Oil pools on all piston tops

[Jrguzman]

So I just finished rebuilding my ka24det, due to detonation damage in all cylinders. I start up the engine for the first time and it's running very strange exhaust manifold glowing red and backfires ect. Checked timing on distributor and it was a tooth off. After it was running great! Except now I'm having a problem with oil smoke (blue) after engine is warm. I have one of those bore scopes cameras so I decided to check out the piston tops. I found that all of them have small pools of what appears to be oil settling on the exhaust side. The spark plugs look good from what I can tell. I changed the valve seals and some of them were bad / floating on the valve stem. So I figured great this will be an easy fix. Nope still getting smoke. All the work done on the rebuild.

-head decked
-valve job, seats, guides
-valve lash ( cut tip of valve to correct spec)
-tomie 1.2mm head gasket
-arp studs
-upgraded to oil relocation and cooler
-retune on ecu
-blow through maf
-isr t25 / t28 turbo ( sitting for about a year new bnib)

It's seems to blow blue smoke if I give it quick heavy throttle and if I let the engine idle for awhile it will blow out a decent size cloud.

The bottom end was also built about a year ago
Cp pistons eagle rods clevite bearings

Also the compression test results are very high 205 cold in all cylinders and 215 warm. Before the rebuild it was 145/ 155 avg.

But due to the oil in the cylinders I feel that it's giving inaccurate readings.

Next step is leak down.
Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated
Thanks Again

https://preview.ibb.co/dTYOFS/20180322195039.jpg (https://ibb.co/cSqg27)
https://preview.ibb.co/b93127/20180318_200522.jpg (https://ibb.co/gQPVvS)
https://preview.ibb.co/cVvs9n/20180322184346.jpg (https://ibb.co/n9c5Un)
https://preview.ibb.co/jDgX9n/20180318195756.jpg (https://ibb.co/g0nTh7)
https://preview.ibb.co/meBM27/20180317160354.jpg (https://ibb.co/j7boh7)
https://preview.ibb.co/fHRoh7/20180317160624.jpg (https://ibb.co/ekqEN7)
https://preview.ibb.co/krag27/20180317160812.jpg (https://ibb.co/hXgM27)
https://image.ibb.co/mA8qvS/20180316195903.jpg (https://ibb.co/hon5Un)

[ANDY black s13]

some possibles,
if you are using the same intercooler from the previous det death did you clean it out
before reusing it,
or if the hot pipe is oily inside suspect compressor side leaking oil into the housing/hotpipe
I see it was bnib turbo but can happen

[Kingtal0n]

Oil raises compression ratio and causes detonation. You can see flakes/chunks of piston missing because its been running like shit for quite a while. Check intake manifold for oil; if there isn't any in there, it has to be coming through the head somehow.

[Jrguzman]

some possibles,
if you are using the same intercooler from the previous det death did you clean it out
before reusing it,
or if the hot pipe is oily inside suspect compressor side leaking oil into the housing/hotpipe
I see it was bnib turbo but can happen


Yeah that turbo has been on a shelf for the past year, I haven't checked the piping for oil yet but definitely will

[Jrguzman]

Oil raises compression ratio and causes detonation. You can see flakes/chunks of piston missing because its been running like shit for quite a while. Check intake manifold for oil; if there isn't any in there, it has to be coming through the head somehow.

The 205 compression seemed too high. I was worried about running boost on top of that but the pistons are good I checked them before I put the head back on. No signs of pitting or pieces missing. The cylinder head took all the detonation damage from what I could tell

[tuzzio]

i had a similar issue, turned out that all my exhaust valve guides were shot.

[anthony_240]

Interested in this, I have the same problem on my stock ka, I get the same puff of smoke when I’m at idle for a while and when I give it throttle it comes shooting out. Thought it was just a clogged cat- but let us know any updates as you do further inspection


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[Jrguzman]

i had a similar issue, turned out that all my exhaust valve guides were shot.

I hope that's not the case, the machine shop I took the head to said they replaced the guides along with the other work that was done. But I could see how it could be a possibility.

[Jrguzman]

Interested in this, I have the same problem on my stock ka, I get the same puff of smoke when I’m at idle for a while and when I give it throttle it comes shooting out. Thought it was just a clogged cat- but let us know any updates as you do further inspection


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Will do, i had also thought it could be a crankcase pressure issue with the added compression and oil from the oil cooler. So I removed the dipstick and put a shop vac directly to the tube to the crankcase. All that accomplished was a shop vac with about a quart of oil in it lol. I have the pcv both venting to atmosphere now.

[Jrguzman]

Here are the leak down results from today. All cylinders under 10% leakdown.

https://preview.ibb.co/mgXsAS/20180326_170154.jpg (https://ibb.co/d6H3H7)
https://preview.ibb.co/gZrkVS/20180326_165136.jpg (https://ibb.co/dMxg4n)
https://preview.ibb.co/enBkVS/20180326_164639.jpg (https://ibb.co/fLmKqS)
https://preview.ibb.co/cPrkVS/20180326_165826.jpg (https://ibb.co/ifCEPn)

[Jrguzman]

So after talking with the machine shop about the oil burning issue I decided to pull the head and have them take a look at it. Here are some pictures from today. The exhaust side is coated with oil. And this is after I changed the valve seals. The intake side seems good as far as I can tell.
https://preview.ibb.co/fxcFjn/20180328_212144.jpg (https://ibb.co/dXkeAS)
https://preview.ibb.co/hH3AH7/20180328_212134.jpg (https://ibb.co/deGVH7)
https://preview.ibb.co/m9cgPn/20180328_212123.jpg (https://ibb.co/cGCFjn)
https://preview.ibb.co/gYDXVS/20180328_212107.jpg (https://ibb.co/dLKT4n)
https://preview.ibb.co/c1rxx7/20180328_204337.jpg (https://ibb.co/hHCRqS)
https://preview.ibb.co/b0yAH7/20180328_204324.jpg (https://ibb.co/nBGxx7)
https://preview.ibb.co/hg184n/20180328_204311.jpg (https://ibb.co/jsBVH7)
https://preview.ibb.co/m48AH7/20180328_204302.jpg (https://ibb.co/cSAeAS)
https://preview.ibb.co/diNsVS/20180328_204258.jpg (https://ibb.co/eGxRqS)
https://preview.ibb.co/byRajn/20180328_172341.jpg (https://ibb.co/gVDzAS)
https://preview.ibb.co/b8X4c7/20180328_172329.jpg (https://ibb.co/kdocx7)
https://preview.ibb.co/hUw84n/20180328_172320.jpg (https://ibb.co/jm6mqS)
https://preview.ibb.co/dOZvjn/20180328_172307.jpg (https://ibb.co/mEFeAS)

[tuzzio]

I'm still betting on exhaust valve guides. I had the same exact issue and did the same exact thing.

[Jrguzman]

I'm still betting on exhaust valve guides. I had the same exact issue and did the same exact thing.

I have a feeling your right. when your guides went bad could you see where they were leaking oil from?

[TheRealSy90]

Guides and Stem Seals are two different things people.

[KAT-PWR]

Guides and Stem Seals are two different things people.

One more time for the people in the back.

What is that picture of? That is a compression tester, not a leak down tester... 90 PSI is not good. Is that after you cranked a few times then did you just let it sit? Because that is not how a leak down test is done. What compression pistons do you have? Look like 9:1, you shouldn't be seeing 210 on a compression test cold.

[Jrguzman]

One more time for the people in the back.

What is that picture of? That is a compression tester, not a leak down tester... 90 PSI is not good. Is that after you cranked a few times then did you just let it sit? Because that is not how a leak down test is done. What compression pistons do you have? Look like 9:1, you shouldn't be seeing 210 on a compression test cold.

Yeah I was wondering why the compression jumped up after the rebuild, I figured it had to do with all the oil in the cylinders. The head has been decked twice and the block once. Pistons are cp 9:0:1 was getting about 150, 145 before the recent rebuild due to blown headgasket/ detonation in all cylinders

It's a custom leak down I made from an old compression tester. The harbor freight one wasn't cutting it. just subtract from 100 psi. So 90 would be 10% leak down

[KAT-PWR]

Are you filling it with 100 psi then waiting to see how much leaks?

[Jrguzman]

Are you filling it with 100 psi then waiting to see how much leaks?

I set the cylinder to Tdc on compression stroke, sett the tester to 100 psi. Then connect the tester to the cylinder.

[TheRealSy90]

But don’t you lose pressure out of the tester since it then has to pressurize the cylinder


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[Jrguzman]

Not my picture but this is a basic overview of how it's made.

https://image.ibb.co/cGv1en/d0805ee37d6741af0f881ed09f87c0be_gauges_tool.jpg (https://ibb.co/ewDXkS)
https image (https://imgbb.com/)

[S14DB]

It's pouring out your exhaust stem seals.

[Jrguzman]

It's pouring out your exhaust stem seals.

Yeah I'm trying to figure out how that can be. I replaced all of them. The only thing I can think of and I might be way off here. The machine shop cut the top of the valve stem to set the valve lash and I know that the ka24de uses shims for this I believe. Maybe the valve is being pushed under the stem seal and it is causing the leak. But that's just a wild guess.

[S14DB]

I would be more inclined to think that the seals are wrong, bad or were installed incorrectly. What brand are they?

[Jrguzman]

I would be more inclined to think that the seals are wrong, bad or were installed incorrectly. What brand are they?

Not exactly sure what brand the machine shop used but they were all blue maybe supertech?
But I replaced them with basic felpro seals from auto zone. They were the same for exhaust and intake. I also checked before I took the head to the machine shop again to see if the seals were still seated and they appeared to be ok.
Maybe to much play between valve and valve guides? I'm stumped, just hoping I can get it figured out before I reassemble everything lol

[Jrguzman]

Well the problem is still present after the second time and now even seems to be worse then before.

At this point I don't know what is going on with it. Here are some pictures. The pooles of oil seem to be on Both sides now. The spray pattern appears to be coming from the top.
https://preview.ibb.co/f5sern/20180414170006.jpg (https://ibb.co/dPY8j7)
https://preview.ibb.co/bxAXBn/20180414165926.jpg (https://ibb.co/k51uP7)
https://preview.ibb.co/fbc147/20180414165843.jpg (https://ibb.co/dvJVxS)
https://preview.ibb.co/jNxZP7/20180410_205824.jpg (https://ibb.co/bOZsBn)
https://preview.ibb.co/nzbiHS/20180410_205503.jpg (https://ibb.co/mgR5Wn)
https://preview.ibb.co/gXH147/20180410_204939.jpg (https://ibb.co/dKOxcS)
https://preview.ibb.co/fuN147/20180410_204207.jpg (https://ibb.co/eGnCBn)
https://preview.ibb.co/dKmuP7/20180410_204151.jpg (https://ibb.co/mmJkWn)
https://preview.ibb.co/emXZP7/20180410_182711.jpg (https://ibb.co/dW7ern)
https://preview.ibb.co/ebp3HS/20180410_182641.jpg (https://ibb.co/b1Voj7)
https://preview.ibb.co/caWTj7/20180410_170336.jpg (https://ibb.co/kx43HS)
https://preview.ibb.co/j1p3HS/20180410_170321.jpg (https://ibb.co/h55ccS)

[ANDY black s13]

If the head is all good,I'm struggling to think of why it's still getting oil in each cylinder
I will need to ponder this longer
the turbo is the only suspect that could be feeding oil into the motor/all four pots
or the intercooler or pipe work from the previous blow up?

[Jrguzman]

If the head is all good,I'm struggling to think of why it's still getting oil in each cylinder
I will need to ponder this longer
the turbo is the only suspect that could be feeding oil into the motor/all four pots
or the intercooler or pipe work from the previous blow up?

Yeah this is giving me a hard time as well, I've checked the piping and inter cooler every thing is dry. I'm thinking of getting a new head and maybe even a set of new rings.

[ANDY black s13]

so we have the head is good and turbo is good,
now we need what is allowing oil into each pot ?,
if it was just one pot I would say suspect cracked head or an oil control ring
but not all four failing the same way, and looks like equal amounts of oil in each pot
I don't want to say swap the head or re-ring the pistons as not convinced that is the fix
but we are running out of options,I'm leaning towards rings more than head
might have to pull one piston out and look for tell tale signs
it's the oil in each pot that's throwing me off

[Jrguzman]

so we have the head is good and turbo is good,
now we need what is allowing oil into each pot ?,
if it was just one pot I would say suspect cracked head or an oil control ring
but not all four failing the same way, and looks like equal amounts of oil in each pot
I don't want to say swap the head or re-ring the pistons as not convinced that is the fix
but we are running out of options,I'm leaning towards rings more than head
might have to pull one piston out and look for tell tale signs
it's the oil in each pot that's throwing me off

Right I think it has to be something that the machine shop did because this wasn't happening before the valve job.
But assuming the head is in order I have heard that some cases after a valve job the increase in vacuum can pull oil past the rings. But I don't feel like that is the case because of the pattern of oil that is on the pistons and leak down results that I got.

[tuzzio]

Unless I misread, I'm going to re-iterate the same issue I had was valve guides.

[Jrguzman]

Unless I misread, I'm going to re-iterate the same issue I had was valve guides.

Do you know how exactly they failed? Too much stem to guide clearance? I'm trying to figure out how they could fail after the machine work

[tuzzio]

Do you know how exactly they failed? Too much stem to guide clearance? I'm trying to figure out how they could fail after the machine work

Yes, the machine shop replaced all of them.

[Jrguzman]

Quick update:

Took the head to a different machine shop to get the head checked, mainly the guides.

Pulled the oil pan off and took the pistons out to check the rings.

I found only the top ring on the number 1 piston was broken and the are some light scuffs on the cylinders. A little detonation damage at the top of each piston on the Intake side ( just like the head). So I had the shop check the pistons out as well.

The second machine shop ended up not wanting to mess with the head and said the pistons were okay. So off to machine shop number three.. I asked them if they would check the valve guides.

Also I ordered new rings for all the pistons just because I'm in this far. The second machine shop thought I might have lost tension in the rings.

https://preview.ibb.co/ihNLW7/20180503_211926.jpg (https://ibb.co/kPPZr7)
https://preview.ibb.co/b2uZr7/20180503_211912.jpg (https://ibb.co/n5UOjS)
https://preview.ibb.co/edYijS/20180503_211903.jpg (https://ibb.co/fwhLW7)
https://preview.ibb.co/etHyJn/20180503_211851.jpg (https://ibb.co/edr3jS)
https://preview.ibb.co/hZ2LW7/20180425_204249.jpg (https://ibb.co/cJgsdn)
https://preview.ibb.co/mrZCdn/20180425_203417.jpg (https://ibb.co/fSVkyn)
https://preview.ibb.co/nRhLW7/20180425_203346.jpg (https://ibb.co/bzzdJn)
https://preview.ibb.co/iT8ijS/20180425_203329.jpg (https://ibb.co/hBy5yn)
https://preview.ibb.co/i3fw4S/20180422_224304.jpg (https://ibb.co/eKu0W7)
https://preview.ibb.co/bBYG4S/20180422_224255.jpg (https://ibb.co/c5Z0W7)
https://preview.ibb.co/bt7nB7/20180422_185811.jpg (https://ibb.co/f02b4S)

[S14DB]

The 3rd ring is your oil control ring. You engine isn't even broken in.

[Jrguzman]

I am going to re ring it while I have it apart
What would you recommend for ring gaps?
It is .015 right now for the top ring

[tuzzio]

My wisecos came with a formula to calculate the gaps.

Mine are .018" and .020

[Jrguzman]

So I'm going to gap the rings a bit more than last time. The third machine shop said the guides and the rest of the head was In order. So I'm thinking it must be the rings. Going the ball hone with a 240 grit on all the cylinders to help the rings seat. Will update when I get it back together

[Weksan]

Interested in this as well. I'm having the same issue but with a sr20det. Puffing out blue smoke, oil in exhaust ports, 165 compression across the board. I had the machine shop put new exhaust guides and seals in. I'm also using a tomei headgasket. Keep this updated please.