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LOUD NOISES A place for political mudslinging, Pro/Anti legalization, gay marriage debate, Gun control rants, etc. If it's political, controversial, or hotly debated, it goes here. No regular Off-Topic stuff allowed. READ THE RULES BEFORE POSTING!


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Old 11-18-2019, 12:46 PM   #571
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Originally Posted by exitspeed View Post
You and reality aren’t on the same page. Sorry man. Robert Johnson definitely thinks you’re wrong. I doubt there’s even another person who agrees with you politically in this thread that that doesn’t agree that the Democrat party hasn’t moved far left. It’s literally one (not THE) of the reasons Trump is in office. I personally know lifetime democrats that are voting trump in 2020 because they don’t recognize their own party. Most down to earth Americans are sick of identity politics and a not in favor of socialist policies. Hence, Trump. The Left is doubling down on these policies. Hell even people like Warren, Biden, Hilary are FAR more left than they ever have been in their careers. Their track records show that. Their being pushed that way by the far left socialists that are taking over the party like AOC and the gang. Here’s a quote from a very outspoken lefty I work with a few weeks ago regarding identity politics and political correctness gone awry “you want trump to fucking win in 2020, keep this shit up. I consider myself a Liberal but some of this shit is too much”. I didn’t say shit I just raised my endows like “indeed”.


100% truth
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Old 11-18-2019, 02:36 PM   #572
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It's almost like the 3 recent candidates trump stumped for in DEEP red districts and states didnt all just lose their seats....

Oh wait, they did........
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Old 11-18-2019, 04:34 PM   #573
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Like literally happened in the last couple days.

#toofarleft

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/lef...the-system.amp

Quote:
Former President Barack Obama is facing a new wave of criticism from the Democratic Party's left flank after cautioning Democrats about going too radical with their policy proposals — in the latest sign of a growing rift between the popular 44th president and the party's activist base.

Obama on Friday warned 2020 Democratic presidential hopefuls to pay attention to what voters actually think, claiming at a gathering of Democratic donors that most of them don’t want to “tear down the system” and that many Democrats “just don’t want to see crazy stuff.” Members of his party soon turned on him, using the hashtag #TooFarLeft.
Again, real life.
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Old 11-18-2019, 06:11 PM   #574
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Old 11-18-2019, 06:40 PM   #575
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Originally Posted by exitspeed View Post
You and reality aren’t on the same page. Sorry man. Robert Johnson definitely thinks you’re wrong. I doubt there’s even another person who agrees with you politically in this thread that that doesn’t agree that the Democrat party hasn’t moved far left. It’s literally one (not THE) of the reasons Trump is in office. I personally know lifetime democrats that are voting trump in 2020 because they don’t recognize their own party. Most down to earth Americans are sick of identity politics and a not in favor of socialist policies. Hence, Trump. The Left is doubling down on these policies. Hell even people like Warren, Biden, Hilary are FAR more left than they ever have been in their careers. Their track records show that. Their being pushed that way by the far left socialists that are taking over the party like AOC and the gang. Here’s a quote from a very outspoken lefty I work with a few weeks ago regarding identity politics and political correctness gone awry “you want trump to fucking win in 2020, keep this shit up. I consider myself a Liberal but some of this shit is too much”. I didn’t say shit I just raised my endows like “indeed”.
A liberal isn't a lefty.

And are you talking Robert Johnson the billionaire owner of BET? Yeah, that's not a leftist voice.

As for Obama, the warhawk who never did anything progressive but campaigned on a left platform?

YOU want the Democratic candidate to be a Republican. Somehow the democrat has to moderate themselves for republican voters but Trump and his cronies can be as racist, anti-working class, etc., as they please.

Hmmm.

BTW, Trump won on identity politics. You're not sick of it at all.

You like YOUR identity politics, you just want other people to be limited in their views.
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Old 11-18-2019, 07:30 PM   #576
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I agree we should do more for mental health in this country.
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Old 11-18-2019, 08:59 PM   #577
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Edit: You're really not worth it. Enjoy your backwards, hateful views.
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Old 11-18-2019, 09:30 PM   #578
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Originally Posted by gbaby2089 View Post
Edit: You're really not worth it. Enjoy your backwards, hateful views.


Dont edit...be a man hold ur balls and say what u were gonna say.


Its only the internet and your comments might acually change/effect someone....

U never know u could change someone from left to right or right to left.....
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Old 11-18-2019, 10:43 PM   #579
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Originally Posted by S14rebuild View Post
Dont edit...be a man hold ur balls and say what u were gonna say.


Its only the internet and your comments might acually change/effect someone....

U never know u could change someone from left to right or right to left.....

Why would one change when the guy you identify with on all sorts of levels is the..........president??


As Falkon said way back, minds are not changing. Done
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Old 11-18-2019, 11:34 PM   #580
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Originally Posted by exitspeed View Post
You and reality aren’t on the same page. Sorry man. Robert Johnson definitely thinks you’re wrong. I doubt there’s even another person who agrees with you politically in this thread that that doesn’t agree that the Democrat party hasn’t moved far left. It’s literally one (not THE) of the reasons Trump is in office. I personally know lifetime democrats that are voting trump in 2020 because they don’t recognize their own party. Most down to earth Americans are sick of identity politics and a not in favor of socialist policies. Hence, Trump. The Left is doubling down on these policies. Hell even people like Warren, Biden, Hilary are FAR more left than they ever have been in their careers. Their track records show that. Their being pushed that way by the far left socialists that are taking over the party like AOC and the gang. Here’s a quote from a very outspoken lefty I work with a few weeks ago regarding identity politics and political correctness gone awry “you want trump to fucking win in 2020, keep this shit up. I consider myself a Liberal but some of this shit is too much”. I didn’t say shit I just raised my endows like “indeed”.
We are in a bad spot as a nation where such radical proposals get any kind of support.... you know things are bad when fbho is considered not liberal enough
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Old 11-19-2019, 05:14 AM   #581
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Edit: You're really not worth it. Enjoy your backwards, hateful views.
I love you man. Like I’ve said before, I’d buy you a beer and shoot the shit any time you want. I don’t have any hate for people I may disagree with politically or despite the what you keep saying, people “that don’t look like me”.
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Old 11-19-2019, 05:15 AM   #582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S14rebuild View Post
Dont edit...be a man hold ur balls and say what u were gonna say.


Its only the internet and your comments might acually change/effect someone....

U never know u could change someone from left to right or right to left.....
It’s clear that hasn’t happened in any way shape or form.
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Old 11-19-2019, 05:25 AM   #583
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https://www.autoblog.com/2019/11/18/...ernment-fleet/

Here’s another example of something I totally back trump on. And so did every American auto maker. Annnnd California responds in the most anti-American way possible, by saying they won’t be buying American cars for any of the states fleet vehicles. Wow. Cali should just secede already.
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Old 11-19-2019, 10:18 AM   #584
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Originally Posted by exitspeed View Post
https://www.autoblog.com/2019/11/18/...ernment-fleet/

Here’s another example of something I totally back trump on. And so did every American auto maker. Annnnd California responds in the most anti-American way possible, by saying they won’t be buying American cars for any of the states fleet vehicles. Wow. Cali should just secede already.
The article clearly says that Ford is still considered amongst the automakers California would potentially buy from.
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Old 11-19-2019, 12:05 PM   #585
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The article clearly says that Ford is still considered amongst the automakers California would potentially buy from.
So they are only planning on buying American CUVs then. Further burdening California tax payers. Guess I shouldn’t really worry about it. Not my problem.
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Old 11-19-2019, 12:52 PM   #586
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Originally Posted by exitspeed View Post
https://www.autoblog.com/2019/11/18/...ernment-fleet/

Here’s another example of something I totally back trump on. And so did every American auto maker. Annnnd California responds in the most anti-American way possible, by saying they won’t be buying American cars for any of the states fleet vehicles. Wow. Cali should just secede already.
I recall, when trump became president he stated he will be bring factory jobs back.

GM closed 3 of their factories this year......

Are you going to acknowledge/place the blame on trump?? And if not, please explain, considering the shift in market focus (with gas prices being low) to SUVs/trucks (because fuck yeaa AMERICA! I need my 90K SUV to drive the kids to the grocery store and back instead of a fuel efficient wagon) and the factories losing money hand over fist by keeping these factories open.



https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...een-mary-barra
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Old 11-19-2019, 02:52 PM   #587
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California is exercising their right to purchase goods from vendors that can meet their desired requirements. If the other companies want to be competitive they need to step up or not.

This is free market capitalism embodied.
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Old 11-19-2019, 09:19 PM   #588
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California is exercising their right to purchase goods from vendors that can meet their desired requirements. If the other companies want to be competitive they need to step up or not.

This is free market capitalism embodied.
Republicans are anti-free market.
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Old Yesterday, 05:58 AM   #589
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I recall, when trump became president he stated he will be bring factory jobs back.

GM closed 3 of their factories this year......

Are you going to acknowledge/place the blame on trump?? And if not, please explain, considering the shift in market focus (with gas prices being low) to SUVs/trucks (because fuck yeaa AMERICA! I need my 90K SUV to drive the kids to the grocery store and back instead of a fuel efficient wagon) and the factories losing money hand over fist by keeping these factories open.
Yes some plants have closed, but many new plants have been announced and have been opened. Volvo, Mazda/Toyota ($1.6b), Foxconn, Fiat/Chrysler, and others. Would I expect NO plants to close under ANY administration? No. That’s an unrealistic expectation. Every plant has its own story which is independent of politics and fully dependent on market demand. The shift to CUVs started WELL before Trump even thought of running for president. As a matter of fact it IS a directly related to the boom in US oil manufacturing (fracking) which boomed under Obama by 77 percent. Which has been fantastic for this country. With cheap oil comes bigger vehicles and a shift in buying habits. I could go on and on about automotive trends (see the thread in OT) but I can assure you they are completely independent of any president.

https://www.industryweek.com/leaders...uilding-frenzy

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/fi...oit-2018-12-06



Quote:
Originally Posted by midnight zenki View Post
This is free market capitalism embodied.
Correct. I’ll fully agree with the that.

I‘ll also acknowledge though that most car people here (this being a car forum with the majority of its members being in CA) disagree with California’s emission standards. I for one applaud GM, Toyota and Fiat/Chrysler for standing up to California. Only under this Trump would these manufacturers have the balls to do this. And there are very big reasons why they’re doing it. It costs auto manufacturers millions upon millions of dollars in R&D, tooling, advertising, etc etc to comply with one states extra regulations. It’s absurd. Especially when CA has so many other real crises like housing, constant wildfires, etc.

While we’re on the topic of regulation and it’s effects on products and consumers, lets talk about the Obama administration vs the Trump administration. Under Obama regulations ballooned to all time highs. https://www.forbes.com/sites/waynecr...tory-rulebook/ These regulations directly equate to more expensive vehicles. Obama era EPA rules were unrealistic and a tremendous financial burden on EVERY manufacturer. Hence them agreeing with the Trump administration on rolling them back, slightly. Trump has cut regulations at record rates which directly effects our economy in a positive way.

Allow me to make another point. Now if you agree with outrageous Obama era EPA rules and you want to see a shift to EVs because it’s good for the environment, that’s fine. But let me tell you as a matter of fact not Obama, or regulation, or government intervention, that shift IS happening and it is a result of innovation in the PRIVATE sector. That would be the rise of Tesla. Elon didn’t need the government to regulate anything (although he did need the government to subsidize his cars) for him to see there was demand for EVs and to change the automotive industry forever.
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Old Yesterday, 07:34 AM   #590
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Yes some plants have closed, but many new plants have been announced and have been opened. Volvo, Mazda/Toyota ($1.6b), Foxconn, Fiat/Chrysler, and others. Would I expect NO plants to close under ANY administration? No. That’s an unrealistic expectation. Every plant has its own story which is independent of politics and fully dependent on market demand. The shift to CUVs started WELL before Trump even thought of running for president. As a matter of fact it IS a directly related to the boom in US oil manufacturing (fracking) which boomed under Obama by 77 percent. Which has been fantastic for this country. With cheap oil comes bigger vehicles and a shift in buying habits. I could go on and on about automotive trends (see the thread in OT) but I can assure you they are completely independent of any president.

https://www.industryweek.com/leaders...uilding-frenzy

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/fi...oit-2018-12-06

This is a response I can 100% appreciate. Kudos for not blindly falling in line with the idea that the president's finger is on the button in terms of control on how the industry ebs and flows (especially considering the consumer marker).

I just wish trump wouldn't campaign as such.

In terms of the oil comment, I was reading this morning with the shift to more fuel efficient vehicles, a fair amount of refineries and such (in the US) have been idled due to the global fall in oil demands, which is tend tied to the global price of oil remaining low over the last 5-10 years.
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Old Yesterday, 08:41 AM   #591
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It’s clear that hasn’t happened in any way shape or form.


It was a very sarcastic comment
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Old Yesterday, 10:55 AM   #592
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Yes some plants have closed, but many new plants have been announced and have been opened. Volvo, Mazda/Toyota ($1.6b), Foxconn, Fiat/Chrysler, and others. Would I expect NO plants to close under ANY administration? No. That’s an unrealistic expectation. Every plant has its own story which is independent of politics and fully dependent on market demand. The shift to CUVs started WELL before Trump even thought of running for president. As a matter of fact it IS a directly related to the boom in US oil manufacturing (fracking) which boomed under Obama by 77 percent. Which has been fantastic for this country. With cheap oil comes bigger vehicles and a shift in buying habits. I could go on and on about automotive trends (see the thread in OT) but I can assure you they are completely independent of any president.
Foxconn was a republican state government getting swindled & costing it taxpayers millions upon millions.

When the taxpayers are paying for a facility & making it so the state is unlikely to ever see anywhere near a return for that expenditure...that isn't a win.

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Originally Posted by exitspeed View Post
Correct. I’ll fully agree with the that.

I‘ll also acknowledge though that most car people here (this being a car forum with the majority of its members being in CA) disagree with California’s emission standards. I for one applaud GM, Toyota and Fiat/Chrysler for standing up to California. Only under this Trump would these manufacturers have the balls to do this. And there are very big reasons why they’re doing it. It costs auto manufacturers millions upon millions of dollars in R&D, tooling, advertising, etc etc to comply with one states extra regulations. It’s absurd. Especially when CA has so many other real crises like housing, constant wildfires, etc.
GM & FCA are going against because they are dying everywhere other than the US and even here they can only sell gas guzzlers. Toyota is resisting because their trucks are supremely outdated gas guzzlers.

BTW, car guys only hate CA emissions regs because they're too young and/or ignorant to know how smoggy cities used to be. As well as too lazy to do the research to do modifications that can be BAR'd.

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Originally Posted by exitspeed View Post
While we’re on the topic of regulation and it’s effects on products and consumers, lets talk about the Obama administration vs the Trump administration. Under Obama regulations ballooned to all time highs. https://www.forbes.com/sites/waynecr...tory-rulebook/ These regulations directly equate to more expensive vehicles. Obama era EPA rules were unrealistic and a tremendous financial burden on EVERY manufacturer. Hence them agreeing with the Trump administration on rolling them back, slightly. Trump has cut regulations at record rates which directly effects our economy in a positive way.
Yes, cars have gotten so expensive.

A 1991 Civic EX sedan had an MSRP of 11,450 USD. That's $21,634 in today's dollars. Today that buys a Civic Sport Sedan, with Apple Carplay, tons of safety features, 40+ MPG, etc. Let's not forget that a 1991 Civic is much closer to a modern Fit than a Civic, today's cars look even cheaper when we consider that.

Car prices are one of the few things that have not outpaced inflation/wages.

The cars that have seen their prices balloon most? Trucks & SUV.

A 1993 F150 Supercab longwheelbase 4x4 was 16,956 MSRP. That's $30197 in 2019. Today a 4x4 Supercab longwheel base is $37,665.

What about a Wrangler? A 1993 Saraha MSRP'd at $13,343, today that's $23,763. A 2019 Wrangler Sahara is four door only, so choosing the trim level that is closest in cost (actually $1000 less than a Sahara in four door trim), the Willy's trim, costs $33,990.

The Jeep Wrangler, one of the least fuel efficient cars on the road costs just under 50% more than inflation says it should while the type of cars that have kept up (and exceeded) emissions standards are exactly in line with inflation.

What gives?
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Old Yesterday, 04:18 PM   #593
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Comparing (the cost of) apples to apples is one thing. But what you’re not considering is the number of “apples” on the market. Sure there’s still Accords, Wranglers etc. but the majority of the market are far more expensive CUVs. Just last week a report came out showing that Ford and GM abandoning cars in favor of CUVs has cost them big time as buyers are moving to Korean and Japanese brands who still offer a full range of cars.
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Old Yesterday, 04:49 PM   #594
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I like gm and im financing a gm product but have to admit that cts-v and ats-v aside I dont think they’ve often successfully made good econoboxes or sedans period. It really should have been gm who axed their cars and not ford.
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Old Yesterday, 06:17 PM   #595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exitspeed View Post
Comparing (the cost of) apples to apples is one thing. But what you’re not considering is the number of “apples” on the market. Sure there’s still Accords, Wranglers etc. but the majority of the market are far more expensive CUVs. Just last week a report came out showing that Ford and GM abandoning cars in favor of CUVs has cost them big time as buyers are moving to Korean and Japanese brands who still offer a full range of cars.
This bears no relationship to what you mentioned about cost of cars today. Companies are shifting to CUV because idiots buy them and margins are bigger.

It's capitalism. Gross as always
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Old Today, 07:18 AM   #596
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Originally Posted by ronmcdon View Post
I like gm and im financing a gm product but have to admit that cts-v and ats-v aside I dont think they’ve often successfully made good econoboxes or sedans period. It really should have been gm who axed their cars and not ford.
The thing is though, the CTS and the ATS platform and the cars are quite fantastic and critically acclaimed. But there’s something juuuuuust not good enough about them. That can actually be said about all of Cadillacs lineup currently. The new XT6 misses the mark by a lot compared to the new Avaiator. Hell most of the reviews are saying it’s not even close to the 4 year old XC90. Granted that is a fantastically designed car inside and out. But still. That’s sort of GM’s m.o.

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This bears no relationship to what you mentioned about cost of cars today. Companies are shifting to CUV because idiots buy them and margins are bigger.

It's capitalism. Gross as always
It DOES relate. It relates because consumers are buying CUVs INSTEAD of cars because of a wide variety of things, space, added ground clearance, cargo capacity and the fact that they’ve gotten so fuel efficient. So it doesn’t matter that cars cost the same because PEOPLE ARENT BUYING CARS.

The fact that you think someone buying a CUV makes them an idiot just shows how out of touch you are with the world around you. And it has very little to do with capitalism and everything to do with peoples lifestyles. Real life. Not partisan politics.

But hey, you’re right, I’m wrong yadda yadda.
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Old Today, 08:05 AM   #597
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Originally Posted by exitspeed View Post
It DOES relate. It relates because consumers are buying CUVs INSTEAD of cars because of a wide variety of things, space, added ground clearance, cargo capacity and the fact that they’ve gotten so fuel efficient. So it doesn’t matter that cars cost the same because PEOPLE ARENT BUYING CARS.

The fact that you think someone buying a CUV makes them an idiot just shows how out of touch you are with the world around you. And it has very little to do with capitalism and everything to do with peoples lifestyles. Real life. Not partisan politics.

But hey, you’re right, I’m wrong yadda yadda.
Most car based SUV have little additional ground clearance over the cars they're based on. They all have less space than a comparably sized minivan. They're all worse on gas, more expensive to purchase and maintain than the cars they're based on. Etc.

What exactly in the life's of Americans is so different now than it was in 1995 that requires every milquetoast bland person to own a SPORT UTILITY VEHICLE.

Other than advertising telling them it will somehow make them into something other than the bland, boring people they've always been, they do nothing new.

People buying Jeep Wranglers aren't scaling difficult trails. People buying Raptors aren't zooming across deserts.
A CRV can go nowhere a Civic cannot

Etc.
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Old Today, 08:21 AM   #598
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I’d tell you why from my personal experience but you’d just tell me I’m wrong and I’m an “idiot” so I’ll just save my breath.
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