What the EFR turbos should have been

[Def]

Anyone currently thinking about purchasing an EFR? I've got a line on some wholesale discounts for them (very slight in low qtys, should get better with more qty), but if there's interest I'll setup a group buy and see what sort of pricing we can all get.

The Full-Race $900 T4 TS manifold also looks very tasty for a lifetime warranty manifold that's made right.

[LuckyX2]

I'm very much so leaning towards buying a T4 7163 as a graduation present to myself this spring. Would your discount on just the turbo be competitive with the presumed discount I'd get buying the whole package (turbo, manifold, dp) from Full-Race?

[Def]

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

I'm very much so leaning towards buying a T4 7163 as a graduation present to myself this spring. Would your discount on just the turbo be competitive with the presumed discount I'd get buying the whole package (turbo, manifold, dp) from Full-Race?

I don't know what FR's pricing is on a complete kit, so I can't comment on that. Nor do I really know what the pricing could get doing a higher volume of business.

But with pure speculation, yes, I think the discount I get on a single turbo is probably cost competitive with what FR would add it to a package.

[turtl631]

Divided T4 IWG 7163 sounds tasty for a track car setup. I may be in for some such thing in the near future.

[cole d]

When will the t4 version be ready?

[Def]

Already ready. Just a question of placing the order and waiting to get your turbo (they're clearing backlog now).

I'm trying to round up some interest for a bit of a discount in numbers. No money being made here, just passing on the savings as I need to hit $5k to up the discount percentage on an order.

Full-Race also has a very reasonably priced EFR T4 TS manifold for the SR. Can't beat it for the price and lifetime warranty IMO.

[LuckyX2]

Keep me penciled in for a T4 TS, Def.

I'm almost certainly picking one up, it's just a matter of when I'm ready for it (early summer?), who has it in stock and who has the best prices.

Assuming you have access to them when I'm ready and your price is also better than whatever Full-Race can do for a whole bundle, I'll be going through you.

[PoorMans180SX]

I was reading through the EFR thread on NASIOC and came across this interesting quote that Geoff posted from the lead engineer at BW:

"The point of the 7163 was to have a small and light turbo (B1 frame) that will squeak out ~500hp while still spooling/transient as close to a stock-sized turbo as possible.

That being said, if you separate the topics of spool versus transient response - the inertia difference of 7163 vs. 7064 vs. 7670 is significant. We have B2 EFR turbos for people that want bigger power levels! The twinscroll 7163 isn’t for the dynochart crowd, it’s to squeak out 500hp and still feel awesome at 2500rpm. I fully expect a singlescroll 7163 IWG or 7163 EWG to make more top end power. And yes, a 7064C will also make more top end power (especially at very high rpm where dP is more harmful) "

[Def]

Yep, it's more of a response based turbo. That said, I think 500 rwhp and good response is about as crazy as I'd want to go for a non-drag SR. There's just not enough displacement for a say >600 rwhp powerband that doesn't suck unless you can keep it on boil 100% of the time over a narrow window.

The B2 frame EFRs are freakin' huge too, so this little extra headroom and a TS housing in a B1 frame sounds great to me.

Then again, I'm not too crazy about posting up the most amazing dynocharts around.

[cole d]

What kind of price can you get on a Efr 7163 T4 twinscroll? I'm on the wait list at Full Race. I tried to buy one but they would not take my money because the turbo was not in stock.

[cotbu]

Originally Posted by cole d

What kind of price can you get on a Efr 7163 T4 twinscroll? I'm on the wait list at Full Race. I tried to buy one but they would not take my money because the turbo was not in stock.

It's because 6 year old's can't legally enter into a contract, unless it's on the playground, well there, we all agree that girls have cooties.

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

The twinscroll 7163 isn’t for the dynochart crowd, it’s to squeak out 500hp and still feel awesome at 2500rpm. I fully expect a singlescroll 7163 IWG or 7163 EWG to make more top end power. And yes, a 7064C will also make more top end power (especially at very high rpm where dP is more harmful) "[/I]

Is he saying that a 7064 will make more power than a 7163 or that a single scroll 7064 will make more than a twin scroll 7064? If he's saying a 7064 will make more than a 7163 (with the same AR), I'm not sure I agree with him; the compressor maps say otherwise. The 7163 map picks up earlier and falls off later than the 7064, it's very wide and pretty much leaves no reason to buy a 7064. The 6758 and 7670 still have a place below and above it though

[PoorMans180SX]

He is saying that the twin-scroll 7163 will be turbine housing limited, and that a 7064 will actually make more top end. The 7064 seems to be very unpopular, and hard to find real results for....

So the real question is how much response are you giving up with the v-band housing? No one currently knows...

[Def]

The mixed flow wheel in the 7163 has its efficiency peak at lower Uc/Uo ratios(0.5-0.6). This translates into better shaft torque when the wheel is moving slower relative to the exhaust gas speed than a normal radial flow designed wheel that will typically peak the efficiency in the Uc/Uo range of about 0.7-0.8.

The tradeoff is you'll have a bit more backpressure at high RPM/high boost situations as the wheel falls out of its ideal Uc/Uo range vs. the radial flow wheel that's really in its sweet spot.


That said, at a 500 rwhp turbo on a 2L level, I'm more than willing to throw away a few HP capacity up top for a better mid-range powerband and sooner spool. How often are you in boost in an engine that powerful on our light cars and wishing you had another 10 HP? How often are you out of boost at say 3k RPM and flooring it and wishing you had another 10 HP? I'd say the later fits my usage on track well on those rare corners that fall a bit out of 3rd's powerband, but are almost all too fast/short to think about 2nd in a 500 rwhp car.

[FullRaceGeoff]

hey guys - a little timeline update: the singlescroll 7163 will start to show up later this month, but the twinscroll T4 7163 is still behind another 4-6 weeks or so. I would not expect to see these turbos readily available for a bit longer still, but as usual we have all the other EFR turbos in stock (BW takes a while to get the new products into production...) - thanks have a great weekend

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by Def

That said, at a 500 rwhp turbo on a 2L level, I'm more than willing to throw away a few HP capacity up top for a better mid-range powerband and sooner spool. .

I personally feel the same way as you, I just wanted to post the info so nobody bought one expecting their twin-scroll 7163 to make 600whp.

I find it pretty amazing that I haven't come across anyone complaining about surge on their EFR's, and that they can put a twin-scroll 7163 on an engine as big as an ecoboost with a non-ported inlet and be fine.

[Def]

Yea, I honestly think with the expected response and 500 rwhp it'll be a pretty awesome turbo. But I know what you mean on the guys wanting to post up huge dyno numbers.

I was thinking about a GTX3071R with a TiAL housing for a long while, but honestly the spool was not looking that great on it. The GTX 71mm wheel seems to also flow more at lower wheel RPM than the old GT 71 mm wheel, so you're asking for even more torque out of the very high trim UHP 60 mm wheel - which it doesn't seem all that great at producing.

I was kinda disappointed at the prospect once you add up all of the items needed $$$ wise, and even though I still think IWGs offer some compromises vs. a good external setup, I think on a twin scroll the cost and difficulty kills going that way with a GTX. And the TiAL housing added quite a bit of expense on top of the kinda pricey GTX.

I even considered the EFR6758, but it's probably more comfortable at 400-420 rwhp range, and any more is really pushing it(yes it can do it, but it's running off the map and IATs and backpressure at shooting up). I'm willing to accept a little more inertia and slightly higher spool RPM to get some more headroom above there. So the 7163 fits the bill perfectly.

No surprises on BW slowly rolling stuff out, but hopefully the wait isn't as long as it was for the first roll out of EFRs.

[LuckyX2]

Jager Racing's STI with a 7163 just took first place in the Redline Time Attack Street class. 1:55.3 at Chuckwalla Valley Raceway is a class record.

Notice the 240sx in 1st overall also

[LuckyX2]

Has anyone seen THIS also?

This guy apparently pulled 400whp out of the smallest EFR, the 6258, at 27psi but dropping off to 18 by redline. Says his previous GT2871 was good for 352whp at 18psi, meaning this smaller turbo outdid it by nearly 50whp.

All this on a stock head/block and 93 octane. I'm amazed if this is accurate and not the work of a lucky dyno.

The 7163 flows 16lbs/min more than the 6258...

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

Has anyone seen THIS also?

This guy apparently pulled 400whp out of the smallest EFR, the 6258, at 27psi but dropping off to 18 by redline. Says his previous GT2871 was good for 352whp at 18psi, meaning this smaller turbo outdid it by nearly 50whp.

All this on a stock head/block and 93 octane. I'm amazed if this is accurate and not the work of a lucky dyno.

The 7163 flows 16lbs/min more than the 6258...

yeah but the torque from a 2871 comes out 1000 rpm sooner and sits on an OEM exhaust manifold.
also, 27psi on 93 octane sounds like abuse

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

yeah but the torque from a 2871 comes out 1000 rpm sooner and sits on an OEM exhaust manifold.
also, 27psi on 93 octane sounds like abuse

You sure about that? THIS is the highest power 2871 build I found on Evans Tuning dynosheet database and it's making 320ft-lbs at 4k rpm. The 6258 dyno I just posted is making nearly the same at 4k (310ft-lbs).

Keep in mind the 6258 is on a stock head too, this 2871 dyno has cams. And the OEM manifold is an advantage in the case that we're talking spool. It's shorter than a tubular, so it spools quicker.

I really don't think you're going to be able to find a 2871 stock SR on 93 that makes 310ft-lbs at 3k, that's ridiculously early torque.

[FullRaceGeoff]

charles' setup is stupid simple to be making 200tq @3300rpm and 300tq@3900rpm.. a beat-down-tired haggard redtop SR20 with a FReddy intake manifold. stock everything internally, FR manifold + EFR6258 soft wg spring + 3" downpipe and a random front mount. ive driven a lot of sr's and 2871, none of them hold a candle to this. you can compare dyno charts, but until you are in the driver's seat with an EFR onboard you can't appreciate the difference from an internet discussion forum... the soft wg spring is not helping him, but the setup is absolutely rock solid reliable and roasts tires. also i dont see how he can make that much boost on this soft spring, doesnt seem right, should be more like 20-21 max

[LuckyX2]

I'll never understand these people that spend $1600 on a brand new turbo, then don't throw down the extra $50 for the stiffer wastegate and miss out on a bunch of power up top. So many builds out there tained by things like that. It's rare to find a dyno sheet that isn't followed by limitations like not having the right wastegate, or it had a boost leak, or it was misfiring, etc.

Get your shit together people!

Hopefully I'll be able to post some good data when I get a 7163 eventually. E85, 10.5:1 compression, S3 cams, freddy manifold, FR exhaust manifold, etc; my setup ought to be able to wring out whatever power is in it and then do some datalogging with my Haltech to share with everyone. I just hope my transmission holds...

[RalliartRsX]

Originally Posted by FullRaceGeoff

charles' setup is stupid simple to be making 200tq @3300rpm and 300tq@3900rpm.. a beat-down-tired haggard redtop SR20 with a FReddy intake manifold. stock everything internally, FR manifold + EFR6258 soft wg spring + 3" downpipe and a random front mount. ive driven a lot of sr's and 2871, none of them hold a candle to this. you can compare dyno charts, but until you are in the driver's seat with an EFR onboard you can't appreciate the difference from an internet discussion forum... the soft wg spring is not helping him, but the setup is absolutely rock solid reliable and roasts tires. also i dont see how he can make that much boost on this soft spring, doesnt seem right, should be more like 20-21 max

That makes more sense, as although the numbers are impressive, that almost 10psi drop over a few thousand RPM is not ideal and in small turbo territory, that's an overworked turbo (if the wastegate or turbine housing is not to blame atleast).

Howevere, I fully agree with the statement in regards to drivability. It's difficult to extrapolate such a "ghostly" from the dyno

[Mannykiller]

Well I don't know about you guys but I am a firm believer after this. A buddy of mine did a direct swap on his fd rx7. I'll be running an externally gated version with a larger hot side. But here is a quote from his build thread.

"so i dyno tuned today, and the short story is that this turbo is awesome. running the same boost as my previous 6262 setup, it made 12psi 1500rpms sooner, and made the exact same power. here are the graphs below (scales are different, and different software, but you can see the difference in response)

so the result was 338whp @ 12psi with very good boost response."


A video
http://youtu.be/VEGLyYgZUhI

I mean look at the tq.... Yes oem ported rotaries will have more linear earlier tq than a ported motor but still. This is just unheard of. Can't wait to get my car running on spring pressure (14lbs) on 91 Octane and 20lbs on e85. Looking forward to the forward progress with our cars and this new turbo!!

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

yeah but the torque from a 2871 comes out 1000 rpm sooner and sits on an OEM exhaust manifold.

also, 27psi on 93 octane sounds like abuse

6258 fits just fine on a stock manifold.

http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=470359

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by RalliartRsX

That makes more sense, as although the numbers are impressive, that almost 10psi drop over a few thousand RPM is not ideal and in small turbo territory, that's an overworked turbo (if the wastegate or turbine housing is not to blame atleast).

It's the wastegate.

[Def]

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

I'll never understand these people that spend $1600 on a brand new turbo, then don't throw down the extra $50 for the stiffer wastegate and miss out on a bunch of power up top. So many builds out there tained by things like that. It's rare to find a dyno sheet that isn't followed by limitations like not having the right wastegate, or it had a boost leak, or it was misfiring, etc.

Get your shit together people!

Hopefully I'll be able to post some good data when I get a 7163 eventually. E85, 10.5:1 compression, S3 cams, freddy manifold, FR exhaust manifold, etc; my setup ought to be able to wring out whatever power is in it and then do some datalogging with my Haltech to share with everyone. I just hope my transmission holds...

I'm interested to see what my future engine can do. SR20DET, forged bottom end, SR20VE head, would like to do SR16VE N1 cams and see what the 7163 can really do on a TS manifold.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

You sure about that? THIS is the highest power 2871 build I found on Evans Tuning dynosheet database and it's making 320ft-lbs at 4k rpm. The 6258 dyno I just posted is making nearly the same at 4k (310ft-lbs).

Keep in mind the 6258 is on a stock head too, this 2871 dyno has cams. And the OEM manifold is an advantage in the case that we're talking spool. It's shorter than a tubular, so it spools quicker.

I really don't think you're going to be able to find a 2871 stock SR on 93 that makes 310ft-lbs at 3k, that's ridiculously early torque.

I did not look at the graph close enough. I now see the boost curve passes 18psi around 3,800rpm. It is very similar to a 2871r, however, the 2871 still produces 30~ftlbs more in the 3500~rpm region, and that is with a tubular manifold AND cams. If you had a stock head with a stock manifold, it would be even quicker. But lets be serious; nobody should run oem cams with any upgraded turbo unless it's a disco.

I have a graph, but for best comparison I should overlay the two. Would you like that?

No it isnt 1,000rpm sooner like I said it was. I typed that without really looking at anything.


I also wasn't aware this turbo would fit the oem manfold as well. Also, I am not saying the 2871 is better by any stretch. It just jumped out at me that it should look quicker on paper.
I'd definetely give this new one a try if I had an sr20det

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

I have a graph, but for best comparison I should overlay the two. Would you like that?

Yeah, that'd be cool if you wanna. I don't think that guy has the best setup to be comparing 2871 setups to though. He basically just slapped a 6258 on a stock SR but most 2871 guys are gonna have cams and other supporting mods. So it's gonna be difficult to draw any kind of conclusion from it. I just thought it was incredible that he got 400whp from such a small turbo. I know Borg's billet wheels really help at higher pressure ratios but still.

Originally Posted by Mannykiller

Well I don't know about you guys but I am a firm believer after this. A buddy of mine did a direct swap on his fd rx7.

Man, you gotta love the way rotaries can spool big turbos.

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

It's the wastegate.

Is it? A 6258 is way off the map at 27psi on a 2L at 7K rpm. I wouldn't expect such a small turbo to hold boost like that to redline.

Originally Posted by Def

I'm interested to see what my future engine can do. SR20DET, forged bottom end, SR20VE head, would like to do SR16VE N1 cams and see what the 7163 can really do on a TS manifold.

Mmmm yes, a VE head. One of a few long term upgrades I still have left to do to my SR. I also have some GTi-R ITB's that I'm gonna throw on one of these days. I'll probably lose some top end but should be worth it for the low/mid and throttle response.