Rubber boots for heim joints (pillow ball)

[OptionZero]

I was comparing my Kazama tie rod ends with the end of the SPL V2 Tension Rods, and one big difference is the black rubber (dust?) boot that covers the pillow ball joint of the SPL piece.

It didn't look too complex, and conical rubber piece with what looks like a thin washer glued/fixed to the top.

Does anyone make/sell such pieces in various sizes? I think i'm gonna try putting some on the Kazamas.

[kandyflip445]

SPL sells "Seals-it" seals. Call Kuah and ask him about them. You'll need to know what size. Bust out the ruler.

[theicecreamdan]

heim joints don't need rubber boots, they will just hold in dirt and moisture and speed up rusting.

[OptionZero]

Wasn't there something about Kazamas wearing out? Is that related, or am i mixing up information from too many different threads and forums in my head?

[theicecreamdan]

I think it was the older design on the SPL tie rods, they fixed that problem

http://www.dukesinc.com/images/Trophy%20Truck/Vegas-2.jpg

these guys don't use boots on their heim joints.

[OptionZero]

nono, the SPL Tension rods *do* have the dust boots, the kazamas are the ones i was talking about with possible issues (though I won't be stressing as much as drifters)

[tastyratz]

use the boots its a good idea dont listen to people. I have heims on my car and all my joints seized after 1 winter. get something without a greasable fitting as it is probabbly teflon lined (good) because the grease will hold in contaminants and wash away as well. Having your joints exposed means they will be sprayed with road crap all day long, (bad) Getting those seals is definitely great.... Getting fully sealed enclosing boots is better. Charles park from powertrix sells them and baker precision sells them as well. Bakers got a site if you wanna search for it but Charles is a forum sponsor and you can find any of his posts in the group buys section to get his number

[OptionZero]

thanks i'll contact those guys

[OptionZero]

http://www.bakerprecision.com/rodacc.htm

Looks perfect!

Shit, is the diameter they list for shorter end (away from joint) or wider end (closest to joint)?

Contacted Powertrix as well, waiting to see what they got to say. Their boots are bigger, they look buff (not sure if size matters since its just a seal).
Dunno if they come in right size for kazama.

Hey mods, if this seems useful maybe it can be archived for others looking to find this kinda stuff.

[tastyratz]

This is something people have talked about before so the info is out there. After seeing what 1 winter did to my greased joints I dont mess around. I have BOTH types of seals installed on my car. I have the fully sealing boots powertrix sells and then installed the washer boots with rubber pieces OVER those. The enclosing boots still leave a little bit of space for things to get in and the powertrix boots mixed with the baker end seals make a PERFECT seal leaving 0 ROOM FOR DEBRIS at any angle meaning suspension that wont instantly rot and break with the roads up here. If you want to know what to use for the diameter measure the size of the cone end that is going into the heim joint NOT the bolt bore.

[OptionZero]

So my understanding is...wider end?
Thank you sir.

[OptionZero]

I don't get snow, but i sure as hell get dirt and rocks and shit, maybe occasional hail and i WILL get rain up here.

[OptionZero]

UPDATE:
Baker has boots AND seals, so i'll go there for both after i measure the damn things tonight.

Muchos gracias for the helpo

[tastyratz]

yip its the way to go with both. I know the powertrix full boots have little ridges that the baker seals slide right into i havent seen the baker seals yet.

Measure the bore of the ball joint NOT the center bore of the cone. It should be the same id as the smaller OD of the cones. Thats the size you want to know for the seals

[RBS14]

Some joints need boots, some don't. the ones that don't are the teflon lined joints, they self lubricate, and rid themselves of dirt and moisture through normal operation. Putting a boot on such a bearing WILL trap in moisture, and dirt, wearing it out faster.

The shittier joints that are not teflon lined need boots so nothing gets on the ball bearing suface. So basically if you have the option, get the joint that doesn't need the dust boot.

[tastyratz]

it will trap in moisture and dirt but the amount of damage compared to a constant spray is marginal. if you run both seals you will have PRACTICALLY 0 DEBRIS getting in. I did this on mine and these things are air tight. Every boot will seal in crap if you get it in there, the goal is to get something that will do a better job keeping it out than letting it in. Teflon lined or not a boot keeps out salt spray and dirt/debris better than leaving things open to the elements at all times.

[theicecreamdan]

it will trap in moisture and dirt but the amount of damage compared to a constant spray is marginal. if you run both seals you will have PRACTICALLY 0 DEBRIS getting in. I did this on mine and these things are air tight. Every boot will seal in crap if you get it in there, the goal is to get something that will do a better job keeping it out than letting it in. Teflon lined or not a boot keeps out salt spray and dirt/debris better than leaving things open to the elements at all times.

no even your double boot system will TRAP moisture in and expedite the wearing of your heims, if your setup has decent heim joints the teflon seals wipe away all the crap everytime it moves.

[OptionZero]

I don't recall that the kazamas are teflon sealed

[RBS14]

air tight, you've gotta be kidding me....

[CAMFabrication]

Obviously you guys (besides a handful of a few) don't know what heim joints are capable of. If you were to take a standard FK heim JMX series (which is teflon line) you can expose that to temperatures in excess of 1,000 degrees f. before it begins to fail, and - 300 likewise. Now the ONLY reason people want dust boots is for insurance, but all it does in real life is wear things out. Take for instance, desert racing. My entire suspension and fabrication background comes from an extensive education in the desert racing community. I put a dust boot on a truck I'm prepping for a small 250 mile race and I'm condemming myself for failure. If I take that dustboot off, that heim will finish that race. And I garuntee it.

now any boot that would NEED to offer protection to its spherical bearing would be any CM, CML, CW, or any other ECONOMICAL COMMERCIAL USE heim. These heims have no business on being in any suspension component. Not only do they make alot of noise, but they are metal on metal, creating alot of friction, and have generally a one hundredth of an inch of clearance. EASILY enough to allow water, dirt, dust, mud etc... into the race of the bearing. Now you put a dust boot on for security, and dust, and water, and grime will still work itself into there eventually causing bearing fail. Solution to the problem, don't use shitty bearings. Most of the companies I've seen, dealt with, and spoken to in person in this sport that sell suspension products use cheap metal on metal casted aluminum rod ends, that they get on discount from overseas, to save money. Now in that case your better off staying with stock products unless it's a teflon sealed end.

There's a few of you that know exactly what I'm talking about. tastyratz, obviously you're one of the people who put ziplock bags over their rod ends to keep "contaminents" out of your bearings. Well put it this way, buy a set of my upper arms, or my lower arms, or any multilink I sell for the 240. I'll send you an extra set of rod ends. Put one of my JMX sealed rod ends on one side of the car, without the dustboot, and the CM series non sealed on the other side with a dustboot. Drive the car for a year, without pulling off the rod ends boot and at the end of 1 year take both off. I will garuntee the non sealed one will be toasted and loose as hell, while the sealed one will still be okay. Then take a new set of sealed rod ends, one with a boot cover, one without, and in another year tell me which one is toasted. Garunteed it'll be the one with the boot cover. Now if you still don't believe me, first thing monday morning I'll call both of my spherical bearing suppliers and ask them about what they think of dust boots on heims going on motorsport related vehicles.

Here's a few pictures of vehicles that don't use dust boots that are exposed to much crueler enviroments than you'll ever expirience in your 240s

http://www.off-road.com/race/2004score/primm/
http://www.freeimagehosting.info/t.php?img=5d2e22ca10.jpg
http://www.freeimagehosting.info/t.php?img=d2f023a436.jpg
http://www.freeimagehosting.info/t.php?img=07eb2cf7f3.jpg

[theicecreamdan]

this thread should be archived

[S14DB]

I have Rods without boot ends. After over a year I took them off to install my power brace. sprayed the dirt off with WD40 and they were flawless. No scores or any damage to the joint. This car is daily driven thru everything.

[CAMFabrication]

If your rod ends are teflon lined, that wd40 is the worse thing for you. THey are self lubricating. Just take them off and clean them with compressed air. Putting wd40 on it will over lubricate the ball and prematurely wear it out. Any dirt or grime you have on it should be removed without using any type of wd40 compound. The ONLY thing I would recommend is teflon based lubricants as it doesn't attack the seal.

[kazuo]

Wait a minute...

...

...kazama uses heim joints?

[tastyratz]

no i didnt put ziplock bags on my ball joints :fawk2:
I made sure to get quality ball joints, a good full sized enclosing boot, and then a second boot to just completely seal the joint inside from the outside contaminants (obviously moisture is one thing but air humidity is the least of my worries)
I would like to show you what happens to a non sealed ball joint exposed to 2.5 months of new england winter. This was changed while there was snow on the ground and then replaced with a new temporary one which was already starting to crap out by the end as well. This is just my rucas, I have tension rods, toe arms, and traction rods as well. This WAS a cheap ball joint that was greased.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y126/tastyratz/DSCN9402.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y126/tastyratz/DSCN9446.jpg

After that happening to everything I have I would say thats fairly convincing the environment I expose my car to is just as damaging if not WORSE than desert racing due to salt spray and micro abrasion in combination to larger abrasives. Cover your ball joints in toothpaste and see how long they laste.


You mentioned earlier that you dont want to grease a teflon joint which is understandable and ive been told the same. Certain materials can be corrosive to other materials or detrimental to their function but im curious... How exactly could "over lubricating" a ball joint cause premature failure? what you said makes NO sense. Properly using a compatible lubricant it should IMPROVE things, not cause failure. The less friction the better. thats like saying using mobil 1 will make your engine wear faster than habibbis own brand 75c a quart mom and pops gas station oil.

[TokyoNights]

Ive had battleversion links on my s13 for almost a year with teflon lined heims without boots and havent had a problem.
I just got some powertrix stuff for my s14 and they are teflon lined also but they did come with the rubber boots, so what should I do remove the dust boots?

[S14DB]

This is how mine looked after about a year and a half:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/S14DB/240sx/TCrod.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/S14DB/240sx/TC1large.jpg