[Wiisass]

Originally Posted by GSXRJJordan

^^^ Tim, I appreciate the time and effort you put into every post you make, especially the suspension- and cage-related ones

Thanks Jordan, posts like yours make it easier for me, there's more info and thought in them than the normal "XXX coilover is awesome because it's really stiff and I can slam my car" posts.

When I first saw the Sevens' adjuster, I thought the same thing you did, but after putting it all together, I had ZERO play in the plastic knob... it definitely stayed put - not saying that the adjuster was a thing of art or the best engineering idea ever, but the adjuster was positively positioned by the alignment of the perch, and the perch was positively positioned by the notched/threaded damper body, so I was sure the valving would be matched on each damper.

I know what you're saying, it just seemed cheap to me. It just seemed like Tanabe was trying to introduce some clever new adjustment method and then capped it off with a cheap looking and feeling plastic adjuster knob. And maybe it was just the ones I had, but they definitely had some play in the knob, it probably wasn't as much as I made it sound in my original post, but I was also assuming that the adjuster inside the damper was a little more sophisticated than it probably is. Since I never had one apart and I never saw what was inside, I really can't be sure.

The springs thing - I'm not saying that a damper company will dictate what springs to run, I'm saying that for most buyers, the motorsport/venue of choice does that for you ~ and if you buy into that mentality, you're searching for spring rate first/damping second. Most people do a little math, search the forums, and then buy a set of springs... it's the same with motorcycles, and believe me, most people that I competed in WERA/CCS/FUSA with were not sprung correctly either. The truth is, the only way to really know is to run different setups (springs/sway setups at least) and figure out which compromise you feel most comfortable with, but that's out of most drivers' effort/cost range.

You're right, people have been lead to thinking that certain spring setups are the best for these cars. And that's without any consideration of weight or sway bar setup or ride height or anything that should be thought about to maintain a good oversteer/understeer balance of the car. But with how much the damping sucks on most of these setups out there right now, people could experiment with spring rates and get the balance back, but I really don't think that most people know.

And besides physical testing of different setups, a lot of math will also get you pretty close to the right base setup. I have some pretty serious spreadsheets that I have been using for the past couple years to get base setups for different cars. But they're a lot more in depth and detailed than most people would ever go. But even just looking at ride frequencies and picking springs based off that would be simple and people could do it.

About adjustability - I agree that for a car that doesn't change weight, you shouldn't need to change springs/ride height once you set it for your chosen duty... but so many of us change wheel setups/aero/etc and enjoy the height adjustability - after all, these are cars that are street driven at least some of the time. I also know that a true 4-way damper has separate high- and low-speed adjustments for comp and rebound, but when you're talking about a coilover that has separate compression and rebound adjustments, every company I've seen calls that a 4-way adjustable unit - just using the "parlance of our times".

I was talking about damping adjustability. I wouldn't think ride height would need to change that much either. I mean with a damper set to the proper length and only height adjustment at the spring perch, you should have a more than sufficient amount of adjustment. I mean you won't be able to go from stock ride height to super slammed, but there will still be some adjustment. And if you have a damper with enough travel, helper spring also work. And how many people really raise and lower their car for events versus driving on the street? Besides throwing off the alignment, it's a pain in the ass to do.

And I see what you're saying about the 4-way adjustable coilover versus the 4-way adjustable damper.

And finally, the F-D suspension "secret"... even with super stiff settings EVERYONE runs, there is enough feedback to let the pros drifting on Megan 12/10 setups compete with the D1 guys drifting on Zeals. There's simply not enough difference in how the dampers perform at the stiff end of the valving to differentiate. So for everyone out there who wants to "buy what the pros use on their 240s", its useless, because you'll never run them that stiff. That was my only point ~

I think the suspension setup for a lot of FD teams is lacking. I know there's some teams that are trying to do good suspension work and it shows in their driving and the results. But I'm sure there's a lot of people competing who wouldn't know the difference between minor suspension changes. But we'll see, I'm hoping to work with a couple FD driver's this season in getting some different dampers on the car and getting stuff dialed in, so we'll see how that goes.

In my opinion, the true quality of a coilover system on s-chassis cars comes in how well they perform when NOT set to full stiff - and I'm naturally the first to point out that I have a fantastic benchmark for all my suspension trials - a mostly stock c5 z06. Lowered using extended bolts, but otherwise stock suspension - and damn hard to beat

Lots of shocks won't work well with the adjuster all the way closed. Depending on the percentage of flow meant to go through the adjuster versus the percentage of the flow that goes through other bleed ports, it's going to hurt the performance of the damper to be at full stiff. It depends on how the piston is designed. If there is bleed through the piston and the adjuster is just additional bleeed then it can work as planned, but if the adjuster is the main bleed valve, the closer you get to closing that, the more cavitation and hysteresis you will have. It just means that the piston wasn't designed to be the bleed and blow off circuits. But I've used good dampers that didn't like the upper range of their adjustment.

I'm hoping that people will start to learn that stiff isn't always the best, especially when it comes to damping. A rough ride isn't good for handling or grip. And not having grip isn't good for drifting. So a rough ride isn't good for drifting. Too much rebound also isn't good for drifting, it will slow the car down in the transitions and you will be fighting to get the car to transition the way you want. A properly valved setup will make the car more point and shoot, it's easier to manipulate, you won't have problems with grip and if you pair it with good spring rates, including sway bars, you will have an awesome setup.

The problem is most people seem more concerned with height adjustability than damping. But not many people know what good damping is or feels like. But everyone knows what low looks like. But hopefully the work that myself, veilside180sx, aceinhole and others are doing will start to show people that good damping will help the car and possibly breaking some of the misconceptions or general brainwashing that has happened in the 240 world in regards to suspension setups.

Tim