needing some advice SR

[Maverick06xx]

Alright so I have a fully built 9:1comp redtop sr20det into s14. I just got the car tuned and got the car home by trailer to make some repairs etc. Finally got some things buttoned up and went for a drive. I have prosport gauges for oil temp, oil pressure, water temp. Now I went for a drive for about 10 mins, no hard drive maybe boost one gear and cruise on the highway to get off and turn around. I noticed my water temp got to 220 and my oil temp bounced from 260 to 300. I borrowed a friends milwaukee temp gun and let the car run after it cooled off some time and the top of radiator reads 150 and front of the condenser reads 175 to 180. Oil temp reads 165 so I ruled out my oil temp sensor on the pan must be reading wrong but I'm mostly focused on my water temp. I have ISR dual fans with shroud, 50 coolant(green) 50 distilled water and half a bottle of water wetter. When my fans kick on they stay on and never turned off. I'm running an Se sentra thermostat, my question to others is what's a good coolant temp I should be running at and how else can I get this too cool off. Any help is welcomed and helpful please.

[Maverick06xx]

anyone with built SR having cooling issues and what thermostat is everyone running

[Reyes_]

oem fan shroud/clutch fan over anything


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[Maverick06xx]

Originally Posted by Reyes_

oem fan shroud/clutch fan over anything


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why? explain please don't just tell someone something is better without an explanation.

[Maverick06xx]

anyone else I know someone here has some sound advice.

BTW what I've done so far is, put prestone chemical in the coolant and let run for 20 mins. Drain coolant and ran water through to make sure all coolant was clear and out.
put in 50 distilled water and 50 green coolant and half a bottle of water wetter. removed the coolant bleeder bolt and watch coolant pour out and put bolt back on. After that I use the yellow funnel kit and let run till all air bubbles came out. Make sure heater was on full blast and it was blowing hot, put cap on and went for a drive. That day wasn't very hot like others and drove for about 20 mins and temps were 180 190. Highway stayed there between 180 195. When I got off the exit ramp and pulled into gas station I lifted the hood to check for leaks and use the tool to read top of radiator was 176 the front of condenser was 202 and thermostat hose area was like 195. While sitting there my gauge got to like 210 215 but its never went higher then 220 at a point because I shut it down. This is all while I have two electric fans on they seem to stay on also. Also I have a Nissan sentra thermostat and they are rated at 80 Celsius which converts to 176 while stock sr20det is rated at 76.5 which converts to 169.

[LayNLow]

I always ran into issues using electric fans, the factory clutch fan and shroud are king for airflow, not to mention no worrying about wiring issues.

I think ~180-190's are a decent operating temp at cruise. Just looks like idling/stopped are where you are heating up. Most likely because the fans cant pull enough air in. But a few things:

What kind of radiator do you have?

Did you put the jiggle valve at the top? Also why use s sentra thermostat? Get a stock one.

May want to adjust your coolant ratio for less green coolant since you don't live in the north.

This is assuming that you don't have any head gasket leaks into the coolant passages.

[TheRealSy90]

Just want to throw this into the mix, normal operating temperature of an sr20 is right around 190°F as far as I know. Personally I always liked mine to run a little cooler and never took it over 210°F.


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[RalliartRsX]

I wouldn't trust ISR fans for anything. SPAL or OEM clutch fan/shroud.....

Operating temp 190-205 for SR.

Good luck

[jedi03]

i ran (on my last setup) Altima e-fans with DCC fan controller (iirc turns on at 190-200) stock thermostat, 50/50 green coolant, koyo dual core radiator...fans didn't turn off till i let it idle for quite some time after a drive...ran usually around 210...

[Maverick06xx]

Originally Posted by LayNLow

I always ran into issues using electric fans, the factory clutch fan and shroud are king for airflow, not to mention no worrying about wiring issues.

I think ~180-190's are a decent operating temp at cruise. Just looks like idling/stopped are where you are heating up. Most likely because the fans cant pull enough air in. But a few things:

What kind of radiator do you have?

Did you put the jiggle valve at the top? Also why use s sentra thermostat? Get a stock one.

May want to adjust your coolant ratio for less green coolant since you don't live in the north.

This is assuming that you don't have any head gasket leaks into the coolant passages.

I'm not sure what a jiggle valve is, however i have the electric thermostatic switch with probe, the probe is atop of radiator. Im sure i font have an head gasket issue the motor is built and dyno'd and has maybe 10 to 30 miles max on the motor. No oil or coolant mixed at all i tsn into that with last motor due to head bolts being loose.

Im running a koyo aluminum radiator, isr fan shroud with dual fans.

Only reason i got the sentra thermostat was because i didnt know the ka and sr was the same i just found that out now and the thermostat was installed last year. The sentra thermostat opens at 180F factory opens at 169F i bought an isr but realize it opens too early as 140F.

[Maverick06xx]

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

Just want to throw this into the mix, normal operating temperature of an sr20 is right around 190°F as far as I know. Personally I always liked mine to run a little cooler and never took it over 210°F.


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I may try it.

[Maverick06xx]

Originally Posted by jedi03

i ran (on my last setup) Altima e-fans with DCC fan controller (iirc turns on at 190-200) stock thermostat, 50/50 green coolant, koyo dual core radiator...fans didn't turn off till i let it idle for quite some time after a drive...ran usually around 210...

My fans dont turn off till after i turn my car off and it takes a while before they shut off. The dual fans and shroud is a cleaner setup and easier to work one without the big bulky stock shroud. I'm sure someone here is cooling great with dual aftermarket fans. If thats my problem ill most likely have to buy a new radiator, i have an s14 car with s13 radiator and not sure if stock sr should would bolt to the radiator....any you guys know if it will?

[LayNLow]

Originally Posted by Maverick06xx

I'm not sure what a jiggle valve is, however i have the electric thermostatic switch with probe, the probe is atop of radiator. Im sure i font have an head gasket issue the motor is built and dyno'd and has maybe 10 to 30 miles max on the motor. No oil or coolant mixed at all i tsn into that with last motor due to head bolts being loose.

Im running a koyo aluminum radiator, isr fan shroud with dual fans.

Only reason i got the sentra thermostat was because i didnt know the ka and sr was the same i just found that out now and the thermostat was installed last year. The sentra thermostat opens at 180F factory opens at 169F i bought an isr but realize it opens too early as 140F.

The jiggly thing thats on the perimeter of the thermostat, hopefully it was installed with it pointing up. I would kind of assume so, since your cruise temps don't seem to be too out of line.

I honestly thing it's the fans doing you in. What is the CFM of them?

[Kingtal0n]

1. Distilled water is safe to drink
only use distilled water until the engine has been fully tested
-for many reasons: so it can be spilled anywhere (very useful), so it is cheap to replace, so you can see how filthy it really is, many tracks require 100% water only also

2. Coolant temps:
Cruising Coolant near 200-215*F with oil temp 200-215* is optimal fuel economy
Tracking/racing with coolant near 178*F with oil temp ~205-212*F is for fuel safety
Idle in traffic 210*F coolant with 140*F oil Is helping warm the oil up
Idle in traffic 175-185*F coolant with 205-215*F oil temp is ideal for headroom

-notice the goal is to move oil temp to 200-215*F as quickly as possible (to thin the oil out properly before racing) And then drop the coolant down to ~180*F for cooler intake air pathway parts and increased headroom for temp rise.
The rate of coolant temperature increase/rise is dependent on:
-amount of power the engine is making (at that moment)
-efficiency of radiator/fan to reject heat
-capacity of cooling system

So,
If engine makes alot of power, the temp will rise faster, at that instant, especially if low capacity system
e.g. 'lots' of 180*F water has more heat capacity than 'a small amount' of 180*F water, to resist temperature change when energy is input

If have a poor fan/radiator/shroud setup, the temp will rise faster, all the time, it may even uncontrollably increase.

The way to test system is firstly at idle,
Run the engine idle and see how long it takes to warm the entire contents of radiator up with no fan running.
SR20 with typical aluminum radiator should take at least 10-20 minutes to do this when started from 80*F.
The way the system works is,
1. the thermostat initially shut is constantly checking the temp of the water in the engine.
2. The engine water does not flow into the radiator while the thermostat is shut. So it warms up very fast.
3. After just ~1 minute or so, the engine water should be nearly hot enough to cause thermostat to open (180*F?) Fans are set 188-195 so they are still off when the thermostat opens.
4. Thermostat opens now 180*F for example, and some water is exchanged between the thermostat and radiator.
5. Because the water taken into the engine from the radiator is only 80*F, it cools the thermostat/engine rapidly and the thermostat shuts again.
6. Only a little bit of hot water was ejected into the radiator from #5. When this happens, the top of aluminum radiator will suddenly get hot. If you have been standing there for the entire minute waiting for this event, feeling the sudden change in temp of upper radiator tank is a sure sign the thermostat has opened a little and pushed some hot water out of the engine.
7. Now the process repeats for ~10 minutes. A little 80*F water flows into the engine, shutting the thermostat again. A little 180*F water flows out of the engine and into the radiator. Gradually the radiator's temperature increases. Soon 90*F water is going into the engine. Then 100*F. Then 150*F. Eventually 169*F water is going into the engine from the radiator, and 179*F water is coming out of the engine, instead of 80*F in and 179*F out.
Note that the higher the water temp is in the radiator, the more often the thermostat is letting water flow into the engine. Until eventually its just open constantly and water is flowing non stop. This same sort of theme takes place in the oil pan where oil in the pan is initially only 80*F and as it flows through the engine might hit 100*F before falling back into the 80*F pan and starting over. The two systems are both cooling the engine and have reservoir capacity which influences the rate of temperature change. High capacity oil systems can keep an engine cold for too long, they require thermostats which just like for coolant, allow the engine's initial supply of oil to warm up without being mixed with a high capacity heat exchanger until necessary.
8. Once the radiator water is thermostat set point and water is flowing non stop, it will continue to rise because the fans are not on yet. If the cooling system is sufficiently large, and engine output is very low (at idle it is) some engines can idle indefinitely with no fan running because heat rejection from the radiator even while just sitting still is enough. So expect that while the engine isn't doing much that the system won't be heating up very fast. Once the fans turn on, they should run for a bit then shut off. The first time they start, then stop, is going to be the easiest. So if they have trouble turning off from the start, the system is in big trouble. Once the entire car is hot, the engine bay, the metal of the car itself, the hood, insulations all around, the hot exhaust and hot intake and hot everything, the hot radiator that if you touch burns your skin right away. All of that heat is bring thrown around in there, and it needs a really really good fan, and a well thought out pathway for airflow, if the engine is going to make some serious power.

woof

[Maverick06xx]

Originally Posted by LayNLow

The jiggly thing thats on the perimeter of the thermostat, hopefully it was installed with it pointing up. I would kind of assume so, since your cruise temps don't seem to be too out of line.

I honestly thing it's the fans doing you in. What is the CFM of them?

I think its upward i installed it last year and just now getting the car tunned and drive down the street and back.

[Maverick06xx]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

1. Distilled water is safe to drink
only use distilled water until the engine has been fully tested
-for many reasons: so it can be spilled anywhere (very useful), so it is cheap to replace, so you can see how filthy it really is, many tracks require 100% water only also

2. Coolant temps:
Cruising Coolant near 200-215*F with oil temp 200-215* is optimal fuel economy
Tracking/racing with coolant near 178*F with oil temp ~205-212*F is for fuel safety
Idle in traffic 210*F coolant with 140*F oil Is helping warm the oil up
Idle in traffic 175-185*F coolant with 205-215*F oil temp is ideal for headroom

-notice the goal is to move oil temp to 200-215*F as quickly as possible (to thin the oil out properly before racing) And then drop the coolant down to ~180*F for cooler intake air pathway parts and increased headroom for temp rise.
The rate of coolant temperature increase/rise is dependent on:
-amount of power the engine is making (at that moment)
-efficiency of radiator/fan to reject heat
-capacity of cooling system

So,
If engine makes alot of power, the temp will rise faster, at that instant, especially if low capacity system
e.g. 'lots' of 180*F water has more heat capacity than 'a small amount' of 180*F water, to resist temperature change when energy is input

If have a poor fan/radiator/shroud setup, the temp will rise faster, all the time, it may even uncontrollably increase.

The way to test system is firstly at idle,
Run the engine idle and see how long it takes to warm the entire contents of radiator up with no fan running.
SR20 with typical aluminum radiator should take at least 10-20 minutes to do this when started from 80*F.
The way the system works is,
1. the thermostat initially shut is constantly checking the temp of the water in the engine.
2. The engine water does not flow into the radiator while the thermostat is shut. So it warms up very fast.
3. After just ~1 minute or so, the engine water should be nearly hot enough to cause thermostat to open (180*F?) Fans are set 188-195 so they are still off when the thermostat opens.
4. Thermostat opens now 180*F for example, and some water is exchanged between the thermostat and radiator.
5. Because the water taken into the engine from the radiator is only 80*F, it cools the thermostat/engine rapidly and the thermostat shuts again.
6. Only a little bit of hot water was ejected into the radiator from #5. When this happens, the top of aluminum radiator will suddenly get hot. If you have been standing there for the entire minute waiting for this event, feeling the sudden change in temp of upper radiator tank is a sure sign the thermostat has opened a little and pushed some hot water out of the engine.
7. Now the process repeats for ~10 minutes. A little 80*F water flows into the engine, shutting the thermostat again. A little 180*F water flows out of the engine and into the radiator. Gradually the radiator's temperature increases. Soon 90*F water is going into the engine. Then 100*F. Then 150*F. Eventually 169*F water is going into the engine from the radiator, and 179*F water is coming out of the engine, instead of 80*F in and 179*F out.
Note that the higher the water temp is in the radiator, the more often the thermostat is letting water flow into the engine. Until eventually its just open constantly and water is flowing non stop. This same sort of theme takes place in the oil pan where oil in the pan is initially only 80*F and as it flows through the engine might hit 100*F before falling back into the 80*F pan and starting over. The two systems are both cooling the engine and have reservoir capacity which influences the rate of temperature change. High capacity oil systems can keep an engine cold for too long, they require thermostats which just like for coolant, allow the engine's initial supply of oil to warm up without being mixed with a high capacity heat exchanger until necessary.
8. Once the radiator water is thermostat set point and water is flowing non stop, it will continue to rise because the fans are not on yet. If the cooling system is sufficiently large, and engine output is very low (at idle it is) some engines can idle indefinitely with no fan running because heat rejection from the radiator even while just sitting still is enough. So expect that while the engine isn't doing much that the system won't be heating up very fast. Once the fans turn on, they should run for a bit then shut off. The first time they start, then stop, is going to be the easiest. So if they have trouble turning off from the start, the system is in big trouble. Once the entire car is hot, the engine bay, the metal of the car itself, the hood, insulations all around, the hot exhaust and hot intake and hot everything, the hot radiator that if you touch burns your skin right away. All of that heat is bring thrown around in there, and it needs a really really good fan, and a well thought out pathway for airflow, if the engine is going to make some serious power.

woof

Im not exactly sure what you are saying there was a lot you said that i dont understand. My oil temp on my gauge also concerned me too. It was reading from 260 to 300 but when i pointed my millwauke tool to check temps i pointed to oil pan it reads 176. The metal on top of radiator is hot to the touch it doesnt burn also other metals. The car does make a good amount of power with a gt3582r and 19.5 psi. Do you think it could be my fans? The isr doesnt have a listing on what cfm they are but its 80 watts. I thought about replacing them with aome on ebay that are rated for 120 and think they are 1300cfm each or maybe more, but i dot want to keep throwing money at this.

[TheRealSy90]

Those eBay fans probably won’t break 800 cfm. A single AP90 Spal 12” does 1850cfm.


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[Maverick06xx]

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

Those eBay fans probably won’t break 800 cfm. A single AP90 Spal 12” does 1850cfm.


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What fan is that from and out of?

[Green Arrow]

Best advise i can offer to anyone with a sr.....

Go Ka-t...

[jedi03]

the SPAL is a full aftermarket setup...the Altima ones will fit with trimming...iirc the s14 engine offset is a little different than the s13 but if you have s14 mechanical fan and s14 shroud it should work...https://www.amazon.com/Condenser-Radiator-2004-2008-2002-2006-Assembly/dp/B07N7N7ZQS/ref=asc_df_B07N7N7ZQS/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid={creative}&hvpos={adpositio n}&hvnetw=o&hvrand={random}&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt= e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl={devicemodel}&hvlocint=&hvlocph y=&hvtargid=pla-4584482457351279&psc=1

[Maverick06xx]

Originally Posted by jedi03

the SPAL is a full aftermarket setup...the Altima ones will fit with trimming...iirc the s14 engine offset is a little different than the s13 but if you have s14 mechanical fan and s14 shroud it should work...https://www.amazon.com/Condenser-Radiator-2004-2008-2002-2006-Assembly/dp/B07N7N7ZQS/ref=asc_df_B07N7N7ZQS/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid={creative}&hvpos={adpositio n}&hvnetw=o&hvrand={random}&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt= e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl={devicemodel}&hvlocint=&hvlocph y=&hvtargid=pla-4584482457351279&psc=1

So would it be wise to replace both fans with ones that flow more cfm? Ebay has 80 watt ones the flow 2000 each but i was thinking that would cause a high draw.
The ones from isr are 1150 which is onle 2300cfm.

[TheRealSy90]

Just for an example the big bad SPAL fans only pull their 80-90amps at initial startup when they kick on, the draw goes down after they are up to speed. With a good relay setup it should be fine.


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[jedi03]

the ebay ones have thin wiring that melts easily, i would recommend either one like i linked or a good aftermarket one...i know from experience lol...also install a fan controller as always on blocks air at high speeds and a switch is prone to being forgotten about or left off at a bad time...i have also used FAL and loved them but the Altima ones felt like they pushed more air...i would suggest google search some of these as i know the data is out there, don't skimp on this as it could cost you a whole engine if not more

[RalliartRsX]

........Here to see if you ditched the EbAy/ISR fan.

No??

Then good luck...

Radiator fan that actually work, will only come on for a short time. My twin 12" Spals will come on for 6-15 secs if car temp is 205-210 if sitting in traffic depending on outside temp (they flow close to 2000CFM....a PIECE!). Cools down to 185 and done.

Also, please check on EbAY fan ratings. It seems the way they come up with 2000CFm is some black magic and unicorn juice mixed in. The 20AWG wire they provide with most of their kits will burn up within the first 2 secs of operation......

P.S You cannot measure coolant temp by measuring they radiator surface temp. That's just NOT the way it works, so please do not use that as any basis of measurement. That's how people blow shit up......
Get a proper Temp probe or use a VDO or any other reputable brand. You are literally shooting in the dark now and not providing us with useful info to diagnose considering your methods of measurement. There is a reason a temp prob is placed in CONTACT with the working fluid, not on top of the medium (radiator) the coolant travels through. The whole point of a heat exchanger is just that. Transfer heat from one medium to another. So chances are the radiator external temps are several degrees higher than the working fluid (coolant).

[Maverick06xx]

Originally Posted by jedi03

the ebay ones have thin wiring that melts easily, i would recommend either one like i linked or a good aftermarket one...i know from experience lol...also install a fan controller as always on blocks air at high speeds and a switch is prone to being forgotten about or left off at a bad time...i have also used FAL and loved them but the Altima ones felt like they pushed more air...i would suggest google search some of these as i know the data is out there, don't skimp on this as it could cost you a whole engine if not more

I ungraded the wiring before i installed the fans for sure didnt use stock wiring that came with them.

[Maverick06xx]

Originally Posted by RalliartRsX

........Here to see if you ditched the EbAy/ISR fan.

No??

Then good luck...

Radiator fan that actually work, will only come on for a short time. My twin 12" Spals will come on for 6-15 secs if car temp is 205-210 if sitting in traffic depending on outside temp (they flow close to 2000CFM....a PIECE!). Cools down to 185 and done.

Also, please check on EbAY fan ratings. It seems the way they come up with 2000CFm is some black magic and unicorn juice mixed in. The 20AWG wire they provide with most of their kits will burn up within the first 2 secs of operation......

P.S You cannot measure coolant temp by measuring they radiator surface temp. That's just NOT the way it works, so please do not use that as any basis of measurement. That's how people blow shit up......
Get a proper Temp probe or use a VDO or any other reputable brand. You are literally shooting in the dark now and not providing us with useful info to diagnose considering your methods of measurement. There is a reason a temp prob is placed in CONTACT with the working fluid, not on top of the medium (radiator) the coolant travels through. The whole point of a heat exchanger is just that. Transfer heat from one medium to another. So chances are the radiator external temps are several degrees higher than the working fluid (coolant).

Thanks for your input, as far a measurement of temps, i listed all the areas (top of radiator, front of condenser, lower radiator hose thats attached to the thermostat inlet pipe) i point the tool to get those reading temps i mentioned above posts. My water temp sensor is in the top radiator hose. P2M of phase 2 motor sells a upper radiator hose that goes to radiator to the water neck, in the middle of that hose is where my water temp sensor is. I would like to have an water neck from the s14 sr because is has the bleeder screw and a place for a water temp sensor. Im still also trying to fix my gauge clusetet too. It goes from cold to hot in about 5 to 7 minutes of idle while my gauges read 140. I replaced the smaller one wire sensor from sr to a ka one and still does the samething. I have a spare sr sensor and a spare sensor that goes to ecu also but havent switch to test it. Could you link me to the twin spals you have and will they fit my fan shroud? Again thanks for your info and continue with more info.

[Mikester]

Hey man,

Glad you are zeroing in on some potential solutions. I also have a fully built SR with S13, but I run the GKTech clutch fan with OEM shroud. You are 100% correct that it makes for a crowded engine bay in terms of maintainability... but I will tell you, it pulls mega-air and is worth the headache of occasionally having to pull the shroud. Anyhoo, I can't help but wonder if that (Sentra I think?) thermostat is maybe at least part of your issue. A stock KA/SR thermostat is a cheap and relatively easy part to change, and with a built engine, it may be worth the peace of mind to know that you have the correct thermostat. As for electric fans, I can not comment, except that they definitely make better space to work and nicer throttle response. With the upgraded radiator and electric fans, You could always try a Nismo thermostat to help keep the temps down. Either way, best of luck getting this fixed.

Mike

[Maverick06xx]

Originally Posted by Mikester

Hey man,

Glad you are zeroing in on some potential solutions. I also have a fully built SR with S13, but I run the GKTech clutch fan with OEM shroud. You are 100% correct that it makes for a crowded engine bay in terms of maintainability... but I will tell you, it pulls mega-air and is worth the headache of occasionally having to pull the shroud. Anyhoo, I can't help but wonder if that (Sentra I think?) thermostat is maybe at least part of your issue. A stock KA/SR thermostat is a cheap and relatively easy part to change, and with a built engine, it may be worth the peace of mind to know that you have the correct thermostat. As for electric fans, I can not comment, except that they definitely make better space to work and nicer throttle response. With the upgraded radiator and electric fans, You could always try a Nismo thermostat to help keep the temps down. Either way, best of luck getting this fixed.

Mike

Hey mike, thanks for the advie, question i have a s14 car with s13 radiator what shroud and fan do i need? One from s13 car to fit my s13 radiator or s14 car?

[Kingtal0n]

I used these fans successfully in turbo V8 swap.

I think it can handle SR

One of the main things is the shroud around the fan. The area between fan and radiator, has to be fairly air tight to work well. Especially for dense radiators with condensers and intercoolers in front of them.
To do this cost effective, I take junkyard flexible heat barrier materials and sort of wrap it around the shroud/radiator to close the space.

[Maverick06xx]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

I used these fans successfully in turbo V8 swap.

I think it can handle SR

One of the main things is the shroud around the fan. The area between fan and radiator, has to be fairly air tight to work well. Especially for dense radiators with condensers and intercoolers in front of them.
To do this cost effective, I take junkyard flexible heat barrier materials and sort of wrap it around the shroud/radiator to close the space.

Yea ive heart that too, but im thinking the stock setup may be my best bet. Im trying to see what i need since i have s14 car with s13 radiator with my sr. Do i need an s14 shoulr or s13? Also what fan and clutch would i need?