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sykikchimp
01-27-2004, 02:12 PM
I am looking to put a roll bar, or cage in the car in the very near future. I would love a well built custom cage, and this is the route I will most likely go (If I can find someone good and cheap to do it.)

I would love to see pics of your cages or roll bars so I can get some ideas about mounting points etc. Maybe your thoughts on what works and what doesn't would be great too!

Charles :rawk:

TRUENOCOUPE
01-27-2004, 02:29 PM
For what Race?

DSC
01-27-2004, 04:57 PM
I've been gathering pics while working on a cage design myself.
Here (http://www.240motorsports.com/zilvia/cage/) is the directory of examples.

Many of the designs won't be legal for (amature) competetion but they get you thinking :)
I think I'll craft my cage out of empty paper rolls, tow the car up to the fabricator and say "do this please, how much?" :) haha
Gotta check with THE book for diamater and wall thickness specs...

LINKS
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=651229
http://forums.corner-carvers.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7978
http://e30m3performance.com/tech_articles/cage_symposium/cage_symposium.htm

After staring at my shell of an s13 for a while I decided that the main hoop should mount to the front of the rear seat if possible, rather than the floor, in order to give the best clearance. I'm not sure what the rules are like and I'd like to debate and talk with a cage fabricator about how it would affect the chassis rigidity and more importantly the safety of the cage. Just looking at it...I think that's the best place to mount the main hoop. I strongly suggest the rear braces to the main hoop mount to the shock towers rather than a random point of the floor or the wheel wells...this is how most of the pics have it done and should give the best strength improvements. If at all possible, brace the front shock towers. I should have a bar going straight to the shock tower from the forward part of the cage going through the dash and another from the base of the forward bars up at an angle meeting the other bar at the same mounting plate on the shock tower.

sykikchimp
01-27-2004, 05:23 PM
For what Race?

just for HPDE's and track days right now. Could eventually run ITS with it, so I would want to make sure the cage is scca legal.

sykikchimp
01-27-2004, 05:28 PM
DSC - is shooting a bar through the firewall and connecting it to the front strut tower legal?

DSC
01-27-2004, 05:34 PM
It is not IT legal as of 2003, being scca, prolly still isn't but should be!

SleepySR
01-27-2004, 10:28 PM
charles i'm in the processs of puting together a 4 pt cage for my s14 and will post some pics . for idea purposes

HippoSleek
01-28-2004, 10:41 AM
4 pt. is not a cage, it is a roll bar. Cage = 6-10 pts, depending on sanctioning body.

Charles and Dave -- I would advise you to hit a few races and check out the way ITA and ITS s13's have done their cages before you get started. There are now two IT s13's in the MARRS series (both of which will likely run at VIR this spring/summer). I'm not sure if there are any in the local regions near you (look up the website for your local SCCA and check out the results). Both are well built cars -- one often runs top 3 ITA and the other is a new creation from Joe McG (NASA instructor who drove green s14). Also, any pics of Bob Stretch's set up can only help.

Charles - if you are just putting it in for HPDEs, I would consider talking to a good shop about having them do a custom 4 point bar that could later be upgraded with the additional mounting points. If you are going to drive the car on the streets as well, you might as well be able to get in an out w/o crawling over door bars. Not to mention the reduced risk from not having all that metal near you inside. Having ridden in a fully caged s13, ingress and egress was not something I could stand on a daily basis.

hurleyboi514
01-28-2004, 04:01 PM
ive got a friend that can weld, another friend with a pipe bender, and a race shop in town that has roll bar piping, so i may end up making my own cage. im in the same spot charles is though, except im not sure if i wanna do a legal cage, or not b/c i probably won't race this car in a series ever... dunno yet...

Bone
01-28-2004, 07:06 PM
From my experience building off road cages I was instructed that it is unsafe to build a cage and attache the seats to the car itself. The reason being if you were in a serious crash the cage could actually hurt you worse than not having one providing the body was shifted. I noticed that all the pictures I have seen in the link above the seats were not mounted on a loop from the cage. It may not completely apply for a reason I am unaware of in this case, However If I was to build a cage for mine I would attempt to mount the seats to the cage itself. Am I correct that the seat(s) should be mounted to the cage or am I over looking something that is obvious?

DSC
01-28-2004, 08:17 PM
You are correct bone but only for some seats. The solid framed seats should have a seat back brace that attaches the back of the seat to the roll cage/bar. Other seats are designed to flex slightly (non-adjustable seats so they don't snap back onto the roll bar) to actually absorb some of the impact of you coming to a dead stop...
Much like factory crumple zones. since those were taken out when you put a cage in, it's nice if the seat can do some of that work :)

sykikchimp
01-29-2004, 08:46 AM
Mark, that's pretty much what I was thinking. A custom roll bar that I could expand to a full cage later.

I saw vid's of Joe's new S13. I'm glad he's finally got it on track. I'll have to get out to one of the races and check out the car. He has an AWESOME cage builder. The cage in his s14 is super nice.

B96v6
01-29-2004, 07:24 PM
Just an FYI, guys. An SCCA legal roll cage will be attached to the car at six points (rear bars, main hoop behind the front seats and front bars that run down the A pillars to the floor). There are provisions to add two additional bars to the cage, but no bars can pass through the firewall. The bars also cannot attach or connect suspension mounting points. You'll need to get a copy of a GCR for more info on mounting plates and other technical info. As for tubing, you'll need to check on that also, but I can tell you that you are allowed to use either 1.5" or 1.75" diameter tubing, but I don't recall the wall thickness off hand. We are using the 1.5" tubing in one of our ITS S14's (just started the bending today!) and 1.75" in the other. There are advantages to using either.

B96v6

adamhu
01-30-2004, 10:01 AM
guess i will pipe in ,

for our cars per FIA/CASC specs..for a roll bar we must use min 1.75 inch dia mild steel DOM tubing

for a roll cage 6 points we can use min 1.5 inch dia mild steel DOM tubing

in many areas and series both ERW and chromoly are being banned

adam

adamhu
01-30-2004, 10:03 AM
here is a link to the exact specs with wall thicknesses...in pdf...

http://www.casc.on.ca/documents/CASC-OR%20Race%20Regulations%202004.pdf

sykikchimp
01-30-2004, 11:57 AM
I do have a copy of the GCR.. Thanks for the info though.

What I'm looking for here really is more of design ideas.. like ways to do the door bars.. I'd like a 6-point, but the door bars is what is keeping me from that... I've seen some setups where the door bas run down near the door trim, but not in a 240.. any other ideas are welcome too. Pretty much the entire front half of the 6-point has a lot of options..

For example I saw some a-pillar bars in one of the FL cars where he had the bars curved around the dash. I wouldn't think that would be as safe, but it certainly makes things much easier to build, and you don't have to maim you dash..

And dash bars.. do you think it wise to run a dash bar? Many of the other things are pretty obvious like where the main hoop attachment points are going to be, and the rear support bars.. etc..

But anything where some creativity could be used is what I really would like to hear about. :)

HiPSI
01-31-2004, 12:18 PM
i've seen what you're talking about with the door bars swooping down almost to the floor along the front half of the door jamb, which would make getting in and out much easier for sure. as for the a pillar bars coming down and curving around the dash, i don't think that is legal by most sanctioning bodies is it? i've seen that done with "style" bars for showcars but never in a race legal cage.

HippoSleek
01-31-2004, 01:09 PM
While it isn't fun to accept, having a good cage means your car will become otherwise useless. :)

Personally, I would not skimp on door bars. I'd get full NASCAR bars (two bars with inter-supports, not the "X" deal) that run at bumper height. While getting in and out easily is a nice idea, the whole idea is proection. A car can come over the lower ones and impact the cockpit. While the X bars look like a nice compromise, it is harder to angle them out into the door skin. By angling out, you keep strengh and you give yourself more room -- plus you move the crush zone out (instead of it being w/n 4" of your seat).

Same thing with the a-pillar bars. Once you put a cage in a car, it becomes a race car. I've never seen a race car that later became a street car. That said, it's only a dash! Yes, you can make it so that they don't go through the dash, but why? Here, it is not really a question of strength b/c the rules won't allow you to bend *around* the dash. Instead, you just have to bend down and hit the floor sooner. This results in a sub-optimal attachment point as well as a bar and an a-pillar taking up your vision (not to mention a smaller area to get in and out of the car).

God willing, you only build one cage for the car...

(note: if it weren't for the fact that the car will become 100% useless off the track, I'd have a cage in the meeoter. But until I'm ready to go full blown racing, a nice sturdy bar suits me just fine.) JMO

TBreu007
01-31-2004, 10:35 PM
Definitely study your GCR before committing to a cage design. The last thing you want is to start building a cage just for HPDE's only later to decide you want to run in ITS or ITA and have an illegal cage that needs to be fully redone. SCCA's top priority is safety and inspectors are usually sticklers on cages.
The size tubing allowable is 1.5"x.125" or 1.75"x.095 mild steel DOM (that costs about $3.60 a foot)...ERW tubing will not be allowed by the SCCA. You can use CroMo, but its price and weight usually discourage its use.
1.75" tubing is slightly lighter and slightly stiffer. The 1.5" tubing will give you slightly more room inside the car and is easier to bend. The GCR states roll cage tubing bends will have no signs of crimping or wall failure, so a GOOD tubing bender is a necessity...the $60 one at Harbour Freight won't do it...believe me...I tried.
I'll take some pics of my ITS car. I designed the cage after studying cage designs in other cars, books and developing some experiments of my own. My cage is overkill, but is as safe as any cage and is VERY stiff.
I would definitely recommend NASCAR style door bars. I have a triple bar setup with three vertical bars tying them together.
Have your cage builder build a frame that wraps around your seat out of 1" tubing. It should be a single piece bent in a "U" that attaches to the cage behind the seat and to the floor in as many places as practical. With this setup and a FIA approved seat, a seat back brace is not needed. Some people (myself included) don't like the idea of a seat back brace since in a bad accident, it can actually poke through the seat severing your spinal cord. FIA seats are rated up to like 50 G's or something...if you take a 50 G hit hard enough to brake the seat, you're dead no matter what.
Instead of paper towel tubes, try taping straws together to make a miniature mock cage to test different designs and to show your cage builder what you want.

sykikchimp
02-02-2004, 04:36 PM
excellent advice!

I would LOVE to see some pics of your cage TBreu..

I'm thinking I'll get the cage built minus the door bars for now so that I can still daily drive it if necessary. I usually only drive it 2 or 3 days a week anyway. Then when I finally get myself a Daily driver, I'll go all out on the NASCAR bars. good idea?

TBreu - I'm sure I totally understand the seat brace your talking about.. (the U bend one) Do you have this in your car?

TBreu007
02-02-2004, 11:36 PM
Instead of going full NASCAR style ladder door bars, you can make a modified X door bar that protrudes into the door like a NASCAR style, but is lower in the middle making it easier to get in and out of. Porsche does this in their Supercups and GT3 RS. It's not quite as beefy as NASCAR style ladder bars, but much easier to get over while getting into the car. If it's safe enough for Porsche it's safe enough for me...just something else to think about.

If you're going to do track events and not race wheel to wheel for a while, door bars aren't a necessity since the chance of getting t-boned at a HPDE is fairly low. In roughly two years of teaching at HPDEs, I have never seen or heard of two cars coming together.

I have the U bend seat bracket and it's very sturdy. I'll take some pics. of it too possibly tomorrow.

DS 240R
02-04-2004, 05:40 PM
There are a bunch of pics of my cage up on monkey-r.com. Here's one of the door bars. http://monkey-r.com/jim/pages/DSCF0010.htm

The car is a B13 NX2000.

There's also some good S and B chassis cage discussion over at http://sr20forum.com/showthread.php?t=62007 and a couple of other topics under the SE-R Cup. Good pics, too.

TBreu007
02-04-2004, 11:00 PM
Keep :duh: forgetting :duh: digicam :duh:
Have it by my wallet to take to the shop tomorrowto take some pics. of my cage.
Here's a pic, but you can't see the cage http://www.chinmotorsports.com/gallery/Sebring%20International%20Raceway,%20January%2017, %202004/display.asp?imgName=IMG_0131.JPG

DSC
02-04-2004, 11:07 PM
cool pics DS240r

This is what I was talking about for the s13 main hoop.
http://monkey-r.com/jim/pages/DSCF0013.htm

For little 2dr cars that just seems like a better place to mount them...unless the spot is too weak?

Edit: Your my hero!
http://monkey-r.com/jim/pages/IMG_2659.htm

thx247
02-05-2004, 02:34 AM
TBreu007, people have survived impacts of over 90G's before, 50g's is not necessarily going to kill you, and seat back braces ARE useful.

DS 240R
02-05-2004, 09:18 AM
For little 2dr cars that just seems like a better place to mount them...unless the spot is too weak?

I think the seat is a lot stronger than the floorpan. In the NX it is thicker and a has a 90 bend in it, much better than the flat floor. The big problem you run into then is that it sets the main hoop more towards the rear of the car and then you have to get creative with the door bars. The work was done by Steve Scott out in LA.

Edit: Your my hero!http://monkey-r.com/jim/pages/IMG_2659.htm

Shoot, it is a race car, you gotta get rid of that stuff. It makes a difference, too. With a stock weight of about 2440 lbs, the NX is down to 2170 with 1/8 tank of gas and no driver. There's probably another 100 lbs I can take out and I still have the stock steel hood.

DSC
02-05-2004, 07:07 PM
hehe, yeah. I was just saying how you did it. I did my entire floor from the top of the gas tank to the firewall using a heat gun and scraper. Seeing you do it with dry ice makes me want to cry. :p

TBreu007
02-05-2004, 07:41 PM
THX, seat back braces are used almost no where else in the world in motorsports. It was originally brought about by roundey-round racers that want to use their aluminum Kirkeys and Ultra-shields that they have been using for years instead of dropping some major cash on a FIA seat that they might not even like. Yes, they are useful (and even mandatory in some sanctioning bodies)...especially for Aluminum seats.

If 40G survivability is good enough for the Naval Aerospace Medical Institute in jet fighters, it's good enough for me (and the FIA). Sure, accidents aren't though of as 100% fatal until over 90G's, but 27G's is enough to rupture your bladder and how many cars and cages will stay intact at anything over 50G's to protect the driver? The G's don't normally kill people...foreign object intrusion does.

Back on topic :)

Can anyone host my pics? They're way too big to post here and if I reduce them down, you won't be able to see much.

DSC
02-05-2004, 08:05 PM
I can host them if you can send them to me. PM me for an e-mail adress that will take large files.

DSC
02-05-2004, 11:31 PM
Sweet! Nice pannel for the door :) badass cage!
http://www.240motorsports.com/zilvia/cage/s13cage/

I've seen seat mounts like that before...similar anyway. cool stuff.
http://www.240motorsports.com/zilvia/cage/teg4.jpg

adamhu
02-06-2004, 09:11 AM
this small site may be of interest as well....(forgive my unprofessional welding skills :) ...philip and i did his roll bar last weekend )

http://www.turbo240sx.ca/ORFPROJECTS.html

DS 240R
02-06-2004, 02:12 PM
I'm not that familiar with the S chassis. What is the place those rear arms attach? Is that trunk floor right above the gas tank?

... still searching for a 240 :)

DS 240R
02-06-2004, 02:13 PM
I did my entire floor from the top of the gas tank to the firewall using a heat gun and scraper.

Oiy. I would not wish that on my worst enemy!

driftstyre
02-08-2004, 12:44 PM
DS240R, that a really nice and thorough cage. One question, what is going on with the talon in the background here
http://monkey-r.com/jim/pages/DSCF0024.htm

Also, if people are looking for photos of FIA cages, vermont sportscar in vermont has built many cages. Though they are probably a little over built for what most people here are looking for, the designs are all universal for a FIA Group N and some group A cars. All four suspension towers are tied in and on some cars, the rear subframe/diff mounting points are tied in from the top with smaller diameter tubing (which I can see being a benefit for drifting).
A GC8 WRX -- http://www.vtcar.com/wrxbuild.htm
Evo V group N -- http://www.vtcar.com/evogallery.htm

All are TIG and very time consuming

Also, here are some other pics:

http://www.cascadeautosport.com/evo7/IMG_1860web.jpg
http://www.cascadeautosport.com/evo7/IMG_1874web.jpg

stich welding seams -- http://cascadeautosport.com/siteimages/restoration/glennsarchive/cortina%2019.jpg
http://cascadeautosport.com/siteimages/restoration/glennsarchive/cortina%2018.jpg

DS 240R
02-08-2004, 12:53 PM
DS240R, that a really nice and thorough cage. One question, what is going on with the talon in the background here
http://monkey-r.com/jim/pages/DSCF0024.htm

The Talon with a/c makes a good daily driver.

Those pics are about 2 years old- I'll see if I can get more recent pics up at the shop with the pair of 3037 powered SE-Rs in the background if that will make you feel better :)

TBreu007
02-10-2004, 10:09 PM
DSC, thanks for posting the pics. and the compliments.

The next cage I build is for my girlfriend's "H" Production Mini race car...that should be a "little" easier :)

OCIS
03-12-2004, 11:47 AM
Here are few pics of my new cage. What do you guys think?

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4287467509

DS 240R
03-12-2004, 11:56 AM
Looks like a good start. You might want some more side-impact protection. You just have the one bar, right?

Nice and clean though the dash though. Nice work.

OCIS
03-12-2004, 12:57 PM
Looks like a good start. You might want some more side-impact protection. You just have the one bar, right?

Nice and clean though the dash though. Nice work.

Yes there is only one bar. But like you said it's only a start.

holisticbeatz
05-22-2004, 01:30 AM
Very nice OCIS, did you fabricate it yourself or had someone/shop do it for you? I saw a picture of your car here too:

http://img57.photobucket.com/albums/v175/winddrift/DD16/DD16_-_036.jpg

you bastard! Killing an innocent cone..

http://img57.photobucket.com/albums/v175/winddrift/DD16/DD16_-_020.jpg

laying down the rubber..

steve shadows
05-22-2004, 02:00 AM
solo2 is fun, havent done it yet, i did drag ez street can :down: :bash:

solo2 it is im going to have steen in signal hill CA do my cage. :whip:

OCIS
05-24-2004, 04:28 PM
holisticbeatz,

A company called UPFD did all the fab. work.

hellion240sx
05-24-2004, 04:58 PM
nice shots!!!!!

holisticbeatz
05-25-2004, 01:49 AM
Check this cage out! It's totally awesome!

http://www.worldwidechang.com/Pics/Cars/MyCar/Cage/

These pics belong to Alex Chang

steve shadows
05-25-2004, 02:41 AM
Check this cage out! It's totally awesome!

http://www.worldwidechang.com/Pics/Cars/MyCar/Cage/

These pics belong to Alex Chang

nice cage alex, im assuming your still a solo1 guy :coold:

DS 240R
05-25-2004, 12:33 PM
Check this cage out! It's totally awesome!

I hope that is sarcasm I am sensing.

http://www.worldwidechang.com/Pics/Cars/MyCar/Cage/DSC00001.JPG

That is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. Those bars will be the first thing that collapses in a roll-over. Why even do it if you aren't going to do it right (and safe)?

drift into a curb
05-25-2004, 02:21 PM
That's a cusco cage made of chromoly. It's been tested by plenty of Japanese car guys on and off the track. And although it's not SCCA-legal, they do have their own standards of testing and such (FIA). I would say it's a little more "streetable," but a street and race car are two very different extremes.

DS 240R
05-25-2004, 03:42 PM
Yeah, I've seen them before- only in 240s, but I am sure they make other applications. It isn't the material, but the design which is bad. Ask any cage fabricator and he'll give it a big thumbs down. It would be better to have a straight bar than the s bends.

Is it FIA approved? When you say tested, did they crash a car? Pics would be cool. Or did you just hear they tested it?

This cage is for ricers. But, to each his own.

driftstyre
05-25-2004, 04:04 PM
"they do have their own standards of testing and such (FIA)"

FIA cages are of a much higher standard than SCCA. That cusco cage would not be legal for either. There is no way that A pillar bar would survive a rollover. I think that cage is designed to provide chassis stiffness more than anything. Cusco calls it a roll bar and that is what it is. I like it though, just not going to survive much of a heavy roll.

This Corolla has a 18 pt WRC cage. It rolled 8 times flat out in 6th gear at over 120 mph. If you build your own cage model it after a modern Grp A, Grp N or WRC rallycar cage. Chassis stiffness and safety are unparallel in their design requirements.

DS 240R
05-25-2004, 07:07 PM
This Corolla has a 18 pt WRC cage. It rolled 8 times flat out in 6th gear at over 120 mph. If you build your own cage model it after a modern Grp A, Grp N or WRC rallycar cage. Chassis stiffness and safety are unparallel in their design requirements.

Unfortunately, some rule limit cage attachment points and don't allow things like plating down the a-pillar that rally cars do, so this isn't always an option.

Gladman
05-25-2004, 08:10 PM
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid107/pd1180479706f31b4a4c1b400901fb2a8/f968c0b6.jpg

my cage. aka roll bar.

bought 20ft of DOM seamless tubing and bent it up and welded it myself. ill probably sell it soon in favor of an 8pt cage.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4287500665

Gladman
05-25-2004, 08:20 PM
Yeah, I've seen them before- only in 240s, but I am sure they make other applications. It isn't the material, but the design which is bad. Ask any cage fabricator and he'll give it a big thumbs down. It would be better to have a straight bar than the s bends.

Is it FIA approved? When you say tested, did they crash a car? Pics would be cool. Or did you just hear they tested it?

This cage is for ricers. But, to each his own.


2 words "street car"

not everone is willing to sacrifice their car to install a cage... heres another word for you.... "resale"

Ricer240sx
05-25-2004, 09:05 PM
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid107/pd1180479706f31b4a4c1b400901fb2a8/f968c0b6.jpg

my cage. aka roll bar.

bought 20ft of DOM seamless tubing and bent it up and welded it myself. ill probably sell it soon in favor of an 8pt cage.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4287500665
y dont u jsut build off of that???

TBreu007
05-25-2004, 10:32 PM
How many people are all that worried about resale value on a 10+ year old $2000 street car?

steve shadows
05-26-2004, 01:28 AM
y dont u jsut build off of that???

thats what im looking for exactly

WilloW
05-26-2004, 01:46 AM
Anyone have any comments on the new Autopower rollbar for the S14?

Gladman
05-26-2004, 11:23 AM
thats what im looking for exactly



i want my next cage to be weld in. i want the rear stays to go all the way back to the rear of the trunk, i also dont want all the paint to light on fire and kill my brain cells as it gives off fumes, a lot easier just to sell the one i have and start fresh.

DS 240R
05-26-2004, 01:13 PM
How many people are all that worried about resale value on a 10+ year old $2000 street car?

True dat!

(I got mine for $600)

If it is a street car and not a racecar, why ask in the Motorsports forum?

hurleyboi514
05-26-2004, 02:08 PM
street cars can participate in motorsports...

Gladman
05-31-2004, 05:22 PM
True dat!

(I got mine for $600)

If it is a street car and not a racecar, why ask in the Motorsports forum?


Why are people flaming a cage thats obviously in a street car?

khoadogg
11-11-2004, 09:17 PM
lalalalala..........
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid103/pc3bede37e79594a50c5ebab006724566/f9a36a6a.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid107/p3c61545fe9cce7d5f5779d343a0a601c/f95b87f0.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid107/p43a570da4573cdabb682562f99f5bcac/f95b86b5.jpg

Autopower 6pt w/ diag. bar, door bars, harness bar, head restraint.

Var
11-11-2004, 09:34 PM
i got the same thing in both of my cars. the fitment is no good. i would only use the roll bar if i had to do it again. They build it off a template so obviously it wont be as good as a custom one that's fitted and welded inside of your car. I'm gonna end up selling both my autopowers for a custom 10pt.

Inland180
11-11-2004, 09:37 PM
Seen this one personally. Its not that bad. :)

blu808
11-12-2004, 04:26 AM
I just installed my custom autopower into my s14 tonight. Its a 6 point, and fits like a champ. It is soo close to the body you cant even fit your finger in the gap. But then again i had it made larger due to the fact that i dont have interior.

phrozen
11-27-2004, 02:38 AM
khoa u show off =P

thx247
11-27-2004, 11:32 AM
Stock auto power 6 point was not safe for me to sit in at all. I sit with the stock seat all the way back minus one notch. My head was 1 inch away from the bars with padding. If you ask me its a poor excuse for a cage. The exposed bolts should also be addressed if you have that cage, it would sucl to rip a muscle on one in an accident.

khoadogg
11-27-2004, 11:40 AM
I tape the bolts and put padding over it to prevent any extra accidents. You gotta admit tho, rollcages are mother friendly! I ultimately wanna rock a 9 or 12pt safety 21 cage.