Enough Ghosn?

[Gnnr]

So many statements hit right on the mark in this thread.

From my US perspective, Nissan has lost its passion. Its soul and character.

You don't have to make sports cars, be into racing and make enthusiast vehicles to have soul and passion. It's not a brand that makes fun vehicles or has fun.

Nissan no longer has a strong presence or identity as it used to. If the identity is trying to take on is that of the other Japanese makers it's not even close. Frankly, reliability seems to be shit compared to the other big 2 in Japan.

I'm in the market for a new car and I'm not even stepping foot in a Nissan dealership, even Infiniti seems to have an overinflated perception of itself with the ridiculous prices they're asking (more than Lexus, Mercedes and BMW in some cases) so they can GTFO.

[BossHogg]

Originally Posted by drift freaq

Dare I say it King does have some valid points after his initial post. While I don't agree that Ghosn is the problem at Nissan. If there is actually a problem. Fact is like others have already stated Ghosns turn around of Nissan was incredible.
Fact is though some of us may think Nissan has ignored the enthusiasts under Ghosns tenure fact is he was responsible for bringing the GTR here. While you may not like it there are a lot of GTR enthusiasts that were and are quite happy about that.
He also managed to resurrect the Z car with the 350 which actually again made the Z enthusiasts happy as they sold quite well.
Sure one could call the 370 a miscue its almost there but not quite. Though its not as bad as some would have us believe.
One could say they have produced some damn fugly cars in the last few years. Yet they manage to sell a shit ton.
Consumer reports? Fuck consumer reports. They ripped the new Q50 a new asshole and the car is pretty damn dope for its product segment. Sebastian Vettel had a hand in the road test engineering of it. Though consumer reports painted it out like a pile of shit . I don't always trust consumer reports, I think they have an agenda to tow.
I would take a JD powers rating over consumer reports any day because JD powers actually polls owners , shops and what not.
I honestly think in light of recent developments its a little early to call crap on Nissan's supposed efforts.
Give it a little more time before calling for the head of the man that actually saved Nissan from all out extinction.

Agree, I like all of those cars. They may be bigger and heavier than what we want, but I think they are all pleasing aesthetically and setup wise. But I am talking in a aftermarket kind of way to. As if I bought any of those cars, modifications would for sure be in mind. Less so cosmetically on the GTR, more so with 350/370. I like the q50 to. I remember the first time I saw one I was like damn that thing looks good. Didn't even know what it was till I read the badge. What made it even cooler was a white haired 60-70 year old woman got out of it. Grandma with style, you know she picks up the men at bingo night.

Originally Posted by mechanicalmoron

I do like 90's toyotas, too. I think most cars after the turn of this century got really ugly, but toyota beats nissan. I think most 90's japanese cars where really nicely designed, nicely build, and generally spot on what they should be.

I'm just making an observation about how people approach nissans nowadays. I'd admit it doesn't apply to the Z or GTR, but those are cars to be shown off, regardless of sales. Like sure, there's enthusiasts who are excited about a 100k car.... but most of them are sure as hell not buying one. The GTR means nothing to me because it's so distant, price-wise, that I doubt I'll ever even sit in one. Even if I had the money it's beyond frivolous.

Agree totally. The 90's are just great. But I also wonder if some of us in the mid-late 20's and 30's are partial to these cars because that is what we kind of grew up to wanting and seeing high end tuners build on etc. If I won the lottery I would still love a r32 gtr, 22b impreza, sw20 mr2 and FD rx-7. The only car I do not care for would be the supra. I just think it is one ugly car. Like a catfish with a spoiler on the back. Nothing against the car, just not my personal taste.

Originally Posted by drift freaq

Nissan indeed always had a pretty good interest in motorsports competition. Though I think Nissan NA kinda fell out of the factory backed stuff starting in the early 90's. Outside of the SCORE off road trucks they really did not support factory backed sports car efforts after that. I think if they do bring out new cars it would be quite wise for them to get them into motorsports with factory backed efforts. It did wonders for the company here in the 70's and 80's.

Outside of the U.S. has always seemed to be a different story. BTCC, GT racing etc... It seems Nissan Japan and Nissan UK are much more in touch with the fact that Motorsports is still important.
In fact I could go as far as making this observation relating to your original post. The problem does not lie in Ghosn the problem does and always has been with Nissan NA since the early 90's. The stateside branch of the company has grown quite timid in this department and thereby pushing a non sports car agenda.
A lot of the design cues ridiculed actually came out of the San Diego based design department.
Perhaps we will see a much more relevant to Z car heritage Z car design because its supposedly coming from Japan this time. As far as the IDX goes I am not sure if that was Japan or San Diego.

Agree. I also wonder if that has something to do with our country being so vast and big. The demographic is just spread way the hell out. We cant just build a few tracks and everyone be able to travel to them. We have to break it down regionally and there has to be tracks in each area. Which is just more money etc.

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

And nothing says Japanese car more than entry-mid level rwd sports coupes and teeny tiny FWD sporty hatches.

Nissan need a spriritual Sentra SE-R and 240Z/S-Chassis revival.

I like that new nismo sentra concept thing. Probably the first fwd car that got my attention in a sporty way. Looked good.

[kingkilburn]

When it comes to motorsports in America everyone seems to leave the big money to Nascar even though there isn't much of a car buying grassroots for it.

[atom]

Originally Posted by simmode1

This. This right here.

This is way Nissan needs the IDX and not any of those S16 concepts that have been flying around for the past 7 years.

I guess the irony is the IDX was designed in Europe and it's lead designer was a Brit, so the IDX is not really Japanese at all. It's a European interpretation of what Japanese cars used to be, not necessarily what they are at present. So if Nissan's future hinges on it keeping it's "Japanese-ness" (whatever that term even means), the IDX is probably not that car.

Originally Posted by Gnnr

From my US perspective, Nissan has lost its passion. Its soul and character.

You don't have to make sports cars, be into racing and make enthusiast vehicles to have soul and passion. It's not a brand that makes fun vehicles or has fun.

Nissan no longer has a strong presence or identity as it used to.

Nissan hasn't had a unique identity since they were on the brink of failure. And I don't think they really care. It's not exactly like strong brand identity is helping Mazda any. Nissan sold 24k Altima's in November alone. That was more than Mazda's entire product line in the same period.

[Gnnr]

Originally Posted by atom

Nissan hasn't had a unique identity since they were on the brink of failure. And I don't think they really care. It's not exactly like strong brand identity is helping Mazda any. Nissan sold 24k Altima's in November alone. That was more than Mazda's entire product line in the same period.

Mazda reinvented itself as a fun brand when they started with the zoom-zoom marketing way back when. The Miata is still a fun roadster to drive. The identity they push is one of fun driver's cars and to me it sticks.



My perception of Mazda is better than that of Nissan's.

[kingkilburn]

Where the designer was born or lives is of little relevance. The style of the design is what is important and the IDx clearly draws heavily from the 60s-70s Nissan designs.

[exitspeed]

Originally Posted by Gnnr

Mazda reinvented itself as a fun brand when they started with the zoom-zoom marketing way back when. The Miata is still a fun roadster to drive. The identity they push is one of fun driver's cars and to me it sticks.



My perception of Mazda is better than that of Nissan's.

Mazda also has a fraction of models that Nissan has AND Mazda has been in pretty rough shape financially. Their joint venture with Ford is over and that really hurts them. Also, are you going out and buying $30,000-$40,000 brand new Mazda's? Not a lot of people are. Hell the 6 sells pretty poorly compared to it's competitors. The Optima and Sonota sell far more. The mid size sedan is what keeps companies afloat and as nice and sporty as the 6 appears to be it's not convincing enough buyers.

Compare this to Nissans current state and there's no comparison. The Altima is one of the top selling cars in the US. I could be wrong but I think it's going to beat the Accord this year and did beat it last year. Plus Nissan still has REAL sports cars in their portfolio; GTR, Z, G\Skyline. Mazda had one, that is a shadow of it's former self currently.

[simmode1]

Originally Posted by exitspeed

Plus Nissan still has REAL sports cars in their portfolio; GTR, Z, G\Skyline. Mazda had one, that is a shadow of it's former self currently.

R.I.P. RX8... never really lived up to it's pedigree.

They still got the Miata though

But I think the FRZ is ensuring that it's days are numbered.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by atom

I guess the irony is the IDX was designed in Europe and it's lead designer was a Brit, so the IDX is not really Japanese at all. It's a European interpretation of what Japanese cars used to be, not necessarily what they are at present. So if Nissan's future hinges on it keeping it's "Japanese-ness" (whatever that term even means), the IDX is probably not that car.

That would explain why it looks like a MKII Escort.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by Gnnr

Mazda reinvented itself as a fun brand when they started with the zoom-zoom marketing way back when. The Miata is still a fun roadster to drive. The identity they push is one of fun driver's cars and to me it sticks.



My perception of Mazda is better than that of Nissan's.

If I'm starting with the best street cars to make the race cars, I am not starting with a Mazda.

Their product line today sucks. Of their pedestrian cars, all the Ford counterparts are better. Of their performance cars... all they have is the Miata.

[mechanicalmoron]

*edit* Double post.

[mechanicalmoron]

Originally Posted by atom

I guess the irony is the IDX was designed in Europe and it's lead designer was a Brit, so the IDX is not really Japanese at all. It's a European interpretation of what Japanese cars used to be, not necessarily what they are at present. So if Nissan's future hinges on it keeping it's "Japanese-ness" (whatever that term even means), the IDX is probably not that car.



Nissan hasn't had a unique identity since they were on the brink of failure. And I don't think they really care. It's not exactly like strong brand identity is helping Mazda any. Nissan sold 24k Altima's in November alone. That was more than Mazda's entire product line in the same period.

Strong brand identity is what keeps you going in hard times. Nissan is selling cars to people who have more passion (understandably so) for their toasters. Maybe you can make a good toaster, but if people don't also love it, you're going to go under when someone makes a better toaster for a better price.

Nissan probably only survived because of their brand identity. Too bad they'll shit on it so eagerly. But companies don't see any further than the next quarter, and don't see any justification or quantification other than money. Some more than others, but nissan seems to be at the front of that pack.

This stuff about having people love your product and having some stability and reason to your model lines may matter more to small companies that sell smaller volumes of more cult-ish cars like mazda or subaru, but I don't think nissan could currently survive if their sales took a hit to the point that they where that size... because people don't love them. If they don't have volume, what do they have? Everyone bought an altima because it was a good generic car at the time, not because altima is such a beloved car.

Nissan KILLED the beloved high-value line, datsun, and introduced a douchey overpriced marquee instead, effectively the opposite of datsun. And then things fell apart.

[Corbic]

^ I thinks u retarded an not knoe da fuck uza sayan.

[kingkilburn]

Originally Posted by Corbic

That would explain why it looks like a MKII Escort.

Or perhaps it looks like Nissan designs that predate that care by a decade.

Originally Posted by Corbic

^ I thinks u retarded an not knoe da fuck uza sayan.

Do we really have to keep dealing with shit like this?

[Gnnr]

Originally Posted by exitspeed

Mazda also has a fraction of models that Nissan has AND Mazda has been in pretty rough shape financially. Their joint venture with Ford is over and that really hurts them. Also, are you going out and buying $30,000-$40,000 brand new Mazda's? Not a lot of people are. Hell the 6 sells pretty poorly compared to it's competitors. The Optima and Sonota sell far more. The mid size sedan is what keeps companies afloat and as nice and sporty as the 6 appears to be it's not convincing enough buyers.

Compare this to Nissans current state and there's no comparison. The Altima is one of the top selling cars in the US. I could be wrong but I think it's going to beat the Accord this year and did beat it last year. Plus Nissan still has REAL sports cars in their portfolio; GTR, Z, G\Skyline. Mazda had one, that is a shadow of it's former self currently.

What I am arguing here is not who is more successful, my point is to that of who has an identity that is tangible. Nissan NO LONGER has that identity it used to. If they are trying to go against the likes of Honda and Toyota for the the reliable daily driver identity they are failing miserably. Go see any independent rankings such as JD Power, Car and Driver's rankings, etc.

I love Nissan, there's still 2 sitting in my driveway, but even as an enthusiast I'm gonna call it like I see it and I'm not going to defend their failures. All those sports cars you mentioned are decent efforts, but fall short of what the enthusiast really want. As was mentioned earlier, Nissan is stuck in mediocrity. Toyota is the new Nissan. Top Halo car in the LFA, Luxury vehicles on point, superb grocery getters and lightweight rwd sports car.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

Or perhaps it looks like Nissan designs that predate that care by a decade.

Looks more like a MKII, which is the stuff of legends, than a 510. No body gives a fuck about the 610.

Also, all 1970's Japanese designs are nothing more than 2/3 rip-offs of American and European cars.

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

Do we really have to keep dealing with shit like this?

Because he is living up to his screen name? Are you seriously supporting this idiocy?

Originally Posted by mechanicalmoron

Nissan KILLED the beloved high-value line, datsun, and introduced a douchey overpriced marquee instead, effectively the opposite of datsun. And then things fell apart.

[kingkilburn]

Show me the cars the 510, KC10 Skyline, and 1st gen Silvia ripoff.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

Show me the cars the 510, KC10 Skyline, and 1st gen Silvia ripoff.

Go do you own research. Maybe that way we can have an intelligent conversation.

[kingkilburn]

You made the claim. You back it up or get out of here with that.

[simmode1]

Yet a-fucking-gain... Nissan fails to even exist in terms of brand perception. Doesn't have a good image. Doesn't have a bad image. Just doesn't exist and may as well be ignored by most consumers. Ghosn... WTF are you doing?!

The newest Consumer Report on brand perception:
Yahoo!

[EchoOfSilence]

I think Carlos Ghosn is doing a solid job overall with lots of improvement. I'm a fan especially since he put the initiative to bring back the GTR. Like with most turn-arounds, it always takes time.

He's also doing something right by leading the charge with the IDx. Nissan & Motor Trend personally invited me to MTHQ to see the IDx pair first hand & let me tell you -- it was AWESOME.

IDx @ MTHQ

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by simmode1

Yet a-fucking-gain... Nissan fails to even exist in terms of brand perception. Doesn't have a good image. Doesn't have a bad image. Just doesn't exist and may as well be ignored by most consumers. Ghosn... WTF are you doing?!

The newest Consumer Report on brand perception:
Yahoo!

Once again Consumer Reports fails. LOL read that story line they did a phone survey of 1500 people and are trying to extrapolate it out to cover a country the size of the U.S.? What complete and utter bullshit. You could have done that survey here IN LA and it would have skewed differently. Stop listening to what has become a hack rag and not the best for gauging anything anymore. lol

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by drift freaq

Once again Consumer Reports fails. LOL read that story line they did a phone survey of 1500 people and are trying to extrapolate it out to cover a country the size of the U.S.? What complete and utter bullshit. You could have done that survey here IN LA and it would have skewed differently. Stop listening to what has become a hack rag and not the best for gauging anything anymore. lol

You should see how election polls work. They ask a few thousand people and are able to get a 95% confidence rate on what the other 200 million voted.

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by Corbic

You should see how election polls work. They ask a few thousand people and are able to get a 95% confidence rate on what the other 200 million voted.

Ya that's why I always take election polls with a grain of salt. Interesting to look it but don't read everything into one single poll. The only way election polls get relevant is when they start doing them on district levels and with certain states at state level. Then you start putting those statistics together. Though any poll that claims 1500 phone calls covers a reasonable cross section of the average U.S. car buyer is smoking something damn good.

[jamanrr]

I bought my iGT 6 over an Altima and own a Miata, I am in the camp of Mazda making exciting cars in boring segments. I like my Bose radios, I like my leather seats and convertibles. To me Mazda and Subaru both do a better job than nissan or Toyota. Is that the case for everyone probably not but I buy what I like not what other buy and like . Always have always will.

[Gnnr]

Originally Posted by simmode1

Yet a-fucking-gain... Nissan fails to even exist in terms of brand perception. Doesn't have a good image. Doesn't have a bad image. Just doesn't exist and may as well be ignored by most consumers. Ghosn... WTF are you doing?!

The newest Consumer Report on brand perception:
Yahoo!

Wait one fucking minute here! Land Rover, Maserati, Jaguar and Rolls-Royce have a bad overall brand perception!? This survey must have been done in the the middle of nowhere America

[SimpleS14]

Originally Posted by Gnnr

Wait one fucking minute here! Land Rover, Maserati, Jaguar and Rolls-Royce have a bad overall brand perception!? This survey must have been done in the the middle of nowhere America

The people voting on the polls are just straight up haters of the brands. They probably think the owners reek of smug and arrogance.

[kingkilburn]

Bump for relevance.

[Bspilner]

Heard that the new CEO is just as bad and heartless like Ghosn, so sadly I doubt we'll see anychange in Nissan's philosophy and direction.

[exitspeed]

Yeah that sucks.