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View Full Version : Boost sag? Here's your solution.


imnatelol
12-07-2012, 02:24 PM
This topic has been coming up every now and then. Specifically, a lot of folks seem to be having boost curves that look like this, and perceive it as justification for the fact that their manual boost controller just isn't cutting it, and they need to go out and spend money on a fancy electronic boost controller.

http://www.miataturbo.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=53987&stc=1&d=1346793381

So, does that look familiar? If so, save your money. Fixing this problem is going to cost you about $3.

First, let's take a look at why this is happening. Here's a simplified diagram of your turbo system, where we have the turbocharger itself, then the intercooler, and then the throttle body.

http://www.miataturbo.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=53988&stc=1&d=1346793381

Point "A" in this system is where a lot of folks have their boost controller connected. It's that nipple that came from the factory on the side of your compressor housing, probably with a hose already attached between it and the wastegate actuator.

Well, that's just stupid.

What's happening here is that your boost controller is in fact maintaining a constant level of boost, however it's doing it in the wrong place. Specifically, it's maintaining a constant level of boost at the compressor, but that's not what your engine is actually seeing.

Confused?

http://www.miataturbo.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=53989&stc=1&d=1346793381

Yes, behold the simple drinking straw. Solver of great mysteries.

Here's a quick experiment. Stick a drinking straw into your pie-hole, and blow through it. Not too hard, very gently in fact. Very, very gently. This ain't Hustler's mom we're dealing with.

Feel the resistance that the straw is offering? No? Of course not. At the rate at which you are blowing into it, the straw is not much of a restriction at all.

Now, blow harder. And now you start to feel the straw fighting you.

A funny thing happens when we try to flow a gas through a restrictive orifice. The more we try to flow through the restriction, the more restrictive it becomes. In practical terms, at low rates of flow, we get very little pressure loss across the restriction. As flow increases, so does the pressure loss. And it's not linear, either. The magnitude of pressure drop increases almost exponentially with flow rate.

Now, it may not look like one, but your intercooler is a drinking straw. A large, heavy, aluminum, multi-faceted drinking straw. Or, at least, it exhibits a lot of the same characteristics as one. So, back to the diagram:

http://www.miataturbo.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=53988&stc=1&d=1346793381

Say that we have our boost controller set such that we see a peak of 12 PSI in the intake manifold. At 4,000 RPM, we reach that point. We are, incidentally, flowing about 130 CFM through the intercooler (our engine has a 100% VE at all speeds) and we're loosing about 1 PSI across the intercooler. So while the pressure at point B is 12 PSI, the pressure at point A (which is what the boost controller is seeing) is actually 13 PSI.

Now, we increase the speed to 7,000 RPM. At this point, we're moving about 220 CFM, and yet, what's this? The pressure drop across the intercooler has increased to 3 PSI! We didn't even double the flow, and yet we tripled the drop. (Well, I'm ignoring the fact that these are relative, rather than absolute pressure values, but you get the idea.) So now, even though the MBC is faithfully holding 13 PSI at the compressor, we're only seeing 10 PSI at the manifold.


The solution here should be pretty obvious by now. Move the boost controller from point A to point B.

By doing this, we are now telling the boost controller, in essence, "Hey, I want you to do whatever it takes to maintain a constant pressure at point B in the system, and to hell with what's going on over at the compressor." And it will comply. (Boost controllers are pretty simple-minded like that. They don't question orders.) Specifically, it now does not matter what the drop across the intercooler is, at least insofar as your actual manifold pressure is concerned. As drop across the IC increases, the boost controller will cause the compressor pressure to increase accordingly. So by the time you get to 7,000 RPM and are experiencing 3 PSI of drop across the IC, the pressure at point A will be up to 15 PSI, and you'll still be getting your 12 PSI at the manifold.

http://www.miataturbo.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=53990&stc=1&d=1346793381


And here's everything you need to make it happen:

http://www.miataturbo.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=53991&stc=1&d=1346793381

Yup. One 1/8" NPT hose-barb fitting. About $3 at your local ACE Hardware store. Drill ye' olde hole into the pipe which leads up into your throttle body, install this fitting into it, and plumb a hose from there to your MBC. Using all-silicone tube? (fag.) Well, just drill a hole in the colid-side end tank of the IC itself. Anywhere is fine so long as it's after the IC core, and before the throttle body.

You'll probably have to turn the MBC down just a tad in order to achieve the same peak boost you had before, as it's no longer having to factor in even the smallest IC drop.

ultimateirving
12-07-2012, 03:35 PM
Dude i dont know why i never thought of this before, but this kind of thinking is genius. You probably just solved my months long problem of overboosting/spiking and dropping off hard.
I will be fixing this as soon as i get off work to test it.

Driftwurks
12-07-2012, 03:39 PM
I love the diagrams and diction. :l101:

PrimeDirective
12-07-2012, 04:02 PM
Nevermind.

ultimateirving
12-07-2012, 04:11 PM
Nevermind.

haha i was about to quote your other post too.. good thing ur fast at editing..
Sometimes it takes a second to sink in.

imnatelol
12-07-2012, 04:15 PM
Glad to help guys.

hOngsterr
12-07-2012, 04:44 PM
so to sum it up, just put the boost controller on the cold side of the (IC) before TB and after the core?

Croustibat
12-07-2012, 05:03 PM
Yeah, i wonder why those stupid engineers did put their takeoff right after the turbo. Must be because they are stupid.

Oh wait ! Closed loop system 101 : "make your loop as short as you can". Otherwise your actuator is going to go AWOL and your boost will make nice waves.

That might be the reason. yup.

And remember manufacturer talk about the pressure ratio that is just after the turbo. Not after the intercooler. Which means if you are nearly out of the map at 2.2bar (like on a T28 with a CA18DET) and you set turbo pressure at 1.2bar after the intercooler, you are going to be running a 2.4bar pressure ratio. Which is innefficient, will overspin your turbo, ultimately killing it.



Leave your boost takeoff right at the end of your turbo, it is there for a reason ... And stop thinking engineers are morons that just do stuff to annoy you ...

imnatelol
12-07-2012, 05:20 PM
Yeah, i wonder why those stupid engineers did put their takeoff right after the turbo. Must be because they are stupid.

Oh wait ! Closed loop system 101 : "make your loop as short as you can". Otherwise your actuator is going to go AWOL and your boost will make nice waves.

That might be the reason. yup.

And remember manufacturer talk about the pressure ratio that is just after the turbo. Not after the intercooler. Which means if you are nearly out of the map at 2.2bar (like on a T28 with a CA18DET) and you set turbo pressure at 1.2bar after the intercooler, you are going to be running a 2.4bar pressure ratio. Which is innefficient, will overspin your turbo, ultimately killing it.



Leave your boost takeoff right at the end of your turbo, it is there for a reason ... And stop thinking engineers are morons that just do stuff to annoy you ...

This is a proven theory and works. I'm sorry if you believe otherwise.

BossHogg
12-07-2012, 07:24 PM
It may work. But it seems to get the desired boost level at point B that you may possibly over boost your turbo at point A to make up for the pressure loss to achieve the desired number at point B. At least that is what it seems like in my head. Isn't that the whole point of monitoring it at the turbo (point A) to see what your actual turbo is doing? I guess that would be entirely situational though also. If your riding the line of your turbo's efficiency range. I'm just throwing out random thoughts.

It also seems that the real culprit is the intercooler. If you're getting that much pressure loss....why not upgrade to something bigger to maybe help even point A and B out? Going back to the straw trick, blow through a coffee straw, then upgrade to a regular straw, then upgrade to one of those jumbo smoothie straws. It obviously get's easier/less restrictive the bigger you go. I'm no scientist, just throwing around my thoughts. It seems you have found a way to find out if your intercooler is becoming insufficient for your current setup.

iamtheyi
12-07-2012, 07:29 PM
BS BS BS BS

Mr. Croustibat you are one of the biggest new haters I've seen. You seem to be on these engineers' nutsacks.

The engineers don't build motors for a purely performance outlook. They look at it to save gas, longevity of the motor, etc.. For enthusiasts such as ourselves, we like our power even with the idea of less longevity of our motors. The end goal is not the same.

imnatelol
12-07-2012, 08:11 PM
It may work. But it seems to get the desired boost level at point B that you may possibly over boost your turbo at point A to make up for the pressure loss to achieve the desired number at point B. At least that is what it seems like in my head. Isn't that the whole point of monitoring it at the turbo (point A) to see what your actual turbo is doing? I guess that would be entirely situational though also. If your riding the line of your turbo's efficiency range. I'm just throwing out random thoughts.

It also seems that the real culprit is the intercooler. If you're getting that much pressure loss....why not upgrade to something bigger to maybe help even point A and B out? Going back to the straw trick, blow through a coffee straw, then upgrade to a regular straw, then upgrade to one of those jumbo smoothie straws. It obviously get's easier/less restrictive the bigger you go. I'm no scientist, just throwing around my thoughts. It seems you have found a way to find out if your intercooler is becoming insufficient for your current setup.

This modification is intended to solve drop off at higher rpm at very minimal costs, of course there are always alternatives. As mentioned, you would need to lower the setting on your boost controller to accommodate for the boost signal found near the TB.

s14boy
12-07-2012, 08:45 PM
Yeah, i wonder why those stupid engineers did put their takeoff right after the turbo. Must be because they are stupid.

Oh wait ! Closed loop system 101 : "make your loop as short as you can". Otherwise your actuator is going to go AWOL and your boost will make nice waves.

That might be the reason. yup.

And remember manufacturer talk about the pressure ratio that is just after the turbo. Not after the intercooler. Which means if you are nearly out of the map at 2.2bar (like on a T28 with a CA18DET) and you set turbo pressure at 1.2bar after the intercooler, you are going to be running a 2.4bar pressure ratio. Which is innefficient, will overspin your turbo, ultimately killing it.


Leave your boost takeoff right at the end of your turbo, it is there for a reason ... And stop thinking engineers are morons that just do stuff to annoy you ...

he brings up one good point just make sure you stay in your turbos psi range at the compressor. what i did was used a boost gauge on the compressor nipple when i set my ebc for its high setting to make sure i wasnt over my turbos efficency range. but yes op is right with his first write up and to the op very good depiction of this problem.
ps my ebc is post ic and pre tb like op :)
-Mike

jamg
12-07-2012, 09:04 PM
i'm not fully understanding the solution..

imnatelol
12-07-2012, 10:24 PM
he brings up one good point just make sure you stay in your turbos psi range at the compressor. what i did was used a boost gauge on the compressor nipple when i set my ebc for its high setting to make sure i wasnt over my turbos efficency range. but yes op is right with his first write up and to the op very good depiction of this problem.
ps my ebc is post ic and pre tb like op :)
-Mike

Yes, of course turbo efficiency is an important consideration. I was under the assumption that people had the common knowledge to not over work the turbo.

s14boy
12-07-2012, 10:27 PM
Yes, of course turbo efficiency is an important consideration. I was under the assumption that people had the common knowledge to not over work the turbo.

very true but you know zilvia likes it spelled out to them

cotbu
12-08-2012, 12:04 PM
Somebody has a huge problem understanding compressor maps.
OP there's nothing wrong with what you suggest, although it is a work around.

I'll just say we get our boost readings from the manifold not the hotpipe.
The air from the manifold to the compressors location is not that far. I use 3mm hose for that type of setup. There's no difference either way when using 4-6mm hose.

Here's what you do, measure your line from manifold to wastegate. take the line and attach it to a boost gauge. go boost! if that gauge reads lower or never reaches your boost setting. try something else.

Kingtal0n
12-08-2012, 01:12 PM
Mr. Croustibat you are one of the biggest new haters I've seen. You seem to be on these engineers' nutsacks.

The engineers don't build motors for a purely performance outlook. They look at it to save gas, longevity of the motor, etc.. For enthusiasts such as ourselves, we like our power even with the idea of less longevity of our motors. The end goal is not the same.

Not every enthusiast wants to throw longevity out the window

jr_ss
12-08-2012, 02:28 PM
I agree with this to an extent. However, factory turbos cannot keep up with the volume of air that the motor flows and that's why you see boost taper off in the higher rpms. SR20dets are not limited to this. STI's are guilty of it too and it's because the turbo is out side it's efficieny range at X rpm that you see boost fall off.

1ZlowZ
12-08-2012, 02:42 PM
I don't understand how this works.
Pascals law states that in a closed system pressure from one end to the next will be the same. Am I missing something.

jr_ss
12-08-2012, 02:50 PM
I don't understand how this works.
Pascals law states that in a closed system pressure from one end to the next will be the same. Am I missing something.

An intercooler creates a pressure drop across the system.

Croustibat
12-10-2012, 03:21 AM
Mr. Croustibat you are one of the biggest new haters I've seen. You seem to be on these engineers' nutsacks.

The engineers don't build motors for a purely performance outlook. They look at it to save gas, longevity of the motor, etc.. For enthusiasts such as ourselves, we like our power even with the idea of less longevity of our motors. The end goal is not the same.

Maybe because i am an engineer that had courses in closed loop regulations. Maybe because i worked on gas turbine regulation. Anyway this must be the first thing you learn in these courses. And that has nothing do to with performance or anything, that goes with ANY regulation; make your regulation loop the shortest possible, otherwise you will add complexity in your regulation model, complexity that WILL get out of hand at one point.

The boost goes down because the turbo is out of puff. Get a bigger turbo, you will get more power AND more reliability. And if boost really falls off because of your intercooler, stop nitpicking and get an intercooler, even an ebay jobby does not drop that much pressure.

Since i found that pic, i like to post it a lot. This is for a CA18DET and its OEM turbo.
http://i30.tinypic.com/1565veb.jpg

best efficiency near 8psi, OEM is set at 0.7bar (is that 10 psi ? ) and people are used to run it at 1bar (15psi) or more for performance. Yet it makes less power at 15psi than with a regular T28 at 10psi . But it does not prevent some people to just run 1.5bar on them... guess what happens then ? No efficiency, not enough flow, overspin, overheat, boom.

This is an example over the CA, but the idea also goes for an SR20.

Yes, of course turbo efficiency is an important consideration. I was under the assumption that people had the common knowledge to not over work the turbo.

Dont overestimate people posting here. You would be much suprised...

I don't understand how this works.
Pascals law states that in a closed system pressure from one end to the next will be the same. Am I missing something.

Pascal law works in a system that has reached balance, aka static system. A turbo in a car is a dynamic system.

If you had something to power the turbo and if you were blocking the air at the throttle body, you will have the same pressure once the system has reached balance, and could apply pascal law.

i'm not fully understanding the solution..

Point is, if you are already at the maxium boost you want to run, or if your car has been mapped to the boost you are running, dont do it.

cotbu
12-10-2012, 12:52 PM
Those calculations are wrong, there's no pressure loss calculations. Just saying, if you use those calculations for a turbo that does fit the application, you'll still be off.

Boostd2
12-13-2012, 01:49 PM
Interesting theory. However I think the majority of the people who experience this 'boost sag' phenomenon as you call it, are people who are running their turbo out of their peak efficiency range.

cotbu
12-13-2012, 02:11 PM
That could be true although you statement covers a wide range, but the efficiency statement made from you and that was mentioned earlier are just speculations. It's been proven that the internal waste gates can't regulate boost properly, by it's design boost should, taper off and it does.
The worst part about "boost sag" is people quote their boost, as being whatever the lowest pressure it falls to!

OBEEWON
12-13-2012, 02:51 PM
Saggy boobs
http://www.toplessrobot.com/fat_bastard.jpg

jjewell2101
12-17-2012, 11:59 AM
Nice thread. Good info