your thoughts on KA24DER

[grexs13]

I'm thinking about making the purchase. I used to have an SR20det with t28 stock tune. I'm wondering if it's worth all the expense just to get 190-250 hp? (maybe) Does anyone with SC setup prefer SC vs. turbo KA? I know the basic theories of the power delivery on each systems. I'm just worried about getting bored of it too soon. Thanks!

[KA-Life86]

Obviously the old addage goes, takes power to make power with a supercharger. Since a stock KA doesnt actually make power I dont see the usefulness of supercharging one. Go turbo, more power, efficiency, sounds better...

[grexs13]

@ KA-Life86, What you say are all true except for the sound part, that's personal preference. So here in California, the peace officers(CHP) knows about the 240's, especially if they hear the BOV and see the front inner cooler. That's the reason why I went back to a KA setup and pulled the SR out. Trying to look stock as possible. I don't know if I'm trying to talk my self into or out of buying it. So confused. haha!

[Jybfan04]

It really depends on your preference and power output..

I think the KA24DER's are great for a mild build and power not to mention the flat and wide powerband it would have...

It also depends on cams, pistons, headers, exhuast, intake manifold etc...

[nield13]

Project: Do Work (http://www.son240sx.org/showthread.php?133320-Project-Do-Work/page5)

that might give you some insight

[DJ-of-E]

I think the KA24DER's are great for a mild build and power not to mention the flat and wide powerband it would have...

It also depends on cams, pistons, headers, exhuast, intake manifold etc...

I've built one way back then and honestly, it's a lot of work and extremely high maintenance for the amount of power you're getting. It's been like 6 years since building one and what has changed, but I remember going with meth injection and worrying about octane levels on pump gas just to keep it at 230HP. It's a great car with smooth power delivery, but similar could be achieved nowadays with a well-built ka24det setup.

BTW, my KA24DER blew up after 10 months of use because I forgot about refilling the injection tank.

On my 2nd 240, I'm just gonna go SR20 and call it a day. With the amount of fabrication required for SC, cops still pull you in for modifications.

[jesse_s13]

Here you go dude. Some set up's here are extremely low key.


http://zilvia.net/f/chat/382086-sleeper-ka-t-photos-post-them-up.html

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/222187_2019262647236_1413997181_32348494_8185343_n .jpg

[DJ-of-E]

^ omg, that really is a super sexy setup.

[grexs13]

AAWESOME! so the stock SR side mount runners and inner cooler works well I take it. Dayum it! I so had my heart set on the KA24DER setup but, if it's too much to maintain 230HP when you can get that just by add more boost on a t28. All this time I was thinking out of the box. haha!

Neild13 thanks for the link! it for sure an interesting read.

DJ-of-E so there's a tune for low to mid range like the SC? I'm trying to set up a street fighter/occasional track. Mainly I like to try to smoke my buddies S2K(AP2) ;p

jesse_s13 if I do go turbo, that's how I would set my engine bay. Real clean setup bro!

so on a side note: can a KA engine be reliable up to 250 HP with the stock bottom end and drive train? I'm sure everyone would recommend valves, springs, pistons, rods etc... I'm just trying to keep the cost down.

[Nikeboy355]

I think the power band on the KA24DER is excellent and there are less parts than a turbo kit...

I'm not concerned with blowing the motor or it lasting a long time... It will if the the motor is in good condition and the tune is correct...

My only concern is how long the supercharger will go before needing a rebuild... And if I could use a tuned ECU to try and pass California smog at the tail pipe(minus the visual inspection)...

[Te37]

@ KA-Life86, What you say are all true except for the sound part, that's personal preference. So here in California, the peace officers(CHP) knows about the 240's, especially if they hear the BOV and see the front inner cooler. That's the reason why I went back to a KA setup and pulled the SR out. Trying to look stock as possible. I don't know if I'm trying to talk my self into or out of buying it. So confused. haha!


Black FMIC, and recirc BOV....maybe a pinch easier than swapping back old engine.

[SuperBlackS14]

Agree with Nikeboyy, but I'd also like to hear Ryan Klatt weigh in here. I was considering going SC as well.

[grexs13]

@ Nikeboy355 Yeah, I'm sure SC has a better chance of passing the sniffer vs. turbo. The tunes gotta be pretty spot on. there's nothing you can do about visual unless some buddy/company tested and paid for a EO#. I doubt anyone would spend the coin for a engine that's no longer in production.

@ te37 I had all that done (with stock BOV, pretty much a recirc) including running fujitsubo exhaust (which I think its the best low key exhaust) The CHP are pretty educated. I still got popped

@SuperBlacks14 I emailed Ryan couple days ago to see if they have a s13 kit ready to go but still no reply back. I'm going to be running AEM so their base tune are for Nistune so I gotta start from scratch. I too want to hear from the founder of the kits.

[SuperBlackS14]

I actually asked him a while ago if JWT tunes would work, and he said that they would. I asked JWT about emissions since I have an OBD-II car, aside from the fact that many of the mounting provisions ate removed with the deletion of the lower Plenum, the OBD system stays intact for the JWT tunes, and Nistune said they were working on OBD-II ECUs but that really only applies to me lolz.

Think this is a good idea. I had to swap my S14 SR that my car came with to pass NYS Emissions, but I like the KA's powerband, so the S/C makes sense to me.

[grexs13]

SuperBlackS14 Yeah I kinda wish that I found a OBD2 Ka24de but that's hard to find in Norcal, and if you do find one, one that's not beatin the freak up! haha! Yeah I rather just let the rear o2 self learn the fuel trim with a good base tune.

[Kingtal0n]

An SR20DET Is designed to last for hundreds of thousands of miles with stock components. It can be used with an OEM side mount intercooler.

honestly, I dont see the need for debate. Why take a chance with a KA24 engine- a great engine, but one that requires modification.... when you can just slap in an OEM sr20det, not touch anything, and have a reliable, dependable, daily driver with 250+ stealth horsepower? Use the OEM exhaust.

[SuperBlackS14]

An SR cannot pass an inspection tho. I agree its tough, reliable, and makes good power, but I only have one car, and I don't need the hassle of shady inspections and trying to find parts from Japan.

[DJ-of-E]

An SR20DET Is designed to last for hundreds of thousands of miles with stock components. It can be used with an OEM side mount intercooler.

honestly, I dont see the need for debate. Why take a chance with a KA24 engine- a great engine, but one that requires modification.... when you can just slap in an OEM sr20det, not touch anything, and have a reliable, dependable, daily driver with 250+ stealth horsepower? Use the OEM exhaust.

Honestly, I concur. Fabrication or building up w/ kits are no joke. From my experiences, everyone's better off building around the SR20DET engine first to get the basics of force induction, then then go off on a KA24DE (T)(R).

Also, waiting on parts from Japan for SR? Still the same with KA24DE(R). Waiting for parts to be "made."

Back to the topic, guy had an SR20 240sx before, so maybe he already have good knowledge and just want a base judgement. I'd say go KA24DET with a bottom mount S15 turbo and call it a day.

As for your buddy's S2K, you may "barely" win on the drag strip, but you still lose on any race track (even ovals). (assuming both of equal skill).

[Nikeboy355]

California SMOG is getting stricter...
Cops are quick to give tickets now and they even setup mobile smog checks on some main roads...

I thought it would be smooth to run this kit and then if I get into trouble, I just have to swap out the intake manifold...

If I needed more power at the track, I'd add an E85 tuned ECU...

[GroundPerformance]

An SR20DET Is designed to last for hundreds of thousands of miles with stock components. It can be used with an OEM side mount intercooler.

honestly, I dont see the need for debate. Why take a chance with a KA24 engine- a great engine, but one that requires modification.... when you can just slap in an OEM sr20det, not touch anything, and have a reliable, dependable, daily driver with 250+ stealth horsepower? Use the OEM exhaust.

Move to Cali and find out...

[SuperBlackS14]

In the case of KA24DER.com kits, they are made to order. Because they KA is available in the US and Japan, parts are plentiful. Especially considering even the SC comes off a motor available here...

Don't get me wrong, SRs are nce, are definitely more powerful than an KA stock, and have a lot of headroom, but I personally wouldn't use one again. Not that I didn't enjoy the speed while I had it, keeping up with WRXs was fun, but I don't mind that I'm with the KA now, especially being that it passed inspection here.

I know a lot of people don't care about that, but its important to me, so it sways my decisions. UT that's my opinion.

[Tantwoforty]

I think if you slapped a sc on a ka it would feel amazing if you got it to run right it would feel pretty awesome.. my t25 ka feels great and the car and goes fast enough, hard enough to have alot of fun and i see the m62 preforming better than a t25 and with some good supporting mods it would probably be pretty great.. you wont make crazy hp, but its a light ass car and the power should be pretty on tap plenty of tq to break loose whenever..
anyway more power to you! do it.

[grexs13]

Yup! living in sunny California has it's down points in the world of motorsports enthusiast. I had a pretty built SR20det with most the Greddy/Trust hot rod bits until I got popped by a local PD. He took pictures of everything and told me to ref it. Man I love the power of the SR. The car just felt right.

My thoughts of going with the KA24DER was exactly what Nikeboy355 stated, "if I get into trouble, I just have to swap out the intake manifold."

I may of be getting off the topic here but I think we have a good tread going here so I'm just gonna ask.

So... another question that comes to mind is, if you do head work port/polish w/o decking/knifing the bottom(bumping up the compression), can you still pass smog with all the emission hooked up? My instructor said yes but I thought I ask someone here that may have experienced this in real life.

[Promise Land]

what type of SC? The Eaton roots style or a Rotrex? I have only seen the roots style, but have given thought to build a kit around the Rotrex SC. They can go up to 400hp with good tuning.

[grexs13]

what type of SC? The Eaton roots style or a Rotrex? I have only seen the roots style, but have given thought to build a kit around the Rotrex SC. They can go up to 400hp with good tuning.


the KA24DER kit, which is set up for M62 Eaton roots.

[SuperBlackS14]

I was actually wondering the same thing, especially cuz in NY its straight OBD-II. I was planning to just Daisy chain everything with Hose Candy, but I had a spare 95 Intake Mani lying around and it looks like most of the mounting provisions are on the lower Plenum, which is removed for the KA24DER kit... so I'm not sure myself.

[Nikeboy355]

I'd like to buy one of these KA24DER kits and paint or coat everything in black...
Tune the ECU on 91 and just drive into a smog check place...

Act like regular while the tech does the test and for some reason, I think it will pass...

Functionally we are being just as efficient if not better...
I'm not trying to break the law, just work within it's confines...

And make about 250 reliable HP using Nissan parts...

[Def]

Why not just run a sleeper turbo setup on a KA, then if you've got to go to a ref it's as simple as swapping to a stock exhaust manifold and stock intake piping.

The stock SMIC is struggling at 9-10 psi, but it's doable if you tune very conservatively.

I'd run a GT2560R (aka T28) on a KA due to the larger engine. Run it around wastegate boost with some 370's or STi 525's. Learn to tune and it could be done super cheap, like $1-1.2k total (or even less really, but that's a safe range).

Swapping it back to stock would be a ~3 hr job or so taking your time, which isn't very hard.

[Bushido]

why not twin charge the KA?

[Nikeboy355]

Unfortunately, every police officer knows what a turbo kit is these days...

Technically, the law states that if the cop has reasonable suspicion that the engine is modified, he can ask that the hood be popped...
Reasonable suspicion includes having a non-OEM muffler or having an aftermarket gauge visible... or hearing a blow off valve... or a visible intercooler...

In my past, I have run SR20s with T3/T4 turbos with a stock Subaru WRX muffler and it worked perfectly... Zero attention from the cops... Also because I don't drive like an idiot...

For this most current setup, I picked up a Subaru STi muffler and was thinking that I might be able to get away with this with the SC... Without any attention from the police...

It's just an idea right now... I also have a twin scroll EVO turbo as my other DIY project...
The point of this car is that it must be quiet... And it must be smog-able when the time comes...

It's easy to make a loud high horsepower car these days... It's hard to make a quiet reliable legal monster that is packaged like OEM...

[SuperBlackS14]

it's easy to make a loud high horsepower car these days... It's hard to make a quiet reliable legal monster that is packaged like OEM...

Now that is true, and a good build philosophy to my mind.

[Te37]

Drop a vq in that and call it a day, use all oem exhaust intake ecu...ect. I didn't know the law was so strict over there. I live on the other side of the country in Atlanta and you can go strait pipe sr with huge front mount and no front bumper and cops don't even flinch.
So your saying that you can get in trouble with an sr swapped s14? Must be all the idiots with riced out cars getting in trouble and now you can't do anything. They can even look under your hood? Wtf?! How is a cop going to know what is original or not? What kind of trouble do you get into? Car impounded or big fine? I run cat less with apexi noir and pay 50$ bucks a year to get my emissions "passed".

[SuperBlackS14]

See, while the VQ is a good engine, swapping one requires standalone, or a complete donor car, because of all the security systems, Immobilizer, ect.

Honestly if there was no Budget, I'd do the E-ROD LS3 swap, but I don't have 10k plus for my S-chassis. The SC kit even with the extras and the actual blower, are still cheaper than an LS3 and in some cases a complete swap-VQ... (note I said some).

[grexs13]

IMHO, I'm older than most of the people in this board. I still love driving these S chassis. It just feels that the chassis is over built for the engine output. I want to make the car balance and more enjoyable to drive. My goal is pretty much what Nikeboy335 said. More power but quietly. I guess my age is getting the best of me. haha!

[SuperBlackS14]

I would be happy with a more low-key setup, I got pulled over for the third time in 3 months because of my Apex'i N1... Albany takes itself too seriously.

[Nikeboy355]

Ryan Klatt sent me an email that he believes it will pass smog since the supercharger came from a smog legal truck setup...

But I think it should be tested over here in California... If it can pass the sniffer, than it will be gold...

SR20s are not an option in California anymore for me and I want about the same power (250-300HP)...
KA24DER with a quiet exhaust just might do it...
E85 is an option for more power if needed...

The other benefits of this setup compared to turbo is that there is less engine bay heat (no turbo manifold or turbo), no intercooler piping, no turbo oil and water lines to run, and I can make an intake pipe that would connect to the stock air box...

This is what a regular Subaru WRX muffler looks like on one of my old S13s...

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/MVC-213S.jpg

[GroundPerformance]

Ran the same exhaust on my previous sleeper KA-T build..

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/472024_3461444860890_1413997181_33319613_905833680 _o.jpg

[grexs13]

Those are nice mufflers! I'm running Fujitsubo and painted the muffler flat black except for the tip to try stay under the radar. Yesterday I poke and welded an bong for the emission on a DC header. The stock casted exhaust manifold is pretty restricted, it may play a big role in keeping the power/emission suppressed.

@ Nikeboy355, even thought the parts came off a smog legal vehicle, I think the tune will play a major factor especially for OBD1 engines I think.

[SuperBlackS14]

If someone manages a legal DER setup, I would love to see it. It just isn't in the cards for me at the moment...

[GroundPerformance]

So what's the verdict here.. Anyone in Socal rocking a KA24DER yet??

[Kingtal0n]

its 2013 now.

The way I would rock a stock KA to pass an inspection? Rear mount, oil less turbocharger.
That way, engine compartment stays 99% stock, only the intake pipe seems to "wrap around the engine and dissapear"

[GroundPerformance]

I was actually just seeing if anyone in Socal used the KA24DER setups.

[grexs13]

I haven't heard anyone S/C in norcal so far. I ended up autox-ed my s13. I think S/C would be better for that application for autox. I still have my S/C parts but since no one has any support/tune for OBD1 I went turbo. :(

[hotlavaflow]

I prefer KA-T but I'm currently working on a KA-R set-up for my cousin. The R is cool. For me it's not enough power but it looks more stock than a turbo setup. Also the charger I'm using is off an Xterra. I would figure it could be made to pass smog if necessary. The Xterra does. But I'm in NY so I don't have to worry about that.

Early mock up, currently fabbing the alternator relocation bracket.

[SuperBlackS14]

I haven't heard anyone S/C in norcal so far. I ended up autox-ed my s13. I think S/C would be better for that application for autox. I still have my S/C parts but since no one has any support/tune for OBD1 I went turbo. :(

Not quite sure what you mean. The guys that Run KA-T. Org can provide bass Maps... And as far as engine management, you can run NisTune, NismoTronic, or any standalone.

[grexs13]

Not quite sure what you mean. The guys that Run KA-T. Org can provide bass Maps... And as far as engine management, you can run NisTune, NismoTronic, or any standalone.


I contacted KA24deR and they only have base tune for OBDII not for earlier KA24de. I have AEM stand alone system and they don't do AEM either. I know the tune must be different from turbo than SC but what is everyones opinion on trying to run a stock t28 off a SR for base map?

[SuperBlackS14]

I contacted KA24deR and they only have base tune for OBDII not for earlier KA24de. I have AEM stand alone system and they don't do AEM either. I know the tune must be different from turbo than SC but what is everyones opinion on trying to run a stock t28 off a SR for base map?

I feel like there may have been a communication breakdown somewhere.... KAs are the same... And up till recently, not even NisTune did OBD2 stuff... I mean a base tune is a base tune for a KA... I asked them, and they said np for my S14 as long as I was running NisTune or JWT... But the specialize in base maps for NisTune.

[GroundPerformance]

95 S14 OBD1 is fully supported by Nistune and KA24DER actually provides the basemap for it. It's the OBD2 ECU which is not supported. However you can convert an S14 OBD2 to an OBD1 ECU fairly easily.

[hatchtastic]

If you want to go s/c and want more power there is the m90. A lot of people have used it and I'm currently collecting everything to do it myself. The m90 is easily capable of 20 psi and unlike the m62 can be innercooled so achieving that boost is probable on a proper build. It will also push 10 psi a lot Moe efficiently than the m62. Obviously there is no ready made kit for it but making a bracket to run it on the exhaust side is not to difficult for someone with even just a little experience. As for tuning for this I will be using nistune.

[SuperBlackS14]

Get in contact with Nistune, I believe they are out of beta or very close to being out of Beta for their OBD-II boards which they tested on a 96 ECU.

[grexs13]

I'm assuming that I gotta purchase a NisTune opposed to what I already have (AEM) correct? or can they just download Nistune's tune into my AEM? Sorry I know it's a retarded question and I kinda know the answer but, just throwing it out there for people that maybe reading this tread and doing their diligence. ;P

[SuperBlackS14]

A google search of both EMSes show that they do indeed use different file types for saved maps. I can't comment on each one since I've owned neither, but as long as you have the tuning software, any competent tuner should be able to dial in a base-map, and who knows, Klattr1 may even appreciate it if you had a base map dialed in (using all their specified stuff 370cc Injectors, Q45 TB, Q45 MAF, ect) using AEM, and sent it to them.

I'm not a tech guru by any means, but as far as I can glean, the above is true. But again, a tuner should be able to dial it in for you. Might not be able to drive your car to the shop after you install the parts, but...