for my sr.
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:21 PM   #22
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So my question is what size injectors will I need doing 800hp on a 300zx if I want to run two maps one for e85 and another for pump gas when I can't get to an e85 station what about fuel rail and pump?
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:25 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surfpac View Post
Why? you need to run it richer in boost. Much richer so you get more energy density. If you're just cruising, yes, but not when you boosting.

Stoichiometric ratio for regular unleaded gasoline is 14.7:1, while 9.7:1 for E85

So when you run a richer ratio for E85 you get more energy, hence more power, but you use more fuel. Methanol you use even more fuel but you cram even more energy, hence even more fuel.
Based on the cool burning statement.
I wold like to add ,that e85 allows you to throw a bit more timing at the motor also,with all other factors being the same across the board.
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Old 02-21-2011, 11:26 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surfpac View Post
Why? you need to run it richer in boost. Much richer so you get more energy density. If you're just cruising, yes, but not when you boosting.

Stoichiometric ratio for regular unleaded gasoline is 14.7:1, while 9.7:1 for E85

So when you run a richer ratio for E85 you get more energy, hence more power, but you use more fuel. Methanol you use even more fuel but you cram even more energy, hence even more fuel.
Im not sure wether i agree totally with you or disagree with you because of the way you said it.

You in fact can run and should run a leaner mixture with e85 than you would gas. Lets not go get confused with how they have different stoich afrs, lets just look at lambida. Youll run a leaner lambida with e85 than you would gas.

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Old 02-22-2011, 12:20 AM   #25
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This is a noob question but why upgrade injectors if u r gona run a leaner mixture on e85
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Old 02-22-2011, 12:41 AM   #26
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Quote:
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This is a noob question but why upgrade injectors if u r gona run a leaner mixture on e85
Because your still using more fuel. Im on my phone so i cant provide much as far as linking you somewhere, but look up afrs vs lambidia for different fuels and it will hopefully paint a picture for you.


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Old 02-22-2011, 10:12 AM   #27
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Im not sure wether i agree totally with you or disagree with you because of the way you said it.

You in fact can run and should run a leaner mixture with e85 than you would gas. Lets not go get confused with how they have different stoich afrs, lets just look at lambida. Youll run a leaner lambida with e85 than you would gas.

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K, I may have said it wrong but you have to run more fuel when running alcohol (E85, methanol) even much more for nitro methane. Really, AFR's doesn't have anything to do with it? Sure it does, you need to pack in more fuel to get a larger energy density, hence more power.
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Old 02-22-2011, 10:17 AM   #28
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Hey, now that I think about it more you're correct ,the lambda value would be slightly leaner but the AFR's with E85 are much denser than petrol gas.
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Old 02-22-2011, 10:18 AM   #29
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Stoich on e85 is like 9:1
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Old 02-22-2011, 03:52 PM   #30
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Quote:
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Really, AFR's doesn't have anything to do with it? Sure it does, you.......
I have a major problem with this. You quote my post and reply with this, but your arguing against a statement I never made.
I never said afrs dont have anything to do with it, its just more aproperate to look at lambida when dealing with e85. And untill you understand this statement you have no business tuning anything, let alone an engine running e85.

Is 10:1 rich or lean? Well it depends if your talking about gas or e85. Most people wouldnt run a gas engine that rich at full boost. At the same time that would be a little lean for e85 to even idle allthough it can idle at that air fuel ratio.
14.7:1=1 lambida for gas and 9.67:1=1 lambida for e85
But it isnt aproprate to call the e85 mixture more rich because they are both stoich.



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