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Old 05-09-2020, 11:57 PM   #31
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the point was tongue in cheek but, you want actual words
Ill try: No matter what you do with a stock sr20
no matter how much power you make even if you built it

the car wont actually be 'fast' compared to some new cars are available
Not always because of a lack of power but due to a lack of various modern computer-control tech that is typically unavailable to sr20 engines (but could be added uniquely)
2L is 2L whether it was produced in 89 or 19 however the 19 version utilizes that displacement in a superior way and contains advanced chamber tech among other things such as superior computer modelled internal engine design and materials science etc...

So while the same displacement is present there is a vast chasm of technology looming between the old and new which cannot be jumped by just turning up the wick on power


therefore the metric of an sr20det for typical owners (daily drivers I guess) is no longer performance metric (power) based, its personal taste (quality) based.
i.e. you prefer the engine as one prefers an antique radio.
Not because it is superior but because of the feel and class, familiarity and design of ownership.
In a way, being more simple MAKES it a superior engine, may even be more reliable, it just isn't superior in terms of tech advance.

An engine like that should not be pushed, it should not be raced, it should be enjoyed at much less than break-neck power and maintained with quality parts

This doesn't reflect turbo selection, that is a whole other issue. What it does reflect into however is the level of ownership. In this case, op is new, or said something about being unfamiliar with cars, mechanics, etc... So there is an underlying misconception about power, turbos, and reliability in the minds of novices. In other words most noob think in terms of boost pressure and total output, whereas the vehicle as whole behavior is so far removed from that peak power potential that it makes absolutely no difference in anything other than peak racing situations. In reality the peak power is generally unimportant in the grand scheme of driving a car around town like a regular car, and there are many times when you will ask much less than peak from each gear and still want the car to behave "fun" and be safe.

The turbo choice on the other hand, with an engine like this is reflected around tuning knowledge of gasoline, of using gasoline properly, heat management, insulation and reflective materials, coatings and temperature gradients. Those things that are arguably much more important than the turbo selection itself, essential to the survival of a turbo config, yet often remain unmentioned in turbo discussion among novices.

So to be clear two issues hiding from a novice I think are important are
1. power based turbo selection (is a mistake) instead: fit the compressor map (use match bot or a pen/paper) to the style of driving and use a large turbine when on gasoline fuels at high temps
2. differentiating between very hot situations and climate controlled situations (i.e. traffic in the sun with a/c on mile roll racing vs a cold night at the dyno or 1/4 mile track with the engine shut down between runs)


using gasoline?
The power peak potential or max flow rate of the engine is only 1 data point of an infinite number of potential points along a curve. The behavior of gasoline inside the engine as a SUM of ALL the infinite points is modeled as a Fourier series or infinite series of potential curve fitting solutions to a partial differential equation and beyond the scope of this discussion, which is why I keep breaking it down into the types of situations the vehicle will face (exact solutions) i.e. freezing cold temps vs very hot ambient temps in sunlight traffic. It's much easier to look at each situation separately than it is to look at every single situation at the same time trying to fit a timing number to all of them. Most of us want the engine to be safe under the absolute most brutal conditions, so when tuning for that safety I would figure the hottest part of the day, highest ambient temps, uphill in overdrive, with as much boost as you dare. And this condition neither reflects the typical tuning on a dyno nor does it reflect typical street driving in 1:1 gearing, so where is the line drawn? Or how can we manage the line so the curve fits ALL situations and not just the very cold or lightly loaded ones on a typical lightweight dyno roller while having a meltdown in traffic or mile highway racing. (hint: use the large turbine)

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Old 05-10-2020, 12:42 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Dboyizmlg View Post
Yes it is!!!

You can also buy it T25 style flange which will be identical in external dimensions


https://www.tf-works.com/garrett-gtx...e-t25-flanged/
whats better for spool response? .86 or .64?
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Old 05-10-2020, 01:08 AM   #33
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Some might be wondering how to fit a compressor map to type of driving

I will share my most recent turbo selection to illustrate

I used matchbot to generate this and make life easy


Units: The graph is in kg/s so here is a conversion at the given air temp:

.2 = 25lb/min
.3 = 40lb/min
.4 = 53lb/min
.5 = 66lb/min


And this is very simple. If you want the fastest spooling turbo possible you would choose the smallest (diameter) compressor wheel that supports the power peak intended. This often leaves nothing in the turbo as it runs off the right side of the map...


Stock turbos run off the map. If you are doing it right in a traffic situation it will run off the map. Those are the fastest turbochargers, but they can generate a very high IAT if they actually fall off the map. Notice how the red dots gradually lead you right off the edge of the map but they don't quite make it off the edge... turning it up a little more and it would totally fall right off and that would start heating up the IAT dramatically so we don't do that.


This is how you select a turbo for that situation (spool character + supports max engine flow rate while ALMOST falling off the map)

Keep in mind these maps are not in mass flow even though they pretend to be. A compressor wheel moves VOLUME not MASS so the mass values shown on the map are actually just PREDICTED mass values based on a constant air temperature. Which means they are not exact since temp moves around wherever it wants which reflects air density and therefore mass flow.

But I digress. The point is adiabatic efficient of the turbo is "GREAT" for the region of the map where the engine spends the most time. e.g. for this turbo, daily driver RPM ranges of 3k to 5k. This is the RPM range to shoot for in most daily drivers. This is where you want the center island adiabatic activity to take place in those vehicles.


So lets look at a drag racing example now instead of a daily driver. How does the map reflect the turbo choice and compressor wheel size?

So here is one I did fast just now, just for this example
https://www.borgwarner.com/go/D2DRAH


This is a 2.0L approx 30psi of boost making 500hp or so.
In this case however notice how the data points are ending near the center island, as opposed to running off the right of the map.

This is the major difference between a street turbo and a drag racing turbo selection.

The street is all about mid-range torque which means minimizing compressor wheel size
The drag racing / peak performance is all about top-end which means you want the coolest air from the turbo at peak output which is why we shoot for the center island instead of the right side of the map.

The drag racing large turbo size will spool slower, but luckily people doing drag racing know how to fix that (2-step etc)
The street turbo which supports a very strong mid-range will spool faster but supports less power overall

To re-cap
for street driving / daily driving / mid range turbo selection of response, choose a turbo that just hits your power goal
For drag racing / all out performance / max hp selection of power, choose a turbo which supports around 30 to 40% more power than you are actually going to make.
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Old 05-10-2020, 01:18 AM   #34
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Ive done so many 2871r cars lets see

ancient tune from wayyyy back


That was a friends car. My father's car has the 84 but its on a full race manifold and fully built so might not be fair...! but Ill try to find it...
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Old 05-10-2020, 01:52 AM   #35
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Okay all this talk of big turbines let me show some example for sr20
this turbo style, age and manufacturer tech

this is the smallest ass turbo they make for our beloved engine and it has an almost... well just look for yourself

its a 2L turbo for a modern engine. This turbo will protect the engine when using gasoline without water injection and without methanol injection and provides more than enough power to facilitate the installation of rods and pistons.
It would work well in very hot environments or with high EGT.

If you can do rods and pistons, and build the 2L, I would go next step up in turbo 650hp and sprinkle nitrous progressive up to 75hp is plenty, to get it moving.
At rods pistons though you are also def flex fuel and haltech, its a whole extra level of costs, Alcohol is expensive and you've five to ten times the cost of supplies and maintenance then. there is invisible costs associated with built engines that clock is ticking and there is an engine on a shelf or you are doing it wrong. One is none and two is one.
So alcohol, nitrous, 650hp top mount turbo, what are we missing. God what transmission will we use? There is nothing. OH I remember this now, lol. This was the question I kept asking myself back in the day, "I want 750hp through a few useful gears, what transmission will I use?" When you start drag racing competitively, the only transmission you can use faithfully is automatic transmission. And there is no way I would choose to weigh down a 2L with an auto lol. It cost just as much to build a 5.3L as it does a 2L. So anyways, you just don't. You don't build the 2L engine, its crazy to do that pathway, you don't go for the 650hp turbo, you don't sprinkle much nitrous. But DO gain ethanol and do choose a brand new turbo unit if you have a good condition engine you are trying to protect from a reputable company borg warner or garret only IMO


I'm not saying everyone should go bigger. But I would personally after experiencing the whole thing from within and without, I will not use a T-25 flange turbo ever again unless it was a rule and then I would be in there porting it to the absolutely maximum, wheres codyace dynograph extrude hone T-25 example when you need it...
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Old 05-10-2020, 07:24 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Kingtal0n View Post
(diarrhea of words)
I am with you on the BW argument, having gone the route of an $800 BW S257SX-E in favor of a $2k Garrett 3076 myself, but...

It's nice you're trying to 'teach a man how to fish' but, and maybe this is just me being a jaded old dude, I don't think that the level of time/effort you put into explaining all of that is commiserate with the knowledge gain the OP is going to get anyhow, so it's more of a 'flex' but meh. IMHO you're definitely on the FAR side of the bell curve here of cost-to-benefit. That's totally your call to make but...

Back on topic, yeah that's what it really comes down to here; value. It's 2020 and there are some fantastic journal bearing options (or bb for that matter) for a fraction of what their equivalents cost 5 or 10 years ago. OP, it's your car and you're the only one who matters on what parts make you happy on your car. Someone wanting to spend a lot of money to say they have X Garrett turbo is equivalent to people donking out their rides and spending $5k on wheels for a $2k Caprice in my opinion, but it's not my car. There are applications where it matters, but those applications generally involve sponsors and lap timers and I appreciate them greatly for the money they throw at advancing technology for the end user like myself. Maybe it's more of a cookbook thing and they're copying a build they read about that made XX power and they want that instead of either learning how to plot the compressor map or work with a reputable tuner shop? Probably more of the second.

OP, much of the advice you have been given is sound. Borg Warner, Garrett, and Precision all have some great quality options out there today. Take some time deciding where you want to spend your money (aka end goal of the car) and either start working with a knowledgeable and reputable tuner in your area, or start digging around the wealth of knowledge that is this forum and go from there. The only way you're going to end up disappointed is by installing a bunch of patch-work components on your car from various build lists or rando internet wizards without understanding them. Your car will be a lot more enjoyable to you when everything works in harmony with how you're trying to use it.
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Old 05-10-2020, 12:44 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by NukeKS14 View Post
I am with you on the BW argument, having gone the route of an $800 BW S257SX-E in favor of a $2k Garrett 3076 myself, but...

It's nice you're trying to 'teach a man how to fish' but, and maybe this is just me being a jaded old dude, I don't think that the level of time/effort you put into explaining all of that is commiserate with the knowledge gain the OP is going to get anyhow, so it's more of a 'flex' but meh.

The info is here for a long enough time that others can come back to see it when they are more well equipped.
These topics have already been answered 'troll topics' about T-25 turbos have at least 9000 of them to answer these questions "Do a search" Thus I consider this topic already 'closed' and 'obsolete' so my posts are basically ib4tl to absorb time but also provide accurate helpful info insights


It happens even to me sometimes,
I've been trying to learn some basic things about coding arduino microprocessors in my spare time
https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=647978.0


so anyways here someone kingtal0n's me
https://www.edaboard.com/showthread....=1#post1672198

its not like he had to make that super long post but I will find it extremely helpful and now its there forever so I can learn more and come back to it in a new light and see things a different way each time, I'll just keep using my own common sense to determine if it makes sense. Or something. We need to learn to fish, there are some experience that books can't teach and visca versa. We might never work in a power plant but by conversing with those that do we can learn insights that books alone aren't enough to give for example.

an extremely long worded difficult to break down message which contains the secrets necessary to increase level as Engineer
have you tried reading a mathematic methods book or linear equations? they dont read like the novels of Anatomy and physiology thats for sure.
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Old 05-10-2020, 08:36 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by 5t341tH View Post
whats better for spool response? .86 or .64?


.64 all day long is far better for response!!!

That will get you around 330-350whp with small cam upgrade (Tomei 256)
On pump gas


If you tune on E85 you are looking at 400whp but you will need at least injector dynamics 1050cc
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Old 05-11-2020, 09:30 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by e30gangsta View Post
Another option is the new ns400. I haven't seen anyone mention it yet. Dual ball bearing, 400 wheel hp, bolt on, no need for a new manifold, or external wg, and you can use an existing turbo elbow/down pipe.

https://mmpturbos.com/blogs/news/wel...e-family-ns400
$1700 is a big chunk of change tho.
For my money i'd go with something else.
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it'll fit JANK.. and no one likes Jank except Broke ass zilvians.
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Old 05-11-2020, 10:49 AM   #40
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The worst about it, king has some VERY good info on these pages. However, again, dyno numbers are literally 20-30% of the equation. For instance, EFR has mixed flow turbine wheel on the 7163, and the gamma ti material is half the weight of the equivalent new Garrett Inconel wheels.

Unless one is spending several thousands for "real" simulation dyno runs (for example, RPM based tip in throttle), the technology inherent in the EFRs is NOT going to show up on a simple, foot to the floor dyno......

I can promise you; a 400WHP SR20VET on a EFR 7163, is going to have an entirely different characteristic than a bog standard S13 SR20DET with a GT2871R turned up to 400WHP. Or even a S14/S15 with VVT on the same GT2871R turned up to 400WHP.

King continues to fail to address this point. Real world drivability is entirely different among the three........

However, a bottom mount T25 flange turbo is........a pain. Small M6 studs ALWAYS stretch (inconel helps a bit) and blow gaskets. Vband or T3/T4 flange with M8 studs/bolts.

To the OP; a .64 will have "better" (relative) spool than the equivalent .86

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Old 05-11-2020, 11:54 AM   #41
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However, a bottom mount T25 flange turbo is........a pain. Small M6 studs ALWAYS stretch (inconel helps a bit) and blow gaskets. Vband or T3/T4 flange with M8 studs/bolts.
nord locks help too, but obv they can't compensate for stretched studs.
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it'll fit JANK.. and no one likes Jank except Broke ass zilvians.
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Old 05-11-2020, 12:30 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Dboyizmlg View Post
.64 all day long is far better for response!!!

That will get you around 330-350whp with small cam upgrade (Tomei 256)
On pump gas


If you tune on E85 you are looking at 400whp but you will need at least injector dynamics 1050cc
Thanks. I?m currently using s15 t28 with 740cc and tomei poncams. My goal is 350 but I’m on Cali’s 91 pump gas. I’m more concern on boost response than all out power. My Datsun is lightweight already.
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Old 05-11-2020, 01:41 PM   #43
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I've only had one T2 gasket let go in 8+ years of bottom-mount gt(x)28 ownership, for what it's worth. I usually do 3-4 track days a year and drive it plenty hard.

I am currently debating with myself on a g25-550 (I wish there was a bottom mount option...) but it's hard to argue with the simplicity of a 2863/67, t25 inlet and 5 bolt outlet. A flex section in the downpipe and running the exhaust hanger from the trans mount is key to keeping the t2 studs/gaskets happy.
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Old 05-11-2020, 02:05 PM   #44
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I've only had one T2 gasket let go in 8+ years of bottom-mount gt(x)28 ownership, for what it's worth. I usually do 3-4 track days a year and drive it plenty hard.

I am currently debating with myself on a g25-550 (I wish there was a bottom mount option...) but it's hard to argue with the simplicity of a 2863/67, t25 inlet and 5 bolt outlet. A flex section in the downpipe and running the exhaust hanger from the trans mount is key to keeping the t2 studs/gaskets happy.
similar story here. i used to blow through 4bolt turbo gaskets or 3bolt downpipe to elbow gaskets about every 4 months. Once i switched to Moonface 1pc oval downpipe/elbow, i never had another gasket blow out in 6+ years of heavy use (track use, daily driving, cross country trips). Having a properly mounted exhaust that doesn't scrape will make a huge improvement on how much force gets transmitted.
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it'll fit JANK.. and no one likes Jank except Broke ass zilvians.
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Old 05-11-2020, 02:11 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by RalliartRsX View Post

King continues to fail to address this point. Real world drivability is entirely different among the three........

actually you just failed to read, I covered the power isn't important aspect quite clearly several places

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingtal0n View Post
...So while the same displacement is present there is a vast chasm of technology looming between the old and new which cannot be jumped by just turning up the wick on power...


therefore the metric of an sr20det for typical owners (daily drivers I guess) is no longer performance metric (power) based...

it should be enjoyed at much less than break-neck power and maintained with quality parts...

...whereas the vehicle as whole behavior is so far removed from that peak power potential that it makes absolutely no difference in anything other than peak racing situations. In reality the peak power is generally unimportant in the grand scheme of driving a car around town like a regular car, and there are many times when you will ask much less than peak from each gear and still want the car to behave "fun" and be safe.
my entirely philosophy is that power is meaningless and to buy based on safety and standards, simplicity, and finally cost if applicable.
Sorry I know its alot to read. I am not blaming anyone. Just saying the info is in there, you just need a effective way of converting words into useful thought
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Old 05-11-2020, 02:23 PM   #46
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.........so then why would you recommend

1) He shouldn't spend any more than a T3/T04E because all he want's is 300WHP and then throw a bunch of dyno graphs around like it tells the full story??
2) Throw around random assumptions about an engines price tag, etc and have that dictate what the OP should spend HIS own money on??
3) Also stating blanket statement like a "T25" for climate (whatever the fuck that means) is nonsense. Last EFR 7163 I saw in T2 housing made 500WHP easily. Top mount T518 (if I remember correctly) in NZ (hot as balls) made 390 WHP without blinking.

My all stock Redtop (bought for $1500 locally) made 320 reliable WHP for 15 track days and didn't have a single failure. I didn't need to spend "$7000" to upgrade to a "$1500" (EFR) turbo.......

Literally in one post you state "I would throw a T3/T04E because $$$, then state the new technology stuff is awesome, but not worth the penny". You say alot of good info, but tend to contradict post to post.....

In my eyes, they new technology stuff IS worth the penny and it is the OP OWN money. If he want's a GTX, let the man be.......
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Old 05-11-2020, 04:02 PM   #47
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.........so then why would you recommend

1) He shouldn't spend any more than a T3/T04E because all he want's is 300WHP and then throw a bunch of dyno graphs around like it tells the full story??
2) Throw around random assumptions about an engines price tag, etc and have that dictate what the OP should spend HIS own money on??
3) Also stating blanket statement like a "T25" for climate (whatever the fuck that means) is nonsense. Last EFR 7163 I saw in T2 housing made 500WHP easily. Top mount T518 (if I remember correctly) in NZ (hot as balls) made 390 WHP without blinking.

My all stock Redtop (bought for $1500 locally) made 320 reliable WHP for 15 track days and didn't have a single failure. I didn't need to spend "$7000" to upgrade to a "$1500" (EFR) turbo.......

Literally in one post you state "I would throw a T3/T04E because $$$, then state the new technology stuff is awesome, but not worth the penny". You say alot of good info, but tend to contradict post to post.....

In my eyes, they new technology stuff IS worth the penny and it is the OP OWN money. If he want's a GTX, let the man be.......
couple things I guess,

I am being contradictive for a couple reasons. One is because ive been out of the sr20 world for so long I forgot some things. Which I am slowly remembering as we continue. that is why my original suggestions are seeming contradictory (they are, you aren't crazy, sorry) When we started I figured the engine has 200,000 miles so I was thinking temp turbo. That makes me jump to the T04E everybody has sitting on a shelf. Like if you literally call the closest turbo place they probably have one just sitting there unused, nobody wants it, $30 to rebuilt and stick it on the ancient high mileage engine and go for now. The idea is basically 350rwhp from any sr20 should be free, immediately, using basic junk. IOW I wouldn't pay anything to get 350 from a 2.0L lol, not 2k not 500, it should be free.

then I found it it has only 110k miles or something. At this point I am waking up and asking myself what was the ideal turbo to...
and then I remembered about the whole T-25 hole thing. I have had enough T-25 turbine turbo to understand that I will never want to use one again. Ever. No matter what. Unless of course I was in an extremely cold climate.

its just... tuning strategy based on what I understand about gasoline

The exhaust gas literally takes up more space the hotter it gets and one thing I love about gasoline (or hate) is how much heat is available from it anytime you want it, and anytime you don't want it. So you see, a nice big turbine hole is going to let you be very conservative with ignition timing, its like opening a tuning window full of safety nets. You can use very low timing values and throw excess gasoline derived energy right into that hole because its got plenty of room, see? The EGT won't rise as quickly, pressure won't rise rapidly. This technique serves to boost turbine performance (makes up for the huge turbine) AND protect the engine at high temperature on pump fuel with a weak piston, even at high boost pressures say 25 to 28psi maybe even 32psi on 93 octane is possible if done right, because the turbo will now thrive at very high brake specific fuel consumption (terrible engine efficiency) which serves to protect the engine from detonation and the bad things that happen when you push timing all without the negative effects of raising EGT and EGP (temp and pressure) trying to force all that energy through the tiny T-25 sized hole (in an already heat-soaked environment, tucked under the armpit of a 1800*F manifold, there is no relief).

If you are willing to use water injection with a sprinkle of methanol then you can trash compressor flow rate potential to gain back the safety margin of low temperature exhaust... and keep the T-25 but now you need an enormous compressor flow rate to make up for the energy sapping that water brings to the table. You are better off using E85 at that point. Whereas the huge turbine can get by without water, and methanol would only improve the safety margin for tuning, whereas with the T-25 hole methanol would raise the temp further despite it increasing the octane because meth is still a fuel and will burn.

I'm not concerned about spending $$ if the engine is worth it, see that my recommendation is based on safety and tuning perspective only, not performance or power.
And there is the best of both, twin scroll to consider. Which is superior to anything afaik and barely discussed. I can see why given the OEM engine nevertheless it offers both a large turbine potential and spool character of a smaller turbo.



naxsht
Dynojet is a standard
Those aren't just dyno graphs, they are dynojet standardized roller graphs.
I never use any other dynometer and many also subscribe to this type of dynometer because its numbers never lie, they cannot be fooled higher or lower as any other dyno can be. Therefore it is a fair comparison between cars when examining these type of graphs and it does lend a standardized measurement to compare against any other vehicle or engine using the same dynometer.

In other words I can be assured when I see 400rwhp dynojet that a 3000lb vehicle will run a very specific MPH range at the 1/4 mile track. The performance metric is extremely meaningful. Likewise if a brand new car put down 400 and my car puts down 400 its a fair gambit at whichever is lighter or has a better driver, there won't be any surprise gap between the numbers on the chart. However there can be marked difference in traction control and torque delivery priority or gear ratio shenanigans that newer cars will utilize torque more effectively to gain an advantage (which is why sr20 is not about power anymore, don't chase the peak number)

Now, there are still plenty of ways to fool a turbo torque/spool curve. I could for example load the engine on the dyno's brake prior to recording the run, this will show more an 'instant spool' on the dynoplot if done properly. This is why video footage of dyno runs is very helpful in nailing down how the run was performed, or data logs at least. Once you have those conditions, and the torque curve from a dynojet, you have everything you need if you know how your vehicle weight compares to the dynojet roller weight. Which fwiw is very close to representing a 3000lb vehicle in terms of road load
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Old 05-11-2020, 06:04 PM   #48
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$1700 is a big chunk of change tho.
For my money i'd go with something else.
What other turbo out there has similar specs and allows you to use your exsisting 5 bolt elbow/downpipe/bottom mount manifold with that kind of performance? It doesn't exist that I know of.
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Old 05-11-2020, 07:48 PM   #49
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cant resist... T-25 is like this now, it has an effect on what is available from other companies

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GT2871R-T28...MAAOSwrklVbN28

14 sold and 0 reviews. Huh. You'd think there would be 13 people complaining
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Old 05-11-2020, 08:55 PM   #50
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Hey for what its worth:

My redtop s13 was tuned today on an ECUMasters Black, 91 octane, gtx2867 with tial vband housing, 17psi. Made ~305whp, didnt finish the tune today.

Tomorrow, finishing up the pump gas tune, then jumping to ethanol and ~22psi. Hoping to make 350-360ish. Stock sr trans which I'm tryin to keep rocking... so going to call it quits right around there.

External gate, top mount manifold. 850cc injectors in stock rail.

I guess I didn't really answer any questions that have been asked... just saw the thread title and figured this was relevant lol

Will report back with final numbers. And I'm interested to see how quickly it can build 22psi.
Hopefully tomorrow!
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Old 05-11-2020, 10:41 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackmags91 View Post
Hey for what its worth:

My redtop s13 was tuned today on an ECUMasters Black, 91 octane, gtx2867 with tial vband housing, 17psi. Made ~305whp, didnt finish the tune today.

Tomorrow, finishing up the pump gas tune, then jumping to ethanol and ~22psi. Hoping to make 350-360ish. Stock sr trans which I'm tryin to keep rocking... so going to call it quits right around there.

External gate, top mount manifold. 850cc injectors in stock rail.

I guess I didn't really answer any questions that have been asked... just saw the thread title and figured this was relevant lol

Will report back with final numbers. And I'm interested to see how quickly it can build 22psi.
Hopefully tomorrow!


Those numbers seem very low for that turbo.

What cams are you using ???
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Old 05-12-2020, 02:18 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Dboyizmlg View Post
Those numbers seem very low for that turbo.

What cams are you using ???
it must be stock cams or there is something wrong with that engine

inb4stockcams

also he could be measuring boost from the hot-pipe which could be 2-4psi higher than intake
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Old 05-12-2020, 06:47 AM   #53
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..........or maybe he's on a heart breaker dyno.

Otherwise I agree, low numbers are low numbers
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Old 05-12-2020, 12:11 PM   #54
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Lol yep, stock cams. Stock everything up top other than BC springs, retainers, keepers, and guides. Its a street car. Wanted to keep the stop light drive-ability to some extent. Will certainly see some local Friday night drift events but that's about it.
It's a MAP setup, so I believe boost reference is taken inside the manifold? Also like I said yesterday, the 91 tune isn't completely done yet. I bet he can squeeze another 10-20 hp out of it.

Could be a heart breaker dyno... idk. I'm at Black Market Racing in Phoenix, AZ. They seem to have a good reputation and have been pretty good to me so far.

It's a zero mile engine - completely broken down, tanked, and rebuilt with the stuff I listed in my last post, along with Manley H-beams and CP 9:1's...
I should mention that the motor (entire car) sat cold for 2+ years after the engine build. I was a little worried about that before this recent first-start, but nothing I can do about time gone by... Life got in the way
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Old 05-12-2020, 12:41 PM   #55
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91 octane sucks lol

What dyno are you using??
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Old 05-12-2020, 04:50 PM   #56
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lol the sr20 is not large enough displacement to utilize effective torque at 2500rpm

the stock transmission will take the sr past 3500 immediately from a dead stop, even driving gently its just a split second

the stock cam is completely unnecessary and it cuts off perhaps 25% or more of the power potential.. 300 instead of 370.
If it makes 350 on E at 22psi that would be over 400rwhp on pump gas and 18psi if it had even a small cam
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Old 05-12-2020, 05:01 PM   #57
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You have it backwards......

He's not going to make more power on pump with less boost.......unless the tuner is an utter idiot

Stock cams will do 350 wheel with some boost.
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Old 05-12-2020, 06:19 PM   #58
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You have it backwards......

He's not going to make more power on pump with less boost.......unless the tuner is an utter idiot

Stock cams will do 350 wheel with some boost.
uh power will go up 25% with a cam. I get 400 all the time at 18psi with a cam.

Hes barely going to hit 350 using E85 and 22psi with the OEM cam?

not backwards bro

stock cams will do what aftermarket cams will do... with like 5psi extra boost. And the number goes up with rpm, i.e. 5psi at 5k, 6psi at 6k, 7psi at 7k
not exactly but the higher you go the worse the OEM cam will do the more boost you need to match aftermarket cam

At the end of the day they can support identical power but you will just need more boost with the OEM cam
....Which is really annoying. Having plumbing pop apart at 25psi when you only need 19psi and shit.
The other factor is compressor map. Pressure ratio and flow wind up somewhere on that map, and if you increase pressure without increasing flow you move up but not to the right. Most of the time that puts you out of an efficiency island because the majority of compressor maps tend to lean towards the right which favors increasing flow WITH increasing pressure.
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Old 05-15-2020, 03:23 PM   #59
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love all the knowledge being dropped in here
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Old 05-15-2020, 03:29 PM   #60
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Numbers are in for now.
365hp on e54 at 19psi. And yes I'm sure just adding a cam would bring it up around 400.
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