My never ending battle with this CA18DET

[omgwtf]

I have been fighting this thing since i got it put in the ca it hasnt been right since day one! its been 3 years mostly due to the military moving me around, but ive never gotten to really drive my car and its really starting to get to me. Now that my rant is done, i am trying to fix the car wanting to run rich when i hit the gas. it will idle around 15:1 jumping around erratically but when i hit the gas even under no load it goes full rich. ive checked vacuum lines 100 times i hooked up an air compressor and found a few leaks in my intercooler piping yesterday and fixed those. ive put 3 diff MAFS on the car with no help, ive set fuel pressure the correct way, ive set tps, ive set timing. IDK WHAT THIS THINGS PROBLEM IS?!?!? i am running nistune, 444cc inj, n60 or n62 MAFS i have both, nismo adj FPR, gt28rs, FMIC, Greddy type S, CP forged pistons, fully rebuilt with all nissan gaskets 2000 miles ago, AEM UEGO wideband, knock sensor bypassed. Thats all i can think of at the moment. I really want to figure this thing out if not im gonna use the engine for target practice im getting fed up with it and go SR. it will hesistae so bad i can barely drive it. i pulled injectors the other day to look at them but had to sttop mid way and put them back in could my o-ring have started leaking air into the manifold? or do i have a leaky injector ( i wouldnt think bc the idle is on the leaner side) ANYONE give me what ever you have flaming or not i dont care at this point i just want it fixed.

[babyjesus]

Though i can't say this is the problem with your car. I was experienceing these exact symptoms. Turned out it was my CTS (coolant temp sensor). Idk if CA's have them. but mine was failing and causing the car to sputter under load, run extremely rish, and just be overall stupid. changed it out (15 bucks) and boom , no more problems. After having read up about it, a lot of people have cts failure.

hope this helps!

-best, babyjesus

[omgwtf]

i forgot to mention that i changed it with one for a KA like a month ago. i assume its good it seems to be reading correct when looking at my gauges in nistune

[babyjesus]

on ka there are two, one that goes to the ecu, and the other to your gauges. the one that's to the ecu monitors fuel levels according to temp, the other just reads temp.

[kamilitaryman]

Yup, def check your coolant sensor. Im assuming you're using the CA18DET ecu? If so, is it giving you any CELs?

[g35gabby]

where is your CAS set to? is it retarding timing causing too much causing the over fueling? Are you sure the timing is set correctly and not off a tooth or 2?

What does it do when it drives down the block? any burps or hiccups?

Have you checked the plugs and seen how if it is rich on all cylinders or maybe just 1 plug is fouled? What are you using to monitor your A/F? wideband?

I would get a fresh CTS, they are known to even cause issues of the car not starting because they are so picky. Given that you had leaks, your plugs maybe a tad fouled already, so might consider a fresh set too and check those that come out for their condition. This will tell you a lot and likely where to go next.

GL dude, these are hard motors to work on....

Ps has it ever run "right"?

[omgwtf]

where is your CAS set to? is it retarding timing causing too much causing the over fueling? Are you sure the timing is set correctly and not off a tooth or 2?

What does it do when it drives down the block? any burps or hiccups?

Have you checked the plugs and seen how if it is rich on all cylinders or maybe just 1 plug is fouled? What are you using to monitor your A/F? wideband?

I would get a fresh CTS, they are known to even cause issues of the car not starting because they are so picky. Given that you had leaks, your plugs maybe a tad fouled already, so might consider a fresh set too and check those that come out for their condition. This will tell you a lot and likely where to go next.

GL dude, these are hard motors to work on....

Ps has it ever run "right"?

CAS is set dead center timing light confirms 15* BTDC, timing is on the mark, plugs have been running rich so im going to change them out for new ones, cts is the correct one for the ecu not the temp gauge ( i got the 2 pin one), im using AEM UEGO wideband with digital gauge, and no it has never really run "right" to me it a frustrating guy.

**Update** i foufn that i didnt burn my last MAF change into the ECU and i did this now it runs a lot better than before but still missing a bit under cruise, waiting for it to cool down then gonna change the plugs and see what that does. does anyone know how to use acceleration increase for fuel mapping on nistune. it goes lean when you blip the throttle to get ready to let the clutch out before you take off from a light. everywhere else seems decent, at least better than before.

[omgwtf]

oh yeah and no codes when im in consult

[ultimateirving]

just make sure when u drop the new plugs in that u gap them properly, depending on how much boost your running. for example, i run 16psi on e85, using bkr7e-11 and gapped my plugs to .025, i can take it to 7k without any hesitation/misses.

[omgwtf]

just make sure when u drop the new plugs in that u gap them properly, depending on how much boost your running. for example, i run 16psi on e85, using bkr7e-11 and gapped my plugs to .025, i can take it to 7k without any hesitation/misses.

thanks for the replies. i got 6's bc of all my running rich i dont wanna foul out another set. when i get it sorted ill run a 7 heat range and im planning on around 17ish psi. how do you know where to gap them for optimal performance?

[ultimateirving]

trial and error haha! i ran my plugs at all sizes, but at 16psi, .025 doesnt blow out, and it doesnt misfire, so im keeping it there

[omgwtf]

trial and error haha! i ran my plugs at all sizes, but at 16psi, .025 doesnt blow out, and it doesnt misfire, so im keeping it there

ill try it around there what turbo are you running? and have you had any issues with the diaphragm on your type s? ive seen a lot of ppl have issues with them leaking and i love the sound and i dont wanna lose the type s when it dies. i know its off topic....

[ultimateirving]

im running s14 t28, so nothing fancy. i took out one spring from my type s because thats what all the evo/subi guys do, and so far no boost leaks =)

[Croustibat]

TBH plug gap too small does not make you lose that much power, so better have it a bit smaller than necessary. I think i gapped mine to 0.6mm. GET 7's though, standard ones, irridium are just a waste of money.

I got a CA and a nistune too, running e85 and gt2560r turbo.

The ECU automatically enrich when you go full throttle for a short period of time. In fact, it just jumps to the rightmost column on your fuel map (but it does not show it on nistune). But your problem is not there... i think you did not set injector latency properly. Try a bigger value.

[omgwtf]

TBH plug gap too small does not make you lose that much power, so better have it a bit smaller than necessary. I think i gapped mine to 0.6mm. GET 7's though, standard ones, irridium are just a waste of money.

I got a CA and a nistune too, running e85 and gt2560r turbo.

The ECU automatically enrich when you go full throttle for a short period of time. In fact, it just jumps to the rightmost column on your fuel map (but it does not show it on nistune). But your problem is not there... i think you did not set injector latency properly. Try a bigger value.

thanks for the input! I got the latency from matt from nistune its set at 1040 for 444cc injectors. so i shouldnt mess with accel increase fuel at all?
what else would cause it to go lean when i come on throttle after idling?

[omgwtf]

so now i notice that when it warms up it wants to idle super lean like 17-18 to 1 ive got nistune running the stock jdm map with just 444ccs and n60 mafs changed with latency changed to 1040 any ideas?

[g35gabby]

That's way lean. what is our boost gauge read?

[omgwtf]

17-18ish in/hg sometimes itll dip to 15-16 if the idle goes below 900

[g35gabby]

What do you have the idle set at? it should be 800

Sounds like you still have some leaks to clean up. 18-24 is a good healthy idle.

[omgwtf]

It's set at 900. You think when I pulled the injectors out the o-ring might have gotten unseated when it gets hot and cause a leak?

[g35gabby]

could be. seals are cheap enough to replace....

We rushed on my brother in laws mach 1 and tore up 2 seals putting his fuel rail back on so with the limited space the CA has I would think it would be extremely easy to do.

[omgwtf]

could be. seals are cheap enough to replace....

We rushed on my brother in laws mach 1 and tore up 2 seals putting his fuel rail back on so with the limited space the CA has I would think it would be extremely easy to do.

going out now to replaced the seals. i will keep you updated on what happens

[omgwtf]

so i changed the o rings out and started it up and its still acting the same. i sprayed some maf cleaner around the injectors and found that it makes the idle change so its leaking still. i guess im just gonna get new injectors with the o rings and see if that changes anything.

[omgwtf]

800cc deatschwerks are in the mail. anyone know if these come with o-rings?

[g35gabby]

if it is the rail. I have spare OE rail sitting in one of my spare bedrooms if you need it.

[omgwtf]

if it is the rail. I have spare OE rail sitting in one of my spare bedrooms if you need it.

nah its where the injectors go into the manifold, thanks though. i wanted to have headroom with my power goal of 300-350 so i figured why not im going to get these anyways. hopefully this will fix my issue. BTW i used KA24E injectors and they look exactly like the factory o rings, same part #s. so in theory they should work. i just dont know if these are the correct injectors they came with the motor i was told they are 444ccs out of a rb26dett but i havent been able to track them down with the numbers on the injectors.

[Croustibat]

1040µs for 444 is meh... if it is the real value, that is no good.
I use 510 and got a long 820µs. I will be using 1000cc sometimes near, when i finish working on the chassis.

Did you check your fuel filter too ?

I really am interested in how you resolve this. I had somewhat the same problem, and just "fixed" it by using bigger values in the fuel map.

I know there was a bug with the nistune, with the temp enrichment map not beeing resized when using the injector resize button. I dont know if it was fixed since. Maybe you were still in the "not hot enough" zone before and the ECU kept adding fuel, while now you got out of that zone and the ECU does not use the cold enrichment table ?

injector latency matters a lot when they nearly dont have to open, after that it is the K value. If it gets lean at idle / no load / blip, try a higher latency value, if it gets too rich lower it. But imho 1040 is already way too much, it should not be there.

Are you sure about the AFR sensor / gauge ? Do you have a spare resistor box ?

Also, you could try contacting matt on nistune forum.

Good luck.

[g35gabby]

ka24e injectors are like 260s If memory serves(not sure if they are high or low impedance, but I would imagine they are high given I don't remember there being a resistor pack on the KA-E). OE CA injectors are 370s and low impedance.

any hobby shop should be able to flow test your injectors and tell you what they are rated for. they can also tell you if there is a difference in rates as far as one firing more/less fuel than the other.

560s out of boosted RX7s work, or as you are doing, you can order bigger injectors.

[omgwtf]

1040µs for 444 is meh... if it is the real value, that is no good.
I use 510 and got a long 820µs. I will be using 1000cc sometimes near, when i finish working on the chassis.

Did you check your fuel filter too ?

I really am interested in how you resolve this. I had somewhat the same problem, and just "fixed" it by using bigger values in the fuel map.

I know there was a bug with the nistune, with the temp enrichment map not beeing resized when using the injector resize button. I dont know if it was fixed since. Maybe you were still in the "not hot enough" zone before and the ECU kept adding fuel, while now you got out of that zone and the ECU does not use the cold enrichment table ?

injector latency matters a lot when they nearly dont have to open, after that it is the K value. If it gets lean at idle / no load / blip, try a higher latency value, if it gets too rich lower it. But imho 1040 is already way too much, it should not be there.

Are you sure about the AFR sensor / gauge ? Do you have a spare resistor box ?

Also, you could try contacting matt on nistune forum.

Good luck.

i havent checked the filter i would think that would be good seeing as it idles ok until hot. im still learning nistune so im at the very basics of it i dont want to mess too much with tuning until i have it at least idling OK. also im using the ca18de ecu but i let matt know that when i ordered my nistune setup. i installed the board myself. ive been using the jdm base map with just changing the MAFS and injector size thenmessing with latency to try and iron out idle up to this point.after these injectors come i can take a log and send it to you if you dont mind and maybe you can spot something my untrained eye doesnt. i assume the wideband is working correctly i havent verified on the dyno yet i want the car to be halfway right before i even come in there with it, its kind of embarrassing to have a jacked up car and try and get tuning done on it and have them point out all my mistakes.

thanks for all the replies guys!!


and gabby i meant to say i used the injector o-rings from the ka24e not the injectors hah my bad.

hopefully ill get good results from the new 800cs ones they should be here tomm

[Croustibat]

I dont know about the CA18DE ECU, euro S13 have a CA18DET as standard :D

it may be a part of the problem. Did you compare both ECUs pinouts ? IF they are the same then it should be ok though.

one of the problem (imho) of the ca18det ECU, and probably of the ca18de one, is that they have a saturated injector driver and use peak and hold injectors. That is somewhat "a trick" that causes problems when going with bigger injectors. Basically it leads to higher injector latency, and it is proportionnal to the injector size.

If you can get saturated injectors ( high Z) that fit the ramp, it would work better. I plan to do exactly that. You just need to remove dropping resistor and its ok. DONT remove the dropping resistor with low Z injectors or you will fry both injectors and ECU.

For now, try to clean the surfaces where injectors meet rail and manifold, lubricate injector seals when installing them back, and try not tearing them.

FYI DSM injectors work very well, their pint is a bit shorter so they are even easier to fit. And they are 510cc at 3bar, so something like 480 at CA18DET fuel pressure.

Once you are sure about a leakless injector setup, you can tune. Here is what i do to get a good latency and K value when changing injectors:

1/ get the car to warm up and keep idle. Even if you have to set idle higher.

2/load a fuel map with 14:1 commanded AFR for the lower left quarter, 13:1 for upper left and lower right, 12:1 for upper right.

Adjust latency at idle so you get the desired 14:1 . Then apply throttle so you are still in the lower left corner of the fuel map. You should still be at the same 14:1, if you arent adjust latency and K value (by using the rescale injector tool and checking the resize TTP min/max checkbox, do NOT change K value by hand. You can do that easily by using your current K value in the "new injector size" and the desired K value in the "old injector size").

That should give you a proper latency / K value.

Try blipping the throttle and see how it reacts. Lean ? More latency, less K. Rich ? Less latency, more K.

Once this is done, go driving (these values are quite safe, and if you are using oem timing map it wont matter), and note when your wideband tells you dont have the desired value. Also, one very important thing to do is copy fuel and timing value from normal to knock map. The knock sensor is not efficient and you can bounce from normal to knock map without knock. Most CA tuners just try to disable it, either by copying the maps, or by bypassing the sensor (1K or 500 ohm resistor at the ecu pins, i cant remember. It makes the ECU believe the knock sensor is here and everything is well).

Basically, the more load is applies, the more the K value is important. The less load, the more latency is important.

You may not get an ideal latency / K value, and that is the saturated driver and low Z + resistor box combo problem. At that point, forget about AFR view of the nistune fuel map, you cant really use it.

[g35gabby]

people in the states have used CA18DE ECUs for ages. all you need is a tune for it to be incorporated properly.

DSM injectors state side are 450s, unless you get them out of an auto tragic car and then they are 390s. Lancer Evo injectors are 510CC, but on a regular bases show abnormal flow when put on a bench tester.

good chart I found

http://www.club-s12.org/images/Injector_Table.jpg

[omgwtf]

Man than is an awesome write up thanks for that reply! I'll try it out this weekend and see what I can't figure out

[omgwtf]

Hey thanks man thats an awesome write up. ill try it this weekend injectors were supposed to be here today but they didnt show up

[omgwtf]

injectors still havent came in. i went to mess around with it anyways today and when i started it i had to feather the gas pedal to get it to stay running. if i tried to give it gas it would hit 1100 to 1200 then sputter and backfire through the intake. i notice a hissing sound which seems like its coming from the intake, maybe just the iacv working? but i sprayed maf cleaner around everywhere touching the intake and no change in idle like last time where the injectors meet the intake. the hissing got less noticeable when it was hot and the idle improved. it will rev if you lightly take the throttle up when warm but you still cant rev it hard without the stumbling and intake backfire

[omgwtf]

injectors are here it came with a sheet with all the flow patterns. anyone know how to translate the latency data to put it into nistune? im about to do some google surfing but maybe someone here will point it out first.

[omgwtf]

it says .5 milliseconds at 12 volts so im assuming i should set it to 500 for the latency?

[g35gabby]

that hissing sound is a vac leak and the reason your idle sucks.

[omgwtf]

i cant get it to show where the leak is i tried pressurizing the system with an sir compressor and spraying around the intake with no results. i put in the 800 cc injectors and the car acts stupid and wants to cut off with nistune mapped to the injectors. idk what is going on i want a smoke tester but theyre a grand so im not gonna be buying one of those. ive never taken a car to anyone to get it fixed but this one might be my first defeat.

[Croustibat]

it says .5 milliseconds at 12 volts so im assuming i should set it to 500 for the latency?

Remember it is a starting value, so it may need to tweaked. I would even say to set a lower latency like 450, as your injectors are working at near 14V, not 12. Pretty impressive low value for 800cc injectors though.


I did reread your first post and think i found the culprit.

"Greddy type S" > that is a bov, not the suspension, right ?

If it is the BOV, either recirc or bin it ... they are not double chamber/piston design, and will always leak on depression. That is not a problem if they are recirced, but it is one when not.

I am using a type RS, which is basically the same. I removed it before mapping the car. And since it is back on, my idle went 2 to 3 points richer ( unmetered air is entering so it should go leaner, i dont really understand that, but hey)

[omgwtf]

ok, havent had a chance to recirc the bov BUT i did call up autovaughn performance and they hooked me up with some advice, they seem to be good people there. i have the ca18de ecu and i had the ca18det maps loaded to it to run said ca18det. they told me to try switching my map to the ca18de one and so far with a little bit of minor tweaking it has made a big difference getting it running. i can actually drive the car now! more updates to follow after i get some time to mess with the car more

[ANDY black s13]

Bump for updates on a interesting thread,I got to do this soon,Just need fit new big ends :),

[g35gabby]

ca18de maps should lean way out in the top end I would think. Less the Nistune then adapts for boost, compression, and all that jazz?

[omgwtf]

its actually a little bit rich throughout as ive been driving since monday. i had to fix an oil leak today but when i get time im going to start playing with the maps and see where i can get with it. its got a bit of a miss at low speeds but not bad at all. i need to pull out the speedo this weekend and try and rebuild it, it only works when its hot outside or if you smack the crap out of the dash until it starts to work hah. its gotta be a loose solder joint somewhere.

[Croustibat]

ca18de maps should lean way out in the top end I would think. Less the Nistune then adapts for boost, compression, and all that jazz?

The problem was not the maps themselves, but the address file used with them. When programming the nistune with a ca18det address file, it basically was putting data in the wrong place, resulting in randomly working ECU.

Please also do not "think" when you actually dont know anything about what you are saying, thanks.

Every ECU interpolates values from the last programmed ones when going out of boundaries. When the current load goes higher than programmed load, it does not just fuel the same as before. Same goes for the timing, the ECU continues to add or remove timing the same way.

Fueling wise, all maps somewhat look the same. You always want stoeich/ lean as low load, bit rich on medium load and 11~12:1 at WOT. The problem is usually timing when turboing a car, you need to pull the timing as compressed air burns faster (same goes for an NA ecu used for a charged application). But oem maps are quite conservative at their ends, so it could do the trick.

A nistune only allows its user to modify everything the ECU previously stored in its eprom. It uses the same program.

[g35gabby]

Please also do not "think" when you actually dont know anything about what you are saying, thanks.


That is EXACTLY why I said THINK, as I did not KNOW. That is why we have a word for the two different situations...... as THINK and KNOW do not mean the same thing.

Thanks for informing me how to tune a car. I haven't been doing this since I was 10 and my family was building turbo Buicks. I have burned my own Eprom's in the past so I had not need to used Nistune as previously stated.

I wasn't telling him anything, but more of asking the question to make sure that he wasn't leaning out in the top end.

[Croustibat]

That is EXACTLY why I said THINK, as I did not KNOW. That is why we have a word for the two different situations...... as THINK and KNOW do not mean the same thing.

Thanks for informing me how to tune a car. I haven't been doing this since I was 10 and my family was building turbo Buicks. I have burned my own Eprom's in the past so I had not need to used Nistune as previously stated.

I wasn't telling him anything, but more of asking the question to make sure that he wasn't leaning out in the top end.

You were tuning turbo buicks ? And still have no clue about how engine management work ? What you describe is an alphaN engine management, and it does not work correctly with turbo/supercharged applications, hence why they use MAF / MAP management. You are supposed to know that if you tune that kind of engine...

The worst thing about it is that you dont even realize the implications of doing that. While it does not matter when talking about a TV show, we are talking time and money here. Giving advices based on your beliefs WILL lead to kill an engine someday. Are you prepared to pay for that ? Because when it happens, no matter how many "i think" you would have added to your sentences, it still is your fault, and some people may want to pay a visit to square things off.

So i am writing it again, if you dont know what you are talking about, DONT TRY TO GUESS.

Yes i am being harsh on purpose because you dont see what the problem is. Stick to what you know, learn more, but DONT GUESS.