bc valve springs with stock retainers? are stock good enough

[ilovmy13]

ive been searching for a while and i cant seem to find a correct clear answer. Are stock retainers good and strong enough when just upgrading the spring. I want to just get the springs and run it with the stock retainers. Ill be using these with hks 264 cams and redline highest will be at 8k.

[Tantwoforty]

You cant spend the $170 on retainers?
I mean it will probably be fine, but remember there's a reason there sold as a set most of the time

[jonsparrow]

well there sold as a set cause why wouldnt you replace them if your taking them off in the first place.

also you dont really NEED to replace your springs an retainers for hks 264 cams. the lift is not that high. anything bigger then that an you would definitely need springs an retainers.

[dopplganger1]

isn't titanium a softer metal than the stock retainers? and I've seen other people run stock retainers with bc springs

[ilovmy13]

Well i was thinking that since the springs are pretty cheap just by themselves, i would get 2 sets for my motors and and just not get retainers. I just wanted to see if anyone had any trouble with stock retainers failing when using aftermarket springs.

[fliprayzin240sx]

isn't titanium a softer metal than the stock retainers? and I've seen other people run stock retainers with bc springs

Titanium is the strongest metal out there...

[jonsparrow]

Titanium is the strongest metal out there...


lol ya there is nothing stronger then titanium. thats why is super expensive. the only thing stronger is animantium an thats only in comic books. (wolverine).

[Def]

isn't titanium a softer metal than the stock retainers? and I've seen other people run stock retainers with bc springs

The titanium alloy used in retainers (6AL-4V) is much softer than the "tool steel" or "spring steel" the retainers are made from.

Titanium is the strongest metal out there...

Most definitely not. It has a very high strength to density ratio in some alloys, but high strength steel is the strongest metal known to us now.



The problem with Ti retainers is the spring is much harder than the retainer itself, so it continually wears as the spring cycles. This isn't a huge problem for a track, drag, or drft car, but it is a problem for a car that sees a lot of street miles.



So to answer the OP, stiffer springs and stock retainers are fine as long as you're not trying to rev very high like near 9k RPM. The few grams of the retainer is not going to make that big of a difference.

[codyace]

ive been searching for a while and i cant seem to find a correct clear answer. Are stock retainers good and strong enough when just upgrading the spring. I want to just get the springs and run it with the stock retainers. Ill be using these with hks 264 cams and redline highest will be at 8k.

Why would you run BC springs on an HKS cam? Why not run the springs HKS makes and has used when developing their cam?

[S14DB]

Why would you run BC springs on an HKS cam? Why not run the springs HKS makes and has used when developing their cam?

Why would you run BC springs on anything?

[ilovmy13]

Thanks guys for all the info, i just wanted something better than stock, and bc is very affordable. Also about the hks springs while i was reading around i keep seeing comments about greddy and hks springs not being all to great. Now i don't know it personally for a fact but i just took it into consideration. And once again bc springs for 70 bucks just sounds very good, and the amount of positive comments i see about bc compared to negative comments makes it seem that bc stuff is good stuff.

[codyace]

Why would you run BC anything?

Well that's the truth.

:coolugh:

Thanks guys for all the info, i just wanted something better than stock, and bc is very affordable. Also about the hks springs while i was reading around i keep seeing comments about greddy and hks springs not being all to great. Now i don't know it personally for a fact but i just took it into consideration. And once again bc springs for 70 bucks just sounds very good, and the amount of positive comments i see about bc compared to negative comments makes it seem that bc stuff is good stuff.

Truthfully, why not just run JWT S3 cams, and not worry about any springs or retainers.

You need to look at 'reviews' with a grain of salt; that is, some people have nothing to compare stuff with and automatically think it's great. Others have experience, know how, and examples to base their review from.

If you are dead set on Springs, get 264 Step II HKS's and the HKS springs. Putting 70 dollar BC springs on a decent cam is like putting ketchup on a good steak.

[Def]

Why would you run BC springs on an HKS cam? Why not run the springs HKS makes and has used when developing their cam?

HKS SR springs are SOFTER than stock springs. Most of the JDM springs are pretty crappy and right around stock stiffness.

BC springs actually aren't that bad, although for a few bucks more I'd go with Manley springs just due to the brand.

[gotta240]

Why would you run BC springs on anything?



Why wouldn't you?

[ilovmy13]

Well that's the truth.

:coolugh:



Truthfully, why not just run JWT S3 cams, and not worry about any springs or retainers.

You need to look at 'reviews' with a grain of salt; that is, some people have nothing to compare stuff with and automatically think it's great. Others have experience, know how, and examples to base their review from.

If you are dead set on Springs, get 264 Step II HKS's and the HKS springs. Putting 70 dollar BC springs on a decent cam is like putting ketchup on a good steak.


Im getting a pretty good deal on the 264s. What springs do you run on your setup codyace.

[ilovmy13]

also upgrading the bc springs is just and insurance to me so i dont have to worry to much about valve float or rockers and shims flying off.

[codyace]

Im getting a pretty good deal on the 264s. What springs do you run on your setup codyace.

Stock Springs
On JWT S3's
8000 rpm
Stock HLA's

No issues, tons of miles, limiter crashing, good HP. Proof is in the pudding with the JWT valvetrain stuff, you'll spend a tiny bit more for the cams, but you save in the end without having to buy springs, or install them.

[codyace]

HKS SR springs are SOFTER than stock springs. Most of the JDM springs are pretty crappy and right around stock stiffness.

BC springs actually aren't that bad, although for a few bucks more I'd go with Manley springs just due to the brand.

In material or seat pressure? Just throwing seat pressure at a cam isn't the solution to anything. Again, if HKS (a reputable brand, much like JWT or Tomei) suggest to run their cam with their springs, I'd simply advise by it just as they were at least marketed/sold with each other. It's like sticking Comp 918's on a LSX...sure they 'may' work...sure they may look good...sure they are cheap...but be damned If I'd ever trust em.

[ilovmy13]

codyace would you theres anything wrong with the bc springs, that would make them not so great , or the reason why you wouldnt use them

[gotta240]

codyace would you theres anything wrong with the bc springs, that would make them not so great , or the reason why you wouldnt use them

What he said.....also.......aren't the S3 cams 264's also? Meaning, if you can run S3's all day, everyday without aftermarket springs, why would the BC 264's be any different.

Now....please dont get this confused with which cam is better or makes more power debate.....just asking about the springs and retainers with one 264 cam vs another 264 cam

[S14DB]

What he said.....also.......aren't the S3 cams 264's also? Meaning, if you can run S3's all day, everyday without aftermarket springs, why would the BC 264's be any different.

Now....please dont get this confused with which cam is better or makes more power debate.....just asking about the springs and retainers with one 264 cam vs another 264 cam

Lift.

264 is the duration which usually doesn't affect the valve springs. Lift and sometimes the ramp of the profile do.
If the lift is to great the spring can bottom out or bind because it doesn't have enough travel. Springs with less coils can give you a little more travel.
If the ramp on the profile is to aggressive for the stock springs the valves will float or bounce. Causing damage to the valves an possibly the pistons, head and other parts of the valve-train. Stiffer springs prevent this.

[gotta240]

Thanks for the great answer.

Above it was mentioned that titanium retainers can wear over time on a street driven car. Does this mean it would be BETTER to run stock retainers with BC springs on a daily driver?

[TheRealSy90]

I run JWT S4 cams on stock springs and retainers and lifters.

266 duration .464" lift.

Bang limiter all day and have never had a problem.

[gotta240]

The BCs are .475 lift. Should be just as safe JWT cams then, right? Only 1/100th of an inch more lift.

[idahotuner]

I use stock retainers on BC springs. Only reason to upgrade is for miscule gains in rpm with slightly lighter. Because of less mass

[codyace]

codyace would you theres anything wrong with the bc springs, that would make them not so great , or the reason why you wouldnt use them

Check S14db's post. Cam design goes so much beyond simple lift and duration numbers. Also, spring seat pressure (and material) go a long way. Throwing a ton of seat pressure is actually counter productive.

What he said.....also.......aren't the S3 cams 264's also? Meaning, if you can run S3's all day, everyday without aftermarket springs, why would the BC 264's be any different.

Now....please dont get this confused with which cam is better or makes more power debate.....just asking about the springs and retainers with one 264 cam vs another 264 cam

To add to S14db's post you need to consider many things, to include cam profiles, ramp rates etc etc. Also, when you see the duration of a cam (or a lift) you need to also see where companies measure them at. Domestic companies typically promote the same reading between all cams, were import cams (especially the JDM companies) do not...so a 264 duration HKS may not even have the same true duration as a 264 BC and so on, if they are not measured at the same .050 lift.

With that said there are also many other contributing factors to the mix...LSA, overlap, etc etc all make a huge difference...but these numbers are largely 'secret/unknown' amongst import cam companies (and be darned if BC even knows what they have in their own stuff)

The BCs are .475 lift. Should be just as safe JWT cams then, right? Only 1/100th of an inch more lift.

Again, pure lift or duration numbers are just the advertised numbers...to truly compare you need to see how they are measured. I wish more import based cam compaies did this, but it is what it is...if anything Import cam buying customers never even look beyond duration or lift as it's all they know...spend some time on a domestic forum and you'll really learn the true math magic behind a cam...it's overwhelming information to say the least.



I know some may write me off as the JWT fanboy, but if I have options at similar cost, why would anyone choose the inferior cam? I mean Sure the initial cost of JWT cams are high, but you don't need springs...so you save on the cost of springs, and the time of installing them as well...I'm not sure about you guys, but I value my own time, and If a better product is easier to install, why not go that way?

Cam math is such a imcomplete math it's not funny. Again, domestic forums (specifically LSX ones) are a fantastic place to read about cam math...it's not something you'll learn overnight.

[TheRealSy90]

Since when do you have to take off your springs and retainers to swap the cams out.

[codyace]

Since when do you have to take off your springs and retainers to swap the cams out.

:s101: :wiggle: I don't understand either.

[fatduece]

Stock Springs
On JWT S3's
8000 rpm
Stock HLA's

Stock HLA'S, are you talking about the updated version? Also if I were to go with your set up, should I at least replace the old springs with new oem springs? Just so that they are not as worn out and weak after all those miles.