This is the roll center, suspension pickup, and steering angle modification thread.

[PoorMans180SX]

IF's are Ikeya Formula.

With 7mm spacers, 25mm extended arms, and stock knuckles, my S14 inners are just at their safe point in my opinion. I'd try and get something longer.

EDIT: If you use SPL outers, you won't have an issue with S14 inners because the threaded sleeve is much longer on the SPL's than a stock outer.

[IThaJokaI]

Try out some Y33 inners maybe?

[Nissansota240]

So I hope that this isn't a stupid question but I did try searching. Maybe I was using the wrong words but does anyone have a side by side comparison pic of a s13 and s14 front lower control arm?

I ask because I want to extend my s14 flcas but was thinking that I should just trade my s14 flcas to a friend for his s13 flcas so that I could extend those. The s14 flca is suppose to be longer then the s13 one and I was hoping that by using a s13 flca and extending that I could increase the distance between the ball joint and the mounting points for the tension rods then allowing for more room then there would be if I just extended my s14 flcas. Thus making there more room at full lock. Right now my rim currently hits my spl tension rod.

Maybe I'm overlooking something here but I'm hoping this is a good place to ask this question?

[LuckyX2]

So I plan on "finishing" my suspension this upcoming season and was hoping you guys could guide me in the right direction. I'm decently well informed but there's just way too much info here to read it all.

First off, what I'm looking for... I don't drift so I'm not really looking for added steering angle but I am into autocross and eventually plan to get into circuit racing so I am looking to get the car low while still retaining an acceptable roll center. Wider track width would be nice too.

My current suspension consists of:
-Koni 8611's
-Hyperco coils 450F/350R
-Tanabe Sustec front sway bar
-No bar in rear since it was very tail happy on autox courses
-Z32 aluminum rear uprights
-SPL aluminum subframe bushings
-Generic adjustable linkages (ruca, traction/toe/castor rods)

So what is my best course of action for lowering the car while still keeping the roll center correct? I'd like the parts to lower the car rather than the adjustments on the coilovers so that I can keep full travel and not stress the shocks. Is there any cheaper yet still effective way to do this aside from buying drop knuckles/uprights? They're very pricey compared to something like modifying the ball joint shank on the lower control arm, but that will only correct roll center and not lower the car, right?

TL;DR What's currently the most cost-effective way to lower a car while keeping full suspension travel and a correct roll center?

Thanks for any advice!

[dil han]

Originally Posted by Nissansota240

So I hope that this isn't a stupid question but I did try searching. Maybe I was using the wrong words but does anyone have a side by side comparison pic of a s13 and s14 front lower control arm?

I ask because I want to extend my s14 flcas but was thinking that I should just trade my s14 flcas to a friend for his s13 flcas so that I could extend those. The s14 flca is suppose to be longer then the s13 one and I was hoping that by using a s13 flca and extending that I could increase the distance between the ball joint and the mounting points for the tension rods then allowing for more room then there would be if I just extended my s14 flcas. Thus making there more room at full lock. Right now my rim currently hits my spl tension rod.

Maybe I'm overlooking something here but I'm hoping this is a good place to ask this question?

Yes you might as well sell your s14 arms for $100 and mod s13 arms. If you're using s14 knuckles you will need to retain your ball joints or buy new ones. The s14 arms are only .250" longer than s13 if I'm correct. 6mm

[Nissansota240]

Originally Posted by dil han

Yes you might as well sell your s14 arms for $100 and mod s13 arms. If you're using s14 knuckles you will need to retain your ball joints or buy new ones. The s14 arms are only .250" longer than s13 if I'm correct. 6mm

So the difference in lengths of the s13 and s14 flcas is between the ball joint and the mounting points for the tension rod correct?

[Tearlessj]

Opps. Ignore.

[dil han]

Originally Posted by Nissansota240

So the difference in lengths of the s13 and s14 flcas is between the ball joint and the mounting points for the tension rod correct?

Correct. I believe the difference is created just before the ball joint hole and the bend on the end of the arm.

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

So I plan on "finishing" my suspension this upcoming season and was hoping you guys could guide me in the right direction. I'm decently well informed but there's just way too much info here to read it all.

First off, what I'm looking for... I don't drift so I'm not really looking for added steering angle but I am into autocross and eventually plan to get into circuit racing so I am looking to get the car low while still retaining an acceptable roll center. Wider track width would be nice too.

My current suspension consists of:
-Koni 8611's
-Hyperco coils 450F/350R
-Tanabe Sustec front sway bar
-No bar in rear since it was very tail happy on autox courses
-Z32 aluminum rear uprights
-SPL aluminum subframe bushings
-Generic adjustable linkages (ruca, traction/toe/castor rods)

So what is my best course of action for lowering the car while still keeping the roll center correct? I'd like the parts to lower the car rather than the adjustments on the coilovers so that I can keep full travel and not stress the shocks. Is there any cheaper yet still effective way to do this aside from buying drop knuckles/uprights? They're very pricey compared to something like modifying the ball joint shank on the lower control arm, but that will only correct roll center and not lower the car, right?

TL;DR What's currently the most cost-effective way to lower a car while keeping full suspension travel and a correct roll center?

Thanks for any advice!

Driftworks knuckles are going to be the best bank for your buck for your goals. They have enough ackerman to keep the steering happy on the autox and road course, but drop the car 45mm in the front and 50mm in the rear.

You could probably just get the fronts, as your rear will be fine, and you probably want to keep the Z32 uprights anyway.

[Silvi]

I need an advice about problem i came across.

The problem is that after installing the knuckles, ackerman changes made my inner wheel hit the antiroll before full lock.
Im thinking to remove the antiroll, but im not sure if it will give me enough clearance

My setup:
Geomaster knuckles
geomaster tension rods
30 mm extended LCAs
18"X8.5 ET30 + 20mm spacer
rack spacer

[240Cali]

this thread kicks ass.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

IF's are Ikeya Formula.

With 7mm spacers, 25mm extended arms, and stock knuckles, my S14 inners are just at their safe point in my opinion. I'd try and get something longer.

EDIT: If you use SPL outers, you won't have an issue with S14 inners because the threaded sleeve is much longer on the SPL's than a stock outer.

So you're just using a spacer with stock inners and outters? I suppose that keeps the cost down. I guess there really is quite a few ways to extend tie rods, as for just having a cut stock knuck and extended lca is there really any benefit from getting just an outter or just an inner?


SPL's definitely seem like the best route. But dang they are expensive.

The IF's on the other hand are definitely in a good price range. Do you think just some IF inners and stock outters I'll be good to go?

Also is there anywhere to buy the IF's stateside? Everything seems to be shipping from jap land

[Drift1040]

Check this out! A guy in my area has a small cnc machine shop and is about to put some products out on the market for the S chassis. He just created a FB page and a website so here are the links.

There is also a great article on the website regarding suspension geometry and drop spindles.

Comes with drop spindles, LCAs, tension rods, outer tierods, and swaybar endlinks.

I know everything is made from 7075 aluminum and chrome moly heim joints.
It has 3 tie rod locations for various steer ratios and angles and a 2inch drop in the spindle to regain suspension geometry and get rid of bump steer.

The spindle design is complete and hes producing them now. They are a ton lighter then factory and around 2.5x stronger.

He said eta is around 2 months and price is around 600.00

http://keislerautomation.com/

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Keisle...5605569?ref=hl

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by Silvi

I need an advice about problem i came across.

The problem is that after installing the knuckles, ackerman changes made my inner wheel hit the antiroll before full lock.
Im thinking to remove the antiroll, but im not sure if it will give me enough clearance

My setup:
Geomaster knuckles
geomaster tension rods
30 mm extended LCAs
18"X8.5 ET30 + 20mm spacer
rack spacer

Buy a Cor Integration swaybar, then it'll probably hit the tension rods. Then you can either redrill the holes and move them in, buy Cor tension rods which are curved and offset, or buy PSM FLCA's that already have the tension rod moved in.

That's about the most clearance you can get out of parts available. You can probably get another bit if you remove the swaybar and run Drift937's LCA's.

[Silvi]

Thanks for the fast reply
My tension rods are curved(geomaster rods), Im pretty sure that my sway bar is useless as my coilovers are stiffer.
Im afraid that after removing the antirol the wheel will hit the tension rods and it will kill the tyres when they touch.

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Driftworks knuckles are going to be the best bank for your buck for your goals. They have enough ackerman to keep the steering happy on the autox and road course, but drop the car 45mm in the front and 50mm in the rear.

You could probably just get the fronts, as your rear will be fine, and you probably want to keep the Z32 uprights anyway.

That's gonna be ok having the coilovers in the rear set almost two inches lower than in the front so that my car is level? I won't run out of travel on my rear shocks trying to keep up with how low the front will be? And the rear roll center will be ok? I'm just picturing a low front while still maintaining good geometry and a messed up rear with the coils maxed out from trying to stay level with the front but without the assistance of a 45mm drop knuckle.

Oh and what about GKtech's bolt on knuckle adapter with 40mm of correction? Those won't drop the car right? They just correct the roll center?

[KA240SX808]

Because you don't have height independent adjustability you will probably have rear travel issues trying to level the car out.
Rear roll center is normally ok until you start getting to the point of tucking the rear tire.

Correct the GK Tech bolt on only corrects roll center and changes Ackerman. No additional drop.

[kewilso3]

Originally Posted by Drift1040

Check this out! A guy in my area has a small cnc machine shop and is about to put some products out on the market for the S chassis. He just created a FB page and a website so here are the links.

There is also a great article on the website regarding suspension geometry and drop spindles.

Comes with drop spindles, LCAs, tension rods, outer tierods, and swaybar endlinks.

I know everything is made from 7075 aluminum and chrome moly heim joints.
It has 3 tie rod locations for various steer ratios and angles and a 2inch drop in the spindle to regain suspension geometry and get rid of bump steer.

The spindle design is complete and hes producing them now. They are a ton lighter then factory and around 2.5x stronger.

He said eta is around 2 months and price is around 600.00

Home Page

Keisler Automation - Powell, TN - Automobiles and Parts | Facebook

More info! Can't really see details... how is the spindle attached to the knuckle? (and what spindle/hub is he using?) and it looks like the misalignment spacer is on backwards, looks like it will bind immediately on a car. Hard to tell from this picture, but it looks like the shank holding the knuckle is mounted perpendicular to the spindle, bad news when you consider camber, caster, and sai (is he going to relocate the upper strut pickup?). Those things along with the rod ends in bending worry me. Is the open hole on the lca where the swaybar will mount?

[KA240SX808]

Alright looking for some feedback.

Just wanna see how much caster you guys are able to run.

Setup I'm looking towards consists of:
- PBM SREB
- Camber/Caster Coil Top Mounts
- Some kind of Knuckles (Not sure with so many options)
- And of course Tension Rods and ITR Spacers

I'm looking to run more than 7.5* of caster for more self steer.
A lot of the places I run are kind of tight so any help from self steer for transitions will be great.

I've ran 7-7.1* Caster which is about stock. But I feel I could use a bit more help on the quick transitions. I'm OK with helping the wheel with a quick flick in the way I want to go but I feel habit more assist will be great.

[swiftmini]

Originally Posted by Wisefab

Hi,

I thought i say something too, since it is our parts everybody are raving on about in here.

Feel free to ask any questions to stop some other rumours.

Wisefab crew

I know this isnt entirely aimed at me but i would like to say that i havent been arguing that your products are cheating, not good, rubbish ect ect.

My argument is that there becomes a point where more lock is pointless!! I had stupid lock and shite arches. Now i have reduced lock and nice wheel fitment and my car is still impossible to spin out

And as Poorman180sx stated, its alot down to personal preference and driver style. Having flat contact patch is exactly the opposite to what I (me personally) want. All my favourite drivers, that i want to drive like, use similar setups to me!!

Iam also a race car engineer at Liam Doran Motor Sport I build rally cross cars for x games gold place winner Liam Doran.

Welcome - Liam Doran

Marcus Gronholm vs Liam Doran - XGames 2011 RallyCross Final - YouTube

Pat Doran 2012 Pikes Peak Hill Climb RS200 Evolution Bottom Section Practice - YouTube

Something i learnt straight away with my well set up car is that you should never lift off of the throttle. keep it pinned at all times

[swiftmini]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

IF's are Ikeya Formula.

With 7mm spacers, 25mm extended arms, and stock knuckles, my S14 inners are just at their safe point in my opinion. I'd try and get something longer.

I had to extend my IFs they dont actually extend all that far

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by kewilso3

More info! Can't really see details... how is the spindle attached to the knuckle? (and what spindle/hub is he using?) and it looks like the misalignment spacer is on backwards, looks like it will bind immediately on a car. Hard to tell from this picture, but it looks like the shank holding the knuckle is mounted perpendicular to the spindle, bad news when you consider camber, caster, and sai (is he going to relocate the upper strut pickup?). Those things along with the rod ends in bending worry me. Is the open hole on the lca where the swaybar will mount?

Someone asked about the misalignment spacers on their facebook page too and the response was: "There is also misalignment spacers on the bottom of the rod ends. They are smaller the the uppers and not visible from the picture."

As for the rest of the stuff you mention, hopefully Drift1040 can chime in.

You're talking about this point here, right?

Like how it's angled on this setup but flat for the Keisler design? I'll ask them on their facebook.

Judging by this picture:

Having it perpendicular would lead to zero ackerman, right?

There's also a picture from another angle that might help:


Also, it looks like the wisefab setup is perpendicular too but hard to tell for sure from just this picture:

[TheRealSy90]

How's this for stock unmodified knuckles?

[LuckyX2]

Reply from Keisler!

I asked: "Which spindle are you using for these? The S14 spindle is larger than the S13 spindle"

Reply: "The s14/15 uses the larger hub boss. That is what the kit will be designed to use. I can do a custom boss of a 4 lug s13 though."

I asked: "And excuse me if I'm incorrect but shouldn't the mount for the knuckle on the lower control arm be at a bit of an angle? This is how Nissan engineered it from the factory and how I see it done on many professional setups. So what are the pros/cons to not having the mount angled as it appears in your design? Thank you."

Reply: "It's hard to tell from the picture, but there is a angle on the spindle where the lower ball joint mounts. The angle isn't as drastic as from the factory though. From a engineering aspect, the angle of the lower ball joint would be optimal if inline the the steering inclination angle. That is what I have done. I don't know why Nissan decided to go about double that of the SIA."

[frantic]

hi do Cor Integration swaybar to s14 with space for more steering angle?
no response from them and can not see any products on their side

[kewilso3]

sounds like they did try to line up the "balljoint" shank with the sai, that's good. Still wish it was an actual ball joint or an enclosed spherical

[Drift1040]

Originally Posted by kewilso3

More info! Can't really see details... how is the spindle attached to the knuckle? (and what spindle/hub is he using?) and it looks like the misalignment spacer is on backwards, looks like it will bind immediately on a car. Hard to tell from this picture, but it looks like the shank holding the knuckle is mounted perpendicular to the spindle, bad news when you consider camber, caster, and sai (is he going to relocate the upper strut pickup?). Those things along with the rod ends in bending worry me. Is the open hole on the lca where the swaybar will mount?

The lower ball joint bolt is at the same angle as the SIA which is actually better then the factory degree. Rod ends all have mis align spacers and yes, the hole is for the sway bar end link and a 180 degree ball joint/rod end is used along with a 90 degree one for the sway bar end link. There are no pictures of it, but he showed me in person and it looks fantastic.

[Drift1040]

Originally Posted by kewilso3

sounds like they did try to line up the "balljoint" shank with the sai, that's good. Still wish it was an actual ball joint or an enclosed spherical

The reason there is a rod end instead of a balljoint is for increased track/camber. On one end is a LH thread and other is a RH thread, take the bolt out for the TC rod and unbolt the sway bar end link and start adjusting until your heart's content. The rod ends are top of the line and I think he will offer replacements on the website. I think they will be priced around 10.00 a piece so no biggie if you gotta swap em every few years.

[LuckyX2]

Zilvia's back!

I was also concerned about the bending force so I asked him about it on facebook and he said he's going to personally stress test the rod ends. If he's not satisfied with how they perform, he'll change the design.

[cchondro]

Does anyone know what are the measurements to cut the front knuckle
I'm going to have Finishline do them for me but they just need the measurements or a cad layout of it

also does everybody extend their lower control arms by an inch??
I'm sure its in here but I'm on my phone at the moment and don't have time to look

thanks !