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Old 11-23-2018, 11:41 PM   #1
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Chat about pros and cons of engines (sr 2j ls mainly but any engine)

sr pros:
30-33mpg at 2800lbs
easy to work on
good mostly stock around 400rwhp
add pros now....

srcons:
first and second are always kind of desperate and more power makes the trans potentially suffer disaster as clutches get more "grabby" 500rwhp+
six speed version is slightly unreliable w/ circlip
automatic is not really an option
limited qty getting expensive

2j pros:
legendary 500-800rwhp stock block
auto version is acceptable
will work in heavy cars


2j cons:
expensive (turbo versions w/ low compression and piston oil squirts)
I heard its heavy
max mpg is 25-? (anybody have data @ 3000lbs?)
auto version is dangerous (no torque management has resulted with crashes).


ls V8 pros:
some cheap iron blocks are almost free and do 500-600rwhp with a valvespring and water injection turbo
the lighter, aluminum version supports even more 800rwhp and holds some kinda records (L33) still cheaper than a 2J and probably weighs less ("the new/next 2JZ")
Auto includes torque management factory for auto daily driver (ex. rain)



ls cons:
the light ones are expensive
the cheap ones are heavy
the best auto transmission 4l80e is so heavy inside it limits economy, at 3000lbs it may be low as 25mpg, depends on gearing
8 spark plugs now, can you reach them all?
Etc....


Ok now add all the ones I missed or fix the sentences so they are true (and then vote on a best engine based on pros and cons)
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Old 11-23-2018, 11:46 PM   #2
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for example
link to something about 2jz weight
https://www.supraforums.com/forum/sh...=1#post8873934
Quote:
V10KLLR:
This is the information I found online:
Here is the ultimate engine weight chart.

Those are figures for long block plus EFI, but w/o flywheel, turbo or accessories.
22RE - 318lb
5M-GE - 340lb
7M-GTE - 420lb
1UZ-FE - 395lb
1JZ/2JZ ≈ 450lb
1G-GTE ≈ 385lb

Those are for complete running order engine minus intercooler and intake piping.
2JZ-GTE - 594 lbs w/ Getrag V160 or A340 - 746lbs
1JZ-GTE - 700lb with R154
1UZ + w58 ≈ 580lb
7M-GTE + R154 ≈ 640lb
22RE + w58 ≈ 500lb

Tranny (w/ bellhousing)
W50 - 110lb (steel case)
W5X - 90lb (aluminum case)
R154 - 125lb
V160 - 130lb

Auto (w/o torque converter, w/o fluid)
A40 - 110lb
A340 - 125lb
now verify it and compare other results for accuracy, then compare to ls L33 weight
because i have to go, i dont have time for this or punctuation etc... but this will be useful as currently the info is split into multiple threads (for example LS sticky, 2J sticky, etc)
Just in a couple posts (so its only 1 page or less) Ill edit to take up more space when I see whatever is missing later months from now
if you have time and bored
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Old 11-23-2018, 11:51 PM   #3
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I feel a storm brewing....but I like it. Great start to a thread for a very annoyingly asked question on here. Sub’d.
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Old 11-23-2018, 11:51 PM   #4
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Hopefully this stays civil and doesn’t degenerate into shitshows and arguments, I’d really like to see some good debate and information come from this thread
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Old 11-24-2018, 01:59 AM   #5
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"30-33mpg"

No. Not consistently. I daily'd a stock notchtop that ran the definition of perfectly for 5 years and while I got 30-31 a few times, it's only during sustained driving at 65mph or less. Driving at a normal interstate speed(ie 70+, realistically moving with traffic is at least 78) I got 25mpg at best. City was 20-22, less if there was a significant amount of stop and go.

I'd be all for this thread but truth be told, your head is stuck so far up your own ass hole it isn't even worth it.
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Old 11-24-2018, 08:09 AM   #6
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These theads remind me of dwight pranks....

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Old 11-24-2018, 09:10 AM   #7
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Meh. VET, and get weight, the awesome flowing head and 30mpg. All said and done you'd be in it for the same as a 2J, but with less packaging headache, heat, and more flexibility.

The head is the key to the SR.

Personally I would put the VET against the LS or 2J for a legitimate comparison
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Old 11-24-2018, 06:33 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingtal0n View Post

ls V8 pros:
some cheap iron blocks are almost free and do 500-600rwhp with a valvespring and water injection turbo
the lighter, aluminum version supports even more 800rwhp and holds some kinda records (L33) still cheaper than a 2J and probably weighs less ("the new/next 2JZ")
Auto includes torque management factory for auto daily driver (ex. rain)

The stock Gen 3 iron blocks will hold up longer under FI. A local to me runs his 6.0 LQ4 at 10 lbs of boost and did a reliable 550rwhp on pump 93. LS's are also very easy to work on.

Gen 4 LS stuff (LS3, L98) are coming down in price now too. As a note, L33's aka the Aluminum 5.3 are also getting hard to find. If you want FI, run an iron block. Also; the OE ECU can be unlocked and re-flashed as if it were a stand alone unit, you just can't add in extra inputs/outputs.




ls cons:
the light ones are expensive Depends
the cheap ones are heavy Also depends, see below
the best auto transmission 4l80e is so heavy inside it limits economy, at 3000lbs it may be low as 25mpg, depends on gearing
8 spark plugs now, can you reach them all?
Etc....


Ok now add all the ones I missed or fix the sentences so they are true (and then vote on a best engine based on pros and cons)

Every now and again you'll find an LS1 (the aluminum 5.7) for as little as $900 for a short block. The LQ9 (iron 6.0 with flat top pistons) are kind of expensive ($1100 or so) for what you're getting.

I have no experience with the 4l60/80 in a sports car, so I have nothing to add there. That being said, the economical trans option is the CD00X conversion. A used, stock t56 in good working order is getting more expensive/hard to find. The TR6060 is prentiful, but expensive at around $3300 brand new.

Spark plug access depends entirely on header choice and the chassis you're putting it in. An LS in any s-chassis is easy to service provided that you do not use the CX Racing headers.

The next thing with the LS is making sure you run an adequate cooling system. Don't expect the mishi fan/shroud combo for the ka/sr to be enough to keep an LS cool. Ideally you'd want to run a true dual pass rad and the biggest Dual Derale fan system you can fit.
I added my points to OP's post in red. As far as real world experience, I have 200+ track hours on my LS1. Map tuned for a 233/239 cam on pump 93. Made a safe 380rwhp, And I have driven it up to 4 hours at a time on the street.. If it weren't for the cage and fuel cell, this would be a proper daily driver.



Quote:
Originally Posted by RalliartRsX View Post
Meh. VET, and get weight, the awesome flowing head and 30mpg. All said and done you'd be in it for the same as a 2J, but with less packaging headache, heat, and more flexibility.

The head is the key to the SR.

Personally I would put the VET against the LS or 2J for a legitimate comparison

Would you run the VET or JZ on pump 93 and expect long term reliability? I would say probably not. Us LS folks regularly make reliable power on pump 93. So for those reading this, also consider your fuel budget.
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Old 11-24-2018, 07:04 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bataangpinoy View Post





Would you run the VET or JZ on pump 93 and expect long term reliability? I would say probably not. Us LS folks regularly make reliable power on pump 93. So for those reading this, also consider your fuel budget.
Short answer Yes. The head flow on a VET means you can get away with much less boost to make just as much power no problems. The issue with the standard SR is the rocker arms. VET has no such issues.

350 WHP, unopened SR20DE on a 140K miles 9.5:1 $200 junkyard USDM engine. So yeah, reliable as hell. 2 years of track days (6-8 per season). Kept rev limit @ 7K and went to town. Car weight 2383 lbs soaking wet.

This was on my Sentra SE-R. So yeah, a properly tuned VET twill last @ 380 WHP no problem.

R comps on any LS is a minimum of a Accusump. Cost of entry is $$ for all three engine options.
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Old 11-26-2018, 07:20 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RalliartRsX View Post
1. Short answer Yes.


2. R comps on any LS is a minimum of a Accusump. Cost of entry is $$ for all three engine options.
1. Agreed. There is no reason for any engine to not be reliable on pump gas. It's all in the tune. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there with garbage tunes that will say that past 300whp and you'll start losing headgaskets. Utter nonsense. A proper tune and pump gas can be reliable at virtually any power level (with adequate hardware obviously).

2. Agreed, but: this is the problem I see with threads like this in general. There's good info, but the demands on the engine/chassis/fuel system/etc keep getting raised and by the end of the thread, it seems everyone needs a drysump and elaborate cooling system to be reliable. There needs to be a lot of clarification on "what" and "when" things need to be done if we're going to get into the topic of modifying oil sumps/drainback/coolant swirl pots/oil coolers/etc.

I'll add a list of pros and cons for VG engines (SOHC and DOHC) tonight. It's only fitting since I'm swapping one.
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Old 11-26-2018, 07:44 AM   #11
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People always state, " oh you can get a junkyard LS for pennies" blah blah blah. That is not what costs money. It is everything else associated with putting a LS into any car. One still has to buy headers, swap kit, clutch, driveshaft, electronics, oil pan, accessory kit blah blah blah. The costs add up exponentially........and that is if one is buying used.


And it's funny; the argument for getting a cheap junkyard LS is "tarrblooowww!" When any comparisons crops up in regards to LS owners . That should not be top priority of anything but a drag engine and is at the bottom of the list for 95% of the LS swap vehicles. It surely is an additional exponential cost if using reliable components and not shopping on eBay.

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Old 11-26-2018, 08:05 AM   #12
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Are we just gonna ignore the fact by far the best power for budget is built KA-T??? Just a mild built block can take mid 500s-600 which is more than enough. All engines from LS to SR to JZ all basically cost the same as far as good fast mods. Having decent manifold, top feed injectors, switching to e85, bigger fuel pump, spark standalone, trans swap, etc Most of us here arent making more than north of 500 for the average schassis. Anymore power and you're either full straight line racing or competing in pro am/tracking.

Its seems to me like this thread is more of humble brag for the LS instead of people saying why they like certain engines such as feel in the car, parts availability, community for the engine, cost, street/track potential, having AC, and so on.

Tbh Im for KA, I made 467whp/462tq stupid easy and its a daily on e85 with AC I get like maybe 12-14mpg with mix driving. Havent taken it to the track yet but building the motor myself, cost of everything with good parts it was fairly easy. I kinda wanted to do a swap but just getting the engine in the car for the amount of money I put in the KA I'd be sitting at what? Max 300-350whp on 5.3 iron block, stock 2jz or stock SR20 with bolt ons?

If I had to do another engine it be in another chassis. Either a SR20VET grip build shooting for bare minimum 550 whp or a reliable drift car with a stock 2jz with some bolt ons making at most 400whp

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Old 11-26-2018, 05:17 PM   #13
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^ I agree completely with this sentiment.
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Old 11-26-2018, 05:30 PM   #14
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Another pissing match about preference...yet again.
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Old 11-26-2018, 07:26 PM   #15
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I've haven't been around for years, but there is a whole new world of support for the KA. For me personally if there was this much aftermarket support 10-12 years ago I probably would have just built a KA-T.
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Old 11-26-2018, 10:27 PM   #16
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the sr20 weighs 200lbs less then the lsx so its just a more natural fit for the s13/s14 engine bay.

If I eye a 240 in the future the SR is the only motor I want.
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Old 11-26-2018, 11:48 PM   #17
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SOHC VG33E:

Pros:
1. Dirt cheap and immensely plentiful. They came in Xterras, Frontiers, Quests, Pathfinders, and Mercury Villagers.
2. Can handle 500wtq on the factory longblock. You don't even need headstuds
3. 3.3 liters means torque!
4. V6 format means good weight distribution
5. Relatively light ~380lbs
6. Compact
7. Bolts to Z31 turbo trans (30A), or Z32 trans (30A) with a flywheel adapter.
8. Legendary cam grinder Ed Iskenderian will regrind your cams for $150
9. Z32TT oil pump can be mounted with VG30DE crankshaft
10. Equal length exhaust manifolds and it sounds like a JZ and a longtube V8 are both in your engine bay screaming to be let out.
11. IMSA winning heritage
12. A ton of clutch options

Cons:
1. Needs cams and boost to make power
2. Oiling system is underwhelming and needs modification for track use
3. Pulling one from a commuter car means it's probably been treated poorly
4. Two valve heads don't flow that well
5. Factory manifolds sound like a tractor
6. Distributor can either be great or finicky
7. Fabrication required for swap
8. Comparatively weak aftermarket support

VG30DE(TT)

Pros:
1. IMSA championship winning heritage
2. VG30DETT oil pump is the bees knees
3. Heads flow quite well
4. V6 package means good weight distribution
5. Equal length manifolds and it sounds like an JZ with an attitude problem
6. Makes Hella torque and power
7. Coil on plug factory
8. Factory transmission is pretty strong with lots of clutch options
9. Strong aftermarket support
10. Hydraulic lifters

Cons:
1. Large and relatively heavy ~450 lbs IIRC
2. Four cams = $$$ for aftermarket
3. Oiling system is underwhelming
4. Factory turbos won't fit in s-chassis unless you use a Z32 crossmember and steering rack
5. Complex if you don't make it simple
6. Fabrication required for swap
7. Somewhat rare, only coming in the Z32 and J30 stateside.
8. Hydraulic lifters probably need cleaned and rebuilt
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Old 11-26-2018, 11:54 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sr20boostn20 View Post
I've haven't been around for years, but there is a whole new world of support for the KA. For me personally if there was this much aftermarket support 10-12 years ago I probably would have just built a KA-T.
Agreed. Now that the secret's out that you can drill and tap the block and head for 11 or 12mm headstuds and actually keep a headgasket in the thing, the possibilities look really awesome!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malik View Post
the sr20 weighs 200lbs less then the lsx so its just a more natural fit for the s13/s14 engine bay.

If I eye a 240 in the future the SR is the only motor I want.
Bruh, we all know it's closer to 50lbs if we're talking aluminum LS, and probably 30-40lbs if you sleeve the SR. Stop kidding yourself.
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Old 11-27-2018, 12:09 AM   #19
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im looking at different numbers then.
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Old 11-27-2018, 08:15 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX View Post
Agreed. Now that the secret's out that you can drill and tap the block and head for 11 or 12mm headstuds and actually keep a headgasket in the thing, the possibilities look really awesome!
Wait... wut?!?

I love KA'Ts, but I've never built one before. Could you elaborate a bit on this? I'm really interested.
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Old 11-28-2018, 07:15 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simmode1 View Post
Wait... wut?!?

I love KA'Ts, but I've never built one before. Could you elaborate a bit on this? I'm really interested.
Sure! As you probably know, KA's have M10 head studs. ARP's bottom line head studs are made of 8740 chromoly. The combo means that with really fast spooling turbos or with large power, the head studs actually stretch, lifting the head and causing all kinds of catastrophe.

To fix this, you simply drill the threads out of the block, and tap them for an M11 sized stud. Then you can use Evo 9 (IIRC) ARP 625+ headstuds and have much better clamp load. You must also drill the holes in the head bigger so there's no binding or oiling issues.

The hardcore guys drill them out and tap for M12, where you can use a VG30DE or RB26 stud, which come in ARP2000 or 625+. You're not going to need any more serious of a stud than this. I'm not sure if it's the same with the M11, but with the M12 studs, you actually have to bore the openings in the head where you access the nut, as this becomes too small for the required socket.

If you do these, make sure that you get the block torque plate honed with the studs at torque afterwards. You'd be amazed at how much the higher clamp load distorts the bore. I believe JWT hones with a torque plate and bellhousing bolted to the block.

These upgrades, combined with DLC VQ35 cam buckets, means you can run big cams and big power, and have a pretty bulletproof package.

KA's are cool.
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Old 11-28-2018, 07:32 AM   #22
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I'm posting these links here because they give a very good idea of the pros and cons of each engine, and they save someone from having to type out a book.

RB:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9XT9VTyi1o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqUDHwquH-w

1/2JZ:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4LYrbFgcZQ
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Old 11-28-2018, 03:00 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by RalliartRsX View Post
Short answer Yes. The head flow on a VET means you can get away with much less boost to make just as much power no problems. The issue with the standard SR is the rocker arms. VET has no such issues.

350 WHP, unopened SR20DE on a 140K miles 9.5:1 $200 junkyard USDM engine. So yeah, reliable as hell. 2 years of track days (6-8 per season). Kept rev limit @ 7K and went to town. Car weight 2383 lbs soaking wet.

This was on my Sentra SE-R. So yeah, a properly tuned VET twill last @ 380 WHP no problem.

R comps on any LS is a minimum of a Accusump. Cost of entry is $$ for all three engine options.
Dude that's awesome! Did you cap the redline for any particular reason other than longevity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX View Post

If you do these, make sure that you get the block torque plate honed with the studs at torque afterwards. You'd be amazed at how much the higher clamp load distorts the bore. I believe JWT hones with a torque plate and bellhousing bolted to the block.

These upgrades, combined with DLC VQ35 cam buckets, means you can run big cams and big power, and have a pretty bulletproof package.

KA's are cool.
Thanks for bringing that up! I would like to add in that if you're using any fastener that has a higher clamping load than OE that you should have the affected area looked at (in the very least). Wanna use ARP 2000 rod bolts? Get the rods spec'd and re-sized. ARP Main studs? Probably a good idea to get the crank mains line honed. Want to use ARP head studs? Have the block torque plated and honed.. Seen plenty of cylinder bores honed with a torque plate & marking fluid leave a decent shadow after the first pass, indicating that the cylinder wall is out of round. ESPECIALLY on the GM stuff.

This post from a gentleman at RPM Engines highlights LS cylinder wall distortion quite well. https://www.instagram.com/p/BjYS0Gigk9K/
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Old 11-28-2018, 03:13 PM   #24
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Strictly longevity. Tuned it myself and it was my first tuned turbo car, so a reliable engine is much more imperative than outright dyno numbers and turning it all into a hunking pile of metal.

Thing was a freckling riot and chased down many a C5 and C6 Vettes. But, trackday, so take that with a grain of salt considering the varying levels of driver ability.

But, it did do consistent 130-135 MPH consistent down Summit Point main straight so yeah, there's that lol
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Old 11-28-2018, 06:29 PM   #25
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My engine builder only uses a TQ plate and I don't know of any place that has been open more than 10yrs that doesn't. If they don't want to, it's because they are cheap fucks that don't want to buy one. It's not a hard task.
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Old 11-28-2018, 07:43 PM   #26
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My engine builder only uses a TQ plate and I don't know of any place that has been open more than 10yrs that doesn't. If they don't want to, it's because they are cheap fucks that don't want to buy one. It's not a hard task.
You're right, but not all machine shops are equal lol

My intent with my post was to address the DIY'ers who might just slap studs in there and call it good.
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Old 11-28-2018, 10:36 PM   #27
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You're right, but not all machine shops are equal lol

My intent with my post was to address the DIY'ers who might just slap studs in there and call it good.
I would never stud anything(Heads, Mains, Rods) without tq loading and making sure everything is still round and hone as necessary.
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Old 11-28-2018, 11:20 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX View Post
To fix this, you simply drill the threads out of the block, and tap them for an M11 sized stud. Then you can use Evo 9 (IIRC) ARP 625+ headstuds and have much better clamp load. You must also drill the holes in the head bigger so there's no binding or oiling issues.

The hardcore guys drill them out and tap for M12, where you can use a VG30DE or RB26 stud, which come in ARP2000 or 625+. You're not going to need any more serious of a stud than this. I'm not sure if it's the same with the M11, but with the M12 studs, you actually have to bore the openings in the head where you access the nut, as this becomes too small for the required socket.

Time serts are better suited than just re tapping the block for m11s. m10 major diameter is still bigger than the minor diameter of m11, so unless the m11 rethreading is perfectly timed to the original threads, it'll end up with loose threads. There's a timesert kit available that will rethread a block for m11 time serts. Also with the higher clamp loads, the ARP provided washers will still cause head lift since the diameter of the washers are smaller than oem. ARP's 200-5098 insert washers will solve that. Apparently that is an issue with a bunch of different engines at higher clamping loads.
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Old 11-29-2018, 07:01 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiSilS14 View Post
Time serts are better suited than just re tapping the block for m11s. m10 major diameter is still bigger than the minor diameter of m11, so unless the m11 rethreading is perfectly timed to the original threads, it'll end up with loose threads. There's a timesert kit available that will rethread a block for m11 time serts. Also with the higher clamp loads, the ARP provided washers will still cause head lift since the diameter of the washers are smaller than oem. ARP's 200-5098 insert washers will solve that. Apparently that is an issue with a bunch of different engines at higher clamping loads.
Well it seems one should just skip M11 then, as M11 time serts are larger in diameter than M12x1.25 threads, and I know that 1/2in studs are really close to too big for the block and you can start running into wall thickness issues depending on core shift.

Good call on the washers, I've never put them in a KA head but we use them in the 4G63 platform.
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Old 11-29-2018, 08:34 AM   #30
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Holy shit. Man, development for the KA lately has been so cool to see. Thanks for explaining, guys. Who do we owe thanks for these headstub/timesert discoveries for the KA? Did this come from Tomei or some KA-T community diehard?
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