U.S. Gun Control discussion

[1 88 U]

Originally Posted by ineedone

Jews with guns vs. the Nazi military? hmm... Jews still lose that one too. The guns would have had little to no effect on the holocaust. Remember it took 3 countries and a world war to stop the Nazis (not to mention they over ran the Russians who had guns, the polish who had guns, the french who had guns etc, etc, etc). But hey, the small minority of Jews would have stopped them with guns right? I swear the idiocy of these arguments is staggering.

If I were a Jew during the holocaust I'd rather die with dignity, gun a blazing than burn in an oven.

All of those stats don't mean shit because America has way to many fucking guns to go back. Once you realize that gun proliferation is a fantacy in this country we can begin to address the real problems. Poverty, war on drugs, inadequate health/mental health system, poor education, decreased access to higher learning, access to the arts.

[7RIFT0]

Originally Posted by onehundredoctane

That's just it, the government is trying to convince the public that are scared of guns that this legislation will get "illegal guns" off of the streets. ITWON'T. This whole thing is just one big scare tactic.

couldnt have said it any better

[usdm180sx]

They should do medical and criminal background checks for legit gun owners. If illegal gun owners are smart they wouldn't flash the fact that they have guns unless they are crazy or stupid. There is pretty much no way to regulate them.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by usdm180sx

They should do medical and criminal background checks for legit gun owners. If illegal gun owners are smart they wouldn't flash the fact that they have guns unless they are crazy or stupid. There is pretty much no way to regulate them.

Huh? So why violate the rights of gun owners?

Do I get to do a background check on a women wanting an abortion?

Can we do back ground checks on voters?

[usdm180sx]

Mental health and gun ownership is a valid concern. I'm talking about new gun buyers but at the same time I don't feel safe knowing that there are mentally unstable gun owners out there. What happens next time I go to the range and some unstable gun owner decides to lose it? I'm sure he will get shot down but what if he takes an innocent person out before that happens?

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by usdm180sx

Mental health and gun ownership is a valid concern. I'm talking about new gun buyers but at the same time I don't feel safe knowing that there are mentally unstable gun owners out there. What happens next time I go to the range and some unstable gun owner decides to lose it? I'm sure he will get shot down but what if he takes an innocent person out before that happens?

You going to do hardly check ups? What if I've never been to a doctor in my life? Undiagnosed? What about devekoping issues latter in life?

Sounds like a mental health issue and is shoveling completely independent of gun ownership.

Buying a gun should not be the Troigger point for the government to commit you.

Also....ok your nuts and want a gun.... now what?

[usdm180sx]

Originally Posted by Corbic

You going to do hardly check ups? What if I've never been to a doctor in my life? Undiagnosed? What about devekoping issues latter in life?

Sounds like a mental health issue and is shoveling completely independent of gun ownership.

Buying a gun should not be the Troigger point for the government to commit you.

Also....ok your nuts and want a gun.... now what?

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. This is just me, but people who are mentally unstable shouldn't be able to own guns.

Who said anything about being committed? They just wouldn't be able to own a gun. If you're mentally unstable and you want a gun too bad. Adam Lanza was mentally unstable and look what happened. So were the majority of the other shooters in the other incidents. Did you see the video the shooter posted from Virginia Tech? What about that father and son picking people off in DC?

You sound like you want everybody to be able to have a gun no matter what their state of mind and IMO that's not safe. Only RESPONSIBLE people should be allowed to own guns. What is there to argue?

[K_style]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Can we do back ground checks on voters?

That, at least check if they are eligible for voting though..

Well you get the idea..

[FaLKoN240]

What I find interesting are these:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...w=1440&bih=775

How often are gun buy backs happening in your area?

The state is buying up citizen's legal guns for $100 per rifle.

They're using the poor economic state and scare tactics to guilt legal gun owners into selling their guns for gas money. -_-

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by k_style

that, at least check if they are eligible for voting though..

Well you get the idea..

thats violating their rights!! How dare you ask for id and discriminate and discourage thema!!!!

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by usdm180sx

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. This is just me, but people who are mentally unstable shouldn't be able to own guns.

Define unstable? Should we do credit checks and employment checks as well. Does depression count as mental illness that would ban you from gun ownership? What about ADD? Autism? Social anxiety? Homosexuality? Nazis?

Originally Posted by usdm180sx

Who said anything about being committed? They just wouldn't be able to own a gun. If you're mentally unstable and you want a gun too bad. Adam Lanza was mentally unstable and look what happened. ?

Exactly. So you go in the store... they say "no gun for you"... then what? Your saying someone is to crazy to own a gun because they are a danger to society... so you just let that danger go? What happens when they get some fertilizer and diesel fuel? Also, Adam never bought a gun... he killed someone and took theirs.

Originally Posted by usdm180sx

You sound like you want everybody to be able to have a gun no matter what their state of mind and IMO that's not safe. Only RESPONSIBLE people should be allowed to own guns. What is there to argue?

Only responsible people should be aloud to vote... why does the country have a problem that? Only responsible people should be aloud to drink.. but we don't do nothing about that.

Define - responsible?

Where do you draw the line?

[usdm180sx]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Define unstable? Should we do credit checks and employment checks as well. Does depression count as mental illness that would ban you from gun ownership? What about ADD? Autism? Social anxiety? Homosexuality? Nazis?



Exactly. So you go in the store... they say "no gun for you"... then what? Your saying someone is to crazy to own a gun because they are a danger to society... so you just let that danger go? What happens when they get some fertilizer and diesel fuel? Also, Adam never bought a gun... he killed someone and took theirs.





Only responsible people should be aloud to vote... why does the country have a problem that? Only responsible people should be aloud to drink.. but we don't do nothing about that.

Define - responsible?

Where do you draw the line?

Unstable: Someone who is likely to harm themselves or others without a weapon.

It's easier to kill someone with a gun than with fertilizer

Exactly. Adam never bought a gun but look what he did. Like I said, there is no way to control that unless they do a mental health check for immediate family members too.

If an irresponsible person votes the damage won't immediately get someone killed. If an irresponsible person gets a gun the likelihood of someone getting killed sooner is more so.

Everything needs regulation or there will be complete chaos. Your posts seem to lean towards no regulation at all. It is impossible to have a society without laws in place. I am just trying to minimize casualties with sensible regulations.

Why do you feel that mentally unstable people should be allowed to own guns, anyway?

[bc.]

Originally Posted by usdm180sx

This is just me, but people who are mentally unstable shouldn't be able to own guns.

Or drive cars, right? I don't want anyone bipolar or on medication for depression behind the wheel. I would argue that anyone you feel shouldn't own a gun because of mental state should also not own a car or have a drivers license. People that drive 40mph in the fast lane or drive 6 feet from my bumper when I am going 70mph scare the shit out of me...

Originally Posted by usdm180sx

Exactly. Adam never bought a gun but look what he did. Like I said, there is no way to control that unless they do a mental health check for immediate family members too.

So now if someone has a brother who is retarded or 'unstable' they will also not be allowed to own a gun? Not sure what you are getting at. The only way I think I could agree with you is to increase penalties for those who indirectly supply a firearm to someone who commits a crime with it. Pending the fact that the firearm was not stored in a safe or something (if the dude drilled a lock to the safe to gain access... well, I don't know what you are supposed to do about that).

Originally Posted by usdm180sx

Who said anything about being committed? They just wouldn't be able to own a gun. If you're mentally unstable and you want a gun too bad. Adam Lanza was mentally unstable and look what happened. So were the majority of the other shooters in the other incidents. Did you see the video the shooter posted from Virginia Tech? What about that father and son picking people off in DC?

This approach of mental stability is a foolish way to solve anything. In statistics you would get an F because you are chasing the outliers while leaving the vast majority of the cases untouched. You want to lower gun violence, tackle the big situation first, example: gang violence. End of discussion. And until a politician actually says that, I will know they remain ignorant, stupid, or are chasing some other agenda.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by usdm180sx

Unstable: Someone who is likely to harm themselves or others without a weapon.

So... how do you determine that. Do I need to have a psyche exame before I buy a gun? How are you going to prove the validity of that test? Make everyone take it for a few years and buy guns as normal, then go back and see how many of them killed someone?

Originally Posted by usdm180sx

It's easier to kill someone with a gun than with fertilizer

Adam killed 26 people, McVeigh killed 168.

Originally Posted by usdm180sx

Exactly. Adam never bought a gun but look what he did. Like I said, there is no way to control that unless they do a mental health check for immediate family members too.

So I can't buy a gun in Oklahoma because my cousin in Florida that is depressed?

What about my neighbor? I can't own a gun because I live in a rough neighborhood? I mean with people wanting to list gun owners online... then what?

Originally Posted by usdm180sx

Why do you feel that mentally unstable people should be allowed to own guns, anyway?

I've never said that. I've asked you many times what is "mentally unstable", how do you identify that and what do you do about it when you do find that.

Your buddy Adam was never labeled "mentally unstable"... he was never diagnosed... so even with new laws, he could have bought a gun.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by bc.

You want to lower gun violence, tackle the big situation first, example: gang violence. End of discussion. And until a politician actually says that, I will know they remain ignorant, stupid, or are chasing some other agenda.

But drug and gang violence kills black and brown children... children that no one give a shit about, even a black president.

Kill a bunch of white people in a movie theater or shoot some white kids at school and OMFG ban guns.

[usdm180sx]

Originally Posted by bc.

Or drive cars, right? I don't want anyone bipolar or on medication for depression behind the wheel. I would argue that anyone you feel shouldn't own a gun because of mental state should also not own a car or have a drivers license. People that drive 40mph in the fast lane or drive 6 feet from my bumper when I am going 70mph scare the shit out of me...


So now if someone has a brother who is retarded or 'unstable' they will also not be allowed to own a gun? Not sure what you are getting at. The only way I think I could agree with you is to increase penalties for those who indirectly supply a firearm to someone who commits a crime with it. Pending the fact that the firearm was not stored in a safe or something (if the dude drilled a lock to the safe to gain access... well, I don't know what you are supposed to do about that).



This approach of mental stability is a foolish way to solve anything. In statistics you would get an F because you are chasing the outliers while leaving the vast majority of the cases untouched. You want to lower gun violence, tackle the big situation first, example: gang violence. End of discussion. And until a politician actually says that, I will know they remain ignorant, stupid, or are chasing some other agenda.

Not letting mentally unstable people drive cars actually isn't a bad idea. That would prevent a lot of alcoholics from getting drivers licenses. Those who drive without a license and get caught can get locked up. I got an A in stats btw lol. And if you think gang members are mentally stable you get an F in mental health. It's not foolish. It's actually really easy to implement. Just require a mental health check moving forward. And require all registered gun owners to get checked as well.

But it's obvious there are a lot of people on here who do not agree with me and to those of you I say: "I respect your opinion, so please respect mine."

[usdm180sx]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Your buddy Adam was never labeled "mentally unstable"... he was never diagnosed... so even with new laws, he could have bought a gun.

I never knew Adam so why do you call him my "buddy?"

[usdm180sx]

Originally Posted by Corbic

So I can't buy a gun in Oklahoma becase my cousin in Florida that is depressed?

Cousins are not IMMEDIATE family members

[usdm180sx]

Originally Posted by Corbic

So... how do you determine that. Do I need to have a psyche exame before I buy a gun? How are you going to prove the validity of that test? Make everyone take it for a few years and buy guns as normal, then go back and see how many of them killed someone?

There are a few established tests. They don't have to reinvent the wheel. Anything that identifies conditions where a person might hurt himself or others without a weapon. I don't really feel like googling them all right now but if you want I can later.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by usdm180sx

Not letting mentally unstable people drive cars actually isn't a bad idea. That would prevent a lot of alcoholics from getting drivers licenses. Those who drive without a license and get caught can get locked up.

So how are they going to hold down a job and support their families? Don't we already have an overcrowding problem in our prisons? Now you want to fill them with depressed people who are trying to get to work so they can take care of their kids?

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by usdm180sx

There are a few established tests. They don't have to reinvent the wheel. Anything that identifies conditions where a person might hurt himself or others without a weapon. I don't really feel like googling them all right now but if you want I can later.

So what, you have to take a 4 hour test before buying a gun?

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by usdm180sx

Cousins are not IMMEDIATE family members

What is an "immediate" family member?

Someone that shares a residence? Someone related by birth or marriage? What if I'm buying that gun to protect myself from them...

What if I already bought a gun and them my wife goes fucking batty? Are the feds then going to come and take it from me? How would they even know?

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by Corbic

So how are they going to hold down a job and support their families? Don't we already have an overcrowding problem in our prisons? Now you want to fill them with depressed people who are trying to get to work so they can take care of their kids?

Not to mention that now you are putting barriers up that will prevent people from seeking treatment.

So I'm depressed, I hate my life.... but now I don't dare go to a doctor because you are going to take my license, take my guns.... I'll lose my job, and shit, while we're at it, why not just take my kids and pets as well?

What ever happen to patient + doctor confidentiality and de-stigmatizing mental illness?

We should be HELPING people get help to make them better... not punishing them for things beyond their control.

[bc.]

Originally Posted by usdm180sx

Not letting mentally unstable people drive cars actually isn't a bad idea. That would prevent a lot of alcoholics from getting drivers licenses. Those who drive without a license and get caught can get locked up. I got an A in stats btw lol. And if you think gang members are mentally stable you get an F in mental health. It's not foolish. It's actually really easy to implement. Just require a mental health check moving forward. And require all registered gun owners to get checked as well.

But it's obvious there are a lot of people on here who do not agree with me and to those of you I say: "I respect your opinion, so please respect mine."

I do respect your opinion, this is good discussion without any pissing

Now back to the car thing. The mental health thing isn't going to premptively stop car accidents, this isn't gonna be some 'Minority Report' thing, it will be fought all the way through. The same will go for firearms.

I think gang bangers could easily pass as 'mentally healthy'. Their lives are dictated by the society they live in and what they do is rewarded by others they look up to, just like my boss rewarding me for getting those damn TPS reports in on time. We are, however, digressing.

[AFSil80]

An assault weapons ban will not get illegal guns off the street. Quite the contrary, most legal gun owners would probably ignore it.

I knew people who procured AK47's during the original ban. Creating a law won't stop the flow of guns. It won't stop the "mass murders" that so conveniently take place in gun free zones. What a noble concept.

[Mofuhcka]

Originally Posted by Corbic

But drug and gang violence kills black and brown children... children that no one give a shit about, even a black president.

Kill a bunch of white people in a movie theater or shoot some white kids at school and OMFG ban guns.

THIS. Kids and young adults are getting killed DAILY in Chicago and Detroit, yet I havent heard anyone talk about them. If you tackle gang violence, there goes a majority of the gun related deaths that happen each year.

[S14DB]

Originally Posted by ineedone

Ok... for real, last post.






Well, no. I replied with an article that cited the police chief of Scottland (or whatever) saying the most pressing violent crime they are dealing with is knife crime... Id rather face a knife then a gun. I think I have a better chance of living there.

FactCheck.org : Gun Rhetoric vs. Gun Facts

Hmm... we have more guns, yet we have more crime and oh noo... more homicide.



Here are better statistics about crime rates NationMaster - Crime stats: United Kingdom vs United States

Take a look at the Rape column. In the United states nearly 54% of rapes go unreported. Reporting Rates | RAINN | Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network

So even these statistics are skewed. But hey, we have the most guns and looky looky the most crime. Total crimes statistics - countries compared - NationMaster Crime

Anything else I am missing here?

We have more people. Look at per 100,000 figures.

[bc.]

Originally Posted by S14DB

We have more people. Look at per 100,000 figures.

I'm sure he has, but those figures don't lead him to any of the conclusions he is looking for so he finds others to post which he thinks do.

[usdm180sx]

That is definitely a problem. I've been doing a lot of research on conspiracy theories lately and one "secret society" has a solution. They will "reduce" the current population from 7 billion people down to 500 million through planned "wars and disasters" and implant the remaining population with RFID chips. These chips will contain information about EVERYTHING. Bank accounts, medical history, credit history, driving records, social security, GUN RECORDS, etc. The chip will be used to transact EVERYTHING. If you refuse to be plugged into the system you won't be able to buy food or do anything else. 500 million people is a lot more manageable. Coincidentally, I still think 9/11 and the Sandy Hook shootings were both staged, among other incidents.

This sounds crazy, but what other solutions are there? All we are doing is going back and forth over how this and that will or won't work but NO SOLUTION.

The thing that scared me is that the RFID chips will be planted either in the person's right hand or their forehead. Skip to 2:20 and listen if you don't want to watch the whole vid:

Mark Of The Beast the man who Designed the RFID Chip ! Part 1 - YouTube

And then I read THIS:

Revelations 13:16-18:
It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.

To me, this is too much of a coincidence. Anyway, I don't want to diverge from this discussion, but I think we need to look beyond just the topic of "gun control," and look at the topic of "total control." Google "New World Order."

[1 88 U]

Originally Posted by Mofuhcka

THIS. Kids and young adults are getting killed DAILY in Chicago and Detroit, yet I havent heard anyone talk about them. If you tackle gang violence, there goes a majority of the gun related deaths that happen each year.

To decrease gang violence you must end the war on drugs, decriminalize and regulate drugs and expand impoverished youth opportunities.