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LtSlayer
10-26-2020, 03:51 AM
First post so take it easy on me

I am planning to go solid lifter conversion as well as dual guide on my s13 sr20det in my s14.5.

My biggest question is what are these modifications that people keep mentioning about the rocker arms needing to be machined for the solid lifters, i understand that the right tip of the arm need to be machined for a guide. I haven't found detailed instructions, if they're already going to be machined for the dual guide I can have them modified for solid lifters if need be.

My next question regards the springs and retainers. many threads run BC Ti retainers and springs including the NICO 9,000+ rpm thread but I believe codyace called them junk or garbage when he brought up JWT s3 cams, (I'm likely running tomei 260/260 solid type). I've also seen posts saying that BC retainers are harder than Tomei and others lending itself to longevity.

What makes other retainers like tomei so good that the retainers alone (389.95) cost almost double what the 90LB springs and Ti retainers from BC cost combined (255.96)?

Do oversized +1mm valves really have that much of an impact? wouldn't mind a lopey idle and I'd appreciate the top end.

At the end of the day I want a high revving reliable ~350WHP sr. I have have good compression but plan to go forged internals with ER spec package from enjuku as well as go full standalone. I should be running a t28 but Im not sure whether I'm going top feed or side feed.

Can this make 350 wheel reliably?
open to turbo suggestions, thinking garret gt2871r
MAP conversion
Tomei solid lifters and shims
260/260 solid type cams
CP Carrillo Forged Pistons
Eagle Specialty Products H-beam Connecting Rods
Clevite Bearings
3" straight pipe
megan racing elbow
Stand alone
740cc injectors top or side feed
255 lph pump
blitz 3" intake with apexi intake/initial piping
mishimoto intercooler
possible oversized valves
ARP head studs
koyorad radiator
wiring specialties pro harness
Haltech pro
stock intake manifold, would i need to go topmount for this power goal or is bottom mount fine?

Thank you

S14rebuild
10-26-2020, 05:10 AM
For 350hp u can ditch half that shit....

S3 cam, gt2871r, 750injectors, standalone or rom tune...done

LtSlayer
10-26-2020, 05:40 AM
I want reliability so that's why it's overkill, a lot of those things are already on there. The main things i have yet to add are the:

built head components
map/harness/ecu
injectors
internals

I've already cracked a rocker arm and was lucky enough to not have any damage result from it but want the security that comes with solid lifters and dual guides. do the S3 cams come in solid types? I'm not dead set on tomei but want some cams that let my motor breathe well without getting rid of the bottom end.

I'm likely pulling the motor and opening it up anyways, i found a forged internal kit for 1k so I figured id build in some security for future power upgrades.

Should i keep 8.5 compression or go to 9. I feel that I wouldn't want to pass/get close to 400 hp for a long time. Not sure if the better low end from 9.0 wont come with risks to achieve my HP goal of 350.

do you know anything about the rocker arm mods or can point me to a good thread?

PoorMans180SX
10-26-2020, 07:11 AM
Oh man, so much to dissect from this post.

1. Solid lifters with dual guides means you'll have to re-machine a set of guides each time you need to adjust valve lash. While that's not that often, it will be a PITA to do every time. You need to be more precise than when using hydraulic lifters, so I'm not sure how you plan to do this.

2. 8.5:1 compared to 9:1 is negligible.

3. Stock intake manifold is fine.

4. +1mm intake valves require extensive headwork to utilize properly, including opening up the valve throats and porting them to match the rest of the port. That's not what makes the car lope, the cams do that.

5. If you're really considering a somewhat "all-out" head build like this, why not make a spreadsheet of the costs and compare it to a VE head conversion, since you're taking the engine apart anyway. You can use stock cams and make more power than a "built" DET head.

2_Liter_Turbo
10-26-2020, 07:53 AM
Adding a bit of input since I've done a very similar things.

First off, you don't need to re-machine guides each time you adjust lash, where the heck did you hear that Andy? LOL. You can order a range of guide sizes from Tomei or Nissan. You DO have to machine the rocker arms once for clearance. You also have to modify the tips (per Tomei's instructions) on both sides no matter if you run shims/guides or dual guides.

BC products are generally junk. Now, I haven't had experience with their valve guides, but their cams are trash (inconsistent love separation and profiles for example) and most of their stuff is sourced out of China. If you want to be cheap, run supertech valve retainers. If you run supertech springs, get the softest rate they have (can't remember the rate off hand).

There's some debate from a few experienced SR engine builders on validity of oversized valves on an SR. Dale Malone out of Australia swears that stock size (or even smaller like the GT300 SRs) is king. I personally ran +1 on both intake and exhaust, and the head flowed well, but not as well as heads from Dale Malone... LOL. I'm doing my own research into this, but I am a long way off from coming to my own conclusion (I have about 6 heads I'm scanning, flow benching, and sectioning for research...).

Intake manifold is a huge player in your powerband. Stock intake manifolds are awesome for street driving or Auto-X where on/off throttle is constant, and you need your torque curve lower. Intake manifolds like the Greddy will be much better if you are planning on spinning RPM. BTW, DET heads run out of air around 8,500, so there's no point in running them past that in terms of power, I only went to 9k on occasion when I needed the gearing on the race track.

For reference, my old setup was an S13 DET with headwork, Tomei 260s, solid lifters, supertech springs/retainers, +1 Ferrea valves on both sides, and WPC treated cams/rockers/valves. Machine work on the head was about $1,500 at Portflow in SoCal (this was in 2010-ish). Block had 9:1 CP pistons (Good rods, bearings, and all that jazz) and I ran 740CC injectors on a Greddy manifold. Full-race twin scroll GT3071R (again, this was 2010, so older tech here) kit. Car made up to 465 on a pump/C16 mix, 425 on 92 Oregon gas, and 400 even down here in AZ on 91ACN gas. I had good TQ from 4k to 8.5k and the car felt awesome. I also had the same turbo/injector setup on a completely stock (From valve cover to oil pan un-opened with a stock intake manifold) and it made 342whp/336TQ from 2008 to 2010 reliably. Only tore it apart for the engine build. Engine had about 200k miles on it. Made gobs of low end TQ, but fell on it's face at 6,500 RPM. So that'll give you an idea on intake manifold/cam difference.

I'm rambling on and I need to get ready for work, so if you have any questions, just ask.

PoorMans180SX
10-26-2020, 09:02 AM
LOL, I missed the fact that Tomei offers the guides in various sizes as well, I thought it was just the shims. Silly me. Nissan only offers 3mm from what I've seen.

2_Liter_Turbo
10-26-2020, 10:10 AM
Lol, no worries! I thought Nissan did also, but I could be mistaken there. I typically just buy the Tomei stuff. There's also a company out of Australia that makes them as well, and will even do custom sizes (which I've leveraged before).

LtSlayer
10-26-2020, 02:07 PM
that was the part i was referencing, the modifying of the tips suggested by tomei. what does that entail, I know you have to machine one side to get it to seat properly but i'm not sure how to modify the tips. I read that with solid lifters and higher lift the tip will dig into the shim/guide. Do i just try to round out the rocker arm tip to sacrifice a little lift but make it run smoother and lighter on the shim/guide? I believe there's Japanese instructions that someone translated but the file didn't work for me. thank you though

LtSlayer
10-26-2020, 02:11 PM
how did you tune the relatively stock motor? stock ecu or something else, did you not have to convert you MAF to something else in order to tune efficiently? And why do many people get rid of their O2 or swap it to a different type for tuning. Doesn't that help provide important data for the tuner? I plan at getting my sr tuned at a local shop, Animal auto, that specializes in SRs. I just want to give them as much info as I can to get the best tune. Is the stock rail and 740 injectors fine then? i was thinking of going iradium top feed rail and ID1065 injectors just to reduce load on the injectors and get a more efficient mixture of fuel/air.

LtSlayer
10-26-2020, 02:20 PM
The forged internal package offers 86.5 and 87mm options. Stock bore is 86, is the 86.5 fine or does it require a bore and hone? I was already going to get the block honed/hot tanked/resurfaced as well as the head. Another small question, I replaced a rocker arm and everything worked out but oil has been leaking very slowly into the spark plug wells. I used an OEM gasket, no RTV, and torqued to spec according to the FSM. Any ideas? The surface looks a little scored but i believe it was like that when i pulled the cover and it didnt have a previous leak. Can i sand this to smooth it or should i use a bit of rtv knowing it isnt recommended but i dont want to have to resurface this as well.

LtSlayer
10-26-2020, 08:20 PM
did you run the lowest strength super tech or dual spring on your first build? the supertech retainers/dual springs are around 500. tomei retainers alone are 400. I wouldn't mind spending more for future proofing it.

e30gangsta
10-26-2020, 11:14 PM
Get s4hl's and welcome to the big boy cam club.

2_Liter_Turbo
10-27-2020, 07:41 AM
that was the part i was referencing, the modifying of the tips suggested by tomei. what does that entail, I know you have to machine one side to get it to seat properly but i'm not sure how to modify the tips. I read that with solid lifters and higher lift the tip will dig into the shim/guide. Do i just try to round out the rocker arm tip to sacrifice a little lift but make it run smoother and lighter on the shim/guide? I believe there's Japanese instructions that someone translated but the file didn't work for me. thank you though

I attached the manual (in english), just follow the direction in there and you'll be good. (Edit, says that it's attached, but not showing up. You can PM me your e-mail and I can send it).

how did you tune the relatively stock motor? stock ecu or something else, did you not have to convert you MAF to something else in order to tune efficiently? And why do many people get rid of their O2 or swap it to a different type for tuning. Doesn't that help provide important data for the tuner? I plan at getting my sr tuned at a local shop, Animal auto, that specializes in SRs. I just want to give them as much info as I can to get the best tune. Is the stock rail and 740 injectors fine then? i was thinking of going iradium top feed rail and ID1065 injectors just to reduce load on the injectors and get a more efficient mixture of fuel/air.

The engine itself was stock, but I still ran an aftermarket ECU. I started on a ROM tune for the stock engine with large turbo, then I used to run an old AEM EMS 1 when I had the modified engine. With the ROM tune I was using a Z32 MAF with stock o2 sensor (had a wideband gauge). When I went to the EMS, I had MAP and integrated wideband. Both of those setups was the stock fuel rail with 740CC nismo/tomei sidefeed injectors and an aftermarket FPR. Honestly, for the setup you're running, you can save some money and do the same.

The forged internal package offers 86.5 and 87mm options. Stock bore is 86, is the 86.5 fine or does it require a bore and hone? I was already going to get the block honed/hot tanked/resurfaced as well as the head. Another small question, I replaced a rocker arm and everything worked out but oil has been leaking very slowly into the spark plug wells. I used an OEM gasket, no RTV, and torqued to spec according to the FSM. Any ideas? The surface looks a little scored but i believe it was like that when i pulled the cover and it didnt have a previous leak. Can i sand this to smooth it or should i use a bit of rtv knowing it isnt recommended but i dont want to have to resurface this as well.

You can buy 86mm aftermarket pistons. If you go 86.5, you'll need machine work. If you do any bore work at the machine shop, I recommend using a TQ plate (shameless plug: I do rent one out), as the SR can distort (out of round) quite a bit under clamping load of even factory head bolts. Also, if you want to run an MLS head gasket, make sure you have the deck surface cut to an extremely high surface finish. Factory surface finish will give you issues with sealing longevity.

For the valve cover gaskets, I'd remove it to see if you any kinks or tears in the gasket (sounds like it got pinched). You can use a dab of RTV on it if it was not pinched. It's not going to hurt anything.

did you run the lowest strength super tech or dual spring on your first build? the supertech retainers/dual springs are around 500. tomei retainers alone are 400. I wouldn't mind spending more for future proofing it.

I ran the lowest rate dual spring & retainer kit they offered at the time. The lowest they have now is 90lb, but I could have sworn they had a set in the low/mid 80s at one point, but I could be thinking of something else. I bought those springs in 2009 or so, lol.

e30gangsta
10-27-2020, 12:14 PM
My question is why do you want to upgrade to solid lifters? 260 duration cams arent really all that amazing. Keep it simple do b15 lifters, and whatever jwt cam of your choice. If you want to upgrade the springs and retainers get them from jwt as well and voila done deal with zero headache and everything drops in.

2_Liter_Turbo
10-27-2020, 01:25 PM
My question is why do you want to upgrade to solid lifters? 260 duration cams arent really all that amazing. Keep it simple do b15 lifters, and whatever jwt cam of your choice. If you want to upgrade the springs and retainers get them from jwt as well and voila done deal with zero headache and everything drops in.

Solid lifters aren't for everyone, as they cost more and require more maintenance. However, they are more robust and consistent. They won't collapse EVER, and reduce the quantity of failure points in an already failure-prone valvetrain. They just require a bit more attention to detail, so definitely not for people who aren't very good with maintenance (90% of 240 "enthusiasts").

LtSlayer
10-27-2020, 05:37 PM
Solid lifters aren't for everyone, as they cost more and require more maintenance. However, they are more robust and consistent. They won't collapse EVER, and reduce the quantity of failure points in an already failure-prone valvetrain. They just require a bit more attention to detail, so definitely not for people who aren't very good with maintenance (90% of 240 "enthusiasts").

Preciseley, I currently do and plan to continue to maintenance the motor myself. I understand the solid lifters are more expensive and require maintenance but if you work on your own car you're sure to pop it open often anyways. I want solid lifters for the reliability as I've already cracked a rocker and wouldn't want my car down for long again. I'm trying to stay within the budget of ~5k this summer to work towards these upgrades knowing full well I can't get them all at once. What would you suggest?

I would like to build the head but to do this I'd be converting to solid lifters which require the springs etc to be built as well as a tune/ wiring harness. I'd like to start with reliability then power next next summer. What do you suggest for reliability? My cooling motor/IAT is already solid with mishimoto and koyorad but I want to insure the motor mechanically a bit more without needing a tune or wiring harness. I'd appreciate any suggestions. considering an oil cooler but mainly looking to build the head rn without requiring a tune. The main reason I want to go to solid is that they're undeniably easier to shim.

to summarize, 5k upgrades that don't require tune.


My question is why do you want to upgrade to solid lifters? 260 duration cams arent really all that amazing. Keep it simple do b15 lifters, and whatever jwt cam of your choice. If you want to upgrade the springs and retainers get them from jwt as well and voila done deal with zero headache and everything drops in.

I want these cams because they're the lowest duration for solid cams i found on enjuku. I understand theyre not the best for power/top end but this is a daily that I want to have some power in. Solid so i can maintenance the lash without special tools and reliability. I just want a clean bullet proof sr that'll last me untill i may one day regretably pass it on to my currently nonexistent child:2f2f:

2_Liter_Turbo
10-27-2020, 11:57 PM
260 Duration Tomei Procams gave me a nice flat power curve to over 8,000RPM starting around 4,000RPM. 260 cams are perfect for 400 +/-50 whp SRs.

If you really want to build a bullet proof cylinder head, WPC the entire valve train (look up "WPC MotoIQ" in google if you don't know what it is). Solid lifters, dual guides, proper valve springs matched to the cams you choose, and your cylinder head should be solid. Just make sure you put a real nice surface finish on the deck surface (both block and head) for a good seal. Stock valves are fine. Deshroud a bit behind the valve seats for the most bang for the buck port work on a standard DET head.

Focus on cooling and oiling mods for reliability. Baffled oil pan, a good PCV setup, underdrive the water pump a little (if planning on revving the piss out of the engine), new OEM thermostat (don't buy aftermarket), new water pump, and all new hoses are a good investment as well. Before any machine work, buy a new front oil pump and send the gears out to WPC along with your valve train (pistons, rings, and bearings to WPC as well if you can swing it).