north korea bluffing or not?

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by fliprayzin240sx

Matej: Far from it. China's the one thats actually reigning in NK. Why you ask? Do you think they really wanna go to war with the US? Considering we owe them roughly $16 TRILLION, war would let us get away with starting on a clean slate. Would they put up a decent fight? Yes, since we dont really have a strong foothold in WESPAC anymore. It wouldnt be hard for China to knock our bases out in Korea and Japan, maybe even take out the 7th Navy Carrier Fleet. They can also make it hard for the military since they'll more than likely kill our network. But in the long run, they'll get their ass whopped.

Spoken for complete truth. China is winning already on the economic side through currency manipulation. They tie there currency to the U.S. dollar and don't let it float thereby giving them an artificially low cost of manufacturing. If there currency was allowed to float they would not be at such an advantage in the cost of manufacturing.

They do not want a conflict with us though. like Ray says above in the end we would probably win but the outcome of it would be bad for all sides.

I do not fear war with major powers in the world. I fear terrorists getting there hands on low level stuff like dirty bombs and by doing so creating an international incident.

I more likely see something happening between India and Pakistan or a major conflict in the middle east between the Arabs and Israeli's who are both equally crazy in my opinion. LOL
Again this is something that would not affect our continent directly but more so indirectly as in the case of them using Nukes on each other and the fallout reaching us.

The thing is Nuclear weapons today are not your mom and dads atom bombs.
They are way more powerful and can cause widespread global environmental damage beyond the localized blast. If used multiple times.

Plus all countries and cultures I have listed above are willing to do this if push comes to shove. They have not reached the point of realization that the United States, Europe, Russia and China have.

[lewisfk]

Not so fast, we can win the sea war do to the fact we have more of everything! The land offensive is the problem, we would have to draft if it becomes a land war. As long as we control the sea China is fucked, plus you know Britain is going to jump in with U.S.


New Navy Railgun Test Fire - YouTube

[OrangeVirus1]

Originally Posted by lewisfk

Not so fast, we can win the sea war do to the fact we have more of everything! The land offensive is the problem, we would have to draft if it becomes a land war. As long as we control the sea China is fucked, plus you know Britain is going to jump in with U.S.


New Navy Railgun Test Fire - YouTube

This would only be if we were dumb enough to fight them on their land.. oh wait.. we always do that.


Also we don't owe 16 trills to China. If you look at who we owe what, We actually owe money all over the place.
US debt tops $16 trillion: So who do we owe most of that money to? | Fox News

"Fully two-thirds of the national debt is owed to the U.S. government, American investors and future retirees, through the Social Security Trust Fund and pension plans for civil service workers and military personnel. China, it turns out, holds less than 8 percent of the money our government has borrowed over the years."

[lewisfk]

^^ Sorry Dude but thats not true!

You cannot quote a study from Fox because they dont care about facts. The lack of revenue is the problem, followed by medicare, and Jack asses who are allowed to hide their money in offshore accounts!

You can't rage war without hoeing yourself out! Thats been the U.S. strategy for the past 10 years.


http://www.treasury.gov/resource-cen...tialEcon12.jpg




http://www.treasury.gov/resource-cen...tialEcon11.jpg

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by lewisfk

^^ Sorry Dude but thats not true!

You cannot quote a study from Fox because they dont care about facts. The lack of revenue is the problem, followed by medicare, and Jack asses who are allowed to hide their money in offshore accounts!

You can't rage war without hoeing yourself out! Thats been the U.S. strategy for the past 10 years.


http://www.treasury.gov/resource-cen...tialEcon12.jpg




http://www.treasury.gov/resource-cen...tialEcon11.jpg

In sense this statement is rather true. WWII was what pulled this country out of the depression and it did because we built arms i.e. planes, ships,tanks, guns etc... like they were going out of style and sold them to all our allies.

The country that won the hoeing out game though was the Swiss in WWII who remained neutral but sold arms to both sides.

Though like I said earlier a direct physical war with China? Not gonna happen. A conflict with someone they support? That could happen again and remember China backed North Korea in the Korean war against us and the South. The difference today is China has so much at stake financially with us trade wise they are less likely to let it happen.

[BossHogg]

I have to say I agree with drift freaq. I fear no major power. Once a foreign power makes it to our shore then I would get a little "alarmed". BUT I believe the American citizen will unleash a force greater than the opposing force would ever expect. We are armed to the teeth. While we may have our own problems within our country, we will be damned if another fucking country is going to come take our shit. We will band together, eliminate the problem, then probably go right back to our stubborn ass ways.

I would fear our own self destruction, before another country. We may take a few hits of mass destruction but that's just the nature of the beast.

[AFSil80]

^^^ Agreed.

For those of you foolish enough to think that dropping leaflets is our most effective form of propaganda...



Get with the times.

[TougeLove]

lets blow them all up. i dont care if everyone dies over there. spoils of war.

[fliprayzin240sx]

Originally Posted by lewisfk

Not so fast, we can win the sea war do to the fact we have more of everything! The land offensive is the problem, we would have to draft if it becomes a land war. As long as we control the sea China is fucked, plus you know Britain is going to jump in with U.S.


New Navy Railgun Test Fire - YouTube

Well, ground war will probably not happen. Why would be do something so stupid as give them the fucking advantage. Almost 3M standing army, another 800k in the reserves, then dont forget the roughly 10M civilians that can easily be drafted into the army if needed. No technological advantage will over come those numbers, unless we just bomb the living crap out of them back to the stone age. But then, there's still millions of them who will throw rocks at us.

Originally Posted by drift freaq

In sense this statement is rather true. WWII was what pulled this country out of the depression and it did because we built arms i.e. planes, ships,tanks, guns etc... like they were going out of style and sold them to all our allies.

The country that won the hoeing out game though was the Swiss in WWII who remained neutral but sold arms to both sides.

Though like I said earlier a direct physical war with China? Not gonna happen. A conflict with someone they support? That could happen again and remember China backed North Korea in the Korean war against us and the South. The difference today is China has so much at stake financially with us trade wise they are less likely to it happen.

The irony of it is WWII got us out of depression, now GWOT is what got us into the doo-doo.

[BoostSlideWayz]

Personally even though most of the times they have either failed or bluffed an attack.. No matter what im going to take it seriously, any time we are threatened in the way they do to us its not something to just dust off like its nothing ...

And plus after seeing that movie red dawn i think its a possibility.. i do believe that if anything does happen we will fuck em up to protect the country. I still also think having some sort of weapon and ammunition is piece of mind in a sense that if anything were to happen on our soil youll atleast go out fighting.

[SLiDe_WaYz]

Originally Posted by BoostSlideWayz

Personally even though most of the times they have either failed or bluffed an attack.. No matter what im going to take it seriously, any time we are threatened in the way they do to us its not something to just dust off like its nothing ...

And plus after seeing that movie red dawn i think its a possibility.. i do believe that if anything does happen we will fuck em up to protect the country. I still also think having some sort of weapon and ammunition is piece of mind in a sense that if anything were to happen on our soil youll atleast go out fighting.

Red Dawn... Olympus has Fallen. Both if you honestly think about it can happen. Might be just a movie for entertainment purposes but I honestly believe that it could happen, possibly in the near future. What is the US going to do if China and Russia side with N. Korea?

We might as well start looking at building bio domes on the moon because earth will be a wasteland.

[dudermagee]

Originally Posted by lewisfk

Not so fast, we can win the sea war do to the fact we have more of everything! The land offensive is the problem, we would have to draft if it becomes a land war. As long as we control the sea China is fucked, plus you know Britain is going to jump in with U.S.


New Navy Railgun Test Fire - YouTube

But what if China developed a weapon specifically to take out our sea going vessels....

China has carrier-killer missile, U.S. admiral says - Washington Times

China’s “Carrier Killer”: The DF-21D | James Holmes – The Naval Diplomat

Originally Posted by lewisfk

^^ Sorry Dude but thats not true!

You cannot quote a study from Fox because they dont care about facts. The lack of revenue is the problem, followed by medicare, and Jack asses who are allowed to hide their money in offshore accounts!

You can't rage war without hoeing yourself out! Thats been the U.S. strategy for the past 10 years.


http://www.treasury.gov/resource-cen...tialEcon12.jpg




http://www.treasury.gov/resource-cen...tialEcon11.jpg

You are heavily misinformed.
HowStuffWorks "Top 10 Countries the U.S. Owes Money To"

[dudermagee]

[lewisfk]

^^duder, the links I posted were straight from the U.S. treasury! It highlights the amount we spent in 2010 and what we spent 33 years prior. It brakes down the GDP. Please take a look at the INTAKE VS SPENDING.

Top 10 Countries the U.S. Owes Money To. Cool info but I was commenting about who we owe money to but how the counties money is spent. Many people blame social security for our debt and its not true. Medicare on the other hand is out of control. That's why the President offered a budget to reform medicare and social security.

[dudermagee]

Originally Posted by lewisfk

^^duder, the links I posted were straight from the U.S. treasury! It highlights the amount we spent in 2010 and what we spent 33 years prior. It brakes down the GDP. Please take a look at the INTAKE VS SPENDING.

Top 10 Countries the U.S. Owes Money To. Cool info but I was commenting about who we owe money to but how the counties money is spent. Many people blame social security for our debt and its not true. Medicare on the other hand is out of control. That's why the President offered a budget to reform medicare and social security.

Ah my bad, for some reason I thought you said that China had most of our debt. Because thats what the other guy was talking about.

[Felipe]

Originally Posted by dudermagee

But what if China developed a weapon specifically to take out our sea going vessels....

China has carrier-killer missile, U.S. admiral says - Washington Times

"The new weapon, the “D” version of China’s DF-21 medium-range missile, involves firing the mobile missile into space, returning it into the atmosphere and then maneuvering it to its target"

isnt that what N.K. just did... sending a "test rocket" into space?

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by dudermagee

Ah my bad, for some reason I thought you said that China had most of our debt. Because thats what the other guy was talking about.

I was the other guy who mentioned China and I never said China held most of our debt. Don't put words in my mouth man. I did say China holds a decent portion of debt with us. But its not only that its the fact that they do a shit ton of manufacturing for us. To suddenly take that away would hurt them in the short term.
Seriously you guys talking about China and or Russia getting together really need to study up on Russian and Chinese relationships as well. LOL They do not like each other at all.
As far as you guys talking about us getting into some kind of Nuclear conflict. Well then you need to live each day like its going to be your last. Oh and go on being paranoid because guess what? You can't do much about it so worrying about it is not going to do you much good.

[Juantwo3]

Originally Posted by Felipe

"The new weapon, the “D” version of China’s DF-21 medium-range missile, involves firing the mobile missile into space, returning it into the atmosphere and then maneuvering it to its target"
i
isnt that what N.K. just did... sending a "test rocket" into space?

if space shuttles have a hard time to enter the atmosphere without catching on fire and exploding i can only imagine how a rocket packed with explosives or other heat sensitive matter will hold up.

[Dalton]

The Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI) was proposed by U.S. President Ronald Reagan on March 23, 1983,[1] to use ground-based and space-based systems to protect the United States from attack by strategic nuclear ballistic missiles. The initiative focused on strategic defense rather than the prior strategic offense doctrine of Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD). The Strategic Defense Initiative Organization (SDIO) was set up in 1984 within the United States Department of Defense to oversee the Strategic Defense Initiative.

Also known as the Star Wars program. Look it up. This program is suppose to take down thousands of nuclear missile using x-ray technology. I am not that concerned with the bombs getting in the U.S. if this program is real.

[dudermagee]

Originally Posted by drift freaq

I was the other guy who mentioned China and I never said China held most of our debt. Don't put words in my mouth man. I did say China holds a decent portion of debt with us. But its not only that its the fact that they do a shit ton of manufacturing for us. To suddenly take that away would hurt them in the short term.
Seriously you guys talking about China and or Russia getting together really need to study up on Russian and Chinese relationships as well. LOL They do not like each other at all.
As far as you guys talking about us getting into some kind of Nuclear conflict. Well then you need to live each day like its going to be your last. Oh and go on being paranoid because guess what? You can't do much about it so worrying about it is not going to do you much good.

I was talking about this guy:

Originally Posted by OrangeVirus1

Also we don't owe 16 trills to China. If you look at who we owe what, We actually owe money all over the place.

I think it'd be more likely that Iran would join in a war effort to clear us out of the middle east while we are focusing on N Korea.
China and Russia would be more like silent partners than actively engaging us.
They would only become actively involved if they thought they could take us out with little to no effort. They would provide "secret" aid to N Korea to prolong the war and weaken us further.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by fliprayzin240sx

Far from it. China's the one thats actually reigning in NK. Why you ask? Do you think they really wanna go to war with the US? Considering we owe them roughly $16 TRILLION,.....

I believe this is what is causing the confusion.

[K_style]

I read Korean domestic news everyday.

It seems like, it may have started from bluffing but that fat ass seems to enjoy the tension and attention from everyone else.

N. Korea announced they will fire the missile on 10th local time.

[OrangeVirus1]

North Korea to 'launch missile TOMORROW' after warning foreigners to evacuate South | World | News | Daily Express

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by dudermagee

I was talking about this guy:



I think it'd be more likely that Iran would join in a war effort to clear us out of the middle east while we are focusing on N Korea.
China and Russia would be more like silent partners than actively engaging us.
They would only become actively involved if they thought they could take us out with little to no effort. They would provide "secret" aid to N Korea to prolong the war and weaken us further.

got it but I have to say I don't think Russia is going to side with China when it comes to N Korea. They would support Iran, Though Iran does not even have the weapon N Korea has a weapon but has a dismal delivery system.
Iran is on the doorstep of the weapon and only has has short range delivery ability. Plus Iran has a Nuclear neighbor in Israel that would not hesitate to Nuke them out of existence if push came to shove.

So I would not be worrying about Iran beyond the fact that the middle east will take itself out much like Pakistan and India.
Its N korea that is like the lone wolf here. Hence why they posture so much.

Iran wants a weapon because Israel has one. Just like India and Pakistan.

N. Korea is technically an insignificant player in global politics and status in comparison. They have a severe inferiority complex and need to make the world pay attention to them. This is how they do it. The question is does this kid have the grasp on this concept that his father did who knew how to play this Violin. Or his he stupid enough to not know when to stop playing it and go to far.

[redline racer510]

I don't think they are after attention. They have seen what happens to countries without the bomb (Libya,Iraq, Afghanistan etc.) and seek to produce one as a deterrent for war with South Korea and the US. Remember, we placed sanctions that only starve the poor on North Korea and we are currently performing military exercises with large numbers of troops and flying bombers dropping dummy bombs right over the DMZ from North Korea. Remember the cold war when Russia gave Cuba the bomb, did we just sit there and do nothing or was our military on full alert? Seems like a rational response to me. Best thing we can do to deescalate things is through lifting sanctions(because sanctions are an act of war) and diplomacy. Last time I checked we are a democratic country so why haven't we practiced diplomacy?

[fliprayzin240sx]

The thing is, if North Korea chill the fuck out and demilitarize themselves, you'd be surprised how fast South Korea is willing to help them out and get them caught up to the rest of the world. South Koreans don't hate North Koreans (most still has families in North Korea, lots of families got seperated during the war), they hate the ruling family since they're a bunch of fucktards.

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by redline racer510

I don't think they are after attention. They have seen what happens to countries without the bomb (Libya,Iraq, Afghanistan etc.) and seek to produce one as a deterrent for war with South Korea and the US. Remember, we placed sanctions that only starve the poor on North Korea and we are currently performing military exercises with large numbers of troops and flying bombers dropping dummy bombs right over the DMZ from North Korea. Remember the cold war when Russia gave Cuba the bomb, did we just sit there and do nothing or was our military on full alert? Seems like a rational response to me. Best thing we can do to deescalate things is through lifting sanctions(because sanctions are an act of war) and diplomacy. Last time I checked we are a democratic country so why haven't we practiced diplomacy?

First off Russia did not give Cuba the bomb. LOL You really prove you were sleeping during Contemporary American History. Russia placed moveable missile batteries in Cuba controlled by Russians. Cuba did not have control of them. We also did much the same we are doing today with N Korea. Not standing down. Russia removed the missiles with the agreement we would not invade Cuba. The joke is we never actually intended to invade Cuba unless Russia left the missiles there which was an open threat to us.

You talk about drawing down sanctions on N Korea but they have done nothing to warrant drawing those sanctions down. Instead they keep on doing the opposite. Are we supposed to sit there and let them threaten Japan? Who we have a treaty with to protect them if need be? Are we supposed to just disregard that?

Sanctions are not really considered an act of war and if you think they are you need to learn more about acts of war. Oh and please stop mixing up democracy and diplomacy because they are two separate constructs.

Diplomacy is the act of knowing how to talk with other heads of nations and iron out problems it is not tied to Democracy. Non Democratic countries have Diplomats and practice Diplomacy. Fact is Kin Jung Un does not seem to want to listen to Diplomacy.

Of course China just told them to back the fuck down.

I should also add that Diplomacy does not always work and your suggestion of appeasement is the kind of talk that Neville Chamberlein spouted and even tried to do with Hitler. It is what allowed WWII to happen. While they thought he had appeased Hitler by giving him concessions it turned out he just went out and overran Europe and attacked Britain anyways. LOL

Kim Jung Un is a nut case. I do not think he would ever be trustworthy. Again this has nothing to do with us being a democracy. It has to do with dealing with a crazy dictator.

[OrangeVirus1]

Lets all just be honest here, We should just shut up and let North Korea do what they want. They aren't stupid enough to actually Blow anyone up, because I'm sure they don't want to die.

And Also, North Korea has been doing this for years, I still consider that North Korea should be allowed to do anything we Americans do. Bomb tests, Military tests, Nuclear tests.

I mean FFS we Want to control the whole damn world but it just isn't going to happen.
Leave North Korea alone, DON'T buy into all the BS they talk, and completely ignore them...

They remind me of the Westboro Baptist church, the ONLY reason that church still exists is because people get offended, start crap, and acknowledge their existence.

[redline racer510]

Yea… and then China takes exception to it since NK is it’s buffer zone and it leaves the US free to establish permanent bases on China’s border fully encircling them.

What people like you seem to forget, is that NK does not exist in a vacuum. China is one of their allies, and Russia is China’s ally. Then Iran is Russia’s ally and Russia relies on Syria for access to the open ocean for their marine fleets.

Syria and Iran are allies and then you have Pakistan, a nuclear power itself who is an ally of China.

If the US were to strike NK, then China would respond in kind, Russia would come to China’s aid and possibly strike out against all US allies in the region which would include Japan, South Korea, and India, whom the Pakistani’s have hated for centuries.

Then after the conflict got good and warmed up, Russia would throw in it’s chips on China’s side along with Pakistan, Iran, Syria and Australia. Yes, Australia. They are trading partners with China now.

What you would end up with is a regional conflict quickly escalating into WW3 in the space of a few days. China and Russia have been chewing at the bit to get a war started since it gives their populations something else to bitch about instead of focusing inward.

And let’s not forget China’s other partners in Latin America. The list of countries the US can call ally is growing thin. How long do you think it would take for all those nuclear capable powers to bring a country that has borrowed more money than has ever existed, spread itself thinner than ancient Rome and spent itself into a hole so deep, daylight is a legend spoken about over campfires?


The US would be crippled from the economic consequences alone not to mention the fact that we don’t have the manpower to fight wars against more than two billion people. They would nuke us until everything from the Great Lakes to the Gulf is glass.

Get a clue. War, especially in this day and age is nothing to cheer for. Let’s see how well you keep that bravado up when they draft your ass to go fight an asymmetric war with a military who doesn’t understand the concept well enough to not get mired in Afghanistan the same way Alexander the Great, Napoleon and the former USSR did.

[OrangeVirus1]

Originally Posted by redline racer510

Yea… and then China takes exception to it since NK is it’s buffer zone and it leaves the US free to establish permanent bases on China’s border fully encircling them.

What people like you seem to forget, is that NK does not exist in a vacuum. China is one of their allies, and Russia is China’s ally. Then Iran is Russia’s ally and Russia relies on Syria for access to the open ocean for their marine fleets.

Syria and Iran are allies and then you have Pakistan, a nuclear power itself who is an ally of China.

If the US were to strike NK, then China would respond in kind, Russia would come to China’s aid and possibly strike out against all US allies in the region which would include Japan, South Korea, and India, whom the Pakistani’s have hated for centuries.

Then after the conflict got good and warmed up, Russia would throw in it’s chips on China’s side along with Pakistan, Iran, Syria and Australia. Yes, Australia. They are trading partners with China now.

What you would end up with is a regional conflict quickly escalating into WW3 in the space of a few days. China and Russia have been chewing at the bit to get a war started since it gives their populations something else to bitch about instead of focusing inward.

And let’s not forget China’s other partners in Latin America. The list of countries the US can call ally is growing thin. How long do you think it would take for all those nuclear capable powers to bring a country that has borrowed more money than has ever existed, spread itself thinner than ancient Rome and spent itself into a hole so deep, daylight is a legend spoken about over campfires?


The US would be crippled from the economic consequences alone not to mention the fact that we don’t have the manpower to fight wars against more than two billion people. They would nuke us until everything from the Great Lakes to the Gulf is glass.

Get a clue. War, especially in this day and age is nothing to cheer for. Let’s see how well you keep that bravado up when they draft your ass to go fight an asymmetric war with a military who doesn’t understand the concept well enough to not get mired in Afghanistan the same way Alexander the Great, Napoleon and the former USSR did.

When they draft my ass haha I just got out of the army, no big deal.