JWT vs Enthalpy ECU comparison dyno results!! *Another* 400 whp CodyAce Built Car

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

A Dyno Jet and yes e85 blah blah blah.

Please stop trying to prove yourself. You're trying much too hard. 400whp is easily doable on a stock, good condition bottom end.

Blown up engines are not necessary if you tune it from rich to lean while staying in safe territory.

[mattsil80wis]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

A Dyno Jet and yes e85 would be the way to go if you can get it in your area. I tuned my car on shell 93 v power and that is all I really can run with it. Differences in gas can make a big difference in the way our cars perform. E85 is for sure the way to go but I just can not get it here and that sucks maybe in a few years. Another thing too is you guys have built motors and I am running the stock bottom end. It has held together quite nicely but I would not really like to throw 400+whp at it and watch it die eventually.

I know to learn many of you guys have blow your motors up for fun but I do not want to watch a 3 grand sr motor grenade in front of me. They have come down a lot but that is what I paid 3 years ago.

cody and i have stock bottom ends, stock heads...well we have cp pistons but that is to help with detonation...cody ran his old motor fully stock including the pistons...the only reason why it blew up was because an injector lifted and went lean in cyl 3....you think we like blowing up motors? if so you are a fool

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

one thing you also have to consider is you are dyno tuning these cars for power. I did the same thing when I tuned mine but my tuner also hopped in the car and street tuned it with me making full 4th gear pulls to get the most out of it. It smoothed a lot of things out that could not be seen or done on the dyno. Additionally, why I like the Power FC is it will tell you when you go into dangerous knock and will pull timing a little so you do not go BOOM.

I feel I have a really good grasp of PFC and how it works, and all of the bells and whistles (I have Datalogit)....

But I have NEVER seen any option or anything where you can setup it up to pull timing due to knock readings....

Where did you hear/see that?

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by codyace

While I can grasp your point, wouldn't we also need to figure in a 'time vs RPM' aspec to this? Having more power in a gear is nice, but lets just assume 3rd gear is a 2.5 ratio, and 4 is a 1.0. Even though you'd think the mechanic advantage in power production vs gear would be better in 3rd, could we also not argue that the time in gear in that 1.0 4th be better for total speed? (If this makes any sense)

Or is it just another factor in it all? Or am I just completly wrong hehe.

I could be wrong, but my perception of Newton's laws is that the fastest way to get from point A to point B is to maximize the INTEGRAL of acceleration over the entire trajectory.

This essentially means that you want the most possible acceleration at any point in time possible.

I have done the calculations based upon my dyno chart (and other peoples' will be similar)...

For example.....


Let's say my "dyno" shows that I make 300 ft-lbs at 6000 RPM and 250 ft-lbs at 8000 RPM.



If you do the caluclations, you would find the following "theoretical" accelerations in each gear (in ft/sec^2)...with stock SR/KA tranny and stock USDM 240 4.083 final drive:

6000 RPM (peak torque)

1 - 42.39
2 - 24.27
3 - 16.58
4 - 12.68
5 - 9.68

8000 RPM

1 - 35.81
2 - 20.51
3 - 14.10
4 - 10.78
5 - 8.18


Notice that the acceleration at redline in any gear is ALWAYS higher than the acceleration in the lower gear at the lower RPM (even at peak torque in that lower gear...).


This means that the OPTIMAL way to get from point A to point B fastest is to redline EVERY gear.


Now, in some cars, the torque drops off MUCH faster before redline....in CERTAIN scenarios, it MAY be beneficial to shift before redline.

This would require that the torque made at the NEW RPM (upon upshifting) multiplied by the ratio of the NEW GEAR RATIO/OLD GEAR RATIO is higher than the torque being made if you had just stayed in the lower gear.

Example:

2nd gear is 1.902
3rd gear is 1.308

Ratio of 2nd/3rd is 1.45!!!!

This means if you are in 2nd, and your torque starts dropping off....for it to be beneficial for you to upshift, the NEW torque you would make in 3rd upon upshifting would need to be 45% higher than the current torque you are making in 2nd.

So even if your torque drops off quickly and you are only making 200 ft-lbs in 2nd, you would need to make 290 ft-lbs at whatever RPM you WOULD be in 3rd if you upshifting in order for it to be beneficial to shift.

Summary

Like I said....with GT2871R setups and the shapes of the torque curves they produce out to, say, 8000 RPM or maybe even 8500 RPM, it is ALWAYS beneficial to just keep revving out in the lower gear....



As you can see, even at redline, the lower gear always has better acceleration then the next highest gear at it's PEAK acceleration point (6000 RPM)

[PoorMans180SX]

What you're saying is theoretically all good and true, but in the real world both on and off track you have to deal with different speeds and loadings. You can't always come in and go out of a corner while redlining in a certain gear.

This is where the broad powerband comes into play. This way, when you can't come into a corner in an optimal gear and/or rpm, the broad torque curve will get you out faster than if you've sacrificed that for peak power.

That is the reason I'm sticking with a .63 2871R until I can upgrade to a twin-scroll setup.

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

What you're saying is theoretically all good and true, but in the real world both on and off track you have to deal with different speeds and loadings. You can't always come in and go out of a corner while redlining in a certain gear.

This is where the broad powerband comes into play. This way, when you can't come into a corner in an optimal gear and/or rpm, the broad torque curve will get you out faster than if you've sacrificed that for peak power.

That is the reason I'm sticking with a .63 2871R until I can upgrade to a twin-scroll setup.

I agree with you on the whole practicality thing, but I really feel like in this guy's case (4x4le or whatever), he can drastically extend his powerband WITHOUT sacrificing very much at all down low, simply by adding cams and springs/retainers.

If he is so concerned with "midrange", he should NOT have the Greddy IM....just ask SteveShadows his opinion on that.

If you are going to go with the Greddy IM, which already slows your spoolup, you might as well add cams, which aren't really going to further hurt spoolup but WILL dramatically help topend and allow you to safely rev out much higher than OEM cams.

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by jspaeth

I agree with you on the whole practicality thing, but I really feel like in this guy's case (4x4le or whatever), he can drastically extend his powerband WITHOUT sacrificing very much at all down low, simply by adding cams and springs/retainers.

If he is so concerned with "midrange", he should NOT have the Greddy IM....just ask SteveShadows his opinion on that.

If you are going to go with the Greddy IM, which already slows your spoolup, you might as well add cams, which aren't really going to further hurt spoolup but WILL dramatically help topend and allow you to safely rev out much higher than OEM cams.

You make a good point.

[HemiCharger]

The point is that you have blown up motors and had to redo things to get to where you are. I elected to not go that route since I make enough power to kill Mustang GTs, Maros and Challengers. Where I live, a Mustang is like a Civic, everyone has one and loves to modify them. The new coyote 5.0 could be a different story. They are bringing the big power back to the Mustang.

Also you all have said that a board usable power band is better so you are in agreement. However, why not extrude hone the intake manifold like codyace and I have done to the exhaust manifold? The exhaust manifold came out supreme and will last a lot longer than the Tomei, I use to run. It would be interesting to see the gains. Cody was I thought suppose to have a dyno sheet comparing the two but I do not know if that ever got done?

I am older than most of the scene and drive a modified S14 -- also I do not subscribe to ImportTuner but the Nissan Sport Quarter Mag.

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

The point is that you have blown up motors and had to redo things to get to where you are.

Wrong again. JWT and Enthalpy tunes will not blow engines. This is not "guess-and-hope-your-engine-doesn't-blow". It's tuning, there is a right and safe way to go about things.

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

I elected to not go that route since I make enough power to kill Mustang GTs, Maros and Challengers. Where I live, a Mustang is like a Civic, everyone has one and loves to modify them. The new coyote 5.0 could be a different story. They are bringing the big power back to the Mustang.

No one cares.

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

Also you all have said that a board usable power band is better so you are in agreement. However, why not extrude hone the intake manifold like codyace and I have done to the exhaust manifold?

Why don't you try it and find out?

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

I am older than most of the scene and drive a modified S14 -- also I do not subscribe to ImportTuner but the Nissan Sport Quarter Mag.

Nissan Sport sucks.

[HemiCharger]

Until a ROM tune gets a neat little commander that eliminates 4-5 analog gauges and monitors things like Knock, A/F, RPM, Speed, temperature etc etc. then the POWER FC still reigns supreme.

How could not make the same amount of power or better with a standalone than what you make with a ROM. You all make it sound like a ROM > Standalone which any tuner knows is not true.

If you have to go ROM tunes -- I am guessing almost everyone is happy with the JWT better than the other ROM options out there. How do you ever know that you are getting spark knock or not once you get into high boost with it? The damage would be done before you ever knew what happened?

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

Until a ROM tune gets a neat little commander that eliminates 4-5 analog gauges and monitors things like Knock, A/F, RPM, Speed, temperature etc etc. then the POWER FC still reigns supreme.

How could not make the same amount of power or better with a standalone than what you make with a ROM. You all make it sound like a ROM > Standalone which any tuner knows is not true.

If you have to go ROM tunes -- I am guessing almost everyone is happy with the JWT better than the other ROM options out there. How do you ever know that you are getting spark knock or not once you get into high boost with it? The damage would be done before you ever knew what happened?

I agree with what you are saying.

At the same time, the guys that do these tunes are legit EXPERTS.

Like they have tested out X cams, X manifold, etc etc etc and know how everything effects everything.

That beings said, I would imagine that the ONLY way they could guarantee they aren't gonng blow anything would be to always err (how much, I dunno) on the side of safeness in terms of spark advance and AFRs....

I'm wondering if someone blows their motor, what are the legal scenarios? I mean, if you do a schlock job of putting your shit together and your CAS is off a bit, then you put in a JWT ROM and blow your motor, that's your fault.

But at the same time, there are natural variances to IDENTICALLY setup motors.

The only way around this (I assume) is for the tune to be pretty darn safe.

[HemiCharger]

Originally Posted by jspaeth

I agree with what you are saying.

At the same time, the guys that do these tunes are legit EXPERTS.

Like they have tested out X cams, X manifold, etc etc etc and know how everything effects everything.

That beings said, I would imagine that the ONLY way they could guarantee they aren't gonng blow anything would be to always err (how much, I dunno) on the side of safeness in terms of spark advance and AFRs....

I'm wondering if someone blows their motor, what are the legal scenarios? I mean, if you do a schlock job of putting your shit together and your CAS is off a bit, then you put in a JWT ROM and blow your motor, that's your fault.

But at the same time, there are natural variances to IDENTICALLY setup motors.

The only way around this (I assume) is for the tune to be pretty darn safe.

yeah and almost all tuners go to the safe side. I bought some remanufactured douchewerk injectors and they busted loose and ruined my engine. I got lucky though that it happened all at once and did not do any damage. I now run Nismo 740s and all is good. Of course some people will talk about how Doucheworks is a good company but not for me. I could have gotten a lawsuit for a new motor ready for them since I have friends that are attorneys. A product liability suit is a hard thing to prove though and you would have spent more money than it would have cost to fix it to begin with. I have no doubt that JWT are experts and they know their stuff. I wonder if they would tune a standalone? I mean a tune is a tune is a tune so their knowledge should be able to transfer over to a Datalogit table or an AEM table.

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

yeah and almost all tuners go to the safe side. I bought some remanufactured douchewerk injectors and they busted loose and ruined my engine. I got lucky though that it happened all at once and did not do any damage. I now run Nismo 740s and all is good. Of course some people will talk about how Doucheworks is a good company but not for me. I could have gotten a lawsuit for a new motor ready for them since I have friends that are attorneys. A product liability suit is a hard thing to prove though and you would have spent more money than it would have cost to fix it to begin with. I have no doubt that JWT are experts and they know their stuff. I wonder if they would tune a standalone? I mean a tune is a tune is a tune so their knowledge should be able to transfer over to a Datalogit table or an AEM table.

They could definitely tune a standalone, to some extent.

Base fuel and timing maps would be cake.

The issue may be with the additional correction factors, and also, with PFC, you don't have any control over certain idle stuff related to the IACV.

They definitely would know HOW to do it, but they probably wouldn't be able to send you a "complete" tune, bc the correction stuff in the PFC is probably not (?) the same as the ROM tune.

Just my "guess"

[S13 curtis]

Originally Posted by 4x4le

At the end of the day a custom tune is still better. However I will agree that today for the people that live in areas where they cant find a tuner, these 2 are GREAT options. I would have never said something like that 2 years ago!

Anyways,

Did this today with my sr20det.



9:1 cp pistons
eagle rods
stock head and cams with greddy ras
greddy im
n15 tb
jgy fuel rail
msd 72lb injectors
dual 255lph walbros
nismo fpr at 4bar
gt2871r .86 @24psi
jgy light flywheel
e85 only
and NISTUNE
Tuned by yours truly

I really wanted to spend more time but I drove the car to the dyno and I didnt bring any extra fuel. I know there is allot of room for improvement down low but I just didnt have enough fuel to make it back if I stayed on the dyno any longer.
Im impressed. I havent seen such numbers on a sr with that turbo.

Damn, nice numbers man. Looks like your gonna be my competition lol. Im also running E85 but your exhaust side is a little bigger then mine i have .72 hotside and i've got Tomei 270 cams. I would think your injectors would be maxed out at 24psi and E-85 unless you turned up the fuel pressure, my bad jus noticed that you were at 4 bar. im prolly going to shoot for 25-26 psi with the external gate on E-85 and rev possibly to 8k. im still impressed for your numbers with stock cams.

[4x4le]

^^ at those boost ranges Im guessing your not going to see any much more peak hp. I would really be interested in going with an rpm independent boost controller to run higher boost down low and taper it off up high if I were you instead of just setting it at 28psi.

This thread is great. I want to apologize to the op because it has been derailed mostly due to one of my posts but the conversations have been great (aside from a few that are not on par).

I would like to add that the greddy IM came with my engine. I bought the car around 5 years ago and it was put together really poorly but the parts it came with was double what I paid for it so all I had to do was rip it apart and do it right, and then upgrade certain things to my liking (such as the suspension and build the motor ect).

Another thing about blowing engines. NO ENGINE I HAVE EVER TUNED HAS POPPED. I have popped this sr though, when it was on a JWT tune. Detenation was very apparent but that was a few years ago and it seems as if he is doing a much better job now.

I do plan on doing some more tuning on my setup either monday or tuesday and the low end should look much better. I pulled 80whp out of the base tune I set up for the dyno and my only focus was up top. Now im going to be focusing on the midrange and results should be similar. There is also a trick to helping spool e85 turbo setups, and I will implement that in this tune.


As for the the guy saying that standalones are always better than a rom tune, show me ANY dyno graph where someone has a 2871r on a sr with more hp than me and we will just assume its tuned on a PFC for your sake and then you win. Otherwise Ill just stick to my analog gauges.

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by 4x4le

^^ at those boost ranges Im guessing your not going to see any much more peak hp. I would really be interested in going with an rpm independent boost controller to run higher boost down low and taper it off up high if I were you instead of just setting it at 28psi.

This thread is great. I want to apologize to the op because it has been derailed mostly due to one of my posts but the conversations have been great (aside from a few that are not on par).

I would like to add that the greddy IM came with my engine. I bought the car around 5 years ago and it was put together really poorly but the parts it came with was double what I paid for it so all I had to do was rip it apart and do it right, and then upgrade certain things to my liking (such as the suspension and build the motor ect).

Another thing about blowing engines. NO ENGINE I HAVE EVER TUNED HAS POPPED. I have popped this sr though, when it was on a JWT tune. Detenation was very apparent but that was a few years ago and it seems as if he is doing a much better job now.

I do plan on doing some more tuning on my setup either monday or tuesday and the low end should look much better. I pulled 80whp out of the base tune I set up for the dyno and my only focus was up top. Now im going to be focusing on the midrange and results should be similar. There is also a trick to helping spool e85 turbo setups, and I will implement that in this tune.


As for the the guy saying that standalones are always better than a rom tune, show me ANY dyno graph where someone has a 2871r on a sr with more hp than me and we will just assume its tuned on a PFC for your sake and then you win. Otherwise Ill just stick to my analog gauges.

1) Electronic boost controller is always better, manual sucks. How can you know in advance what the boost vs. RPM profile will be? You can't, AND you have no control over it.

With a good EBC (I love the AVC-R), you can explicitly dial in the duties at different RPMs to give whatever the hell boost vs. RPM you want.

2) That is a completely unfair/misleading statement. Show me someone with an extrude-honed turbine housing AND exhaust manifold AND JWT S3 cams AND greddy IM AND upgraded pistons and/or rods.......

AND a PowerFC?

There isn't anyone on here that I know of with that setup and a PFC. (I am considering in the near future going with the EWG-44 special turbine housing with external gate, and may due the extrude honing, but building the bottom end won't happen for a long time.....and GOD do I need a better tune).

That being said, anything that the ROM tune can do, can be done as well or better with a standalone.


The key to your setup making so much power (E85) and Cody's and the like lie NOT in the type of tune (ROM vs. Standalone) but the quality of the tune and the specific setup/parts.


Cody's setup or yours with a lot of dyno time and a Standalone could make as much or more power than they are now.


I am not knocking the ROM tune, man, I am just staying stop making it like the ROM tune is the REASON for your numbers.....that is so misleading.

[4x4le]

im not sure you understand what I was saying, or im not sure if I understand what your saying with the last 2 posts.
I was talking to the hemi guy I believe with what you bolded. Im also not trying to make it seem like the rom tune was the reason for my power, I would like to pat myself on the back for that and not the ecu.

I use a greddy profec ebc, not a manual. I hate mbc's.

The boost controller comment I made was directed at s13curtis as a suggestions to use a boost controller like your avc-r instead of just setting the boost at 28psi because up top that would surely not be effecient.

I have been awake too long and maybe should have refrained from posting since it has caused some confusion.

Ill be sure to post my next sheet when I get to doing some more tuning on this setup, hopefully a vid too.

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by 4x4le

The boost controller comment I made was directed at s13curtis as a suggestions to use a boost controller like your avc-r instead of just setting the boost at 28psi because up top that would surely not be effecient.

Yes!

I really think a lot of people don't understand this tho.

If your wastegate spring is let's say 15 psi....

The wastegate does not ALL OF A SUDDEN open when boost hits 15 psi. it is FULLY open at 15 psi.

That means that while you are spooling the turbo up, the wastegate slowly begins opening, and is then fully open at 15 psi.

This HURTS spool up.

Ideally, you want the wastegate COMPLETELY shut just until that very last second when it hits your target boost.

You can only do this with an electronic boost controller.

If you set your MAX boost with a manual boost controller, then the transient behavior (spool up) will be way sub-optimal.

If you try to tighten it to make it spool faster, you will overboost your target.

Again, you can't decouple transient boost behavior from steady state boost value when using an MBC....

[4x4le]

I have tried to tell people this but they ususally come back with "but I can make a mbc for a few bucks"

I hate that. If your a cheapo then you dont need a turbo anything.

Having this conversation does have me wanting to check something though...... I want to make sure my adjustable actuator is tight....

[mattsil80wis]

another reason why 4x4le makes such good power is because of the E85...it allows him to run more boost and timing safely

cody and i run pump gas (93 octane) and the tunes are set for 91 octane (in case there is not 93 if we are out driving)

ROM tune is def better than PFC because i can spend 600 bucks on the tune and another 150 on guages...so not only is my car tuned very well (with launch control/meth injection maps), but i also have the basic gauges that i will need (boost/vac, oil press, and water temp, afr)

dont the knock sensors get turned off on the sr's after a certain rpm?

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by mattsil80wis

another reason why 4x4le makes such good power is because of the E85...it allows him to run more boost and timing safely

cody and i run pump gas (93 octane) and the tunes are set for 91 octane (in case there is not 93 if we are out driving)

ROM tune is def better than PFC because i can spend 600 bucks on the tune and another 150 on guages...so not only is my car tuned very well (with launch control/meth injection maps), but i also have the basic gauges that i will need (boost/vac, oil press, and water temp, afr)

dont the knock sensors get turned off on the sr's after a certain rpm?

That is the kind of statement that is creating arguments in this thread

Cody was just trying to reiterate that ROM tunes are a great option.

But sayung that it is BETTER than a standalone is just downright idioitic, and again, misleading.

Rip the ROM ECU out of your car and put an AEM or PFC in and let an equally qualified person tune it (i.e. JW or RSE) and they can do just as well.

Saying it is "better" is just assinine.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by 4x4le

codayce:
Allot of the reason my power kept climbing is mostly due to the e85 and how I can safely keep throwing timing at it even at higher rpms. Im running 35* in the upper right of my timing map! Most gas sr's will not respond well to lots of timing up top and you are cut off on timing kinda early on gas sr's. I remember a dyno graph from australia (I may even be able to find it) where a fellow was running a stock t25 on a e85 sr and was making around 250 DD whp. The graph was SICK!

Undoubtedly. I would love to run 'essentially' race gas (e85) but it's simply nto common in my area. Your graphs are the exact 'result' I'd expect, and it's great to see someone push it a bit to show the capability with timing (and at the same time, showing how much timing really does effect overall power.

I love watching my friends tune the big power drag cars and say 'man I could make that power at 15 psi at 10psi if you ran some race gas hehe'.

Originally Posted by 4x4le

What dyno were you tuning on? A DD will allow you to simulate any street condition. It also allows you go hold it at any rpm you want. DD is the best tool for tuning period.

For sure. Any load bearing/simulating dyno is better for tuning than a dynojet, I'll never disagree with that.

Originally Posted by 4x4le

And the knock sensor on a pfc is not a high quality listening device either. Stock ecu tuning allows for the same exact feature, Its just most of us turn it off.

Yes. I know JWT is turned off past 4000 rpm simply beacuse of how finnicky and how unreliable the stock K/S are. Heck even the timing chains can throw off knock codes on Nissan motors...ask any VQ owner this

Originally Posted by jspaeth

This means that the OPTIMAL way to get from point A to point B fastest is to redline EVERY gear.

Now, in some cars, the torque drops off MUCH faster before redline....in CERTAIN scenarios, it MAY be beneficial to shift before redline.

This would require that the torque made at the NEW RPM (upon upshifting) multiplied by the ratio of the NEW GEAR RATIO/OLD GEAR RATIO is higher than the torque being made if you had just stayed in the lower gear.

For sure. This is why I'm a huge fan of the 4.6 final drive, as it really keeps the car in their maximum powerband. I could (honestly) care less about power before 3000 rpm,as I am never there in a 'race' situation. Street driving, as long as it's smooth I'm content. Don't mistake this as a ricer 'all i want his HP' statement, but it's just my view on it all. So a car makes 35 more hp at 2500 rpm. Woopy. Only time Im' there is in 5th gear on the highway, I'll take the less HP.

I was just curious that over a given distance if a car that ran out of gear (ised all the rpm), would be quicker from A-B than a car that stayed below the threshold.

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

Until a ROM tune gets a neat little commander that eliminates 4-5 analog gauges and monitors things like Knock, A/F, RPM, Speed, temperature etc etc. then the POWER FC still reigns supreme.

Mine logs A/F, RPM, Speed, Temperature, duty cycle, ...every sensor I have (aside form knock as it's turned off). We understand you like PFC, but we also understand that YOU HAVE A LIMITED (to no) CLUE about what you're even talking about. Please read, and not post. You're really cluttering this discussion up to the point where I want to PM a mod to just clean your garbage up. You're new to this I can see, but how many people need to tell you to be quit before you finally listen? jeepers creepers man, you're like that annoying fly at a bbq.

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

How could not make the same amount of power or better with a standalone than what you make with a ROM. You all make it sound like a ROM > Standalone which any tuner knows is not true.

Man, give it up! Nobody is doubting the greater flexability of the PFC, but what you can't seem to grasp is how well the ROM tune works for these 400 hp cars. Clark and Scott would be able to tune anything beyond 99% of the tuners out there...they've been doingn this longer than you've owned a car, they've had more ECU's created than you have probably changed lugnuts...why do you not accept that these guys are PROFESSIONALS that do regular tuning, and do rom tunes?

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

The damage would be done before you ever knew what happened?

Being that you know everything, I'd think you would know that our knock sensors are so slow, that the damage would be done before they even detect anything. If was really concerned over a solid knock reading, I'd get a real setup...but then again, you probably knew that...or your tuner knows...or you know what I mean.

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

I now run Nismo 740s and all is good. Of course some people will talk about how Doucheworks is a good company but not for me. I could have gotten a lawsuit for a new motor ready for them since I have friends that are attorneys. A product liability suit is a hard thing to prove though and you would have spent more money than it would have cost to fix it to begin with.

Serves your right for buying shady injectors, that are ticking time bombs. I assumed being that you're the pro you would have known that pushing injectors beyond their manufactured limit is a bad idea (hot coiling anyone??). I guess you learned the hard way.

PS: LOL at your lawsuit -- that would have never held up. Heck should I sue Nissan for a bad o ring because my stock engine ripped one out of the intake manifold? Or should I sue greddy becuase of it? it's the name of the game with modified stuff.

PLEASE STOP POSTING -- Sometimes members like you really turn me off from forums (and many others that are in this thread agree with me.

Originally Posted by jspaeth

Cody was just trying to reiterate that ROM tunes are a great option.

This has been my goal since day one. For people that don't live near a good tuner, or don't' have the 1000-1500 bucks for a standalone and tune, the ROM setup is really a great setup for a true street car. Im' glad some of the technical discussion came up, as it's been a while since we've had such conversion on here (better than the typical topics we see time and time again). Now if we could only convince HemiCharger to quit posting in here, as it's obvious his tuners words (I mean his knowledge) is a bit lacking -- this would be a great thread to learn in.

[SoSideways]

Doesn't the ConZult plug into your consult port, and then you can track what your ECU is seeing in real time with a single display?

I remember a Sentra owner that has had the SR20VE swapped into his Sentra, and he showed me the log of his engine revving past 10k rpm without load.

He started his car, started the datalogging feature on the device (pretty sure it's the ConZult?), then he revved the engine, and then he went back and displayed the peak values that the device had recorded, and his rpm read 9999, because that's as high as it could read lol

Anyway, just saying, there are datalogging capabilities for the folks running ROM tunes too, and stand alone EMS aren't the "be-all-end-all" solution to engine tuning.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by SoSideways

Doesn't the ConZult plug into your consult port, and then you can track what your ECU is seeing in real time with a single display?

I remember a Sentra owner that has had the SR20VE swapped into his Sentra, and he showed me the log of his engine revving past 10k rpm without load.

He started his car, started the datalogging feature on the device (pretty sure it's the ConZult?), then he revved the engine, and then he went back and displayed the peak values that the device had recorded, and his rpm read 9999, because that's as high as it could read lol

Yep! Nissan DataScan, ConZult, CalumSult, etc etc all are capable of doing this. At this rate, once oyu have the logging ability, any capable person with an editior/burner would be capable of making changes. (hence the popularity of CalumSult/RealTime, and Nistune now).

I personally use NissanDataScan:
nissandatascan.com

Program Purchased from:
blaZt - Nissan Datascan version 1.54 software for reading engine sensors and trouble codes

Cable Purchased from there as well:
blaZt Nissan consult PC scan tool for Nissan OBD

Single best tool I've ever bought for the car. At 120 bucks you simply can't go wrong ya know? Works as a scanner, does timing mode, logs the car..just a fantastic thing.

Anyway, just saying, there are datalogging capabilities for the folks running ROM tunes too, and stand alone EMS aren't the "be-all-end-all" solution to engine tuning.

For damn sure. It seems like only in the import community that 'stand alone is always best' has caught on. I know from first hand experience that in the domestic area, the stock computers have become so capable and so adaptable that there are guys running 800 hp + on stock PCM's with a tuner program. You simply can't ever replicate the drive ability and workings of the factory ecu, and it seems like many don't understand this.

[2fast4y0u]

i was 2 HUGE pages behind and some of this shit i jsut read made me crossed eyed. lots of good info

also, i read some stuff i wish i could just punch people for saying.
i have a Consult and i can never get it to work right. must be something i am doing because it never connects to the car.

[2fast4y0u]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

Until a ROM tune gets a neat little commander that eliminates 4-5 analog gauges and monitors things like Knock, A/F, RPM, Speed, temperature etc etc. then the POWER FC still reigns supreme.

How could not make the same amount of power or better with a standalone than what you make with a ROM. You all make it sound like a ROM > Standalone which any tuner knows is not true.

If you have to go ROM tunes -- I am guessing almost everyone is happy with the JWT better than the other ROM options out there. How do you ever know that you are getting spark knock or not once you get into high boost with it? The damage would be done before you ever knew what happened?

so u are telling me because you have a PFC you dont have a speedometer, or a tach, or a coolant temp gauge?
i run a ROM and i didnt buy any of those 3 items...my car came with a cluster that is capable of reading all 3. yes the knock and a/f i need a gauge for but my afc handles the knock and fine tuning(2 birds with one stone) and the a/f can be had for cheap with a simple gauge. autometer has one for $63.

now, i do have an AEM ems but havent installed it yet. actually i have had it for nearly 3-4 years. i dont have the knowledge of tuning it my self yet so i havent installed it. theres a shop near me that will install and tune it for $1200...not something i can do. to much $ i will learn how to do it my self when im ready

[codyace]

Originally Posted by 2fast4y0u

i was 2 HUGE pages behind and some of this shit i jsut read made me crossed eyed. lots of good info

also, i read some stuff i wish i could just punch people for saying.
i have a Consult and i can never get it to work right. must be something i am doing because it never connects to the car.

Not connecting in the sense that the port isn't even picking up the ecu, or the gauges aren't working?

Sometimes the 8pin to usb converters get finnicky for sure.

[2fast4y0u]

it must be the usb to serial connector. i worked once...literally once. i will have to try it again and see what happens

[4x4le]

a $63 gauge from autometer most likely is not a wideband and cannot handle air fuel ratio.....

codace, is your 4.6 gear out of a r51 front? And do you know what the wheel speeds are from gear to gear? I understand if you dont know what it tops out at in 4th or 5th but but mostly im consirned with top speed in 2nd through 4th (also what tire size are you running)?
I would love a lower gear but Im afraid it could cause more shifting than I would want in a drift car.

[HemiCharger]

Originally Posted by 2fast4y0u

so u are telling me because you have a PFC you dont have a speedometer, or a tach, or a coolant temp gauge?
i run a ROM and i didnt buy any of those 3 items...my car came with a cluster that is capable of reading all 3. yes the knock and a/f i need a gauge for but my afc handles the knock and fine tuning(2 birds with one stone) and the a/f can be had for cheap with a simple gauge. autometer has one for $63.

now, i do have an AEM ems but havent installed it yet. actually i have had it for nearly 3-4 years. i dont have the knowledge of tuning it my self yet so i havent installed it. theres a shop near me that will install and tune it for $1200...not something i can do. to much $ i will learn how to do it my self when im ready

the stock temp gauge on our cars is garbage it only reads cold hot and hottest. It does not give an actually temperature. The PFC monitors several channels at once and gives you a read out on it. It also flashes a knock "CEL" light several times to let you know you are going over 60+ knock count or whatever you set the threshold too. I bought mine like 2 or 3 years ago when the AUD to USD exchange rate was on our side. Now they are expensive like 1200-1300 bucks.

Tuning is not some secret freaking thing that only a few people are good at. I mean a lot of people own cars and tune then up especially for Nissan and I am happy codyace has such a great tuner. It does not matter to me other than you all are trying to say go ROM tune over standalone cause they make more power when that clearly would not be the case. It is also great that your ROM tune allows you to monitor those channels but you do not have the time to stop your car or look at your laptop while you are pushing out 6000+ rpm shifts.

I know other people that read this and will go whoa I will go out and make 400whp with a JWT tune not specifically made for my car then blow their shit up and be like what went wrong? Again, My PFC has been tuned at what it runs now for over a year and a half. There was no guessing with it and not much to chance. Additionally, if you are given the choice of a ROM verses a Standalone then look over the options really well. The RISK is less with a Standalone and they can control all things. Oh yeah I also have working A/C in my car as well as cruise control, intermittent wipers --everything works like it was from the factory that way..... just saying......