S13 to S14 SR20DET Head Swap:how-to and differences

[slider2828]

You mean TI retainers aren't as good as Normal Retainers? In terms of longevity?

O and what Manifold is that? It looks sexy...

[garagelu]

Originally Posted by slider2828

You mean TI retainers aren't as good as Normal Retainers? In terms of longevity?

O and what Manifold is that? It looks sexy...

Definitely not. The fact is that the rockwell hardness on the Ti retainer is less than the valve spring it is rubbing against. Over time, the Ti will wear.

And my thinking is that the fact is that my car is not my daily driver but I do take it on long distance trips 2 or 3 times during the summer. When I went to college in Michigan, I would drive back home to Alabama with my 240 a few times. So with that, I figured why risk it. With Ti you will have less chance of valve float and maybe 1 or 2 hp here and there but I think there are more disadvantages than advantages in a street car.

It is a DC sports manifold. I know there is a stereotype of DC being cheap and honda guys running all their headers. But, retail before they were discontinued were selling for around 400-500 dollars. I got this on closeout from AEM/DC for 160 dollars. It didn't come with hardware and a brace. I spent maybe 50-60 dollars is materials for bracing, welding and hardware. And comparing to my ebay manifold.....the tubing is twice as thick, the welds are much improved and overall looks pretty high quality.

My ebay manifold brace cracked and I didn't catch it in time which resulted in a cracked manifolds. The IL roads here suck so bad.







And here is a picture of the brace I had to weld on.

[garagelu]

I took some pictures after I finished working for the day yesterday. Everything is pretty much done. I am still waiting on my coldpipe to be done at the welder's. The bottom section is getting cut off and a bead welded where its cut and then there is that section of pipe that people use for the BOV....I am getting that cut off and a plate welded to cover it. I am also still waiting on my braille battery. It's on backorder from tirerack. I would have ordered another odyssey pc680 since it lasted me a solid 3 years but the braille was only about 20 dollars more with more CCA and looks so much better in black. I think all I have left is adjusting my TPS, checking timing, fill with coolant, install coldpipe, and maybe a few other small stuff.







My #4 runner comes about an 1 inch from my ABS brake booster. I just bought some heat wrap to wrap that one section this weekend. Hopefully its enough.







Here is a before the swap picture that I took. I didn't realize how nasty my engine bay looked before.

[yabeet]

Looks beautiful, the DC manifold just looks high quality from afar, looks even better than the tomei manifold which I have. Did ebay knockoffs cause the SR DC manifold to be discontinued?
Good luck upon startup, keep us updated.

[garagelu]

Originally Posted by yabeet

Looks beautiful, the DC manifold just looks high quality from afar, looks even better than the tomei manifold which I have. Did ebay knockoffs cause the SR DC manifold to be discontinued?
Good luck upon startup, keep us updated.

My thinking is the price and the brand was the cause of it being discontinued. For 400 dollars, even if the quality is higher than ebay manifolds, who would pay that for a DC branded manifold. I know I wouldn't. For 400 dollars there are better options out there I guess you could say. Tomei for about 100 dollars more or even a peak performance. I think used HKS manifolds go for around 400 dollars too.

I might need that luck on startup. There are a few things I am worried about on startup but nothing too major I hope. Should be getting my coldpipe monday or tuesday so should be running this coming week. I'll be going to tune most likely week after next so dyno sheets should be posted up when I get them.

[sbanzer123]

looks great. could you post a picture of your coldpipe when you get it back? i was just thinking about doing that yesterday when i was putting my car back together.

[garagelu]

Yea I'll definitely post up pictures. This guy mentioned that he could recreate the welds on that dc manifold so hopefully he does a good job on my coldpipe. I hope he calls me monday. This is pretty much the last thing I need to start the car.

[DCP94]

interesting thread..keep us updated

[garagelu]

So I FINALLY got my coldpipe back. I can't believe how long he took. Its been exactly a week since I gave it to him. He gets my head modification done in a day but can't get some simple cut and welds done. Here is a pretty much final setup picture. I just need to put a vacuum line from the IM to the brake booster line, put the battery in and its ready to start up.....I hope.



While I have been waiting on the coldpipe, I wrapped the section where the runner is so close to the brake booster.


It didn't turn out as clean as I thought. I kinda regret doing this. If I ever buy another s14 coldpipe, I will just weld a block off plate to the end of the bov tube.

[slider2828]

It ain't going to be enough with just heat wrap to block the booster.

Should have cut the runners on the exh manifold to give it a little more play and flex...

Yah damn cold pipe could have been done better.

So how does she run?

[garagelu]

Originally Posted by slider2828

It ain't going to be enough with just heat wrap to block the booster.

Should have cut the runners on the exh manifold to give it a little more play and flex...

Yah damn cold pipe could have been done better.

So how does she run?

Play and flex?....I have no idea what you mean. Do you mean more clearance?

And why do you say heat wrap is not going to be enough. Have you had personal experience with it. Please don't just say it's not going to work and not back your statement up.

[fromxtor]

I can't see your pics at work, but I would also either A. Wrap your BMC reservoir and/or B. Make/ buy a BMC heat shield. They aren't really that expensive to make or buy.

[garagelu]

The master cylinder is the least of my worries. The brake lines are closer to the runners than the BMC is.

I may go to the speed shop and pick up some heat shield to wrap the brake booster with just for double protection.

[slider2828]

Not the runners, ergh... the thing that the runners connect to on the head. The flat piece, dunno whats it called... So its 4 individial runners instead of being all attached to once piece.

Yes that head wrap is not going to be enough, that is for sure... Its the overall heat that the headers will output not just that runner itself.... I would try to block heat from all the way under the break master cylinder to as high as the hood... Just that little piece of wrap is not enough... trust me especially on the track. Heat tends to radiate in every direction. Trust me I ran the stock cast iron manifold and its way far from the top of the hood, but it will melted that black fabricate layer....

[fromxtor]

^^ That would be the flange, you are referring to.

[slider2828]

^^Yeah cut the flange...and Fromxtor... Haven't forgot about hooking you up... still go your addy...

-Ken

[garagelu]

So this weekend I finally was able to get my car up to the dyno and get the car tuned. I made the 7 hour trip up to Detroit at Monkeywrench Racing.

So this is a pretty general mod list:

Garrett 2871r .64
Nismo 740cc injectors
Nismo FPR
Walbro 255
JWT C1 cams and valve springs
Stock s13 bottom end with s14 sr head
ARP studs and Apexi 1.2mm head gasket
Head was decked with about .005 off
Z32 MAF
DC Sports manifold
HKS EVC 6 BC
NA s14 60mm TB
Apexi Power FC

The only difference from my old setup is that I had the BC stage 2 cams, BC valve springs, nismo 555cc injectors, s13 head, different exhaust manifold, and a EVC 5.

I haven't had the best opportunity to drive it hard yet. It's been wet and raining for a past 2-3 days. I did race my friend's ls2 gto after I tuned and it wasn't even close. It had an exhaust and a tune on it and I pulled 4-5 cars on him. I also want to add that I got about 340 miles and that was with about 12-12.5 gallons of gas. My s14 is full interior with spare and I had shitload of tools with me too.

Here is the dyno sheets (the faint dotted line is my old setup with the s13 head and BC cams):

hp against uncorrected torque (corrected number is 352 tq)



hp against boost



Here is a video of my 400hp pull:

Dyno at Monkeywrench-4/18/09 on Vimeo

Here are pics of the 2871r turbo lotus elise that was in the shop. The tuner said it was pushing 360hp and its back in the shop to get it close to 400.

[mindmineral]

this is one of the best threads I have ever seen
thanks to all for your efforts

[red240]

Originally Posted by slider2828

^^Yeah cut the flange...and Fromxtor... Haven't forgot about hooking you up... still go your addy...

-Ken

We used to cut the flange on the stock manifold [turbo]on our starions as they would crack at the runners
After cutting them so they could expand independently they never cracked again
That and a flex section in the down pipe and that should take care of it

[matt11145]

thanks for the link to your thread, this was all the info i needed. by the way, great build and great job on providing all the needed information for anyone else looking to do this. thanks again.

[bmx269]

I know this post is old, but I am trying to get more info on the head modifications for the oil feed. I have blown my S14 SR at Irwindale during the FD Proam Finals, and decided to go the S13 block for added convenience in the future, if any engine problems were to occur at the track. S13 blocks are easy to come by.

All pics of the oil feed setup and or anything you can provide will help. Thanks.

-Trent

[garagelu]

Originally Posted by bmx269

I know this post is old, but I am trying to get more info on the head modifications for the oil feed. I have blown my S14 SR at Irwindale during the FD Proam Finals, and decided to go the S13 block for added convenience in the future, if any engine problems were to occur at the track. S13 blocks are easy to come by.

All pics of the oil feed setup and or anything you can provide will help. Thanks.

-Trent

On the oil pressure source for the timing chain tensioner, all you have to do is take both the s13 and s14 head into the machine shop and tell them to replicate the hole in the s13 head onto the s14 head. Make sure they do it on a bridgeport so they can get it dead on.

And make sure they don't rape you on price. I think I paid 30-40 dollars to do this. After all, they are just drilling a hole. It takes a few minutes to set the position on the brideport but after that, its simple.

And just FYI, my setup is still running stronger than ever and still extremely reliable. The only problem I seem to have is a tiny coolant leak that I haven't tracked down but looks like its coming from under the intake manifold.

[yabeet]

Wow sorry to bump an old thread but congrats on everything going well, dyno vid is pretty bad ass!!

Quick q from you where did you buy your JWT cams? Im trying to find places that will ship to Canada...

[ashmir]

How about ur s13 head swap to s14?successful?i plan to do so,but i wanted to use s13 manifold.

[singlecamslam]

Its obviously succesfull since it says he drove the car 6 hours and made 400hp.

[garagelu]

Originally Posted by ashmir

How about ur s13 head swap to s14?successful?i plan to do so,but i wanted to use s13 manifold.

I never did a s13 head swap to s14 block. But it will definitely work.

My setup has been running strong ever since I did the head swap. I'm actually about to pull the 2871r setup tomorrow and put a full-race twin scroll 3076r setup in. Adding a Greddy intake manifold also.

[supervenom]

Man, how very awesome guys! This thread covers so much info and has so much innovation.

Top 10!

[veloz]

Hey Guys,

Well Thanks to the OP for this thread.

It gave me all the information I needed to try it out on my own and it worked like a charm.

Long Story Short, I had a 90mm Sleeved S13 Block kicking around and I didn't want to use an S13 head.

I guess I'll post pics and junk too when I can.


I only have one question.

Will the vvt/vtc whateeeever it's called still work since it's still receiving oil pressure or in making that relief hole for the Tensioner make it unusable?

Thoughts?

[garagelu]

Originally Posted by veloz

I only have one question.

Will the vvt/vtc whateeeever it's called still work since it's still receiving oil pressure or in making that relief hole for the Tensioner make it unusable?

Thoughts?

VTC will work but you have to change to S14 harness and ECU.

[S14DOOD]

Originally Posted by garagelu

Well I've got a pretty big update here:

This is something I didn't realize till I was starting to install the head. On the s14 head there is a separate oil pressure source coming up from the block and into the timing chain tensioner. It took me a good couple hours of probing holes in the head to figure out how oil is routed in the head. I am still confused about how the VTC solenoid works. It looks like there is a oil passage going from the solenoid up through the cam bridge, through the cam and cam bolt and into the VTC sprocket. But how does the solenoid regulate oil pressure is what I am wondering. Anyone have any input on this? I don't know that it will really matter in my situation. I am thinking that as long as I have oil going to the tensioner then I am ok.

On the s13 it get oil pressure to the tensioner from a hole coming from the front left head stud hole. Here is a picture of the s13 oil pressure hole location.



On the s14 head, it has the same hole in the head stud hole but that supplies oil pressure to the VTC solenoid. This poses a problem because if I don't modify the head then I will have no oil pressure to the tensioner.

So here is some info for anyone in the future who decides to attempt this. I went to several machine shops and some said they could do it. The shop I had my head decked quoted me 150 dollars to drill a hole. Another shop said 100. Both said they couldn't get to it for at least a week. I decided to take it to a place nearby called Midwest Chassis and Performance. The shop is built behind the owner's house. It sounds shady but this guy is recommended by everyone in town. I take it to him and he says he has a bridgeport to do it and it will be 30 dollars. I am in disbelief. Then I tell him that I jb welded the other hole and he said he will use a threaded plug to plug it for 20 dollars. And on top of that it only took him 1 day to do it. I am thoroughly impressed. Here are some pics:





What great about the plug is it is removable. If I ever decide to go to an s14 block I have the option of plugging the hole in the block or removing the plug and running it that way.

So when looking for a shop to do this, make sure they have a bridgeport. Also bring them both heads so they can drill the same location as the s13 head. And don't be like me and find out about this till I am about to install the head.

Today, the head is bolted and torqued down, head assembled, cams installed, timing all set. Tomorrow will be rewiring iacv, installing turbo, running vacuum and fuels lines, and other misc tasks. Should be 2 or 3 more days to get this thing running. Can't wait.....the weather is so nice!!!

So the hole above the bottom hole is the one you had drilled to get oil to the tensioner? Also there is a oil hole on the front side what is that for?