Helpers springs and what are they for?

[Banana_Cute]

:confused:

Ok. Ive been looking through alot of threads and could not find 1 single thing about what the helper springs are for. Fortune Auto have em optional for their coilovers and as well as GAB. But PBM's, Stance, Megans, and other various company doesnt.

Question is. Why helper spring and whats the use of it? You have a fairly decent stiffness on the springs itself but wouldn't the "helper springs" delete the purpose of the stiffness since they're softer?

Inputs and if you guys have em on your coils atm?

[enkei2k]

The helper spring allows the shock piston to be placed in the optimal position within the shock body, increasing rebound stroke, and maximizing articulation on cars with minimum suspension travel.

source: Stance Helper Springs for Coilovers (sold as a Pair) (http://www.240sxmotoring.com/sthespforcos.html)

They aid in rebound stability through corners and over road imperfections. They also serve the additional function of keeping the main spring under proper preload.

source: http://www.tanabe-usa.com/s0c.asp?id=6

[Banana_Cute]

Yes but having Full adj coilovers and using the shock tube to lower the car. You dont really jeopardize any shortened shock travel, rebound stroke and suspension travel.

Maybe they're good use for "traditional threaded type" coilovers?

[ PR ] CUSCO (http://www.jdm-option.com/eng/pr_CUSCO/suspension.html)

Im really trying to understand every inch and aspect of suspension works.

[nismoman]

helper springs give you a progressive spring rate, that is why "They aid in rebound stability through corners and over road imperfections" . helps absorb smaller bumps and imperfections and since they are short the bigger spring takes over to control body roll and larger compressions.

[RedSiBaron]

so if i understand this correctly, its like advanced progressive spring rate control adapted for optimum dampener function? please correct me if im wrong, ive never been exposed to helper springs

EDIT: right when i posted it appeared under nismoman...guess he answered my question.

[Banana_Cute]

So can they be used aggressively on grip or drift? Or jst for weekend warrior type?

[codyace]

First at foremost, they are called tender springs, not helper springs. They help your suspension work properly, and keep your tires on the road (important on our cars especially)

So can they be used aggressively on grip or drift? Or jst for weekend warrior type?

Any car can benefit from a nice tender spring. It allows proper travel on a smaller car such as our 240sx, where travel may not go as fast. Ultimatly a track guy would/may find more use out of them, but if you're going to bomb down some back roads, it may not be a bad idea either.

helper springs give you a progressive spring rate, that is why "They aid in rebound stability through corners and over road imperfections" . helps absorb smaller bumps and imperfections and since they are short the bigger spring takes over to control body roll and larger compressions.

Tender springs do not give you any "progressive" type spring...unsure where you created that idea. THey simply allow the suspension to get full travel/droop. They are very light in total capacity (50 lbs or so), and once they 'block' the main spring simply acts normally. They don't make a 400 lb rear spring act any differently, or change it's rate at all. No offense, but if you don't know, don't post...this topic is commonly fubar'd on this forum as people with no experience post up crap and confuse everyone else who doesn't know.

[ManoNegra]

Swift Springs USA (http://www.swiftsprings.com/products-assist_springs.html)

sums it up pretty well.

[nismoman]

Cody maybe you need to read the link posted above. It says the exact same thing as I did. And that is a high quality spring maker.

[Sleepy_Steve]

For us they're more useful on the rear to keep the inside rear from lifting during turn in. I've got a couple on my car and they helped my car's handling out tremendously.

And progressive is where a single spring changes rate continuously as it compresses IIRC, which is very different than a 50-70 lb/in spring that is fully compressed when the chassis is at rest.

Once the assist crushes, the normal spring rate will take over.
The second job is the same as helper springs. They prevent the loss of traction during rebound, and extreme cornering.

[mikefc]

So would removing my helper springs fuck my shit up?

[codyace]

Cody maybe you need to read the link posted above. It says the exact same thing as I did. And that is a high quality spring maker.

A tender spring blocks when the slightest bit of force is put on it, then going to the main spring. So yes maybe in the napkin technical world it may 'change' it, but it's not like going from a 400 to a 450 lb spring by adding a 50 lb tender.

I've used these. I don't have any on my current setup as I bought longer main springs.

[codyace]

So would removing my helper springs fuck my shit up?

Not at all. You're going to have less travel when your suspension unloads, but if you're taking them out for what I assume is to go lower, yo'll be ok. You may here some noise once in a while if the spring somehow unseats itself, but for the most part it will be ok.

[codyace]

And progressive is where a single spring changes rate continuously as it compresses IIRC, which is very different than a 50-70 lb/in spring that is fully compressed when the chassis is at rest.

Ding ding! Exactly what I was trying to say by the spring being blocked not effecting anything in regard to the main spring.

[PoorMans180SX]

The springs on Fortune Coilovers that come with the Swift upgrade are indeed "assist" springs. So yes, they do add a progressive rate.

Read the link guys, then check out the pictures on Fortune's site. The coils are pictured with 4kg/mm assist springs. It even has a section below it explaining that they are indeed assist springs.

Everything Codyace is saying about helper springs is right though.

[dsastr_clan]

very good info on this thread, Do u guys think i can add some helper or tender springs to a set of powered by max coils?

[RedSiBaron]

Alright, so I got tired of reading because i was getting confused by all the different explanations, so I just called my father who built formula 2 cars in the 60s and 70s and race cars since the 50s...(im trying to set legitimacy of the source)

he said he's seen this idea used many times over the years, he's seen it done as a small spring paired with another larger one and he's seen it done as a spring inside a spring or even a smaller torsion bar inside a larger one on lotuses to achieve the same idea. He said it is used as a way to TUNE your progressive spring rate...the idea being is you can put another spring of a different rate that has short travel and is close to coil bind, it will absorb all the small bumps and uneven surfaces on the track to assist in absorbing all the small unsettling effects on the track and then when you go to enter a corner the smaller helper spring compresses and coil binds and allows the other spring which is then partially compressed to function as it would if the tender wasn't there...he also said that the tender will indeed add to the overall spring rate but as cody said, its not going to be 600lb+100lb=700lb. Think of it this way, because the a spring rate is based on how many pounds it takes to compress it, to compress the smaller tender spring you will be applying force to the main spring as well. And what the overall rate will be will depend on what rates you are working with...im sure there's an equation for it.

In a nutshell, tender springs are to help you adjust your progressive spring rate to absorb small bumps and imperfections to smooth out corner entry and vehicle stability (remember as the great Sir Jackie Stewart says, the more calm and smooth you drive a vehicle the more cotrolable it is)...if you were a serious racer, you'd probably have sets of different tender springs for different track surfaces.

You all don't have to believe me but im going with my father since I know his credentials and not yours, so this isn't to challenge anyone on their knowledge or their qualifications, im just trying to help with another source of information on what I think is an interesting topic

[Banana_Cute]

Now i understand.

So for me to apply tender/helper/assist spring. I have to purchase a "shorter" main spring?

Is that what im getting here. That the coilovers set WITH assist spring has a shorter main spring, as the one w/o?

[PoorMans180SX]

very good info on this thread, Do u guys think i can add some helper or tender springs to a set of powered by max coils?

Yes you can. The swift website lists the springs with rates and "dual spring kit". Buy the springs you want and that kit in the correct diameter and you're good. You should be able to get them from any swift dealer, check Import Image or Touge Factory.

[slider2828]

Seriously though, get some quality springs would be more worth it. Spring that come with pretty much all off the shelf sub 1500 dollar coilovers are straight junk. Heavy, stupid coil bind, stupid travel, and totally not linear.

Spend more moeny on getting a quality spring like Swift and you'll be much happier... Fortune, Megan, BC, whatever.... around that price range, their springs come from the same shitty factory. Just straight crap....

What everyone saying is right, but think about the investment, buy swift > hypercoils > eibach.....

Springs are measured inner diameter, and height in inchs.... they pretty come in 6 - 10" height, and ID's are 60, 65, 70 which is around 2.25, 2.50, and 2.75 inches....

I think for swift TF has a great sale on them someone told me...

[racepar1]

OK, too many people suck in here so I will clarify.

A helper spring has basically no spring rate and pretty much only keeps the springs seated when the suspension is unloaded (car in the air). Helper spring rates are so soft that they cannot really extend the shock past the main spring so there is no more useable droop added.

A tender spring does have some spring rate, but that will only really come into play under droop. At static ride heighth tender springs are blocked which has no progressive spring rate effect. A tender spring gives you more useable droop travel though since the spring rates are high enough to actually actively extend the shock.

There is a third type of spring which I refer to as a secondary spring. A secondary spring is not blocked at static ride heighth and does add a progressive spring rate. A lot of people still refer to these as tender springs, but IMO that is not correct.

This is the way that I made sense of all this spring non-sense. Really everyone throws around all these terms without even really knowing anything about them. Some people will argue about my "secondary spring" explanation and say that it's just a stiff tender spring, but no longer being blocked at ride heighth is where I draw the line as it makes sense to me. Basically all the springs available are tenders, helpers are uncommon, and progressive dual rate setups are also uncommon. I would reccomend rear tender springs to ANYONE with coilovers. It helps on the track bouncing over curbs and such, and prevents lifting wheels on both the track and the street.

[Mooch]

I don't know why you would ever associate Fortune Auto quality with brands like Megan, KSport, BC etc. Fortune Auto makes an amazing coil that they have put a lot of R&D into. Also, there ALMOST like a Stance coilover in the sense that they offer customers to be able to choose there standard springs or Swift springs. Companys that suck, don't offer this.

[Banana_Cute]

I don't know why you would ever associate Fortune Auto quality with brands like Megan, KSport, BC etc. Fortune Auto makes an amazing coil that they have put a lot of R&D into. Also, there ALMOST like a Stance coilover in the sense that they offer customers to be able to choose there standard springs or Swift springs. Companys that suck, don't offer this.

Am i being spoken to here since i started the discussion?

I didnt mean to compare Fortune let alone grade them as they were same as Megan and such. I was just using an example because i went through all the cites and didnt see any other company that really offer helper/tender/secondary spring except Fortune and GAB.

[slider2828]

I don't know why you would ever associate Fortune Auto quality with brands like Megan, KSport, BC etc. Fortune Auto makes an amazing coil that they have put a lot of R&D into. Also, there ALMOST like a Stance coilover in the sense that they offer customers to be able to choose there standard springs or Swift springs. Companys that suck, don't offer this.

You must be smoking crack that they make their own tubes, own springs, own hats etc. They all come out of taiwan period. You can get swift any where and its a stupid argument that a company is good if you can get them with swift springs. What probably makes a difference is the valving between all the different companies, but quality is all the same shit unless you go Moton, KW, DG5, etc, where they make all of their own components and assemble it themselves.

Either way, springs that come up most off the market coilovers are junk. So I dunno where you coming across me comparing that actual damper, instead I was talking about the springs themselves.

I was also stating that thinking of getting helper springs before getting a good pair of springs is a moot point as just throwing cover over crap and hoping it would make a huge difference especially when there is a seemingly a lot of people who read threads with various backgrounds.

But I think Def hit it right on head as well about the difference between tender and helper springs though. But I may add it ALL depends on the stiffness you get that spring at. I know you can get anywhere from a 2kg/mm to a 6kg/mm helper/tender spring. It all depends.

[badicalradical]

Went looking for some good installed picture to show and came across this quote from Whiteline on the same subject on a Subaru forum. This is exactly what's told to me by KW years ago when I was asked by a customer.

"Helper springs are designed to completely compress at normal ride height, and used to maintain load on the main spring at full travel. Once the helper spring is closed it is inactive.

Tender springs are part of a dual rate spring system. The tender spring is open at normal load, and therefore it is still active, and closes at a predetermined load."

Here's a more detailed info he posted later to elaborate.

"Tender vs Helper springs

Helper and tender springs are both made from a flat wire spring that are designed to completely compress. In Whiteline's view, the difference is mainly in the application of the spring and at what point they close in the chosen application. This is obviously dependant on spring load, where a helper spring is generally known to close BEFORE normal load is applied, and a tender spring is generally known to close AFTER normal load is applied.

So, a helper spring in one application may be used as a tender spring
in another application. For the same application, a helper spring generally will be softer than a tender spring.

Whiteline uses helper springs for a number of reasons.

- Simplicity. In a tender spring system, the specifications of both main spring and tender springs are absolutely critical for the system to work properly.

- Noise. In a helper spring system, as the helper is closed at normal ride height, there is minimal spring noise. In a tender spring system, the tender is designed to close during suspension compression potentially creating noise.

- Spring rate tuning. In a helper spring system, it is very easy to change springs for tuning purposes. In a tender spring system it is a much more complicated process, and will require both new main and tender springs.

- Vehicle corner weight tuning. In a helper spring system, adjusting
the height of the spring platform directly effects the height of the main
spring. In a tender spring system, platform adjustment compresses the
tender spring and main spring at the same time.

We believe that using the term "spring pre-load" is a bit of a misnomer
and misleading. Its important to note that changing the height of the
spring platform does effect the spring load at full droop, but when the
car is on the ground (suspension loaded) the total spring load for all
4 springs is the same, it cannot change. The spring rate remains the
same, it too cannot change. The only thing that can change is the ride height.

Regards,
Wojtek.. "-Whiteline

Cant find my old email from Tom @ KW

Helper
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/badicalradical/springs/6_606968.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/badicalradical/springs/images.jpg

Extreme example of a tender spring
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/badicalradical/springs/imagesryj.jpg

First photos I saw.

[badicalradical]

Swift Springs USA (http://www.swiftsprings.com/products-assist_springs.html)

sums it up pretty well.

Just saw the link. Nice and simply explained.