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Old 01-15-2021, 02:57 PM   #13651
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Originally Posted by deolio View Post
If the z is the last manual turbo sports car I'm gonna be mega sad.
Damn it's gonna be between the Z and the base Mustang probably for RWD. Unless Mazda revives the Mazdaspeed nameplate and turbos their Miata. There's literally nothing else. Otherwise the used car market for ANYTHING rwd and manual will perpetually be a seller's market.
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Old 01-15-2021, 11:29 PM   #13652
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I'll be happy if mazda makes a factory hardtop for the ND. can't see myself resisting getting a nd club w/ recaros and brembos in a few years.
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Old 01-16-2021, 07:44 PM   #13653
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Originally Posted by Antihero983 View Post
They did exactly what I hoped they would. As a former BRZ owner, all I ever wanted was a slight bump in displacement, and for years I said the 2.5 out of the Legacy would've been perfect. These cars don't NEED turbos, I never understood people's obsession with it. I miss my 2013, it was one of my 3 favorite cars I've owned, and I had never planned to boost it.
Going back a bit but I agree with this 100%. My current daily is a pretty much stock 2013 BRZ and I don't really have any desire to modify it. It's fun to drive and since its NA there's no temptation for me to do anything stupid that would ruin it. I find the older I get the less I care about having a manual/turbocharged car. As long as whatever I'm driving doesnt bore me to death, I'm good. My 240 serves fine as a turbo plaything/weekend cruiser and the new 86/BRZ seems to fill the gaps in what my 2013 is missing as a daily. My main complaint with my current car is the lack of interior quality, which seems to have been fixed in the later models and new generation. I'm still not 100% sold on the new generation styling for the BRZ but I'm hoping the Toyota models will solve that. I'll probably be trading up to the new generation this year.
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Old 01-17-2021, 03:34 AM   #13654
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I still don't get though why people think a version of this new GR86/BRZ shouldn't of been offered with at least 250hp (whether NA, or forced induction). At best it would be a high 13sec car, which is far from the "Wangan/ straight speed demon" people try to claim it doesn't need to be.

Maybe the silver lining will be that this new 2.4 will make 250-260hp with just I/H/E and a tune? I think that would make it slightly more appealing to me vs. having to turbo a factory warrantied car.
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Old 01-18-2021, 08:22 AM   #13655
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Originally Posted by Future240 View Post
With the new engine in the brz I wonder if adding a turbo will even be possible. Compression is 13:5:1.
The turbo version is available in a number of big market vehicles (Ascent, Outback, Legacy, probably Forester and STi eventually) and they're showing up in junk yards. If you can't get that worked out, I don't know what to tell you. It will be the new SR-into-a-240sx swap.
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Old 01-18-2021, 09:22 AM   #13656
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The factory turbo engines are running something like 10:1 compression ratios, run 87 octane, and have a much lower redline. That's going to be a very different driving experience, even after cranking the boost.
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Old 01-18-2021, 09:53 AM   #13657
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^^Yep.

The higher compression ratio comes with the bigger risk of detonation. "Generally" max safe boost on stock compression (12.5:1) FRS/BRZ/GT86 is around 7-9psi with pump gas and 12.5psi on E85.
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Old 01-18-2021, 10:25 AM   #13658
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Originally Posted by kingkilburn View Post
The factory turbo engines are running something like 10:1 compression ratios, run 87 octane, and have a much lower redline. That's going to be a very different driving experience, even after cranking the boost.
Yes, and people still complain when Subaru says they can't/don't want to add a turbo because it will change the character of the car. You want an OEM turbo, this is what you're going to get.
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Old 01-18-2021, 10:56 AM   #13659
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Originally Posted by cdlong View Post
Yes, and people still complain when Subaru says they can't/don't want to add a turbo because it will change the character of the car. You want an OEM turbo, this is what you're going to get.
Cause yeah, that totally describes a WRX, you know the Turbo car they do sell.


This is the problem.

It's a bullshit excuse. We know they have 300hp turbo engines on tap and can pass emissions etc.

If it's all about "an AE86" experience, then they should have built built a rev happy engine with linear torque and a nice VVL transition - aka F20C, K24, Porsche M96... Or even their own Ez30r.

Ez30r would have been the perfect OEM NA engine, adding 55hp, 60 ft/tq and the same red line with a nice VVL bump and great exhaust note.

Engine is 1.5" longer and like 40lbs heavier.

FA20 is a piece of shit.
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Old 01-18-2021, 12:54 PM   #13660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corbic View Post
Cause yeah, that totally describes a WRX, you know the Turbo car they do sell.


This is the problem.

It's a bullshit excuse. We know they have 300hp turbo engines on tap and can pass emissions etc.

If it's all about "an AE86" experience, then they should have built built a rev happy engine with linear torque and a nice VVL transition - aka F20C, K24, Porsche M96... Or even their own Ez30r.

Ez30r would have been the perfect OEM NA engine, adding 55hp, 60 ft/tq and the same red line with a nice VVL bump and great exhaust note.

Engine is 1.5" longer and like 40lbs heavier.

FA20 is a piece of shit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwq-7UQHwj8

You were not lying about the exhaust note.
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Old 01-18-2021, 02:15 PM   #13661
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corbic View Post
Cause yeah, that totally describes a WRX, you know the Turbo car they do sell.


This is the problem.

It's a bullshit excuse. We know they have 300hp turbo engines on tap and can pass emissions etc.

If it's all about "an AE86" experience, then they should have built built a rev happy engine with linear torque and a nice VVL transition - aka F20C, K24, Porsche M96... Or even their own Ez30r.

Ez30r would have been the perfect OEM NA engine, adding 55hp, 60 ft/tq and the same red line with a nice VVL bump and great exhaust note.

Engine is 1.5" longer and like 40lbs heavier.

FA20 is a piece of shit.
Nobody's talking about the FA20 at this point, but whatever.

But lets compare the WRX and Ascent engines

2015+ USDM Subaru WRX:
Power: 268 hp (200 kW; 272 PS) at 5,600 RPM
Torque: 258 lb⋅ft (350 N⋅m; 36 kg⋅m) at 2,000-5,200 RPM
Rev Limit: 6700 RPM
Compression Ratio: 10.6:1

2019+ USDM Subaru Ascent
Power: 260 hp (194 kW; 264 PS) at 5,600 RPM
Torque: 277 lb⋅ft (376 N⋅m; 38 kg⋅m) at 2,000-4,800 RPM
Rev Limit: 6000 RPM
Compression Ratio: 10.6:1

I don't know man, I think a BRZ with a WRX engine and an Ascent engine would both drive pretty much the same, and very different than an stock BRZ, even ignoring the acceleration difference.

If you want a AE86 style BRZ, seems like you're all set. If you want a high torque power house (comparatively) you're just an engine swap away, or keep waiting for Subaru would build essentially this as an OEM turbo version. If you want a high power, high rev sports car, you're going to have to build that yourself since Subaru is never going to build that car. I can't think of any cars that have an engine that fits that description except maybe a Civic Type R. Everything else with a turbo seems to have that "max torque from 2k-5k rpm" style of tuning. I think the forum warriors were going to be disappointed no matter what happened. At least the NA FA24 is easier and cheaper for Subaru.
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Old 01-18-2021, 04:58 PM   #13662
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I would much rather have the revs than the slight bump in power of a different engine family. New buyers will get more displacement AND a higher rev limit.

It's funny, people made exactly the same complaints about the S2000 and now it's a modern classic.
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Old 01-19-2021, 04:33 AM   #13663
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People still complain about the S2K stock performance, though. Subaru/ Toyota basically just matched the performance of the S2K with this new BRZ/ GR86 after 9yrs.

I said it a couple pages back, but if you wanted an S2K, but were too tall, wanted more luggage room, or couldn't afford one... this new BRZ/ GR86 is going to scratch that itch (sans convertible obviously).

For the person who wanted an FD3S, or S15 Spec R it will not... It would of been nice to see Subaru/ Toyota make a version that could do Tsukuba in 1:07:XX, or faster, but that will probably never happen now.
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Old 01-19-2021, 11:31 AM   #13664
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But the S2k was an innovative car when it came out in what, 1999? lol It's 2021 and giant n/a 4 bangers putting down 228hp is boring.

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If you want a high torque power house (comparatively) you're just an engine swap away,
lmao
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Old 01-19-2021, 11:32 AM   #13665
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The people still complaining about stock S2000 performance were never the target buyers. It was never intended to be a pony car, for lack of a more specific term.

BTW, look at the massive price difference between the cars used to compare what everyone desires the BRZ to be and what it actually costs. How much was a new FD, Skyline rwd turbo, S15 Spec R, Supra, etc? How much are people willing to pay for a turbo flat six BRZ?
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Old 01-19-2021, 11:44 AM   #13666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingkilburn View Post
The people still complaining about stock S2000 performance were never the target buyers. It was never intended to be a pony car, for lack of a more specific term.

BTW, look at the massive price difference between the cars used to compare what everyone desires the BRZ to be and what it actually costs. How much was a new FD, Skyline rwd turbo, S15 Spec R, Supra, etc? How much are people willing to pay for a turbo flat six BRZ?
Car's have gotten much cheaper considering wages and inflation. The new STi for instance, is only about 15% more expensive than they were in 2006. Factoring in a cumulative inflation rate of about 32% it's actually cheaper.
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Old 01-19-2021, 12:49 PM   #13667
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So those early 90s Japanese sports cars are like $60k cars. That's the general idea to keep in mind. We're literally asking for double the value and in some areas basically getting it.
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Old 01-19-2021, 02:20 PM   #13668
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spooled240 View Post
lmao
Speculation of course, but given they're both FA24s, it's probably easier than a stock SR swap into a 240 since the transmission should carry over and it has a top mount (hood clearance aside). And the engine is available in local junkyards and parts are available at your local AdvanceO'Zone. If you want to upgrade, the sky's the limit as with anything else.

If the issue is comparing an engine swap vs. just adding a turbo kit, refer to the post that started this vein of discussion.

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With the new engine in the brz I wonder if adding a turbo will even be possible. Compression is 13:5:1.
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The turbo version is available in a number of big market vehicles (Ascent, Outback, Legacy, probably Forester and STi eventually) and they're showing up in junk yards. If you can't get that worked out, I don't know what to tell you. It will be the new SR-into-a-240sx swap.
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Old 01-19-2021, 02:36 PM   #13669
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^^^That is a fairish point. MY S14 was 28k when it was bought according to the sales ppwk in the glove box.

So 28k for 155hp rwd 5 speed maunal with basic everything

Now for 28k (44k counting for inflation money)can get you a brand new ecoboost stang
2x the HP for the same price. weights 700lb more than an s14.
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Old 01-19-2021, 02:48 PM   #13670
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingkilburn View Post
The people still complaining about stock S2000 performance were never the target buyers. It was never intended to be a pony car, for lack of a more specific term.
You could say the same for the EVO, or STI, but they were still doing Tsukuba in 1m 6s vs. the S2K doing it in 1m 9s. They all three cost about the same back in 2004 also.

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So those early 90s Japanese sports cars are like $60k cars. That's the general idea to keep in mind. We're literally asking for double the value and in some areas basically getting it.
Yet, Subaru was able to make a completely new VA WRX chassis with AWD, 4drs, *turbo, 268hp/258tq, 6spd M/T and keep it under $28K. Also, what about the FK8 CTR? How was Honda able to keep that under $38K and still be able to run a 1m 6s lap on Tsukuba?

Oh, don't forget about the 350Z. The S15 Spec R Aero was last sold the same year the 350Z came out and had an MSRP of 2,560,000yen vs. the 350Z's 3,000,000yen.

Lets see what the MSRP increase was like on the Z in the US after that:
2003 350Z Base 6spd: $26,370
2003 350Z Performance 6spd: $30,530
2020 370Z Base 6spd: $30,090
2020 370Z Sport 6spd: $33,820
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Old 01-19-2021, 03:07 PM   #13671
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You're turning a means of comparing relative value and performance into some kind of zero sum game, entirely missing the point and a lot of context.
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Old 01-19-2021, 03:26 PM   #13672
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Just to reiterate how little this Z is going to need to look even more amazing.




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Old 01-19-2021, 03:31 PM   #13673
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You're turning a means of comparing relative value and performance into some kind of zero sum game, entirely missing the point and a lot of context.
Not at all. I'm just giving real world examples and simply having a discussion.

You are probably right on the expensive 90's cars like the BNR32/ 34, BCNR33, FD3S, JZA80 and TT Z33. At the same time you have to realize that manufacturing cost were getting more advanced (thus less costly) by the late 90's and into the early 00's.

At the end of the day Subaru/ Toyota could've probably delivered on a turbo BRZ/ GR86 with Brembo's and kept it under $36K. Would of been rad.
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Old 01-20-2021, 12:07 AM   #13674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingkilburn View Post
So those early 90s Japanese sports cars are like $60k cars. That's the general idea to keep in mind. We're literally asking for double the value and in some areas basically getting it.
Yeah those were top of the line super cars, of course they are going to be expensive at the time. Plasma TV's were also very expensive at one point. Tech has gotten cheaper and asking for a 250hp/250tq turbo 2.0l in a 2800lb chassis for $32k isn't unreasonable.
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Old 01-20-2021, 12:17 AM   #13675
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdlong View Post
Speculation of course, but given they're both FA24s, it's probably easier than a stock SR swap into a 240 since the transmission should carry over and it has a top mount (hood clearance aside). And the engine is available in local junkyards and parts are available at your local AdvanceO'Zone. If you want to upgrade, the sky's the limit as with anything else.

If the issue is comparing an engine swap vs. just adding a turbo kit, refer to the post that started this vein of discussion.
The issue for me is I'm in CA so I'm not touching anything that is going to
1. Void the warranty
2. Not smog legal
3. Make the car less reliable
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Old 01-21-2021, 12:34 PM   #13676
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front bumper design for new 86. seems like a less polarizing design than that of the brz.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/we-f...ill-look-like/
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Old 01-21-2021, 01:12 PM   #13677
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eh... new BRZ is such a disappointment over all. same old car, same old excuses from the manufacturer, and same god awful Japanese stigma of modern design in terms of "LETS PUT VENTS EVERYWHERE!!!"... also same ugly bubble butt look for loads of front angles thats plagued Japanese design since the 350z.

take a cue from the American brands, give the rear end definition so it doesnt look like a bubble assed eye sore... oh and add a goddamn turbo while youre at it instead of increasing engine compression to ungodly levels (13:5:1 get the fuck out of here Subaru)
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Old 01-21-2021, 02:00 PM   #13678
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Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronmcdon View Post
front bumper design for new 86. seems like a less polarizing design than that of the brz.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/we-f...ill-look-like/
Toyota bumper is 100x better than the BRZ. Those tear drop vents on the BRZ are straight atrocious.

I'm not a big yellow guy, but this picture would sure hit different if this thing was turbo:
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Old 01-21-2021, 04:26 PM   #13679
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This and Z looks much better than anything "American" in my opinion.
There is no finesse in American design at all.

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Old 01-21-2021, 06:51 PM   #13680
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The styling reminds me of the G35 coupe transition to the G37. The 37 doesn't look bad but it's missing some "it" factor the 35 had. Same for the BRZ/86.
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