E85 thread

[4x4le]

Originally Posted by surfpac

Hey, now that I think about it more you're correct ,the lambda value would be slightly leaner but the AFR's with E85 are much denser than petrol gas.

Yes. I didnt see this post until i replied to the last one. Your running a ton more fuel. And everyone needs to remember that after stoich, none of the other fuel even burns because there isnt any oxygen to burn it. It is there for internal cooling wether its gas, e85, or lpg.

If you leave your wideband calabrated for gas (which allot of people do when running e85 because allot of the gauges have trouble reading out in the 10:1-6:1 range and because lambida your dealing with such small numbers that at a glance are hard to take in) i usually try to target around a 12.5:1 on the gauge although that is not really the afr.

Im sure this will cause more confusion with other people but we go through this everytime an e85 thread comes around.

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[slideslidegnarslide]

i understand.but the information thats in this thread is based on a lot of what people "heard" half the people dont know what they are talking about. I wouldn't mind if this thread stayed educational. questions should be posted, of course. They should be answered by either people who have tuned with e85 and or run e85 in their car. Guy above me your spot on. I understand what your are talking about.

[SuicidnS13]

so what would I need for a basic 400whp fuel setup. Also are the top feed injectors recommended over the typical sidefeeds?

walbro, 750's and a power fc plus stainless feed and return lines?

[4x4le]

Originally Posted by SuicidnS13

so what would I need for a basic 400whp fuel setup. Also are the top feed injectors recommended over the typical sidefeeds?

walbro, 750's and a power fc plus stainless feed and return lines?

Rubber lines are fine really. Im going to go into more detail when i have time to concentrate on this topic but just an in tank walbro is not going to be enough usually, as well 750cc injectors are too small for that much power unless you run a 4bar setup which i highly recommend. 4bar setup deems your in tank pump no good alone.

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[DreEzed]

What kind of fuel setups are you guys running?

Also whats the best fuel pump to use and FPR?

[surfpac]

Originally Posted by 4x4le

Yes. I didnt see this post until i replied to the last one. Your running a ton more fuel. And everyone needs to remember that after stoich, none of the other fuel even burns because there isnt any oxygen to burn it. It is there for internal cooling wether its gas, e85, or lpg.

If you leave your wideband calabrated for gas (which allot of people do when running e85 because allot of the gauges have trouble reading out in the 10:1-6:1 range and because lambida your dealing with such small numbers that at a glance are hard to take in) i usually try to target around a 12.5:1 on the gauge although that is not really the afr.

Im sure this will cause more confusion with other people but we go through this everytime an e85 thread comes around.

Hey, no problem dude, I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers and I can definitely use some pointers from an E85 expert, as yourself.

[dj_hype]

I've been running E85 in my RB25 for almost 3 years now. Never had any issues. Made 477 at the wheels with the following setup.

Walbro
RC 750cc
JGY Top Feed
3076R
FReddy Intake Manifold
Q45 TB
Pump E85
MAP ECU

Dropped the boost down and sitting happy now at 410 because I didn't trust the boost levels I was running for 477 on a 17 year old motor.

[slideslidegnarslide]

^^^^ exactly what i was looking for

[4x4le]

So here is some things I can think of right now.


I prefer a 4 bar fuel setup with e85. Since your running so much more fuel having higher pressure behind it allows it to atomize better. I feel that it atomizes great regardless on a hot engine but that isnt going to help you when you cant get it started or to stay running on a cold day. Another great thing about a 4 bar setup is it will make your injectors just about the right percentage bigger that e85 requires in fuel demand to stay at the proper ratios vs gas. This means that your gas tune should "run" your engine on e85 although not everything will be perfect and a tune needs to be in order. This also will help you with deciding on what injector size you need.
While were on the subject of injectors there are 2 I like. I have been running msd top feeds. 72lb/hr or 756cc ones to be exact. They are fine and I already had them and have not had any issues with them so no complaints here but If I had to purchase some for whatever reason I would go with bosch topfeeds just to to their performance specs and their well known to work great with e85.
Now for a 4 bar fuel setup to work you cannot rely on your in tank walbro 255lph pump. I wont get into the details right now but just take my word on it for now. Instead of linking you to another forum I have explained all of this and described my fueling setup I will carry the information over here sometime today or tomorrow. I am running a 255lph in tank and a 255lph hp inline after the fuel filter and this yeilds enough pressure and flow for my setup. I dont know exactly where it would start to not be enough but you could always use a similar setup with a walbro 290lph or a bosch 044.

Now I want to stress that a big NO NO is atmospheric pcv. PLEASE re rout your valve cover breather back to your turbo inlet or intake if your n/a. If you really cannot do this for whatever reason see about PROPERLY routing it to your exhaust stream or even routing it out of your cowl or hood or fender vents. The reason behind this is your crank case gasses will be highly flammable when running e85 (ask me how I know). One benefit to routing it back to your intake instead of through the exhaust or whatever is your wasting less fuel because it is being re consumed by your engine and you dont have to tune extra fuel in. The reason the crank case vapor is flammable is due to blow by (which every engine has and why you have pcv). E85 has a very low boiling point so as soon as it leaves your injector and hits your hot intake manifold, head, valve and combustion chamber it is a vapor full of energy (steam). It mixes with the air better than a wet gas vapor. When the piston comes up some of the vapors slip past the rings and enter the crank case. Now gas does this too but gas stays in your oil, e85 stays a vapor and is expelled through your pcv.
A suggestion on re routing it back to your intake is I believe it can cause you trouble if your using a blow through maf. You will be re meetering air already meetered air. You will most likely be able to over come this with tuning but it could max out your maf earlier so just keep it in mind.
One side note is if your dipstick fits loosely you may want to replace it or replace the oring.

[4x4le]

Now this is a writeup I did on a dual pump install on a s13. My reason behind it was for my e85 needs but I worded things in a way that it will be familiar for anyone still using gas or a 3 bar setup. Just keep this in mind when reading it.

This is good for anyone running more than 16.5 lbs on a 3 bar fuel setup with a walbro 255lph pump or a 4 bar setup.

Many people think they will be just fine with the in tank version of the walbro 255lph pump. The truth is if your running stock 3.0 bar fuel pressure and anything more than 16.5 lbs of boost you should start considering running dual pump as well.
If your running a 4.0 setup don't even think about doing that on a walbro in tank pump. The reasoning behind this is because the in-tank walbro 255lph pump has a safety crack pressure starting at 60psi, and then it strikes again even worse at 80psi. If you were to look at pump dynos for the 2 pumps its clear to tell the in-line pump is more of a hoss than the in tank.


Here is a picture of some of the items you will need.


You will need a relay that can handle at least 20A. You will need wire. You will need 2 fuses, one a 20A and you can get away with a 5-10A. You ill also need the pump and the install kit. Some fuel line is a good idea too. Instead of just reusing the old lines, just replace them. I had replaced the line to my pump and from my pump to the fuel pressure sending unit and the line I didn't even touch the line coming off my fuel pressure sensor going into the rail and I discovered a leak in that line from just moving that line around after installing the extra pump so I then replaced that too.




First:
Run a wire from under your hood all the way back to your trunk or hatch.
You will need to go through your fire wall. You may already have a place you use to run wires through (as I did) or you will need to make a new spot.


I have very limited interior in my car and I didn't want a wire exposed that can get damaged so I found places to hide the wire all the way back. You can pull back your carpet and hide it under there or pull it back even further and run it through the rail along your door as I did. The holes that are punched along it will allow you to stick your fingers in there to guide the wire back.


The wire will come out behind your passenger seat. There is a small hole that is taped up right under your speaker partial shelf that you can feed the wire through.


Here it is coming into my trunk.


Dont just leave it loose because items in your trunk can damage the wire and cause your second pump to shut off or for the wire to short. Rout the wire into the hole along your trunk.


You will be able to easily grab it and pull it out through here. Take this time to throw an in-line fuse on it here. 5-10A will be best here.


A simple Y wire connector will be suitable here because of the ease of them and since your not carrying much current through this wire. Your just going to be using it as a switch to turn on a relay. The wires that run down to your pump will need to be accessed. You will want to check out which wire turns on when your pump is on. Get a test light or multimeter and find out which wires turn on with the key, but more specifically find out which wire turns the pump on. Have someone turn the key, you will hear the pump prime. When you find the wire that shuts the light off when the pump is done priming you have your wire. On my 91 S13 it is the black wire with the yellow stripe.
Now before you crimp the Y connector to the pump wire, start the engine and then pull the 10A fuel pump fuse under the hood and let the car die. This will cause the engine to run out of fuel reducing the pressure in the lines so you don't get sprayed when you un-clamp the first line. Set that fuse aside so no power is going to the pump while you work. Crimp the wire on.



Your wire is ran now. Time to move onto the next step.

Second:
Now its time to partially assemble your pump if necessary. Since I'm using a walbro 255lph HP pump I will go through those steps. Slip the insulator over the pump. Put the feed and output fittings on the pump. Make sure to use the brass seal between the pump and the fittings. The size wrench you need to use on the fittings is 5/8".


Next take wire and crimp the terminals on the ends. Place those on the terminals on the top of the pump. The size wrench I used on those nuts was an 8mm. I'm sure it was most likely a standard size but 8mm worked perfect and I have a limited amount of standard tools.


Third:
Its time to start planning whats going on under the hood. Where your going to run wires and where your going to mount components.
Try to find a suitable location for the pump. I found a spot on the passenger side strut tower that was already threaded. I used a M6-1.0x16mm bolt and it was the perfect length. I also ended up finding that was was a good ground and that allowed for a short ground wire so I used that location as a ground later on. Just cut the wire on the ground side of your pump long enough to reach that mounting location and crimp on a terminal eye.
Now pay attention that the pumps mounting bracket is not closed up properly yet. Until your done with the project you may need to take the pump out to make putting the lines on easier along with other things. When using this location I would recommend having the positive terminal on the pump always stick up, it will make it less likely to ground out. I'm later on going to come up with something better than electric tape to protect the positive terminal from grounding out.


Now find somewhere for your relay. I found a great spot by the coolant overflow tank, between it and the battery tray.


Fourth step:
Now you need to replace your fuel lines. Take the line off of the output of your fuel filter and take the line off your rail. Put the new line on the back of your rail and plug it into the output of your new pump. Make sure there are no kinks in the line and that they wont occur easily from small movements and vibrations. Use clamps to secure those lines. Do the same from your fuel filter to the input on your new pump. Here are some (dark) pictures to show but this is pretty self explanatory.







Step five:
Complete your wiring. As I have mentioned before I used the pump mounting location as the pump ground. You still need to wire up your relay in order to get everything to come alive.
Take a 20A in-line fuse and crimp a terminal eye on one end of it and a insulated female connector on the other end. Connect the eye terminal to the + post on the battery and plug the other end on the relay in the location that is supposed to accept full time power. Now take a section of wire and crimp a terminal eye on one end and a insulated female connector on the other. Plug the female connector to the relays ground and find a ground close to the relay. In my case the battery ground was the closest and easiest ground to use therefore I did. Now take the wire you ran from under the hood all the way back to the the fuel pump wire in the trunk and crimp a insulated female connector on that as well. Plug it into the switch post on the relay. Lastly crimp a insulated female connector on the + wire from the new fuel pump and plug that on the output spot on the relay.


Step six:
Put the 10A fuel pump fuse back in the fuse box.
Now everything should be fully operational. Have someone get in and prime the pumps with the key while you watch for leaks. You should hear both pumps running and you will also probably hear air being pushed out of the lines. Have the person keep turning the key and then shutting the key off after the pumps shut off and then turn it back on until you no longer hear the air going back and fourth. Your job while looking under the hood is checking for leaks.

Step seven:
Have the person in the car start it. You need to keep checking for leaks but with the car running now you need to adjust your fuel pressure. The extra flow is going to have raised your fuel pressure some. If you were previously running a stock 3.0 bar setup you need to bring it back down to 3.0 bar.
The way you go about this is let the car idle, then take the vaccume line off the fuel pressure regulator. You need to set it back at 3.0 bar. Leave the vac line off the FPR while you use the locking nut to finilase your adjustment and double check that you didn't alter the fuel pressure by locking it down. Now put the vac line back on the FPR and race the engine a few times in order to get any extra fuel out of the cylinders that may have got in them from running slightly rich while setting the FPR.


Step eight:
If you haven't already, clamp the pump mounting bracket down properly. You don't need to be able to easily remove it anymore. Also clean up your wiring with zip ties (they are not just for holding your bumpers on, go figure). Do this under the hood, in the back seat area and in the trunk.

Here are some pump dynos. This setup is listed. Not the biggest and baddest but it is consistent and practical for most people.

[DreEzed]

Thanks for the info it will help when i go E85. Also I was going to use ID1000's any issues with Injector dynamics?

[4x4le]

correct me if Im wrong but arnt they bosch injectors?

[surfpac]

Not sure if they're modified Bosch injectors but these are supposed to be some awesome injectors. They even have 2000cc ones. These ain't cheap for sure.
The 1000cc (high impedence) as a set are reasonably priced from Amazon. (not trying to promote any supplier..)
Amazon.com: Injector Dynamics Plug-n-Play 1000cc Fuel Injector Set 2000-2005 Honda S2000: Automotive



"I'm later on going to come up with something better than electric tape to protect the positive terminal from grounding out."

Try liquid electrical tape.

Amazon.com: Permatex 85120 Liquid Electrical Tape - 4 oz: Automotive

[Dark_02wrx]

I know its a totally diffrent car but it has alot of e85 information regardless

The E85 Army Thread - NASIOC

Ive been running E85 for awhile now. AWESOME cleaning propertys (switch out fuel filter like 4 times if your running it in an older car). Great octane!! I try to always get it from the same stations due the fluctuation of octanes at different stations (not enough to really fuck to much shit up but still a good habit). And the fact that you can push the tune a shit tune harder with E85. Just dont run to rich with it.......get tuned professionally if running E85.

Idk bout 240s but in wrx's the only thing that would fail due to e85 is the oem fuel pump seals and the oem injector o-rings.

[|BOOST|]

here is some good info:
Subaru Impreza WRX STI Forums: IWSTI.com - View Single Post - Everything you need to know about E85

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/3016597-post3.html

[S@nt0s]

wow lots and lots of things getting thrown around without any forst hand knowledge.

E85 is a drug and you will not want to run anything else after crossing over.

My EVO8 on 91 pump makes 328whp
and on e85 makes 410whp with only a 3 psi bump

RC1000 injectors @ 75% duty cycle with a walbro 255 intank

my SR isnt done yet but she consist of FIC 1650's DW 301 intank will be a few months till shes done but she will be on E85 100% of the time

[4x4le]

Yea, i get so tired when you hear the comments that it takes X% more to produce the same power ect. Sure it takes a little more fuel than gas but not almost 2x as much, not even close. Every pump ive seen it at it is 30% cheaper than low grade gas and sometimes close to 1$/gal cheaper than premium.

I run it for the power as i think its better for me than race fuel and it is far cheaper than race fuel.

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[aNskY]

closest e85 pump is 1.5 hours away from me

[S@nt0s]

i do it for the power the station is 20 miles each way for me and i top off the tank and fill up three 5 gal jugs and im happy

[Kingtal0n]

I know a guy running E85 on his:
2jz-gte, 1600cc injectors, TH400, BC 272, 950RWHP, 35psi


not sure on the compression ratio though. it goes 8.5's

[aNskY]

^ lots of supra guys are running e85 and putting down BIG power

[TEALSQUEAL]

I've been running e85 for two years, I tune it with a standalone system -Autronic Fuel and Autronic 500r Ignition.

I'll definitely say being diligent with your fuel filter changes after you do the switch is very important. I did mine after the first two tanks of fuel and again at 1000 miles and the next oil change. The deposits that develop of the many years of use while using regular pump gas begin to quickly breakdown and travel downstream into your fuel filter when you start using e85. This is why it's so important to keep up with your fuel filter changes at first.

The other thing to be very diligent with, that I have seen mentioned, is to keep up with your catch-can. Emptying that will help your oil longevity in a big way while running e85. Your first two oil changes after switching to e85 should be done in half the time you are doing while using Pump gas. This is because once again the deposits and other gunk in your engine that has been collecting will start to break up and go into your oil. Also the conditioning of your seals and other internal delicates will take to the different level of moisture and acidity in your oil better if it is in a lower amount over a longer time.

Do not be alarmed by your first oil change after switching to e85, IT WILL SMELL HORRIBLE!!! also the amount of "gunk" in your Catch-can will be alarming if you don't empty your setup often. Also once you have a good sealing PCV system as it was mentioned bring it under vacuum so it can do its job.

For fueling I have ran a 255lph HP in-tank pump, with a Paxton FPR, 740cc injectors at 3 bar. I am well into the duty cycle of my injectors under boost, thus i am adding the system i have in the garage- A swirl-pot fed by the 255, that is then drawn on by an Aeromotive Eliminator. I will be running a a pump controller on the Eliminator such that while cruising it will be half voltage, then above 75% throttle it will return to full voltage and full capacity.

I will elaborate more if anyone has any questions. I have a service call to go on. Have a great day and goodluck!

[misfitsfreak81]

ready to run my fully built 2.2liter sr20 on E85. have all supporting mods for fuel system, just wondering if the injector latency times differ for e85 as opposed to premium gas. running haltech ps1000. hopefully someone knows the answer to this. thanks

Mike

[4x4le]

There is no reason it should be different.

sent from my rooted thunderbolt

[lewisfk]

I was wondering if anyone was running e85 with reflashed ecu, and if u are what tune are u using. Jwt etc.

[godrifttoday]

Methanol > e85 .... Unless u are one of the lucky few who live by the 3 Socal e85 stations I would go with methanol... Can be found any where! Target - Walmart !

But that's just me...

[4x4le]

Originally Posted by lewisfk

I was wondering if anyone was running e85 with reflashed ecu, and if u are what tune are u using. Jwt etc.

I am using nistune and have tuned a few e85 cars with it. I know some people that have used tuner pro to tune it.

Originally Posted by godrifttoday

Methanol > e85 .... Unless u are one of the lucky few who live by the 3 Socal e85 stations I would go with methanol... Can be found any where! Target - Walmart !

But that's just me...

Its going to take more than the fact that you can spend $4 qt of heet at wallmart to fill your tank with to make meth better. $16 a gal is kinda expensive and inconvient to fill your tank using 40 bottles.

List ways its better and show more power being made on the same engine meth vs eth

GO

[godrifttoday]

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[4x4le]

cool, then go make your own thread about meth...

[godrifttoday]

Lol ... Ok I'm just saying