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codyace
04-17-2010, 04:48 PM
JWT vs Enthalpy ECU comparison dyno results!! Another 400 whp CodyAce Built Car

Finally managed to get my buddies car on the dyno today. While we were
interested in the power it made, we also both finally wanted to see a direct comparison between the two major ECU Rom Tuners that support our SR20 cars, Jim Wolf Technolgy and RS Enthalpy. We have been running the car on both without ANY issue. Both get great MPG, both the tires off in 2nd gear, and both function just as OEM. Dont get me wrong, Standalones are cool and functional, but at the end of the day this is a Street Car -- and gets street parts.

Now before this turns into a mud slinging contest, it is not what I set this out to be. Enthalpy and JWT are BOTH top notch tuners, and both are two excellent sources for out of the box, turn key tunes that make kickass power while remaining livable and economical. I would hesistate for a MOMENT to suggest either of them, as I personally have had great results with both companies.

VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMuyXATr0Cc

Log and Run files (Thank you SoapGun!) http://driftwolrd.com/r/dynoandlogfiles.zip

Car Specs:
HP: 403 WHP
Torque: 323 Ft Lbs

Engine Specs:
SR20DET, 8.5:1 Compression, 86mm (stock bore/compression)
Built bottom end with CP Pistons, Stock Rods, Built by Cody Ace)
GT2871r .64 (T2 exhaust housing)
Jim Wolf Technology S3 Cams
Jim Wolf Technology ECU
Freddy Intake Manifold
Extrude Hone and Swained Exhaust Manifold, and Turbo
External Wastegate
3" exhaust
3" Inlet with Z32 MAF
72lb MSD's
(and all other associated parts)
Traps 120mph as well

I backed the car on, I got the computer ready to log, and we unlocked the brake. Ran the Enthalpy ECU at 10 psi, and then at 20 psi. Turned it off. Changed ECU's. And ran it again. Same conditions. The results are close, but it's evident that in this particular case the JWT ecu wins. Dyno RUn Files available upon PM, as well as Log Files from Datascan.

Results:

20psi
AFR: 11.8 to 12.0
Enthalpy: 381 HP / 310 Ft lbs
JWT: 400 HP/323 ft lbs

10psi:
AFR: 12.5ish for both
Enthalpy: 274 HP / 220 ft lbs
JWT: 279 HP/223 ft lbs

It's evident that at 10 psi, the differences are negligable, probably credited to the dyno itself. The results remain the same across all correction factors as well, but we like uncorrected to give a base number. STD showed the highest figures.

At 20 psi however, we were really surprised. The JWT ECU made nearly 20 more hp peak, and had a stronger powerband throughot. We were VERY happy with this. It's a damn near copy of my s14's setup (minus a few parts) and (go figure) the car makes similar power.

Graphs:
10 psi run on top, 20 psi run on bottom (Enthalpy Blue, JWT Red)

10psi
http://www.codyace.com/albums/mattdyno/matt10psi.jpg

20psi
http://www.codyace.com/albums/mattdyno/matt20psi.jpg



"Not bad" for a Junkyard Car

I'm not sure about you guys, but this car certainly doesn't look like its' got anymore than abotu 100 whp lol. I love it.

http://www.codyace.com/albums/album281/matt032010_26.sized.jpg




All in all, it was a nice day...one, because yet again I've got a 2871r car that I built at 400 whp level, and secondly, we finally got to test both of our ECU's out to see which one worked best right out of the box. Now with this said, I would love to send Martin and Clark the log files respectively to get a 'net reflash' to compare them again, as it would be interesting to see what there is 'left' in both tunes. We all can agree that an off the shelf tune from either is going to be conservative, just for safety sake...nobody wants the reputation of making HP, but melting pistons ya know?

FWIW: JWT S3 cams are the single best cams you can buy for T2/stock manifold cars. Most power, best graphs, and cheapest (as you don't need valvesprings). I don't care what anyone says, until I get a car that dynos differently, I'm going to stick by my guns.


As before, Dyno Run files and NissanDataScan Run files available via PM.

rican_nick
04-17-2010, 05:18 PM
Good work man.

I also love my S3's.. I'm running a 50trim t3/to4e.. havent had it on the dyno but the diff before and after the cams felt noticeable on the butt dyno

jspaeth
04-17-2010, 05:27 PM
I am really interested to see what a better car can due to my car Cody.

My torque curve is beautiful, and similar in shape, but I only make like 285-290 ft-lbs of torque...same shape though.

Steve has looked at my timing map and says there is much room for improvement.

Furthermore, my AFR under full boost is 10.0-10.5!!!!!!!!!!

That has GOT to be hurting me, right?


Results are very nice!


Was the Enthalpy tune made with before-the-fact knowledge that there would be JWT S3 cams in the car? I would hope so, as that would make the comparison the most fair............

codyace
04-17-2010, 06:18 PM
Furthermore, my AFR under full boost is 10.0-10.5!!!!!!!!!!

That is very rich. Usually moving a 10.5 car up to the 11.5 range will net in good torque gains, and probably 15 hp.



Was the Enthalpy tune made with before-the-fact knowledge that there would be JWT S3 cams in the car? I would hope so, as that would make the comparison the most fair............

The Enthalpy ECU was actually tuned for the car, and the cams

The JWT ECU has not received the cam program yet -- however the JWT 'cam program' is typically for idle stabilization for cars that need it. With his light flywheel and the cams, it will be ordered soon

negrosx13
04-17-2010, 07:34 PM
very interesting knowledge about these 2 programs...good shit man!!!

lflkajfj12123
04-17-2010, 08:08 PM
very cool

i can host those files for you if you want

these cars must be a blast to drive

mattsil80wis
04-18-2010, 06:33 AM
very cool

i can host those files for you if you want

these cars must be a blast to drive

the 240 pictured is mine

they are def a blast to drive especially when 636's cant get away from you haha

EDIT: here is the video from the dyno

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMuyXATr0Cc

4x4le
04-18-2010, 09:57 AM
Smoothing on 5? I hate that so bad when comparisons or check out my tune threads have the dyno graph smoothed out the ass. However I am very pleased to hear you hit 400whp with a .64 2871r! Once again, very do able to all the people that stand against that.

Now, back to the smoothing....... Look how rough the jwt tune is compared to the Enthalpy tune. Those dips at near and right before the peak tq area are not good. The Enthalpy tune does not have that, not to mention that the enthaply tune beats the jwt tune out at 10psi even without the shakey-ness. Where you peaked on the jwt tune at 10 psi is in the area where the spark was not reconised and it caused an error condition on the dyno, you see where the breaks are on the graph? That could have been blow out or a miss fire. Probably fault of the car, not the tune.

The jwt tune starts looking great at about 5300 rpms at 20psi and about 6300rpm at 10 psi.

If I were you I would take the Enthalpy tune and compliment it with the timing values of the jwt tune in the areas that it beats it out up high. The 20psi run on the jwt ecu really impresses me because before I got into tuning I had blown an sr up on a jwt tune and it didnt look any where near that good on a .86 2871r and a very similar sr setup. It does not look like they have improved much on their lower psi tune though.

All in all, these are much better results than I expected to see from either of these tuners considering neither of them have actually ever seen your car. I am most impressed with the Enthalpy because it is so smooth I would believe that someone did a custom tune on your car if you were to have not disclosed that it was a commercial tune. It is apparent how much safer that tune is for your engine as well.

Thumbs up for doing this!

codyace
04-18-2010, 02:35 PM
Smoothing on 5? I hate that so bad when comparisons or check out my tune threads have the dyno graph smoothed out the ass. However I am very pleased to hear you hit 400whp with a .64 2871r! Once again, very do able to all the people that stand against that.

Smoothing at zero for you (5 is default, I hate 0 for doing quick comparisons at at 0 you can 'jumps' that can produce false higher HP numbers. I've dynoed over 200 cars, and 5 seems to be consistant.

http://www.codyace.com/albums/mattdyno/smoothing0.jpg


Now, back to the smoothing....... Look how rough the jwt tune is compared to the Enthalpy tune. Those dips at near and right before the peak tq area are not good. The Enthalpy tune does not have that,

Care to circle what you mean here? I don't mean to sound dumb here, but I really am unsure what you see here (aka: I'd liek to learn) IMO some of the 'fluttery-ness' is due to the wastgate, not the tune. You should see big power Supra graphs...combined with what you can hear is amazing with the gate opening/closing.

not to mention that the enthaply tune beats the jwt tune out at 10psi even without the shakey-ness. Where you peaked on the jwt tune at 10 psi is in the area where the spark was not reconised and it caused an error condition on the dyno, you see where the breaks are on the graph? That could have been blow out or a miss fire. Probably fault of the car, not the tune.

Again, the difference at 10 psi IMO is related to the dyno, and not the tune at all. I can change correction factors to show you this (I can email you the run files, you just need Winpep7 which is free). I can also send you the 5 dyno day's we've run to compare across 3 power pulls. Anything in the 5hp range of difference is 9/10 the dyno itself, not so much the car.

Lets also not forget the differences in where I started the pull (1000 rpm difference, I forgot)...this can easily effect the 'low end' as youv'e got the turbo lit already. You should see me stab turbo hondas at 2k...it's amazing to see how crappy they are under Vtec...gross! I guess it's part of the game though right?

(And yes, I know about the spark pickup issue, unsure what that occured on the run...I just looked over all of my graphs and other sr20 and never saw it. Musta been a fluke)



If I were you I would take the Enthalpy tune and compliment it with the timing values of the jwt tune in the areas that it beats it out up high. The 20psi run on the jwt ecu really impresses me because before I got into tuning I had blown an sr up on a jwt tune and it didnt look any where near that good on a .86 2871r and a very similar sr setup. It does not look like they have improved much on their lower psi tune though.

All in all, these are much better results than I expected to see from either of these tuners considering neither of them have actually ever seen your car. I am most impressed with the Enthalpy because it is so smooth I would believe that someone did a custom tune on your car if you were to have not disclosed that it was a commercial tune. It is apparent how much safer that tune is for your engine as well.

Thumbs up for doing this!

As copied form another forum

"In the end of the day, both Enthalpy and JWT are fantastic companies. My point was not so much to show the difference (as I never would have epected such a difference at 20psi) but to show how close they really are in regard to tunes. I love the fact that these two companies support our community with bad ass parts for the 'street crew'."

Also remember that these cars are not 'tuned' for any specific PSI -they are MAF cars, so both are going to scale according to airflow. I always tell others to 'tell JWT/Enthalpy to 'tune' at highest boost' as the rest just falls into place.

I just am shocked at how close they really are. Again I need to get my ass in gear and get new chips for both and test them again, should be bad ass!

codyace
04-18-2010, 02:36 PM
JWT VIDEO: YouTube - 4-17-10 matt 240sx sr20 gt2871rs powered dyno (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMuyXATr0Cc)

4x4le
04-18-2010, 05:28 PM
Im posting from my phone so i cant address everything but thanks for posting that with 0 smoothing. To me it really made the jwt look better than it did on 5

HemiCharger
04-18-2010, 05:37 PM
add an Apexi Power FC to this and check the results again?

spooled240
04-18-2010, 06:01 PM
nice! I have a JWT ecu for my ka-t and it's been fantastic for the past 3 years of daily driving, I have absolutely no problems and I get pretty good mileage..i'd say the same as stock if not better

jspaeth
04-18-2010, 06:41 PM
add an Apexi Power FC to this and check the results again?


This wouldn't really provide any insight....

This a power-pull, so all that matters is effective timing and injector on-times, so you could set up a PowerFC to give the same results as either of the above by just using the same timing and fuel maps.

One of the benefits (IIRC) of these ROM tunes over PFC is that you can explicitly control some of the IACV stuff that you cannot with the PFC....makes a big difference on getting a smooth stable idle if you have big-ish cams.....

codyace
04-18-2010, 08:22 PM
Im posting from my phone so i cant address everything but thanks for posting that with 0 smoothing. To me it really made the jwt look better than it did on 5

Hehe, I can understand 100% the phone issue. Someday those companies will get a hang of the forum world right hehe. I've almost given up posting from my phone, may as well send it snail mail hehe.


add an Apexi Power FC to this and check the results again?

Could it make more power? Sure - but not because of the Power FC, more because of the tune.

FWIW: I've yet to see a FC car with this turbo making this sort of power (now on another build altogether).

Don't get me wrong, PFC is a nice tool, and great for those that want to tune themselves/fiddle with their car...but I'll stick to ROM tunes from either JWT or Enthalpy for street cars. You simply can't beat them in regard to price, performance, and drivability.

nice! I have a JWT ecu for my ka-t and it's been fantastic for the past 3 years of daily driving, I have absolutely no problems and I get pretty good mileage..i'd say the same as stock if not better

Awesome to hear man! I'm a Wolf guy through and through, but as before, the cars I've dealt with that have had Secret Service/Enthalpy ECU's drive/work/perform equally well. I'd go as far as to say that you can't go wrong either :D




I'll be PM'ing 'SoapGun' here in a second to host the Log and Run files :D

HemiCharger
04-18-2010, 08:41 PM
True on the idle issue and I would have gone JWT had I not found a Power FC for like 800 bucks delivered. I think now they run in the 1200-1300 dollar range. I have never had any problems with it so far. I can get around 25 mpg and have it tuned conservatively for 400 crank horse power. I just wish the sr transmission was as good as the engines then they would be the BOMB even more.

Oh yeah and the wand monitors all kinds of cool stuff like air flow, knock, rpm speed etc and etc a nice tool to have when running hard.

jspaeth
04-18-2010, 08:42 PM
FWIW: I've yet to see a FC car with this turbo making this sort of power (now on another build altogether).

Don't get me wrong, PFC is a nice tool, and great for those that want to tune themselves/fiddle with their car...but I'll stick to ROM tunes from either JWT or Enthalpy for street cars. You simply can't beat them in regard to price, performance, and drivability.


To be fair, though, Cody, can you find another PFC user with the same setup (same cams, extrude honed/swained mani and turbine housing)?

Clearly, the standalone can do anything (and more) than the ROM tune can do, if put in the right hands.

You could literally put the Enthalpy or JWT tune onto the PFC and see the same results.

Plus you have the added benefit of being able to fine tune even further upon making small modifications, or changes in temperature, or etc etc etc.

Needless to say, I think the biggest difference in why all of your cars put down that extra 20-30 ft-lbs between 4500-7000 and the resulting increase in horsepower is due to

1) The swaining/extrude honing
2) Having a tune done by an expert with a LOT of research done into the timing/fuel for this particular setup.

I am making a similar torque curve as these cars, minus about 20-30 ft-lbs across the board.

I believe this is because:

1) Need better boost control to hold boost up top
2) Timing is NOWHERE near optimized (tuner didn't do ANY steady-state timing optimization)
3) AFRs once in boost are VERY rich (10-10.5).


I am not saying it is EASY or CHEAP to have that setup, but I just don't think that the "big secret" is in the ROM tune.

That ROM tune surely has seen multiple iterations (at least on your car) of datalogging and refinement to get a timing/fuel map that works so well with your cams/setup

lflkajfj12123
04-18-2010, 09:09 PM
CodyAce Dyno Run and NissanDataScan Run Files - Click Here for direct download! (http://driftwolrd.com/r/dynoandlogfiles.zip)

codyace
04-18-2010, 09:25 PM
True on the idle issue and I would have gone JWT had I not found a Power FC for like 800 bucks delivered. I think now they run in the 1200-1300 dollar range. I have never had any problems with it so far. I can get around 25 mpg and have it tuned conservatively for 400 crank horse power. I just wish the sr transmission was as good as the engines then they would be the BOMB even more.

That's a good deal for sure, but remember we're all making 400 to the rear tire :D That's a big difference for sure.

And I can totally hear ya - I too wish the transmissions were better. Not so bad for daily/street driving, but even on track cars it's very hard on them.



To be fair, though, Cody, can you find another PFC user with the same setup (same cams, extrude honed/swained mani and turbine housing)?

For sure, and this was probably me jumping the gun a bit. In the same regard though, I doubt we'll see many as those who are content with sub 400 hp cars (like me) are often easily fans of the ROM tunes as they work.

You can bet however that if I was building big HP car, I'd have a standalone of sorts (and would have forced myself to learn how to tune it)



Needless to say, I think the biggest difference in why all of your cars put down that extra 20-30 ft-lbs between 4500-7000 and the resulting increase in horsepower is due to

1) The swaining/extrude honing
2) Having a tune done by an expert with a LOT of research done into the timing/fuel for this particular setup.

I am making a similar torque curve as these cars, minus about 20-30 ft-lbs across the board.

I'll agree to that as well, but I also like to think that the Cams are another major reason for this. A tubular manifold car (which most 2871r guys use) should easily make more Peak HP simply due to manifold design (when compared to the stock setup) but even they aren't seeing the power they should.

And in regard to a professional, remember the JWT isn't a reflash, and the Enthalpy simply has a cam program added. I wouldn't say these are any different than what anyone else can buy.

I also do not build these motors loose - I want them to last. If it was an Enduro car I could care less, not a car that needs to be daily reliable (heck he's got nearly 8k on the motor already, i have 20k)



I am not saying it is EASY or CHEAP to have that setup, but I just don't think that the "big secret" is in the ROM tune.

I agree, but my main objective was to present to the 240 world, how 'well tuned' these ROM setups are in this day and age, and how they will work great for 90% of the cars out there. Nothing boggles my mind more than kids still using SAFC with their DET computers ya know? Heck used JWT/Enthalpy ECU go for 300 bucks...it's a steal!


That ROM tune surely has seen multiple iterations (at least on your car) of datalogging and refinement to get a timing/fuel map that works so well with your cams/setup

To a point: My car is only on tis' 2nd retune...it made the same power, but gained 15 ft lbs with the retune (and also gained the cam program) His JWT ECU is on the initial/base setup.

(I will be getting the chips soon for a 'meth map' hopefully can increase the boost a bit :D)


My main objective of this was to show that with the right parts (nothing exotic) that good solid power can be made with either ECU -- that's it.

codyace
04-18-2010, 09:32 PM
CodyAce Dyno Run and NissanDataScan Run Files - Click Here for direct download! (http://driftwolrd.com/r/dynoandlogfiles.zip)

Thank you sir!

HemiCharger
04-18-2010, 09:49 PM
It is your setup and what you like but I can tell you have had my swap now for 50 thousand miles and have been running 18.5 lbs of boost with my Power FC for almost 2 years now and I burn no oil nor use any coolant. The power FC is what they would use on the car in Japan at a specialty tuner shop. It can be street tuned unlike a canned tune. You will never be able to get all that there is out of your setup with them no matter what cause they are limited in that regards.

Oh and 400 crank horsepower in our cars is more than enough to smoke crotch rockets...

4x4le
04-19-2010, 10:25 AM
Ah, the phone thing, well I really just didnt have the time at that moment and thats why I was on the phone and not the computer. Tapatalk is great and thats what I normally would have used but I was just on the web real quick on my phone killing a few minutes. I didnt plan on posting.




Oh and 400 crank horsepower in our cars is more than enough to smoke crotch rockets...

No, at least not the guys I know with them. I have hung with some of the slower 600s but they are usually still faster.

OBEEWON
04-19-2010, 10:32 AM
Good work Cody.

You want to tune my RB, and use it for an A/C bracket guinea pig??

j20accord00
04-19-2010, 10:52 AM
yeah i agree that is great work. Cody is a cool guy, I bought a throw out bearing off him a few months ago! Thanks again..

and i too like the "junk yard 100hp " look on the s13. Where is he located in Jersey?

I gotta get out to some meets and see these cars in person!

HemiCharger
04-19-2010, 01:30 PM
Ah, the phone thing, well I really just didnt have the time at that moment and thats why I was on the phone and not the computer. Tapatalk is great and thats what I normally would have used but I was just on the web real quick on my phone killing a few minutes. I didnt plan on posting.




No, at least not the guys I know with them. I have hung with some of the slower 600s but they are usually still faster.

Then I guess I would just have to forget about the Triumph Daytona or GSX750 I smoked. They pull hard but I broke away with like 3 cars on the GSXR and he could not over take me -- I was having spark blow out at the time with .044 gaped plugs which I have since fixed. Gaped to .028.... which is what they need. My car might be different though. I make mad mid range torque and horsepower. I have a cammed s14 motor with a GT2871R and I kept VTC so my midrange at 3000 rpm is at least 100 hp more than a normal SR s13 motor. My tuner over laid the graphs when we tuned it. I make around 80-100 whp more than a comparable s13 motor up till I reach peak where they end up the same. I think the mid range matters a lot?

mattsil80wis
04-19-2010, 02:20 PM
yeah i agree that is great work. Cody is a cool guy, I bought a throw out bearing off him a few months ago! Thanks again..

and i too like the "junk yard 100hp " look on the s13. Where is he located in Jersey?

I gotta get out to some meets and see these cars in person!


sorry i didnt answer before

i live in hackensack nj but currently i live in stroudsburg pa with cody

if you wanna make a trip tonight to see the cars there is a local meet by us
PM me for details

jspaeth
04-19-2010, 03:16 PM
Then I guess I would just have to forget about the Triumph Daytona or GSX750 I smoked. They pull hard but I broke away with like 3 cars on the GSXR and he could not over take me -- I was having spark blow out at the time with .044 gaped plugs which I have since fixed. Gaped to .028.... which is what they need. My car might be different though. I make mad mid range torque and horsepower. I have a cammed s14 motor with a GT2871R and I kept VTC so my midrange at 3000 rpm is at least 100 hp more than a normal SR s13 motor. My tuner over laid the graphs when we tuned it. I make around 80-100 whp more than a comparable s13 motor up till I reach peak where they end up the same. I think the mid range matters a lot?

i've said it once, i'll say it again:

GAPPED = spark plugs

GAPED = butt plugs

HemiCharger
04-19-2010, 03:20 PM
i've said it once, i'll say it again:

GAPPED = spark plugs

GAPED = butt plugs

alright then GAPPED.....

jspaeth
04-19-2010, 03:26 PM
Then I guess I would just have to forget about the Triumph Daytona or GSX750 I smoked. They pull hard but I broke away with like 3 cars on the GSXR and he could not over take me -- I was having spark blow out at the time with .044 gaped plugs which I have since fixed. Gaped to .028.... which is what they need. My car might be different though. I make mad mid range torque and horsepower. I have a cammed s14 motor with a GT2871R and I kept VTC so my midrange at 3000 rpm is at least 100 hp more than a normal SR s13 motor. My tuner over laid the graphs when we tuned it. I make around 80-100 whp more than a comparable s13 motor up till I reach peak where they end up the same. I think the mid range matters a lot?

you have a "cammed" S14 motor, but kept VTC...what does that mean?

You have aftermarket VTC cams? Who even makes them? (I have never heard of it, that's why I ask)

HemiCharger
04-19-2010, 03:56 PM
you have a "cammed" S14 motor, but kept VTC...what does that mean?

You have aftermarket VTC cams? Who even makes them? (I have never heard of it, that's why I ask)

Greddy Easycams

Greddy - Founded and Driven by Racers (http://www.greddy.com/products/display/?Category=engine&SubCategory=40)

I keep the VTC on the intake cam and it makes for some extra mid range punch. Lower duration than most other aftermarket cams so you do not get the top end of the other aftermarket cams but they are nice and no after market valve train is needed. I made 334whp/311TQ on them and I like em a lot.

2fast4y0u
04-19-2010, 08:37 PM
i have the same setup...basically, and im waiting to get to the dyno. im using an enthalpy tune and i couldnt be happier with it so far. i have 300 miles on it some far, did 90 miles the other day with my brother and his m3. I have heard great things about JWT and have used them for misc. things awhile back.


Greddy Easycams

Greddy - Founded and Driven by Racers (http://www.greddy.com/products/display/?Category=engine&SubCategory=40)

I keep the VTC on the intake cam and it makes for some extra mid range punch. Lower duration than most other aftermarket cams so you do not get the top end of the other aftermarket cams but they are nice and no after market valve train is needed. I made 334whp/311TQ on them and I like em a lot.

you are smoking a gsxr750 with 334 whp? or is that what you HAD and now you have more? my cousin has a gsxr750 and he is doing 10.4 in the 1/4...its fucking fast! he has slips to prove it.

HemiCharger
04-19-2010, 10:46 PM
i have the same setup...basically, and im waiting to get to the dyno. im using an enthalpy tune and i couldnt be happier with it so far. i have 300 miles on it some far, did 90 miles the other day with my brother and his m3. I have heard great things about JWT and have used them for misc. things awhile back.




you are smoking a gsxr750 with 334 whp? or is that what you HAD and now you have more? my cousin has a gsxr750 and he is doing 10.4 in the 1/4...its fucking fast! he has slips to prove it.


I do not know could have been a 600 not sure. I know crotch rockets are fast but once you break loose and are within a half sec or so of the car or bike you are running it is really hard for them to pull on you. Look at the torque number I am within 10-12 of cody's 400 whp run. That is pretty good IMO. I guess I do have a little more cause that is what it pulled before as a base line -- I have guessed my car to be a 11 sec car could be high or low depending on driver.

yabeet
04-19-2010, 11:08 PM
I have a Power FC, in May I will be dyno tuning to roughly 15 psi.

Using stock bottom end, GT2871 .64, JWT S3 cams, stock intake mani [for now] no VCT. Tomei mani and elbow, 3" exh. Only problem is, Calgary is at 3500ft and air density changes rapidly throughout the week.

This thread is excellent btw good job!

GabeS14
04-19-2010, 11:54 PM
Then I guess I would just have to forget about the Triumph Daytona or GSX750 I smoked. They pull hard but I broke away with like 3 cars on the GSXR and he could not over take me -- I was having spark blow out at the time with .044 gaped plugs which I have since fixed. Gaped to .028.... which is what they need. My car might be different though. I make mad mid range torque and horsepower. I have a cammed s14 motor with a GT2871R and I kept VTC so my midrange at 3000 rpm is at least 100 hp more than a normal SR s13 motor. My tuner over laid the graphs when we tuned it. I make around 80-100 whp more than a comparable s13 motor up till I reach peak where they end up the same. I think the mid range matters a lot?
I think the biker either wasnt really racing you or he didnt know how to ride, because i will guarantee you that you need about 450 hp to beat a 600-750 bike, and about 600 to play with a 1000 cc bike. Thats if the biker is experiened of course
Also
I dont understand how your motor makes 100hp more than a comparable
S13 motor if you said earlier you have an s14 motor, do you mean a comparable s14 motor with different cams?

codyace
04-20-2010, 12:01 AM
It is your setup and what you like but I can tell you have had my swap now for 50 thousand miles and have been running 18.5 lbs of boost with my Power FC for almost 2 years now and I burn no oil nor use any coolant. The power FC is what they would use on the car in Japan at a specialty tuner shop. It can be street tuned unlike a canned tune. You will never be able to get all that there is out of your setup with them no matter what cause they are limited in that regards.

I'm not disagreeing that a PFC isn't good - I just think that for a car under 400 hp, this side of a track race fuel car, that a Enthalpy or JWT ROM tune will net as much average and peak power/torque than any off 'custom tune'. (If that makes any sense). You have a PFC = Great...this thraed is just a representation of what a nice, 500 dollar off the shelf tune can produce...versus a 1000+ setup.

Awesome on the milage too. I also do 4-5 track (HPDE/timed) events all summer, so take that into consideration. They always say 1 mile on track is equivilent to nearly 5 of street driving, so I'd like to think to continue making the power I do, and to not have any oil issues or anything, that it's pretty good for a rom tune.


No, at least not the guys I know with them. I have hung with some of the slower 600s but they are usually still faster.

It also comes down to gearing/speed as well. Also how good of a rider you're verse. To catch a big from a low (10ish hit) it's going to take a solid 450 whp to keep up. Catch them mid range and it's good fun.


Good work Cody.
You want to tune my RB, and use it for an A/C bracket guinea pig??

LOL I'm scared of RB's! They just don't like American air hehe. Everyone that's come to our dyno day has had issues hehe.

(Have you checked Evans TUning, or RT??)


Then I guess I would just have to forget about the Triumph Daytona or GSX750 I smoked. They pull hard but I broke away with like 3 cars on the GSXR and he could not over take me

Sure it wasn't a Carb'd 750? Sounds like a rider issue.



-- I was having spark blow out at the time with .044 gaped plugs which I have since fixed. Gaped to .028.... which is what they need. My car might be different though. I make mad mid range torque and horsepower. I have a cammed s14 motor with a GT2871R and I kept VTC so my midrange at 3000 rpm is at least 100 hp more than a normal SR s13 motor. My tuner over laid the graphs when we tuned it. I make around 80-100 whp more than a comparable s13 motor up till I reach peak where they end up the same. I think the mid range matters a lot?

100 more hp at 3000 rpm is a nice claim, but I'd love to see it. FWIW: These ROM cars that I help build usually make double what a stock turbo car does at that idle...even still though it's not a place where I'd put to much focus on in regard to power for our setups...with a good final drive you're hardly ever below 3000 as it is.

I like .022 to .025 for gap. Never had an issue, good power, 30mpg+ highway.


I am within 10-12 of cody's 400 whp run. That is pretty good IMO. I guess I do have a little more cause that is what it pulled before as a base line -- I have guessed my car to be a 11 sec car could be high or low depending on driver.

Got any graphs?

PS: A 400 hp car at our light weight should be a 11.0 car with a good 60. I went 11.65 @ 120 my first time out, with a crappy 1.88 60'. I also didn't touch my suspension settings or alignment from the HPDE day, so that wasn't helping either. Not bad considering I can't drag race. With more practice and a launch program I'm sure it would run a nice deep 11. BUT I could care less...these are response oriented cars, for road course days :D


Again, lets keep focus on the point: Badass ROM tunes are available for our cars....at an affordable price. For a ture 'bolt on -do burnouts' solution, I can't be happier.

2fast4y0u
04-20-2010, 09:51 AM
Again, lets keep focus on the point: Badass ROM tunes are available for our cars....at an affordable price. For a ture 'bolt on -do burnouts' solution, I can't be happier.

i hear that! nothing like smoking the shit out of the tires pretty much when ever.
if i could only get my clutch to hold better :)

i cant wait to see what i run this year at the track. im going may 29th to the drag strip. should be interesting

mattsil80wis
04-21-2010, 11:43 AM
Then I guess I would just have to forget about the Triumph Daytona or GSX750 I smoked. They pull hard but I broke away with like 3 cars on the GSXR and he could not over take me -- I was having spark blow out at the time with .044 gaped plugs which I have since fixed. Gaped to .028.... which is what they need. My car might be different though. I make mad mid range torque and horsepower. I have a cammed s14 motor with a GT2871R and I kept VTC so my midrange at 3000 rpm is at least 100 hp more than a normal SR s13 motor. My tuner over laid the graphs when we tuned it. I make around 80-100 whp more than a comparable s13 motor up till I reach peak where they end up the same. I think the mid range matters a lot?

YouTube - 4-19-10 Junkyard Dog SR20 Sil80 matt vs srt4 vs 636 roll race (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAi9MEiwPtA)

im not a bad driver and this is what it looks like when i race a 636...no way that you make less hp and beat 750 which are a lot faster than 636s

2fast4y0u
04-21-2010, 09:13 PM
/\ holy back fires bat man :)

that was pretty sweet. so was that the setup you have now?

HemiCharger
04-21-2010, 09:24 PM
YouTube - 4-19-10 Junkyard Dog SR20 Sil80 matt vs srt4 vs 636 roll race (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAi9MEiwPtA)

im not a bad driver and this is what it looks like when i race a 636...no way that you make less hp and beat 750 which are a lot faster than 636s


I about as good at bench racing as you are in your tube video. I do not know what it was they all look the same to me but he could not pull nor pass me and I was laid into it pretty good and so was he. It was a super sport bike GSXR maybe 600 since it was blue and white. I have no idea?

He kicked it down 3 gears when I pulled up beside him so I know he was into as much as it would go. I have sent my tuner an email to try and get the dyno graphs ---

2fast4y0u
04-21-2010, 09:28 PM
i would like to see them. i will have my cousin(gsxr 750) run next to me and see what happens.

codyace
04-21-2010, 09:39 PM
I about as good at bench racing as you are in your tube video. I do not know what it was they all look the same to me but he could not pull nor pass me and I was laid into it pretty good and so was he. It was a super sport bike GSXR maybe 600 since it was blue and white. I have no idea?

He kicked it down 3 gears when I pulled up beside him so I know he was into as much as it would go. I have sent my tuner an email to try and get the dyno graphs ---

So the fact remains that you have no clue what you played around with, yet go out and claim a 750? Quit being a ricer - you''re not impressing anyone on here with half a brain.

I ask you this in the most polite manner possible: Please quit posting here unless you have ROM tune experience, or commenting on the tunes in general. It's obvious your custom tune isn't up to part with the off the shelf tune, so either you need to find a better tuner, or something is a miss. I'd hope with a custom Standalone tune you'd make better power...

HemiCharger
04-21-2010, 10:38 PM
So the fact remains that you have no clue what you played around with, yet go out and claim a 750? Quit being a ricer - you''re not impressing anyone on here with half a brain.

I ask you this in the most polite manner possible: Please quit posting here unless you have ROM tune experience, or commenting on the tunes in general. It's obvious your custom tune isn't up to part with the off the shelf tune, so either you need to find a better tuner, or something is a miss. I'd hope with a custom Standalone tune you'd make better power...


Wow. I did not look at the side of it and do not know what it was? Why is your panties in a wad? I hate to tell you this but any tuner will tell you the same thing. A canned tune is never as good as a custom made tune for your car. Anyone should know and have known this to be a FACT.

One is a tuned used among many cars and usually is a baseline in which you have to send it back again and again. I do not care about more power. I am running a safe tune good for me. I can get 25 mpg and could care less if I made 400 whp or not. I like my car like it is and I live in Arkansas. I come across absolutely 0 people that have something as fast or faster on the streets. I am sure there may be some around just I have not come across them. If you want a torquey 4 cylinder with great mid range then do the same keep VTC and get an AEM or Power FC. I did not pay much more than you did for my ECU. If you would have and could have done that you would have. So stop hating. It makes me absolutely no difference who has the baddest 240sx around cause I drive my car for me not impress anyone else and if they are impressed then great good for them.

I used your extrude honed header thing and it was a great thing to do. I know you know a lot about 240s probably more than I do especially since I do not know tuning. Do not attack me like some RICER straight out of Tokyo Drift. thanks

mattsil80wis
04-21-2010, 10:47 PM
/\ holy back fires bat man :)

that was pretty sweet. so was that the setup you have now?

lol 3 inch straight pipe to a turn down

yeah that was the current set up...against the srt i spun 2nd both times hard...road was really cold and tires were not that hot

against the bike i loaded 3rd so this way i didnt spin

HemiCharger
04-21-2010, 10:50 PM
I think the biker either wasnt really racing you or he didnt know how to ride, because i will guarantee you that you need about 450 hp to beat a 600-750 bike, and about 600 to play with a 1000 cc bike. Thats if the biker is experiened of course
Also
I dont understand how your motor makes 100hp more than a comparable
S13 motor if you said earlier you have an s14 motor, do you mean a comparable s14 motor with different cams?


No dude I kept VTC on my intake cam which everyone that runs to big power greater than 400 whp dumps. So, in lower rpm the intake cam goes to a little longer duration in order to get more air flow on the intake side. My tuner told me that he over laid the graph with one of the other s13 SRs that had comparable mods and made around 340 whp. That my graph was anywhere from 80-100 whp higher in the mid range area for a given RPM level. They both end up at the same power level but the mid range punch is higher. Anyone that has taken physics should know that more power at a lower rpm level is more efficient than another engine making less power at that level.

codyace
04-21-2010, 11:16 PM
Anyone that has taken physics should know that more power at a lower rpm level is more efficient than another engine making less power at that level.

You have got to be one of the most dense new guys I've encountered in a while. What does LOW rpm flow have to do with ANY sort of VE calculation? I find it ironic you making 'physics' comments when its' VERY obvious you have taken any yourself.

It''s also pretty obvious you know nothing about flow on an engine either. I guess you know more than engine builders right? Lets flow at minimal lift, that's what wins races right...why not stick low duration high lift cams in everything, no body cares abotu top end, it's all about making power BEFORE the turbo even is lit haha.

Just because a car makes more power off the hit gives ZERO indication of its' efficiency, or it's ability. Do you even understand the concept of 'average power' or 'powerband'. Sorry mate, but you can quit swinging from the nuts of VTC as it's providing NO advantage to your car (other than what you believe). Wow you make 20 more hp and ft lbs from 2000-3000. Graet. What about the 50 hp you lost up top running the smaller cam? What's really the faster car? Again average power = faster car. If VTC is king, why isn't everyone using it. Are there even at VTC cars in the 11's??

Please stop smearing up this thread with your garbage. If you want to learn anything, or read about anything, take it to PM with me, and I'll be glad to educate you. Maybe you can take some of your information back to the saleman (oh i mean tuner) who tuned your car as well. Oh well. How bout that 400 hp junkyard POS that we built. Makes better power everywhere than your car. Maybe I should revert back to a smaller cam, and VTC because your tuner said so ;) PS: I just raced a 1000 and won. I think. I didn't see the bike that well, in fact don't even know the brand. But i know it was a 1000 that I beat.


Again, please stop postinggggggg. You're making my head hurt and clogging up the thread.

sbc
04-22-2010, 12:24 AM
you have a "cammed" S14 motor, but kept VTC...what does that mean?

You have aftermarket VTC cams? Who even makes them? (I have never heard of it, that's why I ask)

I've also got JWT S3s with VTC for an s14 sr. When you order them you can request that they machine them in order to retain the VTC function.

My engine hasn't been assembled yet so I cant give you any numbers.

I think price for machining is something like $35-$50

HemiCharger
04-22-2010, 07:38 AM
You have got to be one of the most dense new guys I've encountered in a while. What does LOW rpm flow have to do with ANY sort of VE calculation? I find it ironic you making 'physics' comments when its' VERY obvious you have taken any yourself.

It''s also pretty obvious you know nothing about flow on an engine either. I guess you know more than engine builders right? Lets flow at minimal lift, that's what wins races right...why not stick low duration high lift cams in everything, no body cares about top end, it's all about making power BEFORE the turbo even is lit haha.

Just because a car makes more power off the hit gives ZERO indication of its' efficiency, or it's ability. Do you even understand the concept of 'average power' or 'powerband'. Sorry mate, but you can quit swinging from the nuts of VTC as it's providing NO advantage to your car (other than what you believe). Wow you make 20 more hp and ft lbs from 2000-3000. Graet. What about the 50 hp you lost up top running the smaller cam? What's really the faster car? Again average power = faster car. If VTC is king, why isn't everyone using it. Are there even at VTC cars in the 11's??

Please stop smearing up this thread with your garbage. If you want to learn anything, or read about anything, take it to PM with me, and I'll be glad to educate you. Maybe you can take some of your information back to the saleman (oh i mean tuner) who tuned your car as well. Oh well. How bout that 400 hp junkyard POS that we built. Makes better power everywhere than your car. Maybe I should revert back to a smaller cam, and VTC because your tuner said so ;) PS: I just raced a 1000 and won. I think. I didn't see the bike that well, in fact don't even know the brand. But i know it was a 1000 that I beat.


Again, please stop postinggggggg. You're making my head hurt and clogging up the thread.

then do not look at from efficiency. Look at Distance, Velocity and Time. An engine that is producing more horsepower and torque at a lower RPM is going to be at a higher velocity (for that given RPM) than one making less at that given horsepower and torque unless your magic ROM tune changed that. I have no desire to e-thug argue on a internet site. Have you ever seen our cars or any car for that matter 'REEL' their opponent back in? Well that is what happens when you have more top end power. You are right I have had physics and I also make 311 foot lbs of torque where you made 322 or so. You make more horsepower of which I do not care. Again, it stands to reason if you have a comparable s13 to s14, keep the VTC and they both make 340 or 350 whp then the s14 motor is going to make a more usable power and torque. Just the way it is.

A ROM tune again is not as good as any Standalone -- Do you want something that is made for every car with an sr20det out there or do you want something custom taking into account every modification you have to provide you with the best tune possible? JWT does great tuning no doubt but unless you took your car to them, stuck it on their dyno, and got something custom from them then I would not want to run it. To each their own though and if you love it then great.

HemiCharger
04-22-2010, 07:39 AM
I've also got JWT S3s with VTC for an s14 sr. When you order them you can request that they machine them in order to retain the VTC function.

My engine hasn't been assembled yet so I cant give you any numbers.

I think price for machining is something like $35-$50


good then have them compare your dyno chart to another making the same horsepower but without VTC and lets see the results?

jspaeth
04-22-2010, 07:55 AM
good then have them compare your dyno chart to another making the same horsepower but without VTC and lets see the results?


What you are not getting, is that the VTC only increases your torque in a part of the powerband that you would NOT use in cases where you care about going fast.

....but you are sacrificing 40-50+ hp in parts of the powerband that you WOULD use when you are trying to "go fast".

In any real "racing" situation (other than going from a dig in 1st gear, which we all spin through anyway), you will always be keeping the revs at 4000+, so the VTC stuff is not of much help.

Basically what Cody said

sirfallsalot243
04-22-2010, 08:12 AM
Hemicharger, I will paypal you $10 if you leave this thread and never return to it.

I was enjoying reading the discussion prior to it becoming an elementary engine tech discussion.

Youre like the Honda boys that insist upon lowering VTEC to 2300rpms.:goyou:

HemiCharger
04-22-2010, 08:17 AM
What you are not getting, is that the VTC only increases your torque in a part of the powerband that you would NOT use in cases where you care about going fast.

....but you are sacrificing 40-50+ hp in parts of the powerband that you WOULD use when you are trying to "go fast".

In any real "racing" situation (other than going from a dig in 1st gear, which we all spin through anyway), you will always be keeping the revs at 4000+, so the VTC stuff is not of much help.

Basically what Cody said


you do use that band in autoX and Drifting. Of which I belong to SCCA.

jspaeth
04-22-2010, 08:35 AM
you do use that band in autoX and Drifting. Of which I belong to SCCA.

Ok true, if you count Autocross as racing....because you are constantly spooling and unspooling the turbo.

mattsil80wis
04-22-2010, 09:59 AM
the JWT tune right now is just a baseline...just sent clark all the datalogging so he can fine tune everything...basically meaning to improve the tune for my car

instead of buying an s14 motor and dealing with vtc, why not just buy bigger gears for the rear to help with the low end power that your missing (ie. i run 4.40 gears, cody runs 4.6 gears) never any problems with getting the car back into the power range

2fast4y0u
04-22-2010, 11:57 AM
and i want to clarify with Enthalyp there is no sending and re sending...Martin gives you a base tune and then you can change(if needed) with an s-afc(which i have now) or you can data log it and send the file. he makes corrections and mails you replacement chips with no down time on your end.
to break it down. i got my ecu which already had an Enthalpy tune in it.i sent it to them and he set it up for my parts, mailed it back to me and i have had it since. When ever i change some thing MAJOR i let him know, he burns the chips, overnights them to me and i return the old ones. NO DOWN TIME!
so its not a "custom" tune but its a custom tune for me. i might make some final adjustments with my afc but that would be for the weather at most.
i cant believe how well some one who has never seen my car or my parts can make me a tune and have it work.
im sure that most of the parts these days are with in a certain amount from each other. ie: greddy intake manifold and a Freddy intake manifold are probably pretty close to being the same thing. so once you have made a working/usable tune its close for everyone...but when happens when you throw in a curve ball like, bigger cams, injector sizes, turbo ar, throttle body sizes???
i am running 850cc injectors which is larger then what most people run...but that wasnt an issue


i know this all stuff that MOST people already know about the tunes but what the hell, figured i would be some what informative in this thread.

jspaeth
04-22-2010, 12:46 PM
and i want to clarify with Enthalyp there is no sending and re sending...Martin gives you a base tune and then you can change(if needed) with an s-afc(which i have now) or you can data log it and send the file. he makes corrections and mails you replacement chips with no down time on your end.
to break it down. i got my ecu which already had an Enthalpy tune in it.i sent it to them and he set it up for my parts, mailed it back to me and i have had it since. When ever i change some thing MAJOR i let him know, he burns the chips, overnights them to me and i return the old ones. NO DOWN TIME!
so its not a "custom" tune but its a custom tune for me. i might make some final adjustments with my afc but that would be for the weather at most.
i cant believe how well some one who has never seen my car or my parts can make me a tune and have it work.
im sure that most of the parts these days are with in a certain amount from each other. ie: greddy intake manifold and a Freddy intake manifold are probably pretty close to being the same thing. so once you have made a working/usable tune its close for everyone...but when happens when you throw in a curve ball like, bigger cams, injector sizes, turbo ar, throttle body sizes???
i am running 850cc injectors which is larger then what most people run...but that wasnt an issue


i know this all stuff that MOST people already know about the tunes but what the hell, figured i would be some what informative in this thread.

My guess is that they have shop cars where they can just swap in X cams and tune it and use that for comparison.

I am sure it's not just a blind guess, they have something very similar to go off of.

I mean, changing cams takes literally like 2 hours or less, and the benefit of it for them is massive....

2fast4y0u
04-22-2010, 01:32 PM
im not sure if he has a "test" car or not. i do know that he knows his shit. i had an issue with my setup and we thought it was the tune...a little trouble shooting on the phone and BAM, problem solved. he did that nearly 1000 miles away to. hes got some damn good customer service
every time i talked to him on the phone he is beating the piss out of some car hes driving. its not a 240. man he gets after it every time he can.

j87w
04-22-2010, 08:41 PM
Cody, in the video of the car at the dyno it looks to be burning a lot of oil. Why does it smoke so bad on a fresh build?

4x4le
04-22-2010, 10:14 PM
At the end of the day a custom tune is still better. However I will agree that today for the people that live in areas where they cant find a tuner, these 2 are GREAT options. I would have never said something like that 2 years ago!

Anyways,

Did this today with my sr20det.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn40/4x4le/Dyno/Mydyno4-22-100001.jpg


9:1 cp pistons
eagle rods
stock head and cams with greddy ras
greddy im
n15 tb
jgy fuel rail
msd 72lb injectors
dual 255lph walbros
nismo fpr at 4bar
gt2871r .86 @24psi
jgy light flywheel
e85 only
and NISTUNE
Tuned by yours truly

I really wanted to spend more time but I drove the car to the dyno and I didnt bring any extra fuel. I know there is allot of room for improvement down low but I just didnt have enough fuel to make it back if I stayed on the dyno any longer.
Im impressed. I havent seen such numbers on a sr with that turbo.

HemiCharger
04-22-2010, 10:25 PM
At the end of the day a custom tune is still better. However I will agree that today for the people that live in areas where they cant find a tuner, these 2 are GREAT options. I would have never said something like that 2 years ago!

Anyways,

Did this today with my sr20det.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn40/4x4le/Dyno/Mydyno4-22-100001.jpg


9:1 cp pistons
eagle rods
stock head and cams with greddy ras
greddy im
n15 tb
jgy fuel rail
msd 72lb injectors
dual 255lph walbros
nismo fpr at 4bar
gt2871r .86 @24psi
jgy light flywheel
e85 only
and NISTUNE
Tuned by yours truly

I really wanted to spend more time but I drove the car to the dyno and I didnt bring any extra fuel. I know there is allot of room for improvement down low but I just didnt have enough fuel to make it back if I stayed on the dyno any longer.
Im impressed. I havent seen such numbers on a sr with that turbo.

That is NICE....

4x4le
04-23-2010, 01:41 AM
thanks.

how that pertains to this thread is showing another great example of what a rom tune can do with the right tuner, and a good dyno that has someone that knows how to read it and operate it. the dyno was a dual eddy dyno dynamics. the car had to be strapped down better because it was spinning the yokahamas.



Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk

TurboB15sentra
04-23-2010, 02:47 AM
The bottom line, is that Scott and Clark are both great tuners.

I've worked with Clark/Jim for almost 10 years, and have helped with testing of new/existing products. If you guys think for a second, that Clark doesn't know what he's doing.. then, you have no clue as to what you're talking about. The guy was building off-road racing engines for Nissan back in the 80's, when most of us were in elementary school. The guy worked with some of the earliest forms of fuel injection, and he/JIM have worked with Nissan, as well as several race teams, on designing engine components, camshafts, etc.. If it weren't for the years of hard work, put in by this company, I'd be willing to bet that the Nissan aftermarket scene wouldn't be half of what it has become. Other tuners that have worked hand in hand with Clark/Jim, are people like Mike Kojima (former Nissan engineer), Rob Cadle (former Garrett Engineer, who designed the GT series from the get-go), and Dave Coleman, to name a few.. These guys know what they are doing.

I have also worked with Scott and Martin.. Scott helped me to tune a prototype QR25DE engine back in 2003. We were running a old Electromotive TEC 2 standalone, and made 400+whp on pump gas. Scott was very efficient/quick in tuning with the TEC 2. I was surprised, honestly.. Very professional guy, and knows his stuff.

The bottom line, is that if you took the same car, on the same dyno, and gave each tuner a turn to try and tune for numbers/smoothness, etc.. you would get identical results. Both are great tuners.. but, Scott/Martin are nowhere near Clark, in terms of camshaft and engine design, as well as overall understanding of EFI, as it relates to factory ECU tuning. That's not an insult to either of those guys.. it's just a fact, and comes with years of hard work/experience.

Travis

jspaeth
04-23-2010, 08:44 AM
At the end of the day a custom tune is still better. However I will agree that today for the people that live in areas where they cant find a tuner, these 2 are GREAT options. I would have never said something like that 2 years ago!

Anyways,

Did this today with my sr20det.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn40/4x4le/Dyno/Mydyno4-22-100001.jpg


9:1 cp pistons
eagle rods
stock head and cams with greddy ras
greddy im
n15 tb
jgy fuel rail
msd 72lb injectors
dual 255lph walbros
nismo fpr at 4bar
gt2871r .86 @24psi
jgy light flywheel
e85 only
and NISTUNE
Tuned by yours truly

I really wanted to spend more time but I drove the car to the dyno and I didnt bring any extra fuel. I know there is allot of room for improvement down low but I just didnt have enough fuel to make it back if I stayed on the dyno any longer.
Im impressed. I havent seen such numbers on a sr with that turbo.


Your peak hp is really high, awesome.

Why is it so laggy? Okay, you have a .86 housing, but it shouldn't take you until 5,000 RPM to see 300 ft-lbs....

Cody's and similar setups make 300 ft-lbs as early as 4000 RPM or so. There has gotta be something you can do to make that torque come in earlier.

As of now, your "strong" usable powerband is only 5000-7500 RPM.


With that big of a turbo, you should be able to keep breathing well out to 8000 RPM....I mean at 7400 RPM, your torque is JUST starting to taper off.

I think if you slap on some slightly larger cams and build the head, you should be able to rev out to 8500 RPM and still make really good power.



Oh yeah, I just read....STOCK CAMS?????????? With stock cams, why is it so laggy?


Looks promising based upon peak torque and how much tq you are making even at 7500 RPM....

SoSideways
04-23-2010, 09:09 AM
Yeah most .86 housing 2871Rs I've seen usually hit full boost by 4500rpm or so.

Then again, he's running 24psi...

Maybe the timing isn't optimized where it would be spooling?

jspaeth
04-23-2010, 09:20 AM
Yeah most .86 housing 2871Rs I've seen usually hit full boost by 4500rpm or so.

Then again, he's running 24psi...

Maybe the timing isn't optimized where it would be spooling?


yeah I would agree, especially with stock cams, he should still have better midrange than that.

And in THIS case (as compared to someone before who was talking about making tq at low rpms, like 2000-3000), the extra tq WILL make a difference.

Because in this case, there seems to be torque missing in the 4000-5000 RPM range, which IS important for racing, unlike the 2000-3000 RPM range

codyace
04-23-2010, 12:23 PM
instead of buying an s14 motor and dealing with vtc, why not just buy bigger gears for the rear to help with the low end power that your missing (ie. i run 4.40 gears, cody runs 4.6 gears) never any problems with getting the car back into the power range

Final drives would most certainly be more important to me, than worrying about VTC. Mechanical advantage will always win out for me. Sure we lost some total speed in 4th, but my car will do 128/130 topping 4th.



every time i talked to him on the phone he is beating the piss out of some car hes driving. its not a 240. man he gets after it every time he can.

Yup! Scott/Martin/Chris are all top notch dudes!


Cody, in the video of the car at the dyno it looks to be burning a lot of oil. Why does it smoke so bad on a fresh build?

The car has no muffler on it, and is very rich. It's sooting like crazy. Also, cheaper camera's will pick up on 'heat' and show it on screen. You see this alot at night too when the IR picks up the heat on brakes/exhaust. Looks like a cloud behind hehe.

And spray out the filter is the recirculation BOV at the end. He's got some sort of foam filter on it, which IMO doesn't filter for shit haha.

At the end of the day a custom tune is still better. However I will agree that today for the people that live in areas where they cant find a tuner, these 2 are GREAT options. I would have never said something like that 2 years ago!

A custom tune is always best, that is assuming you/the tuner know how to maximize the setup. As before, if I was runnign a race car/race gas it would certainly have a custom tune on it to optimize where I will be. My 'goal' of this comparison was (as you and I agree) is to show how well they work out of the box.


Did this today with my sr20det.

9:1 cp pistons
gt2871r .86 @24psi
e85 only
and NISTUNE
Tuned by yours truly[/quote]

Damn you and your E85! haha I wish that was much more available around here...yeesh! Soon as I saw 24psi I knew there had to be some sort of octane in that puppy. Looks great, now put some cams in her :D I'm to afraid to crank mine much more, as I don't want her to get addicted to race gas hehe.

the car had to be strapped down better because it was spinning the yokahamas.

THat's crazy with the load. We haven't had much tire spin on the free weights until the 600whp mark on our dynojet...then we gotta use 4 straps or put some ballast in the trunk haha.



The bottom line, is that Scott and Clark are both great tuners.

Yep!


I've worked with Clark/Jim for almost 10 years, and have helped with testing of new/existing products. If you guys think for a second, that Clark doesn't know what he's doing.. then, you have no clue as to what you're talking about. The guy was building off-road racing engines for Nissan back in the 80's, when most of us were in elementary school. The guy worked with some of the earliest forms of fuel injection, and he/JIM have worked with Nissan, as well as several race teams, on designing engine components, camshafts, etc.. If it weren't for the years of hard work, put in by this company, I'd be willing to bet that the Nissan aftermarket scene wouldn't be half of what it has become. Other tuners that have worked hand in hand with Clark/Jim, are people like Mike Kojima (former Nissan engineer), Rob Cadle (former Garrett Engineer, who designed the GT series from the get-go), and Dave Coleman, to name a few.. These guys know what they are doing.

Thank you for understanding this. All of the above mentioned guys are awesome dudes too. YOu summed it up best, these guys are on the forefront of Nissan tech.

PS: Is Cadle even around still? He's sort of vaniched recently hehe. My buddy actually had a custom turbo setup by him for his b14 back in 2001...we'll call it the 'potato with the ball bearings" man what a perfect little turbo. I would love to buy him dinner for helping make that real 28RS as well...that turbo really changed the scene undoubtedly.




The bottom line, is that if you took the same car, on the same dyno, and gave each tuner a turn to try and tune for numbers/smoothness, etc.. you would get identical results. Both are great tuners.. but, Scott/Martin are nowhere near Clark, in terms of camshaft and engine design, as well as overall understanding of EFI, as it relates to factory ECU tuning. That's not an insult to either of those guys.. it's just a fact, and comes with years of hard work/experience.

Again, well said Travis. Thank you for posting here, good to have another person who has had experience working with both and also had nothign but good things to say about them too. Cheers!

SoSideways
04-23-2010, 01:25 PM
Travis is old school man.

I remember when he made that custom QR with the SR crank in it.

Hot stuffs.

Back in the day when FA was hardcore techie.

4x4le
04-23-2010, 02:13 PM
Sorry. Im not trying to fill this thread with my results, I just want to clarify a few things. I didnt go back and optomise my low end, I actually didnt touch it much. Most of the pulls were started at a much higher rpm but this was the final one just to have a fuller graph. I know there is more work to be done and I will be back for more. I doubt I will do cams to be honest but I may some day. I think hitting numbers like that on a Dyno Dynamics with stock cams is just too impressive to add cams.

When I go back we will play with the load on the dyno to make the turbo spool more like how it does in real life and I will start the pulls at about 1800 rpm and go to about 5500 rpms and optomise all of that part of the maps.

This is not a final tune for me. Just some of the work I did yesterday.


and here is the graph with the tq scale
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn40/4x4le/Dyno/mydyno4-22-10.jpg

jspaeth
04-23-2010, 04:47 PM
I doubt I will do cams to be honest but I may some day. I think hitting numbers like that on a Dyno Dynamics with stock cams is just too impressive to add cams.


That's just silly man. You already have a sick setup and a BUILT BOTTOM END!!!!!!!

Why would you not want to let the car rev out to 8500 RPM?

Cams and some upgrades prings/retainers and you are good to go?

I don't get it....it's literally like another 600-700 bucks for another 1000 RPM worth of revving and more power and stuff.

4x4le
04-23-2010, 04:55 PM
After I go tune the lower rpms I will have a much more usable power band. Then If I were to add cams I would just be shifting that power band in favor or a higher hp number (which I have enough of right now).

All in all, really what I need if anything is a stronger power band lower, not higher.
I agree I would love to see what kind of numbers I could get, but Im sure someone will come around with a similar setup for me to tune and Ill be able to see what it would do then.

If I were really into hp numbers, I would have done MANY things differently.... starting with the turbo.

jspaeth
04-23-2010, 05:00 PM
After I go tune the lower rpms I will have a much more usable power band. Then If I were to add cams I would just be shifting that power band in favor or a higher hp number (which I have enough of right now).

All in all, really what I need if anything is a stronger power band lower, not higher.
I agree I would love to see what kind of numbers I could get, but Im sure someone will come around with a similar setup for me to tune and Ill be able to see what it would do then.

If I were really into hp numbers, I would have done MANY things differently.... starting with the turbo.

I disagree with you.

It is always in your advantage to stay in as low of a gear as possible, due to gear ratios.

400 ft-lbs of torque in 2nd gear will pull MUCH harder than in 3rd gear....

That being said, your car is CLEARLY still making GOBS of torque at 7500 RPM.

You WANT to extend that powerband out as far as it can go, because all things being equal, you want to be in a lower gear whenever you can.

Cody....chime in?

I would add something like a 264/264 cam to help flow better and also an aftermarket valvetrain will let you rev to 8500 RPM or so.



Bigger cams will NOT hurt your spool up, because your spool up is ALREADY going to be 4500 RPM anyway since you are 0.86 A/R.


Ahhhhh you have to do it!

jspaeth
04-23-2010, 05:08 PM
Okay I jsut checked the numbers....

In a KA/SR tranny, the ratio of 2nd to 3rd gear is almost 1.45.


That LITERALLY means that if you are making the same torque in both gears, you will ACCELERATE 1.45 times as hard in 2nd gear!!!!

So, even if your torque drops off to say 250 ft-lbs in 2nd gear at high RPMS...you will be ACCELERATING equally as fast as when you are making 375 ft-lbs in 3rd gear.


I myself, did not grasp this until I sat down and tried to understand it......unless your torque is dropping of REALLY fast, you ALWAYS (in our cars) want to rev all the way out to redline (due to the way our trannys are geared).

4x4le
04-23-2010, 05:10 PM
Im buying a house right now. This month. Please let me make my excuses for now. I know the wifey wouldnt like me tearing into the engine right now.

TurboB15sentra
04-23-2010, 05:18 PM
PS: Is Cadle even around still? He's sort of vaniched recently hehe. My buddy actually had a custom turbo setup by him for his b14 back in 2001...we'll call it the 'potato with the ball bearings" man what a perfect little turbo. I would love to buy him dinner for helping make that real 28RS as well...that turbo really changed the scene undoubtedly.

That last time I saw/spoke to Rob, was back in 2003, at one of the Mossy Nissan Oceanside car shows. I don't think he's working for Garrett any longer.

Yeah, the GT28RS was the turbo that really started the revollution for new/updated compressor/turbine technology. It showed that you could, in fact, have your cake, and eat it too. Quick spool up, and big power.. The "Disco Potato", known as the GT28RS, was originally designed by Rob and a few other guys, for a Miata engine. It was such a great turbo, that they turned prototypes over to people like JWT, Coleman, etc.. and those guys were the first to test with it on the SR. They also tested it on the QR25DE, which proved to be awesome. It started making boost at about 2K rpm, and made 325+whp on pump gas. I've personally taken one out to 350whp, on a low comp/built QR.

Anyways.. I'm rambling.. lol..

Travis

TurboB15sentra
04-23-2010, 05:24 PM
All this talk of revving out to crazy RPM, and making power?

Why not go with a VE head? :)

http://www.myspec-v.com/images2/240sxVEswap.jpg

JWT is in the process of working up some hot VVL cams.

Travis

TurboB15sentra
04-23-2010, 05:26 PM
Travis is old school man.

I remember when he made that custom QR with the SR crank in it.

Hot stuffs.

Back in the day when FA was hardcore techie.

I feel old.. Big "3-0" coming up in a few months. :(

That car was a lot of fun!

http://www.myspec-v.com/images2/CharlesCar2.jpg

Racing street bikes, from 60-160 (and winning), is always a kick in the pants.

Travis

TurboB15sentra
04-23-2010, 05:28 PM
Sorry. Im not trying to fill this thread with my results, I just want to clarify a few things. I didnt go back and optomise my low end, I actually didnt touch it much. Most of the pulls were started at a much higher rpm but this was the final one just to have a fuller graph. I know there is more work to be done and I will be back for more. I doubt I will do cams to be honest but I may some day. I think hitting numbers like that on a Dyno Dynamics with stock cams is just too impressive to add cams.

When I go back we will play with the load on the dyno to make the turbo spool more like how it does in real life and I will start the pulls at about 1800 rpm and go to about 5500 rpms and optomise all of that part of the maps.

This is not a final tune for me. Just some of the work I did yesterday.


and here is the graph with the tq scale
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn40/4x4le/Dyno/mydyno4-22-10.jpg


This ^^^

It's tough to compare the transient response/spool up RPM, from dyno to dyno (even with the same car), as loading can vary wildly.

Travis

jspaeth
04-23-2010, 05:28 PM
All this talk of revving out to crazy RPM, and making power?

Why not go with a VE head? :)


Travis


THIS is what I am talking about!!!!

However, even though that head is good for a bizzillion RPMs.....

Someone on here (that knows their shit) showed me the calculation for Mean Pistion Speed.

And apparently, the SR with stock stroke is dangerously near the "factory standard maximum Mean Piston Speed" when it is at 8500 RPM....

I like all this tech talk :-)

TurboB15sentra
04-23-2010, 05:43 PM
THIS is what I am talking about!!!!

However, even though that head is good for a bizzillion RPMs.....

Someone on here (that knows their shit) showed me the calculation for Mean Pistion Speed.

And apparently, the SR with stock stroke is dangerously near the "factory standard maximum Mean Piston Speed" when it is at 8500 RPM....

I like all this tech talk :-)

Mean piston speed, with the stock stroke, @ 8500rpm, is 24.36 meters per second. Around 25 meters per second is considered the "safe" limit for a street engine. However, there are other factors to consider, such as piston acceleration (from BDC and TDC), rod angle, etc.. The SR doesn't have a large stroke, and the rod isn't super short, so, the angle isn't so severe, that it causes tons of sidewall loading. With a good set of rings, and some lateral gas porting, 8500rpm is safe for any SR bottom end, but, I would never spin one up that high unless I had a VE head to take advantage of it.

jspaeth
04-23-2010, 05:48 PM
Mean piston speed, with the stock stroke, @ 8500rpm, is 24.36 meters per second. Around 25 meters per second is considered the "safe" limit for a street engine. However, there are other factors to consider, such as piston acceleration (from BDC and TDC), rod angle, etc.. The SR doesn't have a large stroke, and the rod isn't super short, so, the angle isn't so severe, that it causes tons of sidewall loading. With a good set of rings, and some lateral gas porting, 8500rpm is safe for any SR bottom end, but, I would never spin one up that high unless I had a VE head to take advantage of it.


Right....I met a guy last week though, who said that he was building a VE head SR that he was gonna rev to 10,000 RPM.

I was like "is that safe" and he is like that is fine.....

Ugh I never know what to think....

TurboB15sentra
04-23-2010, 05:54 PM
That would be around 28.6 meters per second.. I'm not saying that it's not possible, but, it'll be tough to keep ring flutter in check, as well as build a light, yet, strong enough piston to withstand that type of force. Why rev so high? Unless you have a powerglide, or something, you really don't need to rev the motor that high. lol..

HemiCharger
04-23-2010, 06:30 PM
That last time I saw/spoke to Rob, was back in 2003, at one of the Mossy Nissan Oceanside car shows. I don't think he's working for Garrett any longer.

Yeah, the GT28RS was the turbo that really started the revollution for new/updated compressor/turbine technology. It showed that you could, in fact, have your cake, and eat it too. Quick spool up, and big power.. The "Disco Potato", known as the GT28RS, was originally designed by Rob and a few other guys, for a Miata engine. It was such a great turbo, that they turned prototypes over to people like JWT, Coleman, etc.. and those guys were the first to test with it on the SR. They also tested it on the QR25DE, which proved to be awesome. It started making boost at about 2K rpm, and made 325+whp on pump gas. I've personally taken one out to 350whp, on a low comp/built QR.

Anyways.. I'm rambling.. lol..

Travis

Yeah but wasn't the GT28RS designed specifically for FWD sentra's? I have not seen any RWD SR guys running them. I like everyone else on here is running a GT2871R. I wish I would have gotten the GT3076 instead. You can always make more power with boost. I understand the desire for top end in our cars but why would you pick a .63 A/R over a .83 or whatever A/R? Is the peak really that BIG of a difference?

jspaeth
04-23-2010, 06:36 PM
Yeah but wasn't the GT28RS designed specifically for FWD sentra's? I have not seen any RWD SR guys running them. I like everyone else on here is running a GT2871R. I wish I would have gotten the GT3076 instead. You can always make more power with boost. I understand the desire for top end in our cars but why would you pick a .63 A/R over a .83 or whatever A/R? Is the peak really that BIG of a difference?

From the results I've seen/heard, 0.63 vs 0.86 is maybe 500 RPM difference in spool up time, but I think the 0.86 will keep breathing for at least another 500 RPM higher than the other one.

Again, high RPMs is good, because you always want to be in the lowest gear possible at a given speed (given that the torque is not dropping off super fast).

codyace
04-24-2010, 12:16 AM
Sorry. Im not trying to fill this thread with my results, I just want to clarify a few things. I didnt go back and optomise my low end, I actually didnt touch it much. Most of the pulls were started at a much higher rpm but this was the final one just to have a fuller graph. I know there is more work to be done and I will be back for more. I doubt I will do cams to be honest but I may some day. I think hitting numbers like that on a Dyno Dynamics with stock cams is just too impressive to add cams.

It almost seems unreal on stock cams, considering everything I've ever seen with SR's (and that' nearly 8 years now myself, as I was KA before that). I can't think of a single other dyno near your 'power' (even with the big boost) on stock stuff hehe.


When I go back we will play with the load on the dyno to make the turbo spool more like how it does in real life and I will start the pulls at about 1800 rpm and go to about 5500 rpms and optomise all of that part of the maps.

I do like the ability to load on the DD dyno...this is my single biggest complaint with the Dynojet we use.


After I go tune the lower rpms I will have a much more usable power band. Then If I were to add cams I would just be shifting that power band in favor or a higher hp number (which I have enough of right now).

See, to ap oint...with the SR you can run a smaller duration cam and probably gain some 'airflow' in the midrange...not needing to boost as much would provide much less stress on the engine for sure...but then again at 9:1 with E85, 24 psi is nothing.



So, even if your torque drops off to say 250 ft-lbs in 2nd gear at high RPMS...you will be ACCELERATING equally as fast as when you are making 375 ft-lbs in 3rd gear.[

I myself, did not grasp this until I sat down and tried to understand it......unless your torque is dropping of REALLY fast, you ALWAYS (in our cars) want to rev all the way out to redline (due to the way our trannys are geared).

While I can grasp your point, wouldn't we also need to figure in a 'time vs RPM' aspec to this? Having more power in a gear is nice, but lets just assume 3rd gear is a 2.5 ratio, and 4 is a 1.0. Even though you'd think the mechanic advantage in power production vs gear would be better in 3rd, could we also not argue that the time in gear in that 1.0 4th be better for total speed? (If this makes any sense)

Or is it just another factor in it all? Or am I just completly wrong hehe.


It's tough to compare the transient response/spool up RPM, from dyno to dyno (even with the same car), as loading can vary wildly.

Travis

Ah, another issue with 'dyno fights'...the time aspect. I love comparing some cars over 'time' in WinPep but even that is hard due to different start RPM and the sort between different dyno's. A lot of people don't understand that the 'big hp' number may be impressive, but once you change that lower variable to time (instead of speed) all sorts of new things can appear.

Yeah but wasn't the GT28RS designed specifically for FWD sentra's? I have not seen any RWD SR guys running them. I like everyone else on here is running a GT2871R. I wish I would have gotten the GT3076 instead. You can always make more power with boost. I understand the desire for top end in our cars but why would you pick a .63 A/R over a .83 or whatever A/R? Is the peak really that BIG of a difference?

The GT28RS was designed around the Miata, but adapted well to the Sentra. Remember that ugly brown 'disco brown' Sentra (hence disco potato) that was in every magazine ever 7ish years back?

Sure you can always make more power with boost...but you loose response. I'd take a faster spooling 400 hp anyday over a laggy 450. The numbrs may impress simple people, but it's all about performance in my spetrum.

A/R on the exhaust side is extremely important. If an engine doesn't breath alot, why run a big a/r and loose velocity? Run a smaller one, on a bigger compressor to make some good power. And is the peak difference that much? Not really...exhaust A/R in the 'generic sense' really doesn't in 'same family' turbos...not enough to make up for the lost spool up time. Now if you're throwing a turbo on a big cube car, then yes, you will then fight smaller A/R's choking motors.

From the results I've seen/heard, 0.63 vs 0.86 is maybe 500 RPM difference in spool up time, but I think the 0.86 will keep breathing for at least another 500 RPM higher than the other one.

Again, high RPMs is good, because you always want to be in the lowest gear possible at a given speed (given that the torque is not dropping off super fast).

Yep. 500 to 800 rpm woth of spool up, with a 10-15 hp gain sometimes. To me, that extra hp isn't worth the loss of response, especially with a smaller frame turbo.

PoorMans180SX
04-24-2010, 12:24 AM
Thanks for providing one of the most interesting SR discussions I've read in a long time.

Can't wait to tune with E85.

HemiCharger
04-24-2010, 12:27 AM
one thing you also have to consider is you are dyno tuning these cars for power. I did the same thing when I tuned mine but my tuner also hopped in the car and street tuned it with me making full 4th gear pulls to get the most out of it. It smoothed a lot of things out that could not be seen or done on the dyno. Additionally, why I like the Power FC is it will tell you when you go into dangerous knock and will pull timing a little so you do not go BOOM.

wannaB!
04-24-2010, 01:40 AM
this thread is good stuff!!! i am sooooo happy to get all of this good background info! i will be going with Enthalpy in a few weeks!

TurboB15sentra
04-24-2010, 02:57 AM
Yeah but wasn't the GT28RS designed specifically for FWD sentra's? I have not seen any RWD SR guys running them. I like everyone else on here is running a GT2871R. I wish I would have gotten the GT3076 instead. You can always make more power with boost. I understand the desire for top end in our cars but why would you pick a .63 A/R over a .83 or whatever A/R? Is the peak really that BIG of a difference?

Nope.. The GT28RS, will easily run on a RWD SR motor. Dave Coleman has one in his S13. It was originally tested on a Miata, and had great results. Rob Cadle introduced the turbo to JWT/Kojima, etc.. (the FWD SR crowd) Nissan's Steve Mitchell actually gave JWT a proto (no VIN) 2000 Sentra SE, to build with a GT28RS. The car was nicknamed the "Disco Potato", because of it's chameleon paint job, and the fact that it looks bulky/shaped like a potato. So, the name "Disco Potato Turbo" stuck to the GT28RS, and has been that way ever since.

http://image.automotive.com/f/images/9915759+pheader/0202_sccp_01_z+2000_nissan_sentra_se_turbo+front_r ight_view.jpg

This car was well rounded, and was brutally quick in the twisties.

Travis

codyace
04-24-2010, 08:59 AM
one thing you also have to consider is you are dyno tuning these cars for power. I did the same thing when I tuned mine but my tuner also hopped in the car and street tuned it with me making full 4th gear pulls to get the most out of it. It smoothed a lot of things out that could not be seen or done on the dyno. Additionally, why I like the Power FC is it will tell you when you go into dangerous knock and will pull timing a little so you do not go BOOM.

I know you're trying to learn, but everyone on here knows this. Just read the thread my man, and save the general stuff for general :D Don't mean to be rude, but lets try to keep it in focus...

4x4le
04-24-2010, 10:22 AM
codayce:
Allot of the reason my power kept climbing is mostly due to the e85 and how I can safely keep throwing timing at it even at higher rpms. Im running 35* in the upper right of my timing map! Most gas sr's will not respond well to lots of timing up top and you are cut off on timing kinda early on gas sr's. I remember a dyno graph from australia (I may even be able to find it) where a fellow was running a stock t25 on a e85 sr and was making around 250 DD whp. The graph was SICK!

I also tend to think that there is an added theoretical compression. Im running an actual air fuel ratio of 8:1 under boost, so there is much less room for air in the cylinder than if I were running gas and at a 12:1 afr. Also, most of the fuel is now a high energy vapor that mixes well with the air. When it sprays into the IM and head it vaporizes allowing it to mix better.


one thing you also have to consider is you are dyno tuning these cars for power. I did the same thing when I tuned mine but my tuner also hopped in the car and street tuned it with me making full 4th gear pulls to get the most out of it. It smoothed a lot of things out that could not be seen or done on the dyno. Additionally, why I like the Power FC is it will tell you when you go into dangerous knock and will pull timing a little so you do not go BOOM.

What dyno were you tuning on? A DD will allow you to simulate any street condition. It also allows you go hold it at any rpm you want. DD is the best tool for tuning period.

And the knock sensor on a pfc is not a high quality listening device either. Stock ecu tuning allows for the same exact feature, Its just most of us turn it off.

HemiCharger
04-24-2010, 11:00 AM
codayce:
Allot of the reason my power kept climbing is mostly due to the e85 and how I can safely keep throwing timing at it even at higher rpms. Im running 35* in the upper right of my timing map! Most gas sr's will not respond well to lots of timing up top and you are cut off on timing kinda early on gas sr's. I remember a dyno graph from australia (I may even be able to find it) where a fellow was running a stock t25 on a e85 sr and was making around 250 DD whp. The graph was SICK!

I also tend to think that there is an added theoretical compression. Im running an actual air fuel ratio of 8:1 under boost, so there is much less room for air in the cylinder than if I were running gas and at a 12:1 afr. Also, most of the fuel is now a high energy vapor that mixes well with the air. When it sprays into the IM and head it vaporizes allowing it to mix better.




What dyno were you tuning on? A DD will allow you to simulate any street condition. It also allows you go hold it at any rpm you want. DD is the best tool for tuning period.

And the knock sensor on a pfc is not a high quality listening device either. Stock ecu tuning allows for the same exact feature, Its just most of us turn it off.

A Dyno Jet and yes e85 would be the way to go if you can get it in your area. I tuned my car on shell 93 v power and that is all I really can run with it. Differences in gas can make a big difference in the way our cars perform. E85 is for sure the way to go but I just can not get it here and that sucks maybe in a few years. Another thing too is you guys have built motors and I am running the stock bottom end. It has held together quite nicely but I would not really like to throw 400+whp at it and watch it die eventually.

I know to learn many of you guys have blow your motors up for fun but I do not want to watch a 3 grand sr motor grenade in front of me. They have come down a lot but that is what I paid 3 years ago.

PoorMans180SX
04-24-2010, 11:44 AM
A Dyno Jet and yes e85 blah blah blah.

Please stop trying to prove yourself. You're trying much too hard. 400whp is easily doable on a stock, good condition bottom end.

Blown up engines are not necessary if you tune it from rich to lean while staying in safe territory.

mattsil80wis
04-24-2010, 12:10 PM
A Dyno Jet and yes e85 would be the way to go if you can get it in your area. I tuned my car on shell 93 v power and that is all I really can run with it. Differences in gas can make a big difference in the way our cars perform. E85 is for sure the way to go but I just can not get it here and that sucks maybe in a few years. Another thing too is you guys have built motors and I am running the stock bottom end. It has held together quite nicely but I would not really like to throw 400+whp at it and watch it die eventually.

I know to learn many of you guys have blow your motors up for fun but I do not want to watch a 3 grand sr motor grenade in front of me. They have come down a lot but that is what I paid 3 years ago.


cody and i have stock bottom ends, stock heads...well we have cp pistons but that is to help with detonation...cody ran his old motor fully stock including the pistons...the only reason why it blew up was because an injector lifted and went lean in cyl 3....you think we like blowing up motors? if so you are a fool

jspaeth
04-24-2010, 12:37 PM
one thing you also have to consider is you are dyno tuning these cars for power. I did the same thing when I tuned mine but my tuner also hopped in the car and street tuned it with me making full 4th gear pulls to get the most out of it. It smoothed a lot of things out that could not be seen or done on the dyno. Additionally, why I like the Power FC is it will tell you when you go into dangerous knock and will pull timing a little so you do not go BOOM.


I feel I have a really good grasp of PFC and how it works, and all of the bells and whistles (I have Datalogit)....

But I have NEVER seen any option or anything where you can setup it up to pull timing due to knock readings....

Where did you hear/see that?

jspaeth
04-24-2010, 12:49 PM
While I can grasp your point, wouldn't we also need to figure in a 'time vs RPM' aspec to this? Having more power in a gear is nice, but lets just assume 3rd gear is a 2.5 ratio, and 4 is a 1.0. Even though you'd think the mechanic advantage in power production vs gear would be better in 3rd, could we also not argue that the time in gear in that 1.0 4th be better for total speed? (If this makes any sense)

Or is it just another factor in it all? Or am I just completly wrong hehe.

I could be wrong, but my perception of Newton's laws is that the fastest way to get from point A to point B is to maximize the INTEGRAL of acceleration over the entire trajectory.

This essentially means that you want the most possible acceleration at any point in time possible.

I have done the calculations based upon my dyno chart (and other peoples' will be similar)...

For example.....


Let's say my "dyno" shows that I make 300 ft-lbs at 6000 RPM and 250 ft-lbs at 8000 RPM.



If you do the caluclations, you would find the following "theoretical" accelerations in each gear (in ft/sec^2)...with stock SR/KA tranny and stock USDM 240 4.083 final drive:

6000 RPM (peak torque)

1 - 42.39
2 - 24.27
3 - 16.58
4 - 12.68
5 - 9.68

8000 RPM

1 - 35.81
2 - 20.51
3 - 14.10
4 - 10.78
5 - 8.18


Notice that the acceleration at redline in any gear is ALWAYS higher than the acceleration in the lower gear at the lower RPM (even at peak torque in that lower gear...).


This means that the OPTIMAL way to get from point A to point B fastest is to redline EVERY gear.


Now, in some cars, the torque drops off MUCH faster before redline....in CERTAIN scenarios, it MAY be beneficial to shift before redline.

This would require that the torque made at the NEW RPM (upon upshifting) multiplied by the ratio of the NEW GEAR RATIO/OLD GEAR RATIO is higher than the torque being made if you had just stayed in the lower gear.

Example:

2nd gear is 1.902
3rd gear is 1.308

Ratio of 2nd/3rd is 1.45!!!!

This means if you are in 2nd, and your torque starts dropping off....for it to be beneficial for you to upshift, the NEW torque you would make in 3rd upon upshifting would need to be 45% higher than the current torque you are making in 2nd.

So even if your torque drops off quickly and you are only making 200 ft-lbs in 2nd, you would need to make 290 ft-lbs at whatever RPM you WOULD be in 3rd if you upshifting in order for it to be beneficial to shift.

Summary

Like I said....with GT2871R setups and the shapes of the torque curves they produce out to, say, 8000 RPM or maybe even 8500 RPM, it is ALWAYS beneficial to just keep revving out in the lower gear....



As you can see, even at redline, the lower gear always has better acceleration then the next highest gear at it's PEAK acceleration point (6000 RPM)

PoorMans180SX
04-24-2010, 05:29 PM
What you're saying is theoretically all good and true, but in the real world both on and off track you have to deal with different speeds and loadings. You can't always come in and go out of a corner while redlining in a certain gear.

This is where the broad powerband comes into play. This way, when you can't come into a corner in an optimal gear and/or rpm, the broad torque curve will get you out faster than if you've sacrificed that for peak power.

That is the reason I'm sticking with a .63 2871R until I can upgrade to a twin-scroll setup.

jspaeth
04-24-2010, 06:32 PM
What you're saying is theoretically all good and true, but in the real world both on and off track you have to deal with different speeds and loadings. You can't always come in and go out of a corner while redlining in a certain gear.

This is where the broad powerband comes into play. This way, when you can't come into a corner in an optimal gear and/or rpm, the broad torque curve will get you out faster than if you've sacrificed that for peak power.

That is the reason I'm sticking with a .63 2871R until I can upgrade to a twin-scroll setup.

I agree with you on the whole practicality thing, but I really feel like in this guy's case (4x4le or whatever), he can drastically extend his powerband WITHOUT sacrificing very much at all down low, simply by adding cams and springs/retainers.

If he is so concerned with "midrange", he should NOT have the Greddy IM....just ask SteveShadows his opinion on that.

If you are going to go with the Greddy IM, which already slows your spoolup, you might as well add cams, which aren't really going to further hurt spoolup but WILL dramatically help topend and allow you to safely rev out much higher than OEM cams.

PoorMans180SX
04-24-2010, 06:35 PM
I agree with you on the whole practicality thing, but I really feel like in this guy's case (4x4le or whatever), he can drastically extend his powerband WITHOUT sacrificing very much at all down low, simply by adding cams and springs/retainers.

If he is so concerned with "midrange", he should NOT have the Greddy IM....just ask SteveShadows his opinion on that.

If you are going to go with the Greddy IM, which already slows your spoolup, you might as well add cams, which aren't really going to further hurt spoolup but WILL dramatically help topend and allow you to safely rev out much higher than OEM cams.

You make a good point.

HemiCharger
04-24-2010, 07:58 PM
The point is that you have blown up motors and had to redo things to get to where you are. I elected to not go that route since I make enough power to kill Mustang GTs, Maros and Challengers. Where I live, a Mustang is like a Civic, everyone has one and loves to modify them. The new coyote 5.0 could be a different story. They are bringing the big power back to the Mustang.

Also you all have said that a board usable power band is better so you are in agreement. However, why not extrude hone the intake manifold like codyace and I have done to the exhaust manifold? The exhaust manifold came out supreme and will last a lot longer than the Tomei, I use to run. It would be interesting to see the gains. Cody was I thought suppose to have a dyno sheet comparing the two but I do not know if that ever got done?

I am older than most of the scene and drive a modified S14 -- also I do not subscribe to ImportTuner but the Nissan Sport Quarter Mag.

PoorMans180SX
04-24-2010, 08:13 PM
The point is that you have blown up motors and had to redo things to get to where you are.

Wrong again. JWT and Enthalpy tunes will not blow engines. This is not "guess-and-hope-your-engine-doesn't-blow". It's tuning, there is a right and safe way to go about things.

I elected to not go that route since I make enough power to kill Mustang GTs, Maros and Challengers. Where I live, a Mustang is like a Civic, everyone has one and loves to modify them. The new coyote 5.0 could be a different story. They are bringing the big power back to the Mustang.

No one cares.

Also you all have said that a board usable power band is better so you are in agreement. However, why not extrude hone the intake manifold like codyace and I have done to the exhaust manifold?

Why don't you try it and find out?

I am older than most of the scene and drive a modified S14 -- also I do not subscribe to ImportTuner but the Nissan Sport Quarter Mag.

Nissan Sport sucks.

HemiCharger
04-24-2010, 09:00 PM
Until a ROM tune gets a neat little commander that eliminates 4-5 analog gauges and monitors things like Knock, A/F, RPM, Speed, temperature etc etc. then the POWER FC still reigns supreme.

How could not make the same amount of power or better with a standalone than what you make with a ROM. You all make it sound like a ROM > Standalone which any tuner knows is not true.

If you have to go ROM tunes -- I am guessing almost everyone is happy with the JWT better than the other ROM options out there. How do you ever know that you are getting spark knock or not once you get into high boost with it? The damage would be done before you ever knew what happened?

jspaeth
04-24-2010, 09:50 PM
Until a ROM tune gets a neat little commander that eliminates 4-5 analog gauges and monitors things like Knock, A/F, RPM, Speed, temperature etc etc. then the POWER FC still reigns supreme.

How could not make the same amount of power or better with a standalone than what you make with a ROM. You all make it sound like a ROM > Standalone which any tuner knows is not true.

If you have to go ROM tunes -- I am guessing almost everyone is happy with the JWT better than the other ROM options out there. How do you ever know that you are getting spark knock or not once you get into high boost with it? The damage would be done before you ever knew what happened?


I agree with what you are saying.

At the same time, the guys that do these tunes are legit EXPERTS.

Like they have tested out X cams, X manifold, etc etc etc and know how everything effects everything.

That beings said, I would imagine that the ONLY way they could guarantee they aren't gonng blow anything would be to always err (how much, I dunno) on the side of safeness in terms of spark advance and AFRs....

I'm wondering if someone blows their motor, what are the legal scenarios? I mean, if you do a schlock job of putting your shit together and your CAS is off a bit, then you put in a JWT ROM and blow your motor, that's your fault.

But at the same time, there are natural variances to IDENTICALLY setup motors.

The only way around this (I assume) is for the tune to be pretty darn safe.

HemiCharger
04-24-2010, 10:02 PM
I agree with what you are saying.

At the same time, the guys that do these tunes are legit EXPERTS.

Like they have tested out X cams, X manifold, etc etc etc and know how everything effects everything.

That beings said, I would imagine that the ONLY way they could guarantee they aren't gonng blow anything would be to always err (how much, I dunno) on the side of safeness in terms of spark advance and AFRs....

I'm wondering if someone blows their motor, what are the legal scenarios? I mean, if you do a schlock job of putting your shit together and your CAS is off a bit, then you put in a JWT ROM and blow your motor, that's your fault.

But at the same time, there are natural variances to IDENTICALLY setup motors.

The only way around this (I assume) is for the tune to be pretty darn safe.

yeah and almost all tuners go to the safe side. I bought some remanufactured douchewerk injectors and they busted loose and ruined my engine. I got lucky though that it happened all at once and did not do any damage. I now run Nismo 740s and all is good. Of course some people will talk about how Doucheworks is a good company but not for me. I could have gotten a lawsuit for a new motor ready for them since I have friends that are attorneys. A product liability suit is a hard thing to prove though and you would have spent more money than it would have cost to fix it to begin with. I have no doubt that JWT are experts and they know their stuff. I wonder if they would tune a standalone? I mean a tune is a tune is a tune so their knowledge should be able to transfer over to a Datalogit table or an AEM table.

jspaeth
04-24-2010, 10:16 PM
yeah and almost all tuners go to the safe side. I bought some remanufactured douchewerk injectors and they busted loose and ruined my engine. I got lucky though that it happened all at once and did not do any damage. I now run Nismo 740s and all is good. Of course some people will talk about how Doucheworks is a good company but not for me. I could have gotten a lawsuit for a new motor ready for them since I have friends that are attorneys. A product liability suit is a hard thing to prove though and you would have spent more money than it would have cost to fix it to begin with. I have no doubt that JWT are experts and they know their stuff. I wonder if they would tune a standalone? I mean a tune is a tune is a tune so their knowledge should be able to transfer over to a Datalogit table or an AEM table.

They could definitely tune a standalone, to some extent.

Base fuel and timing maps would be cake.

The issue may be with the additional correction factors, and also, with PFC, you don't have any control over certain idle stuff related to the IACV.

They definitely would know HOW to do it, but they probably wouldn't be able to send you a "complete" tune, bc the correction stuff in the PFC is probably not (?) the same as the ROM tune.

Just my "guess"

S13 curtis
04-24-2010, 11:06 PM
At the end of the day a custom tune is still better. However I will agree that today for the people that live in areas where they cant find a tuner, these 2 are GREAT options. I would have never said something like that 2 years ago!

Anyways,

Did this today with my sr20det.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn40/4x4le/Dyno/Mydyno4-22-100001.jpg


9:1 cp pistons
eagle rods
stock head and cams with greddy ras
greddy im
n15 tb
jgy fuel rail
msd 72lb injectors
dual 255lph walbros
nismo fpr at 4bar
gt2871r .86 @24psi
jgy light flywheel
e85 only
and NISTUNE
Tuned by yours truly

I really wanted to spend more time but I drove the car to the dyno and I didnt bring any extra fuel. I know there is allot of room for improvement down low but I just didnt have enough fuel to make it back if I stayed on the dyno any longer.
Im impressed. I havent seen such numbers on a sr with that turbo.

Damn, nice numbers man. Looks like your gonna be my competition lol. Im also running E85 but your exhaust side is a little bigger then mine i have .72 hotside and i've got Tomei 270 cams. I would think your injectors would be maxed out at 24psi and E-85 unless you turned up the fuel pressure, my bad jus noticed that you were at 4 bar. im prolly going to shoot for 25-26 psi with the external gate on E-85 and rev possibly to 8k. im still impressed for your numbers with stock cams.:bigok:

4x4le
04-25-2010, 09:28 AM
^^ at those boost ranges Im guessing your not going to see any much more peak hp. I would really be interested in going with an rpm independent boost controller to run higher boost down low and taper it off up high if I were you instead of just setting it at 28psi.

This thread is great. I want to apologize to the op because it has been derailed mostly due to one of my posts but the conversations have been great (aside from a few that are not on par).

I would like to add that the greddy IM came with my engine. I bought the car around 5 years ago and it was put together really poorly but the parts it came with was double what I paid for it so all I had to do was rip it apart and do it right, and then upgrade certain things to my liking (such as the suspension and build the motor ect).

Another thing about blowing engines. NO ENGINE I HAVE EVER TUNED HAS POPPED. I have popped this sr though, when it was on a JWT tune. Detenation was very apparent but that was a few years ago and it seems as if he is doing a much better job now.

I do plan on doing some more tuning on my setup either monday or tuesday and the low end should look much better. I pulled 80whp out of the base tune I set up for the dyno and my only focus was up top. Now im going to be focusing on the midrange and results should be similar. There is also a trick to helping spool e85 turbo setups, and I will implement that in this tune.


As for the the guy saying that standalones are always better than a rom tune, show me ANY dyno graph where someone has a 2871r on a sr with more hp than me and we will just assume its tuned on a PFC for your sake and then you win. Otherwise Ill just stick to my analog gauges.

jspaeth
04-25-2010, 09:34 AM
^^ at those boost ranges Im guessing your not going to see any much more peak hp. I would really be interested in going with an rpm independent boost controller to run higher boost down low and taper it off up high if I were you instead of just setting it at 28psi.

This thread is great. I want to apologize to the op because it has been derailed mostly due to one of my posts but the conversations have been great (aside from a few that are not on par).

I would like to add that the greddy IM came with my engine. I bought the car around 5 years ago and it was put together really poorly but the parts it came with was double what I paid for it so all I had to do was rip it apart and do it right, and then upgrade certain things to my liking (such as the suspension and build the motor ect).

Another thing about blowing engines. NO ENGINE I HAVE EVER TUNED HAS POPPED. I have popped this sr though, when it was on a JWT tune. Detenation was very apparent but that was a few years ago and it seems as if he is doing a much better job now.

I do plan on doing some more tuning on my setup either monday or tuesday and the low end should look much better. I pulled 80whp out of the base tune I set up for the dyno and my only focus was up top. Now im going to be focusing on the midrange and results should be similar. There is also a trick to helping spool e85 turbo setups, and I will implement that in this tune.


As for the the guy saying that standalones are always better than a rom tune, show me ANY dyno graph where someone has a 2871r on a sr with more hp than me and we will just assume its tuned on a PFC for your sake and then you win. Otherwise Ill just stick to my analog gauges.


1) Electronic boost controller is always better, manual sucks. How can you know in advance what the boost vs. RPM profile will be? You can't, AND you have no control over it.

With a good EBC (I love the AVC-R), you can explicitly dial in the duties at different RPMs to give whatever the hell boost vs. RPM you want.

2) That is a completely unfair/misleading statement. Show me someone with an extrude-honed turbine housing AND exhaust manifold AND JWT S3 cams AND greddy IM AND upgraded pistons and/or rods.......

AND a PowerFC?

There isn't anyone on here that I know of with that setup and a PFC. (I am considering in the near future going with the EWG-44 special turbine housing with external gate, and may due the extrude honing, but building the bottom end won't happen for a long time.....and GOD do I need a better tune).

That being said, anything that the ROM tune can do, can be done as well or better with a standalone.


The key to your setup making so much power (E85) and Cody's and the like lie NOT in the type of tune (ROM vs. Standalone) but the quality of the tune and the specific setup/parts.


Cody's setup or yours with a lot of dyno time and a Standalone could make as much or more power than they are now.


I am not knocking the ROM tune, man, I am just staying stop making it like the ROM tune is the REASON for your numbers.....that is so misleading.

4x4le
04-25-2010, 09:46 AM
im not sure you understand what I was saying, or im not sure if I understand what your saying with the last 2 posts.
I was talking to the hemi guy I believe with what you bolded. Im also not trying to make it seem like the rom tune was the reason for my power, I would like to pat myself on the back for that and not the ecu.

I use a greddy profec ebc, not a manual. I hate mbc's.

The boost controller comment I made was directed at s13curtis as a suggestions to use a boost controller like your avc-r instead of just setting the boost at 28psi because up top that would surely not be effecient.

I have been awake too long and maybe should have refrained from posting since it has caused some confusion.

Ill be sure to post my next sheet when I get to doing some more tuning on this setup, hopefully a vid too.

jspaeth
04-25-2010, 10:02 AM
The boost controller comment I made was directed at s13curtis as a suggestions to use a boost controller like your avc-r instead of just setting the boost at 28psi because up top that would surely not be effecient.

Yes!

I really think a lot of people don't understand this tho.

If your wastegate spring is let's say 15 psi....

The wastegate does not ALL OF A SUDDEN open when boost hits 15 psi. it is FULLY open at 15 psi.

That means that while you are spooling the turbo up, the wastegate slowly begins opening, and is then fully open at 15 psi.

This HURTS spool up.

Ideally, you want the wastegate COMPLETELY shut just until that very last second when it hits your target boost.

You can only do this with an electronic boost controller.

If you set your MAX boost with a manual boost controller, then the transient behavior (spool up) will be way sub-optimal.

If you try to tighten it to make it spool faster, you will overboost your target.

Again, you can't decouple transient boost behavior from steady state boost value when using an MBC....

4x4le
04-25-2010, 10:10 AM
I have tried to tell people this but they ususally come back with "but I can make a mbc for a few bucks"

I hate that. If your a cheapo then you dont need a turbo anything.

Having this conversation does have me wanting to check something though...... I want to make sure my adjustable actuator is tight....

mattsil80wis
04-25-2010, 11:21 AM
another reason why 4x4le makes such good power is because of the E85...it allows him to run more boost and timing safely

cody and i run pump gas (93 octane) and the tunes are set for 91 octane (in case there is not 93 if we are out driving)

ROM tune is def better than PFC because i can spend 600 bucks on the tune and another 150 on guages...so not only is my car tuned very well (with launch control/meth injection maps), but i also have the basic gauges that i will need (boost/vac, oil press, and water temp, afr)

dont the knock sensors get turned off on the sr's after a certain rpm?

jspaeth
04-25-2010, 12:07 PM
another reason why 4x4le makes such good power is because of the E85...it allows him to run more boost and timing safely

cody and i run pump gas (93 octane) and the tunes are set for 91 octane (in case there is not 93 if we are out driving)

ROM tune is def better than PFC because i can spend 600 bucks on the tune and another 150 on guages...so not only is my car tuned very well (with launch control/meth injection maps), but i also have the basic gauges that i will need (boost/vac, oil press, and water temp, afr)

dont the knock sensors get turned off on the sr's after a certain rpm?


That is the kind of statement that is creating arguments in this thread

Cody was just trying to reiterate that ROM tunes are a great option.

But sayung that it is BETTER than a standalone is just downright idioitic, and again, misleading.

Rip the ROM ECU out of your car and put an AEM or PFC in and let an equally qualified person tune it (i.e. JW or RSE) and they can do just as well.

Saying it is "better" is just assinine.

codyace
04-25-2010, 03:00 PM
codayce:
Allot of the reason my power kept climbing is mostly due to the e85 and how I can safely keep throwing timing at it even at higher rpms. Im running 35* in the upper right of my timing map! Most gas sr's will not respond well to lots of timing up top and you are cut off on timing kinda early on gas sr's. I remember a dyno graph from australia (I may even be able to find it) where a fellow was running a stock t25 on a e85 sr and was making around 250 DD whp. The graph was SICK!

Undoubtedly. I would love to run 'essentially' race gas (e85) but it's simply nto common in my area. Your graphs are the exact 'result' I'd expect, and it's great to see someone push it a bit to show the capability with timing (and at the same time, showing how much timing really does effect overall power.

I love watching my friends tune the big power drag cars and say 'man I could make that power at 15 psi at 10psi if you ran some race gas hehe'.



What dyno were you tuning on? A DD will allow you to simulate any street condition. It also allows you go hold it at any rpm you want. DD is the best tool for tuning period.

For sure. Any load bearing/simulating dyno is better for tuning than a dynojet, I'll never disagree with that.


And the knock sensor on a pfc is not a high quality listening device either. Stock ecu tuning allows for the same exact feature, Its just most of us turn it off.

Yes. I know JWT is turned off past 4000 rpm simply beacuse of how finnicky and how unreliable the stock K/S are. Heck even the timing chains can throw off knock codes on Nissan motors...ask any VQ owner this ;)



This means that the OPTIMAL way to get from point A to point B fastest is to redline EVERY gear.

Now, in some cars, the torque drops off MUCH faster before redline....in CERTAIN scenarios, it MAY be beneficial to shift before redline.

This would require that the torque made at the NEW RPM (upon upshifting) multiplied by the ratio of the NEW GEAR RATIO/OLD GEAR RATIO is higher than the torque being made if you had just stayed in the lower gear.

For sure. This is why I'm a huge fan of the 4.6 final drive, as it really keeps the car in their maximum powerband. I could (honestly) care less about power before 3000 rpm,as I am never there in a 'race' situation. Street driving, as long as it's smooth I'm content. Don't mistake this as a ricer 'all i want his HP' statement, but it's just my view on it all. So a car makes 35 more hp at 2500 rpm. Woopy. Only time Im' there is in 5th gear on the highway, I'll take the less HP.

I was just curious that over a given distance if a car that ran out of gear (ised all the rpm), would be quicker from A-B than a car that stayed below the threshold.


Until a ROM tune gets a neat little commander that eliminates 4-5 analog gauges and monitors things like Knock, A/F, RPM, Speed, temperature etc etc. then the POWER FC still reigns supreme.

Mine logs A/F, RPM, Speed, Temperature, duty cycle, ...every sensor I have (aside form knock as it's turned off). We understand you like PFC, but we also understand that YOU HAVE A LIMITED (to no) CLUE about what you're even talking about. Please read, and not post. You're really cluttering this discussion up to the point where I want to PM a mod to just clean your garbage up. You're new to this I can see, but how many people need to tell you to be quit before you finally listen? jeepers creepers man, you're like that annoying fly at a bbq.


How could not make the same amount of power or better with a standalone than what you make with a ROM. You all make it sound like a ROM > Standalone which any tuner knows is not true.

Man, give it up! Nobody is doubting the greater flexability of the PFC, but what you can't seem to grasp is how well the ROM tune works for these 400 hp cars. Clark and Scott would be able to tune anything beyond 99% of the tuners out there...they've been doingn this longer than you've owned a car, they've had more ECU's created than you have probably changed lugnuts...why do you not accept that these guys are PROFESSIONALS that do regular tuning, and do rom tunes?


The damage would be done before you ever knew what happened?

Being that you know everything, I'd think you would know that our knock sensors are so slow, that the damage would be done before they even detect anything. If was really concerned over a solid knock reading, I'd get a real setup...but then again, you probably knew that...or your tuner knows...or you know what I mean.

I now run Nismo 740s and all is good. Of course some people will talk about how Doucheworks is a good company but not for me. I could have gotten a lawsuit for a new motor ready for them since I have friends that are attorneys. A product liability suit is a hard thing to prove though and you would have spent more money than it would have cost to fix it to begin with.

Serves your right for buying shady injectors, that are ticking time bombs. I assumed being that you're the pro you would have known that pushing injectors beyond their manufactured limit is a bad idea (hot coiling anyone??). I guess you learned the hard way.

PS: LOL at your lawsuit -- that would have never held up. Heck should I sue Nissan for a bad o ring because my stock engine ripped one out of the intake manifold? Or should I sue greddy becuase of it? it's the name of the game with modified stuff.

PLEASE STOP POSTING -- Sometimes members like you really turn me off from forums (and many others that are in this thread agree with me.




Cody was just trying to reiterate that ROM tunes are a great option.


This has been my goal since day one. For people that don't live near a good tuner, or don't' have the 1000-1500 bucks for a standalone and tune, the ROM setup is really a great setup for a true street car. Im' glad some of the technical discussion came up, as it's been a while since we've had such conversion on here (better than the typical topics we see time and time again). Now if we could only convince HemiCharger to quit posting in here, as it's obvious his tuners words (I mean his knowledge) is a bit lacking -- this would be a great thread to learn in.

SoSideways
04-25-2010, 03:24 PM
Doesn't the ConZult plug into your consult port, and then you can track what your ECU is seeing in real time with a single display?

I remember a Sentra owner that has had the SR20VE swapped into his Sentra, and he showed me the log of his engine revving past 10k rpm without load.

He started his car, started the datalogging feature on the device (pretty sure it's the ConZult?), then he revved the engine, and then he went back and displayed the peak values that the device had recorded, and his rpm read 9999, because that's as high as it could read lol

Anyway, just saying, there are datalogging capabilities for the folks running ROM tunes too, and stand alone EMS aren't the "be-all-end-all" solution to engine tuning.

codyace
04-25-2010, 04:38 PM
Doesn't the ConZult plug into your consult port, and then you can track what your ECU is seeing in real time with a single display?

I remember a Sentra owner that has had the SR20VE swapped into his Sentra, and he showed me the log of his engine revving past 10k rpm without load.

He started his car, started the datalogging feature on the device (pretty sure it's the ConZult?), then he revved the engine, and then he went back and displayed the peak values that the device had recorded, and his rpm read 9999, because that's as high as it could read lol

Yep! Nissan DataScan, ConZult, CalumSult, etc etc all are capable of doing this. At this rate, once oyu have the logging ability, any capable person with an editior/burner would be capable of making changes. (hence the popularity of CalumSult/RealTime, and Nistune now).

I personally use NissanDataScan:
nissandatascan.com (http://www.nissandatascan.com/)

Program Purchased from:
blaZt - Nissan Datascan version 1.54 software for reading engine sensors and trouble codes (http://www.blazt.biz/products/datascan.php)

Cable Purchased from there as well:
blaZt Nissan consult PC scan tool for Nissan OBD (http://www.blazt.biz/products/cable.php)

Single best tool I've ever bought for the car. At 120 bucks you simply can't go wrong ya know? Works as a scanner, does timing mode, logs the car..just a fantastic thing.


Anyway, just saying, there are datalogging capabilities for the folks running ROM tunes too, and stand alone EMS aren't the "be-all-end-all" solution to engine tuning.

For damn sure. It seems like only in the import community that 'stand alone is always best' has caught on. I know from first hand experience that in the domestic area, the stock computers have become so capable and so adaptable that there are guys running 800 hp + on stock PCM's with a tuner program. You simply can't ever replicate the drive ability and workings of the factory ecu, and it seems like many don't understand this.

2fast4y0u
04-25-2010, 04:45 PM
i was 2 HUGE pages behind and some of this shit i jsut read made me crossed eyed. lots of good info

also, i read some stuff i wish i could just punch people for saying.
i have a Consult and i can never get it to work right. must be something i am doing because it never connects to the car.

2fast4y0u
04-25-2010, 04:51 PM
Until a ROM tune gets a neat little commander that eliminates 4-5 analog gauges and monitors things like Knock, A/F, RPM, Speed, temperature etc etc. then the POWER FC still reigns supreme.

How could not make the same amount of power or better with a standalone than what you make with a ROM. You all make it sound like a ROM > Standalone which any tuner knows is not true.

If you have to go ROM tunes -- I am guessing almost everyone is happy with the JWT better than the other ROM options out there. How do you ever know that you are getting spark knock or not once you get into high boost with it? The damage would be done before you ever knew what happened?

so u are telling me because you have a PFC you dont have a speedometer, or a tach, or a coolant temp gauge?
i run a ROM and i didnt buy any of those 3 items...my car came with a cluster that is capable of reading all 3. yes the knock and a/f i need a gauge for but my afc handles the knock and fine tuning(2 birds with one stone) and the a/f can be had for cheap with a simple gauge. autometer has one for $63.

now, i do have an AEM ems but havent installed it yet. actually i have had it for nearly 3-4 years. i dont have the knowledge of tuning it my self yet so i havent installed it. theres a shop near me that will install and tune it for $1200...not something i can do. to much $ i will learn how to do it my self when im ready

codyace
04-25-2010, 05:06 PM
i was 2 HUGE pages behind and some of this shit i jsut read made me crossed eyed. lots of good info

also, i read some stuff i wish i could just punch people for saying.
i have a Consult and i can never get it to work right. must be something i am doing because it never connects to the car.



Not connecting in the sense that the port isn't even picking up the ecu, or the gauges aren't working?

Sometimes the 8pin to usb converters get finnicky for sure.

2fast4y0u
04-25-2010, 05:16 PM
it must be the usb to serial connector. i worked once...literally once. i will have to try it again and see what happens

4x4le
04-25-2010, 05:38 PM
a $63 gauge from autometer most likely is not a wideband and cannot handle air fuel ratio.....

codace, is your 4.6 gear out of a r51 front? And do you know what the wheel speeds are from gear to gear? I understand if you dont know what it tops out at in 4th or 5th but but mostly im consirned with top speed in 2nd through 4th (also what tire size are you running)?
I would love a lower gear but Im afraid it could cause more shifting than I would want in a drift car.

HemiCharger
04-25-2010, 05:58 PM
so u are telling me because you have a PFC you dont have a speedometer, or a tach, or a coolant temp gauge?
i run a ROM and i didnt buy any of those 3 items...my car came with a cluster that is capable of reading all 3. yes the knock and a/f i need a gauge for but my afc handles the knock and fine tuning(2 birds with one stone) and the a/f can be had for cheap with a simple gauge. autometer has one for $63.

now, i do have an AEM ems but havent installed it yet. actually i have had it for nearly 3-4 years. i dont have the knowledge of tuning it my self yet so i havent installed it. theres a shop near me that will install and tune it for $1200...not something i can do. to much $ i will learn how to do it my self when im ready

the stock temp gauge on our cars is garbage it only reads cold hot and hottest. It does not give an actually temperature. The PFC monitors several channels at once and gives you a read out on it. It also flashes a knock "CEL" light several times to let you know you are going over 60+ knock count or whatever you set the threshold too. I bought mine like 2 or 3 years ago when the AUD to USD exchange rate was on our side. Now they are expensive like 1200-1300 bucks.

Tuning is not some secret freaking thing that only a few people are good at. I mean a lot of people own cars and tune then up especially for Nissan and I am happy codyace has such a great tuner. It does not matter to me other than you all are trying to say go ROM tune over standalone cause they make more power when that clearly would not be the case. It is also great that your ROM tune allows you to monitor those channels but you do not have the time to stop your car or look at your laptop while you are pushing out 6000+ rpm shifts.

I know other people that read this and will go whoa I will go out and make 400whp with a JWT tune not specifically made for my car then blow their shit up and be like what went wrong? Again, My PFC has been tuned at what it runs now for over a year and a half. There was no guessing with it and not much to chance. Additionally, if you are given the choice of a ROM verses a Standalone then look over the options really well. The RISK is less with a Standalone and they can control all things. Oh yeah I also have working A/C in my car as well as cruise control, intermittent wipers --everything works like it was from the factory that way..... just saying......

S13 curtis
04-25-2010, 06:29 PM
The boost controller comment I made was directed at s13curtis as a suggestions to use a boost controller like your avc-r instead of just setting the boost at 28psi because up top that would surely not be effecient.

.

Lol at hemi charger bashing.

But yea im running an AEM EMS with eletronic boost control solenoid so controlling boost shouldnt be a problem ;)

mattsil80wis
04-25-2010, 11:01 PM
That is the kind of statement that is creating arguments in this thread

Cody was just trying to reiterate that ROM tunes are a great option.

But sayung that it is BETTER than a standalone is just downright idioitic, and again, misleading.

Rip the ROM ECU out of your car and put an AEM or PFC in and let an equally qualified person tune it (i.e. JW or RSE) and they can do just as well.

Saying it is "better" is just assinine.

i didnt mean better for tuning i meant it for best bang for your buck

to me i feel like for the power to price ratio a ROM tune wins

codyace
04-25-2010, 11:43 PM
a $63 gauge from autometer most likely is not a wideband and cannot handle air fuel ratio.....

You mean narowband isn't good enough? Aw shucks man! ;) hahaha. I bet HemiCharger swears by his ;)


codace, is your 4.6 gear out of a r51 front? And do you know what the wheel speeds are from gear to gear? I understand if you dont know what it tops out at in 4th or 5th but but mostly im consirned with top speed in 2nd through 4th (also what tire size are you running)?
I would love a lower gear but Im afraid it could cause more shifting than I would want in a drift car.

I actually had no clue what an R51 was, so now I know :D

Yes, mine is out of a Nissan Xterra. It's the front diff. They come with 4.3/4.6/4.9. I know the 4.6 and 4.9 work, but am sure if the 4.3 does.

4th gear tops out at 128/130 on two different GPS things...unsure why different, but it's a glitch maybe?

I'm not sure what 2nd or 3rd top out out to be quit honest...I would use a gear calculator for this. I run a 255/35/18 in the back, so that will lower the numerical 'effective' rear ratio for sure.

In regard to drifting, i really can't even provide any insight, other than I know that some S/Florida guys use them and love it...but I've never personally drifted, so I can't help. Sorry !

codyace
04-25-2010, 11:48 PM
Tuning is not some secret freaking thing that only a few people are good at. I mean a lot of people own cars and tune then up especially for Nissan and I am happy codyace has such a great tuner. It does not matter to me other than you all are trying to say go ROM tune over standalone cause they make more power when that clearly would not be the case. It is also great that your ROM tune allows you to monitor those channels but you do not have the time to stop your car or look at your laptop while you are pushing out 6000+ rpm shifts.

Well, in your case the ROM tune does make more power. Sure tuning is easy...did you tune your own car? Exactly my point. If tuning was easy, everyone would have stand alones and doing it themselves. Trust me, more people egg bottom ends with crappy custom tunes than safe rom tunes, that's for damn sure.

PS: You're only lying to yourself if you're monitering the gauges 100% of the time at that rpm. I dunno about you, but I keep an eye on where my car is going, not gauges at that speed/rpm. I log, review, and make needed adustments. That's what safe/normal guys do. Trust me, people aren't out street tuning their 700 hp Supra's looking at the gauges...they fatten em up, log, and get some power out after they are safe....



I know other people that read this and will go whoa I will go out and make 400whp with a JWT tune not specifically made for my car then blow their shit up and be like what went wrong? Again, My PFC has been tuned at what it runs now for over a year and a half. There was no guessing with it and not much to chance.

You are pretty much talking out of your ass here. Seriously, will you get off your own bandwagon. I promise you, that there are easily 5:1 as many rom tune as custom tune guys out there. We drive street cars, nto race cars. Why you think ROM tunes blow up cars is beyond me. Quit being such a ignorant closed minded jackoff, it's quite annoying. Have you not realized that everyone in this thread thinks you're a moron?? Want me to send you the PM's? I've said 100 times, Standlones are great- but for a 350 hp car, they are not any safer, better, or more reliable than a ROM tune. No way, no how. I'm not sure why you need to justify spending what you did to make 350 hp, but the rest of us are content with an ECU. You don't see me talking smack in the PFC thread do you? No.


Additionally, if you are given the choice of a ROM verses a Standalone then look over the options really well. The RISK is less with a Standalone and they can control all things. Oh yeah I also have working A/C in my car as well as cruise control, intermittent wipers --everything works like it was from the factory that way..... just saying......

Um, so do I. So do all rom tunes. Once again, your lack of knowledge is showing, as all of those items work when the car is WIRED properly, not through a tune. Then again, I guess your tuner forgot that. The basic ECU functions all remain, it's just the daughterboard that is different.

But while you want to compare, I have launch control, a water injection map (both selectable) and still have 2 other 'maps' I can run (race gas maybe? fuel milage tune? nitrous??) Can your PFC do that?? My Shitty JWT ECU can. Ya know, the one that makes more power than yours. I wish I coulda spend all that cash to make less average/peak/usable power than you. Hi Five? Maybe the car I made this thread shoulda done the same thing. Maybe the countless other guys out there doing the same thing right? Hell my buddy is making 360 whp with a 28RS in a Sentra, at 17 psi...maybe he should follow your trend too?? JWT really screwed his car up. Turbo since 2001, tracked 5 times every summer, if not more. No problems ever. Stock DE. I guess your way is best, we should all follow it...JWT or Enthalpy are just idiots that can't tune cars, but your tuner is the best. I guess the 50-100 I know personally using their ECU for years now are all going to blow up tomorrow right?

Where is your dyno again? Care to post it? I'm sure it's the worlds best SR20 graph of all time according to you. Quit being a blockhead, and please make your own thread about how awesome your car is. Seriously, nobody cares about another 350 whp 240, as their are 500 of them out there. You have a custom tune, congratulations. Your tuner and you are best friensd. Awesome. Nobody really cares. You've not added a single piece of good information here, other than what you've regurgitated from your tuner, or what you read in Nissan Sport.

(God, I hate acting 13 but I had to get that off my chest). PLEASE HEMI CHARGER, STOP POSTING. I'll be sending a PM to the moderators tomorrow to clean this up.

4x4le
04-26-2010, 08:35 AM
i almost fell for it. i was about to go pfc but codayce talked me out of it lolol.

hopefully this weather lets up and im going to fuel up the car and hit the dyno.



Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk

HemiCharger
04-26-2010, 09:16 AM
i almost fell for it. i was about to go pfc but codayce talked me out of it lolol.

hopefully this weather lets up and im going to fuel up the car and hit the dyno.



Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


all I was saying is think about it that it is all-- you car (codyace) sounded so good on the dyno as well. was that smoke or spark knock or what coming out your tail pipe?


the bottom line is codyace and some of the other ROM tuners are on their second or third engine. I am on my first and am happy. Of course I do not have the time to tear down and rebuild an engine every 6 - 8 months though. I have a feeling if you had a Power FC you would be talking about how great they were and how no body should use anything else. Another guy in this thread shares my opinion on standalone systems. I am not bragging on my car and never said it was so great but you codyace- act like a 13 year old fast and furious RICER who had the remote taking away from them while playing Need for Speed.

SoSideways
04-26-2010, 09:20 AM
Seriously.

Hemicharger, you're digging deeper and deeper. You should really stop.

Did you even read why Cody blew up his engine? It's not because of his tune.

4x4le
04-26-2010, 09:40 AM
hahahah. im pretty sure i have some spark knock coming out of my tailpipe now that you mention it

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn40/4x4le/3-20-10%20tnd/7d6be1d7.jpg

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk

2fast4y0u
04-26-2010, 11:03 AM
the bottom line is codyace and some of the other ROM tuners are on their second or third engine. I am on my first and am happy. Of course I do not have the time to tear down and rebuild an engine every 6 - 8 months though. I have a feeling if you had a Power FC you would be talking about how great they were and how no body should use anything else. Another guy in this thread shares my opinion on standalone systems. I am not bragging on my car and never said it was so great but you codyace- act like a 13 year old fast and furious RICER who had the remote taking away from them while playing Need for Speed.

im actually on my first sr that i have had in my car for 7 years now...all i have done is bolt on extras...turbo, IM, etc..
so its not ROM tunes that blow up your car over stand alones...mines never blown up. :boink:

maybe i should put in my AEM ems so my sr NEVER blows up...EVER

inopsey
04-26-2010, 11:09 AM
But while you want to compare, I have launch control, a water injection map (both selectable) and still have 2 other 'maps' I can run (race gas maybe? fuel milage tune? nitrous??) Can your PFC do that?? My Shitty JWT ECU can.

i did not know that a jwt ecu had launch control and different selectable maps available, as well as dataloging capabilities. are there accessory electronics to allow these functions/how do you datalog a jwt ecu?

2fast4y0u
04-26-2010, 11:15 AM
my enthalpy tune has a launch controller on it...dont know if i can do other maps but il let you know shortly.

SoSideways
04-26-2010, 11:44 AM
You can ask them to put them on there for you.

Not sure if there is an extra charge for it or not, but that stuff is all do-able on the eprom.

mattsil80wis
04-26-2010, 02:36 PM
all I was saying is think about it that it is all-- you car (codyace) sounded so good on the dyno as well. was that smoke or spark knock or what coming out your tail pipe?

with JWT tunes its a little bit richer causing it to have smoke coming out of the exhaust. There was no knock or detanation coming from his exhaust..hence why there was someone there listening to it (ie that guy is the one that owns the turbo sentra with the 28rs)


the bottom line is codyace and some of the other ROM tuners are on their second or third engine. I am on my first and am happy. Of course I do not have the time to tear down and rebuild an engine every 6 - 8 months though. I have a feeling if you had a Power FC you would be talking about how great they were and how no body should use anything else. Another guy in this thread shares my opinion on standalone systems. I am not bragging on my car and never said it was so great but you codyace- act like a 13 year old fast and furious RICER who had the remote taking away from them while playing Need for Speed.

cody had to rebuild his motor not because of a tune issue but because an o-ring failed...the rebuilt motor has been running for 3 yrs now iirc..cody built my motor and its been almost a year of it running at this power level and no problems....so there goes your rebuild every 6-8 month theory.

cody is simply trying to say, which this seems to be the hardest for you to understand, (direct quote from before in the thread)

I've said 100 times, Standlones are great- but for a 350 hp car, they are not any safer, better, or more reliable than a ROM tune. No way, no how. I'm not sure why you need to justify spending what you did to make 350 hp, but the rest of us are content with an ECU.

mattsil80wis
04-26-2010, 02:37 PM
You can ask them to put them on there for you.

Not sure if there is an extra charge for it or not, but that stuff is all do-able on the eprom.


they will put it on for an extra charge because it requires another board to control it all

SoSideways
04-26-2010, 03:17 PM
Good to know.

Thanks!

codyace
04-26-2010, 04:13 PM
all I was saying is think about it that it is all-- you car (codyace) sounded so good on the dyno as well. was that smoke or spark knock or what coming out your tail pipe?

Just raw fuel for the most part. They are a little on the fat side, but that's fine. Also, camera sensors pick up vapor, which would appear as 'smoke' on video.



the bottom line is codyace and some of the other ROM tuners are on their second or third engine. I am on my first and am happy. Of course I do not have the time to tear down and rebuild an engine every 6 - 8 months though.

It failed because one of those larger inlet manifold gromets pushed up around the injector (the pencil style don't hold those down). It simply melted a hole in that piston, and that one only. Other 3 had no detonation, and the rod bearings didn't have any heat/detonation beating marks. 20 psi, top of third, and it felt like a intercooler coupler ripped. Drove it home and everything. That poor motor lasted nearly 10,000 miles and a full summer of rocking the snot out of it at the track. I didn't owe it a dime, especially with how poorly I treat the engines. I build them for fun cars, not to daily drive...but it just so happens that they last too.

And yes, 3 years/20k track and street car. That's good enough for me.




I have a feeling if you had a Power FC you would be talking about how great they were and how no body should use anything else. Another guy in this thread shares my opinion on standalone systems. I am not bragging on my car and never said it was so great but you codyace- act like a 13 year old fast and furious RICER who had the remote taking away from them while playing Need for Speed.

Are you done trying yet? I wouldn't brag at all about a piggy back controller that does everything that a ROM can do. Heck CalumSult does everything as well too. So does NisTune! Both considerably cheaper than a PFC.

Plus, I would be bragging about my awesome tuner, not so much me. Either way, I'm sorry you take it as bragging, as my intention (which I've said 100x now, it's apparent you can't read) was to show that our top 2 ECU manufactuers make awesome setups for street cars. I never said PFC was junk, nor did I say any standalone was. Never. Again, you don't even read what people write, so I can accept that you honestly missed those posts. Bottom line is, for 98% of 400 hp SR20 owners, a Standalone is simply overkill for their setups. 500 bucks gets you a safe 400 hp? That's good enough for me.

I'm not trying to convince people to buy PFC over ROM or ROM over PFC - Again just showing the capability of our best Nissan Rom tuners in their current state.

Trust me, the last thing I'm concerned about is impressing you. Taking the remote away lol.

http://www.codyace.com/albums/album421/glen2.sized.jpg

See you on track sometime? I'll give you a ride along too. I don't hold grudges. I'm at The Glen, Pocono, NJMP, Monticello all summer. Maybe I'll even go out to BeaverRun if you want to meet half way.


my enthalpy tune has a launch controller on it...dont know if i can do other maps but il let you know shortly.

NICE! I didn't know he offered them so that's awesome!!

You can ask them to put them on there for you.

Not sure if there is an extra charge for it or not, but that stuff is all do-able on the eprom.

There probably is an extra charge (as matt said) they involve a seperate board as well.

lflkajfj12123
04-26-2010, 04:56 PM
The only cool thing about the POWER FC is the little gameboy it comes with that you can like velcro to your dash or put it in a cup holder to look pretty.

HemiCharger
04-26-2010, 05:34 PM
I got my PFC from the New Zea-land ebay site and it was less than 800 bucks delivered. iirc

I was not bragging either since I do not have much to brag about. I am on cosmetic stuff now. Have my Conti DWS tires with my r32 skyline wheels and just now need a front lip... anyone have a cool front lip for an s14 that they want to get rid of????

pm me

jspaeth
04-26-2010, 06:19 PM
I like the PFC. I just recently bought datalogit, and it provides a nice environment for me to conveniently plug in my computer to the car and tinker with things and learn how everything works.

I would say if you REALLY are the kind of person (like I am) that wants to learn the whole EFI thing on your own and tinker with stuff in a safe and fun way, the PFC is really really nice.

To each his own.

Again, PFC costs more, but both units can (ultimately) do the same things, no problem.

PFC you can have an infinite number of tunes, saved to your computer, and with a click of a button, you reflash the whole tune to whichever version you want.


The past couple of nice weekends, I have been doing AFR tuning in all of the vaccuum--->0 boost cells, 1200-5000 RPM, with the intent of getting the AFRs smooth and nice and lean for cruising.

I datalog, get the results, make changes in a spreadsheet, copy and paste them into datalogit, save as a new file, and upload.

Then go out, drive, make changes, repeat.

It's really fun and educational!

mattsil80wis
04-26-2010, 06:31 PM
I like the PFC. I just recently bought datalogit, and it provides a nice environment for me to conveniently plug in my computer to the car and tinker with things and learn how everything works.

I would say if you REALLY are the kind of person (like I am) that wants to learn the whole EFI thing on your own and tinker with stuff in a safe and fun way, the PFC is really really nice.

To each his own.

Again, PFC costs more, but both units can (ultimately) do the same things, no problem.

PFC you can have an infinite number of tunes, saved to your computer, and with a click of a button, you reflash the whole tune to whichever version you want.


The past couple of nice weekends, I have been doing AFR tuning in all of the vaccuum--->0 boost cells, 1200-5000 RPM, with the intent of getting the AFRs smooth and nice and lean for cruising.

I datalog, get the results, make changes in a spreadsheet, copy and paste them into datalogit, save as a new file, and upload.

Then go out, drive, make changes, repeat.

It's really fun and educational!

that is pretty sweet actually

but i know cody feels this way too, if i had the ability to change the tune, i would screw something up or push the limits of the tune to get more power out of it

jspaeth
04-26-2010, 06:35 PM
that is pretty sweet actually

but i know cody feels this way too, if i had the ability to change the tune, i would screw something up or push the limits of the tune to get more power out of it

If you read up and do research, you are fine.

Gotta have proper stuff (knock sensor that oyu know works, wideband, laptop, etc.)

Make small changes, check, etc.

In terms of "light load" portion of the map, there isn't a whole lot you can mess am.

I am on a MAP sensor, so top part of the map (negative pressures) are not going to have a flow much different than OEM, so I am using OEM-ish timing....

I log AFR, divide it by target AFR, then scale the injector open time by that percent.

Iterate, more data, check.


Compared to when my car was "tuned" professionally, my AFRs are way 1) Smoother and B) leaner (in a good way, for economy) than they were when it came off being tuned.


Before, the AFRs were all over the place from cell to cell, now they are pretty damn smooth

HemiCharger
04-26-2010, 06:59 PM
If you read up and do research, you are fine.

Gotta have proper stuff (knock sensor that oyu know works, wideband, laptop, etc.)

Make small changes, check, etc.

In terms of "light load" portion of the map, there isn't a whole lot you can mess am.

I am on a MAP sensor, so top part of the map (negative pressures) are not going to have a flow much different than OEM, so I am using OEM-ish timing....

I log AFR, divide it by target AFR, then scale the injector open time by that percent.

Iterate, more data, check.


Compared to when my car was "tuned" professionally, my AFRs are way 1) Smoother and B) leaner (in a good way, for economy) than they were when it came off being tuned.


Before, the AFRs were all over the place from cell to cell, now they are pretty damn smooth

do you have comparable mods to what I run? I might be interested in learning your method of tuning and how you smoothed it out? Tuning is the key to everything. With the right tune you can get engine longevity and gas mileage. You have them saved as .bin files or what? and do you have a website that talks about this? thanks

mattsil80wis
04-26-2010, 06:59 PM
If you read up and do research, you are fine.

Gotta have proper stuff (knock sensor that oyu know works, wideband, laptop, etc.)

Make small changes, check, etc.

In terms of "light load" portion of the map, there isn't a whole lot you can mess am.

I am on a MAP sensor, so top part of the map (negative pressures) are not going to have a flow much different than OEM, so I am using OEM-ish timing....

I log AFR, divide it by target AFR, then scale the injector open time by that percent.

Iterate, more data, check.


Compared to when my car was "tuned" professionally, my AFRs are way 1) Smoother and B) leaner (in a good way, for economy) than they were when it came off being tuned.


Before, the AFRs were all over the place from cell to cell, now they are pretty damn smooth

its comments like this that i actually like coming on to this forum for...where ppl say intelligent information that help ppl with what they need

maybe when i become a baller ill buy a standalone and let you tune it

ps where in s jerz you from? im from hackensack (also have a house by seaside heights) we gotta meet up sometime

jspaeth
04-26-2010, 07:40 PM
do you have comparable mods to what I run? I might be interested in learning your method of tuning and how you smoothed it out? Tuning is the key to everything. With the right tune you can get engine longevity and gas mileage. You have them saved as .bin files or what? and do you have a website that talks about this? thanks

Not sure what tour mods are....by no means am I an "expert"

Heck, i literally have NEVER tuned my car on a dyno.

Taking baby steps though. I have read about (probably total of 50+ hours) the PFC on all kinds of forums (Skyline, Celica, RX7, etc) to learn how EVERY possible thing on it functions.

Now that I know HOW it works, I am starting to put it into action. Simplest thing you can do without breaking shit is to make small fuel adjustments.

Without a dyno to hold steady state, you can't really do AFR tuning of load cells, but you can do a decent job of hitting the vacuum part of the map if you are very careful with the throttle, and SLOWLY sweep through all of the different cells.

Anyway, we can discuss this through PM or another thread.



its comments like this that i actually like coming on to this forum for...where ppl say intelligent information that help ppl with what they need

maybe when i become a baller ill buy a standalone and let you tune it

ps where in s jerz you from? im from hackensack (also have a house by seaside heights) we gotta meet up sometime

I have been trying to meet up with Cody for a meet or just to put a face to the name and have a beer or something, but he is pretty busy.

Yeah, I would totally be down to meet up some time. I am in the central jersey area, about 15 minutes north of trenton.

Trust me, you wouldn;'t want me to tune your car, I have NO experience.

I feel like I have a really good grasp on the theory after many (over 50) hours of reading, but am just now starting to put it into action.

I have a crazy fuel issue that has been nagging me (talked to Cody about it...), once I fix that and make sure my fuel setup is 100% flawless, I may do some dyno tuning myself for the first time!

mattsil80wis
04-26-2010, 07:52 PM
took it to PM so i didnt fill the thread with nonsense

HemiCharger
04-26-2010, 08:19 PM
took it to PM so i didnt fill the thread with nonsense

x2 -- my tune is spot on to Shell V Power 93 anything else and it wants to spark knock under certain loads. That is what I had it tuned on and that is what she likes. No other fuel is quite as good as it but it is all around me right now. I will hit you up on pm. Yeah I definitely do not want to screw around with it too much thansk

2fast4y0u
04-26-2010, 09:10 PM
yeah, Enthalpy makes it so its not on the clutch switch. he does speed to a certain MPH and then it turns off automatically.

4x4le
04-26-2010, 11:39 PM
x2 -- my tune is spot on to Shell V Power 93 anything else and it wants to spark knock under certain loads. That is what I had it tuned on and that is what she likes. No other fuel is quite as good as it but it is all around me right now. I will hit you up on pm. Yeah I definitely do not want to screw around with it too much thansk


Please define this spark knock.... To me that is another word for detenation, but is that what your meaning by it? Or are you getting blow out? Do you see signs of detenation on your plugs? What is making you think you have detenation? Is it audible? Or are you feeling something (shouldnt be able to do unless its severe) or is your hand commander or whatever saying you have it? Either way, shell is great gas but you are tuned on the ragged edge if you have detenation with all other brands of fuel, but your power numbers do not reflect a tune on the ragged edge.


There is something else I have seen that seems to be pretty common in this thread that I as a tuner dont like to see. People tuning off of knock sensors. They are not 100% reliable. They are great for putting a little fear in you, such as if you just filled up with fuel and you see your knock % raise then that fuel might be bad. However they do miss allot of legit knock and they pick up on allot of phantom knock. There are many different tools and methods for listening to knock. My suggestion to anyone doing their own tuning (especially if you incest on doing some street tuning) would be to run an overly safe timing map and start out rich on your fuel map taking fuel out as needed. Get your afr's smooth and in check and then hit the dyno. If your tuning on pump gas I would recomend a listening device of some sort. If your on a detenation resistant fuel you still really need to just pay attention to the tq curve (as you need to on any fuel). Watching the tq curve is major. If it goes down in a spot and then back up you should lower the timing there to see if it goes back up. If it goes down you might need more timing. It can also be caused by other things too. Like on the graph I posted of my run you see the tq drop off at 6300 and come back up around 6900, I did not overlay my boost on that graph I posted but if I were to add that you would see that the boost spiked up about 1 psi at 6900 giving it an odd curve. That is acceptible because there was most likely allot of back pressure at that point and the internal gate can only do so much.

My point is dont take knock sensor reading with a grain of salt if your getting them, but dont rely on them and dont expect them to work when its most important. Please do not base your tune off of a knock sensor.

2fast4y0u
04-27-2010, 09:12 PM
update: talked to my good friend at Enthalpy today. they can do 2 tunes...pump gas race gas, pump gas e85...which ever combo you want. selectable through a simple switch.

cant wait to try that out. race gas, here i come.

HemiCharger
04-27-2010, 09:57 PM
Please define this spark knock.... To me that is another word for detenation, but is that what your meaning by it? Or are you getting blow out? Do you see signs of detenation on your plugs? What is making you think you have detenation? Is it audible? Or are you feeling something (shouldnt be able to do unless its severe) or is your hand commander or whatever saying you have it? Either way, shell is great gas but you are tuned on the ragged edge if you have detenation with all other brands of fuel, but your power numbers do not reflect a tune on the ragged edge.


There is something else I have seen that seems to be pretty common in this thread that I as a tuner dont like to see. People tuning off of knock sensors. They are not 100% reliable. They are great for putting a little fear in you, such as if you just filled up with fuel and you see your knock % raise then that fuel might be bad. However they do miss allot of legit knock and they pick up on allot of phantom knock. There are many different tools and methods for listening to knock. My suggestion to anyone doing their own tuning (especially if you incest on doing some street tuning) would be to run an overly safe timing map and start out rich on your fuel map taking fuel out as needed. Get your afr's smooth and in check and then hit the dyno. If your tuning on pump gas I would recomend a listening device of some sort. If your on a detenation resistant fuel you still really need to just pay attention to the tq curve (as you need to on any fuel). Watching the tq curve is major. If it goes down in a spot and then back up you should lower the timing there to see if it goes back up. If it goes down you might need more timing. It can also be caused by other things too. Like on the graph I posted of my run you see the tq drop off at 6300 and come back up around 6900, I did not overlay my boost on that graph I posted but if I were to add that you would see that the boost spiked up about 1 psi at 6900 giving it an odd curve. That is acceptible because there was most likely allot of back pressure at that point and the internal gate can only do so much.

My point is dont take knock sensor reading with a grain of salt if your getting them, but dont rely on them and dont expect them to work when its most important. Please do not base your tune off of a knock sensor.

I know what you are talking about on the knock sensor thing. I ran an oil sandwich plate for my oil sending unit gauge and the knock sensor would pick up rattles from my oil sandwich plate. I switched to the Nisport adapter and my knock count went way down. I refer to spark knock as detonation they are the same. When you hear a supersonic ping and fire comes out your tailpipe you know to get off of it. I have only experencied it a couple of times when I went to BP 93 since you would think all 93s would be the same. I have found there are differences in fuel grades and sometimes containment get into fuel even the supreme stuff. This can lead to detonation especially on my car -- I switch it to wastegate low boost on my greddy profec and run it out then run shell 93. I really have never had any problems with the shell 93 gas other brands sometimes mix ethanol with their high grades and I think this screws around with my tune and it does not know what to do with the e85 shit.

Yes I know spark blow out cause I have had that too. It happened when I did not regap my BKr7e-11s to .028 or whatever. I regapped my plugs and all is good. I have also found that differences in temperature and load make a difference in performance. I really do not want to kill my engine so I will get off it or not run it under full load when it starts to detonate due to bad gas or whatever. The PC gives a knock count and from what I have read anything over 60 is a bad thing and the CEL flashes like crazy.....

jspaeth
04-27-2010, 10:41 PM
If you were detonating, why would you be shooting flames?

(Seriously, I don't know why....I would think of you detonate, you are igniting TOO early, and most of the fuel should get burned up (no flame shooting)).

Generally, I see my knock count right around 20 during hard pulls.

It increases with RPM....used to be lower, but when I added higher lift cams and stiffer springs, it went up a LITTLE.

Every once in a while, I will see some knock in the 30s and VERY rarely get a blip in the 50s.


Sometimes, the high knock counts come during shifts and can be caused by piston slap (or so I have heard).

I only HEARD actual knocking one time, and that was bc I mis-calibrated my boost controller and overboosted like 2-3 psi above where my car was tuned for.

HemiCharger
04-27-2010, 10:50 PM
If you were detonating, why would you be shooting flames?

(Seriously, I don't know why....I would think of you detonate, you are igniting TOO early, and most of the fuel should get burned up (no flame shooting)).

Generally, I see my knock count right around 20 during hard pulls.

It increases with RPM....used to be lower, but when I added higher lift cams and stiffer springs, it went up a LITTLE.

Every once in a while, I will see some knock in the 30s and VERY rarely get a blip in the 50s.


Sometimes, the high knock counts come during shifts and can be caused by piston slap (or so I have heard).

I only HEARD actual knocking one time, and that was bc I mis-calibrated my boost controller and overboosted like 2-3 psi above where my car was tuned for.


yeah mine will stay low sometimes and then under certain load situations maybe going up hill or something it will spike. DO not know if it is actual knock though since I can not hear anything sometimes. It has been smoothed out some from street tuning but I am in the central US. Not many people within 300 miles can even tune on a Power FC.

4x4le
04-27-2010, 11:11 PM
If you were detonating, why would you be shooting flames?

(Seriously, I don't know why....I would think of you detonate, you are igniting TOO early, and most of the fuel should get burned up (no flame shooting)).

Generally, I see my knock count right around 20 during hard pulls.

It increases with RPM....used to be lower, but when I added higher lift cams and stiffer springs, it went up a LITTLE.

Every once in a while, I will see some knock in the 30s and VERY rarely get a blip in the 50s.


Sometimes, the high knock counts come during shifts and can be caused by piston slap (or so I have heard).

I only HEARD actual knocking one time, and that was bc I mis-calibrated my boost controller and overboosted like 2-3 psi above where my car was tuned for.

Im glad someone caught that finially, but not with the lol I expected. Hemi charger said something about cody's smoke/vapor and asked if that was detenation. I loled and was trying to see if he would have something to say.

My car would pop some flames when the exhaust gets real hot when i let off sometimes so i decided to do a coil/plug flame thrower that i turn on when i drift to gaurentee it. The fans love it! Drifters can get away with a little rice amongst each other.

HemiCharger
04-27-2010, 11:47 PM
Im glad someone caught that finially, but not with the lol I expected. Hemi charger said something about cody's smoke/vapor and asked if that was detenation. I loled and was trying to see if he would have something to say.

My car would pop some flames when the exhaust gets real hot when i let off sometimes so i decided to do a coil/plug flame thrower that i turn on when i drift to gaurentee it. The fans love it! Drifters can get away with a little rice amongst each other.

I have heard the supersonic ping sound of detonation before. I just call it spark knock since I do not know what else to call it. I have not had problem since all I run now is 93 Shell V Power but it did have trouble with MFA and BP fuels but they also can contain 10-15 percent ethanol.

SoSideways
04-28-2010, 08:43 AM
If they have ethanol in it, your car shouldn't be detonating just due to the fact that ethanol has a much higher tolerance to not detonating.

Your gas mileage will suffer a little, but you shouldn't be blowing anything up.

jspaeth
04-28-2010, 09:18 AM
If they have ethanol in it, your car shouldn't be detonating just due to the fact that ethanol has a much higher tolerance to not detonating.

Your gas mileage will suffer a little, but you shouldn't be blowing anything up.

That is not necessarily true.

Because when you DO tune for ethanol, from a volumetric standpoint, you need to inject MORE of it than gasoline....

So, actually, I would expect running 10% ethanol gasoline to maybe cause problems.

HemiCharger
04-28-2010, 05:07 PM
That is not necessarily true.

Because when you DO tune for ethanol, from a volumetric standpoint, you need to inject MORE of it than gasoline....

So, actually, I would expect running 10% ethanol gasoline to maybe cause problems.

It is the only thing that makes since. I have filled up with 93 octane and those I have had trouble with are ethanol blends of 10-15 percent per volume. The higher octane fuels without ethanol such as shell's v power I have not had any trouble and if you could find some Amoco 103 fuels I am sure it would do even better. Factory tuned SR20DETs where meant to run on 98+ Fuels.

jspaeth
04-28-2010, 05:32 PM
It is the only thing that makes since. I have filled up with 93 octane and those I have had trouble with are ethanol blends of 10-15 percent per volume. The higher octane fuels without ethanol such as shell's v power I have not had any trouble and if you could find some Amoco 103 fuels I am sure it would do even better. Factory tuned SR20DETs where meant to run on 98+ Fuels.

98+ fuels is in terms of Japanese octane rating, which is not the same US.

93 octane is PERFECTLY fine.


And yes, the 10-15% ethanol blend COULD cause knock if you were tuned on 93 octane and let's say tuned very aggressively.


You COULD use a gasoline/ethanol mixture, but the volume of ethanol required to combust all of the air is more than for gasoline....


So....when you get that 10% ethanol blend, your car's injectors are injecting a certain amount, bc this is based on it being pure gasoline.

In order to achieve the same combustion as if it WERE all gasoline, that volume of ethanol that is now being injected in each "burst" would actually need to be larger than it is, to account for the fact that it is ethanol and not gasoline.


In practice, with a standalone, if you get a bad tank of gas or get some ethanol, you could just go in to your setting and add an extra ~5% fuel to take care of this....

HemiCharger
04-28-2010, 06:15 PM
the 10-15% ethanol blend COULD cause knock if you were tuned on 93 octane and let's say tuned very aggressively.



I do not know what you mean by aggressive? High boost for me is around 17.5-18 lbs and that is only when I had trouble even with the blended gas boosting at low levels or waste-gate 8 lbs it never would knock. Only up top on high boost when I had blended gas in the car.

jspaeth
04-28-2010, 06:42 PM
I do not know what you mean by aggressive? High boost for me is around 17.5-18 lbs and that is only when I had trouble even with the blended gas boosting at low levels or waste-gate 8 lbs it never would knock. Only up top on high boost when I had blended gas in the car.


AGGRESSIVE = a lot of timing and AFRs in the 12+ range under heavy boost.

Theoretically that could be just fine, bu 10% ethanol may be enough to make that knock.

HemiCharger
04-28-2010, 06:52 PM
AGGRESSIVE = a lot of timing and AFRs in the 12+ range under heavy boost.

Theoretically that could be just fine, bu 10% ethanol may be enough to make that knock.

guess that would cover it. How much knock will our engines take without doing damage to them? I think they are pretty stout engines. Of course once I picked up on what it was doing I stopped pushing it until I could get the better gas in the car then I could boost the hell out of it.

what is the easiest way to learn engine dynamics?

jspaeth
04-28-2010, 07:22 PM
guess that would cover it. How much knock will our engines take without doing damage to them? I think they are pretty stout engines. Of course once I picked up on what it was doing I stopped pushing it until I could get the better gas in the car then I could boost the hell out of it.

what is the easiest way to learn engine dynamics?


Honestly, I just do a bunch of reading and searching....

From what I have heard, the rods are pretty strong, but the pistons are potentially weak....a lot of people upgrade the pistons if you are gonna push it past 400 hp....

2fast4y0u
04-28-2010, 08:26 PM
my knock sensor must not work...i have NEVER seen knock on my afc settings and i do have it hooked up. even under hard pulls pushing 19 psi with 11.8 afr. no knock at all...reading anyway, not sure in actuality. doesnt sounds like there is

HemiCharger
04-29-2010, 08:37 PM
Power FC is there a way to lock or password protect your tune so some Dickhead at a car show or whatever does not come along and play pac man with you commander? or just disconnect the commander before the show?

jspaeth
04-29-2010, 08:46 PM
Power FC is there a way to lock or password protect your tune so some Dickhead at a car show or whatever does not come along and play pac man with you commander? or just disconnect the commander before the show?


Honestly, you can just unplug it....but let's try to keep the convo on topic...we are really killing this thread hahaha

HemiCharger
04-29-2010, 09:05 PM
Honestly, you can just unplug it....but let's try to keep the convo on topic...we are really killing this thread hahaha

yeah thanks

4x4le
04-30-2010, 08:48 AM
the talk about ethonal in the gas i really would like to chime in on. the theory about the need for more fuel to burn the air when ethonal is involved is correct, but as long as your richer than 14.7 on a o2 sensor calabrated for gasoline, all of the oxygen has been burnt. when you run rich during boost that extra fuel is mearly there to cool the cylender. since ethonal is far superior for cooling than gas the 10-15% will negate itself (always).

now lets talk about octain ratings. if you read at the pump it will say minium octain rating. what that means is it can be higher but cannot be lower than advertised (just like treadwear ratings on tires). your shell gas in your area could possibly be 94 or 95 and when you switch to other brands they might just be closer to their advertised rating.

i have found that the best gas in my area comes from a station advertising it as 92 but it kickes every other stations butt for detenation suppression.


i find it funny most people blame ethonal for everything and try to find gas with no ethonal in it, while i would love to find some ethonal with no gas in it. how can ethonal be the reason i make such good power while at the same time its the reason others complain of trouble?

my best suggestion would be to find the best gas you can, with the most ethonal as you can and tune from there.



Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk

jspaeth
04-30-2010, 09:38 AM
i find it funny most people blame ethonal for everything and try to find gas with no ethonal in it, while i would love to find some ethonal with no gas in it. how can ethonal be the reason i make such good power while at the same time its the reason others complain of trouble?

This is only true if you are tuned for it, and when you do, you need to inject more ethanol than gasoline, (volume).

So, ethanol is all fine and dandy, IF YOU can know how much ethanol % is in the fuel.


Tune for ethanol or 15% ethanol. and get a gas with MORE gasoline, you are okay.

Tune for pure gasoline and get ethanol in there = POSSIBLE problems

codyace
04-30-2010, 12:22 PM
x2 -- my tune is spot on to Shell V Power 93 anything else and it wants to spark knock under certain loads. That is what I had it tuned on and that is what she likes. No other fuel is quite as good as it but it is all around me right now. I will hit you up on pm. Yeah I definitely do not want to screw around with it too much thansk

Sounds like your tune is super agressive/unsafe to be quite honest. V POwer has 10% in it as well, not a big difference from anythign else. Sure certain gas 'may' be better, but 9/10 times the fuel comes from the same main 'source' when you're not near a port.

I'd say this: If my car pinged on everything but SHell 93, I'd consider a retune with less timing jacked into it. It's not worth it to me.

That is acceptible because there was most likely allot of back pressure at that point and the internal gate can only do so much.

Yep! This is quite common, and so many people don't understand it. Glad you posted this, as it's a very very normal thing. THat little quarter sized hole just can't keep up hehe.

This is also another reason I went external and have NOT looked back since. Man is it such a nice basic upgrade. I tried every single actuator, as multiple pre loads and simply didn't like it.


My point is dont take knock sensor reading with a grain of salt if your getting them, but dont rely on them and dont expect them to work when its most important. Please do not base your tune off of a knock sensor.

Correct. I know a lot of people who swear by KS and many who don't even look at them...but much of that comes through experience and through trial/error for sure. As you said, they are a great tool, much like AFR. Neither is always 100%

I do not know what you mean by aggressive? High boost for me is around 17.5-18 lbs and that is only when I had trouble even with the blended gas boosting at low levels or waste-gate 8 lbs it never would knock. Only up top on high boost when I had blended gas in the car.

Again, if you are that stringent on fuel type, the tune is way to unsafe for a true street car. All the cars I'm involved with are tuned on 91 for this reason.



i find it funny most people blame ethonal for everything and try to find gas with no ethonal in it, while i would love to find some ethonal with no gas in it. how can ethonal be the reason i make such good power while at the same time its the reason others complain of trouble?

Well, to be fair though E85 is a completly different monster compared to 10/15% blend for sure. I'd love to have more E-85 available in my area, but it's simply not common outside of the NYC or Philly Market.

4x4le
04-30-2010, 01:05 PM
All im saying is i have NEVER seen more than a .2-.3 difference in a afr. maybe i just tune on the safe side but no one has ever complained to me about not being able to go from station

codyace
04-30-2010, 03:56 PM
All im saying is i have NEVER seen more than a .2-.3 difference in a afr. maybe i just tune on the safe side but no one has ever complained to me about not being able to go from station

Totally agreed. Kids avoid the E-10 stations in town, yet I goto them and have no issues lol.

jspaeth
04-30-2010, 03:59 PM
Totally agreed. Kids avoid the E-10 stations in town, yet I goto them and have no issues lol.

This is just smart tuning practice tho....tune on 91 and you are fine.

For me, I usually put in 93...

If I am going to tune my car more aggressively, and not have to be SUPER PARANOID about 10% ethanol, then I should tune it ON 10% ethanol.

This way, when I do use 93, no big deal, but when I get 10% ethanol, I am safe...

Same thing really as tuning on 91

2fast4y0u
04-30-2010, 07:18 PM
i have ran bp 93 since i got my swap done in 05. never had issues.

i have a 04 wrx daily driver and it states to only run premium in that as well..i use 87 octane from a farmers gas station...i get 25 mpg city and 32 highway. its bone stock minus an intake.
things runs like a champ.


back to the bp fuel. i will check my local station and see what it says as far as ethanol content.

TurboB15sentra
05-02-2010, 03:01 AM
Flames/popping between shifts, or, on decel, is typically caused by a MAF overrun.. When you close the throttle, the turbo will keep drawing in air for a second, and even if recirculated, you will get some overrun, typically. When this happens, the throttle is closed, and for a split second, the MAF tells the ECU, to spray fuel when it isn't needed.. The engine flashes rich for a second, between shifts, and you get some raw fuel into the turbo. When it meets with enough fresh air to attain the right mixture, it will explode.. making a small pop, and sometimes, flames out of the muffler.

Travis

4x4le
05-02-2010, 06:24 AM
it happens on map cars as well. another cause many dont think about is lots of fuel flow coming from the injectors and a sudden shut off of the air flow to the IM.

I dont know if you noticed where i mentioned most of my flames are ignited by a spark plug in my tip. I noticed occasional flames only when my exhaust was super hot and thought it was neat so I put together a flame thrower kit to make sure they happen. Its rice everyone can enjoy!



Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk

HemiCharger
05-02-2010, 10:33 AM
I run shell 93 V Power cause I like it and it burns a lot cleaner than other premium fuels as well. If I want to run other gas just turn down to wastegate boost and then I do not have a problem. I run the 93 V- Power in my 2 liter turbo A4 Audi and get 30-35 miles per gallon and make good power with it on the Shell fuels. The guy who tuned my car did not do it on the edge at all but you are probably right I should have tuned the car on 91 or a blended fuel but all my turbo cars from the Audi to the Nissan love the Shell V-Power fuel so that is what I run.

TurboB15sentra
05-04-2010, 03:56 AM
it happens on map cars as well. another cause many dont think about is lots of fuel flow coming from the injectors and a sudden shut off of the air flow to the IM.

I dont know if you noticed where i mentioned most of my flames are ignited by a spark plug in my tip. I noticed occasional flames only when my exhaust was super hot and thought it was neat so I put together a flame thrower kit to make sure they happen. Its rice everyone can enjoy!



Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk

Interesting.. I've never seen a MAP car pop.. :) I guess you could get some residual fuel, for a split second, from the time that the ECU sees the manifold pressure change and/or the TPS change.. Especially in an engine with larger injectors.

Heh.. I had a "flame thrower" on my twin turbo Mustang.. Open wastegate dumps, exiting right by the front tires/bumper, always provides for some nice flamage. :)

Travis

HemiCharger
05-04-2010, 08:05 AM
Interesting.. I've never seen a MAP car pop.. :) I guess you could get some residual fuel, for a split second, from the time that the ECU sees the manifold pressure change and/or the TPS change.. Especially in an engine with larger injectors.

Heh.. I had a "flame thrower" on my twin turbo Mustang.. Open wastegate dumps, exiting right by the front tires/bumper, always provides for some nice flamage. :)

Travis

I need to clarify my statements a little. My sr20 runs better on Shell 93 v power but I have also had luck with Exxon 93 and Phillips 93. Sometimes due to qualities of the gas you get and impurities such as water and such the gas grades are not the same. From time to time you are bound to get some not so standard 93 octane especially in blended fuels. that is all I am saying. I run shell cause it burns clean no black tailpipe or on bumper and cleans engine valve-train of carbon. Or at least it claims it does.

codyace
05-08-2010, 02:40 PM
I run shell 93 V Power cause I like it and it burns a lot cleaner than other premium fuels as well.

Is that what you can prove, or just what you saw on TV?

The guy who tuned my car did not do it on the edge at all but you are probably right I should have tuned the car on 91 or a blended fuel but all my turbo cars from the Audi to the Nissan love the Shell V-Power fuel so that is what I run.

If it pings on anything but Shell, then yes it's tuned way to aggressivly. Why do you need see this fact (especially when everyone is telling you this). A gas rated @ 93 Octane should damn near be the same in regard to detonation resistance. To say Shell > Sunoco or whatever other quality brand, is rediculous.

PS: The lower quality/octane a gas in a dailyish driven car usually nets the most MPG...it's simply easier to burn. I always run 91 on long trips as it gets mid 30's cruising @ 65/70

You're a very frustrating new member.

I run shell cause it burns clean no black tailpipe or on bumper and cleans engine valve-train of carbon. Or at least it claims it does.

Do you really know anything, or do you just repeat information you see on TV?

'it burns cleaner as their is no black on tailpipe' tends to tell me you've got a bunch of timing in it. The only clean turbo car tail pipes I know of run leaded ;)

HemiCharger
05-08-2010, 05:40 PM
Is that what you can prove, or just what you saw on TV?



If it pings on anything but Shell, then yes it's tuned way to aggressivly. Why do you need see this fact (especially when everyone is telling you this). A gas rated @ 93 Octane should damn near be the same in regard to detonation resistance. To say Shell > Sunoco or whatever other quality brand, is rediculous.

did you read my last statement - I said I have had good luck with Phillips and Exxon as well their 93 does not ping in my car. I had some BP I got one time in another state that pinged like crazy under high boost. So, I will just assume I got some bad gas or something.

PS: The lower quality/octane a gas in a dailyish driven car usually nets the most MPG...it's simply easier to burn. I always run 91 on long trips as it gets mid 30's cruising @ 65/70

You're a very frustrating new member.

gee thanks. What does that have to do with this discussion?


Do you really know anything, or do you just repeat information you see on TV?

'it burns cleaner as their is no black on tailpipe' tends to tell me you've got a bunch of timing in it. The only clean turbo car tail pipes I know of run leade;)d

My Audi is another one. It had black carbon build up on the tailpipes when I got it. I have since polished it and run only Shell premium. Higher octane fuels especially Shell 93 and BP Ultimate Euro blend are the best fuels that you could possibly run for a 2.0 liter turbo motor. If you do not believe me then research it yourself at bob the oil guy dot com. You see a lot of carbon build up and deposits with lower octane fuels. I have been around forced induction cars and trucks for a long time and know that when you see missing, bad fuel consumption, and black crap all over your tailpipe and bumper then it is usually from the type and quality of fuel you are using. Keep on using the whateverco 91 and saving the 30 or 40 cents per -- I am sticking with the premium grades and running only Mobile 1 oil in the 240 and Euro Syntec Castrol in the Audi. thanks

http://www.shell.us/home/content/usa/aboutshell/media_center/news_and_press_releases/2009/nitrogen_030209.html

this from an online discussion

I've heard from friends in the oil business that Shell purchases gasoline from the top of tanks, so there are less sediments in Shell gas. The octane rating on the fuel is also sometimes slightly higher than advertised.

so I will lend more credence to the scientists at Shell who developed the stuff than to some online race discussion guru who thinks they know everything.

2fast4y0u
05-09-2010, 07:12 AM
who the hell is bob the oil guy? when did bp come out with a euro blend fuel?

HemiCharger
05-09-2010, 08:15 AM
who the hell is bob the oil guy? when did bp come out with a euro blend fuel?


it is not called euro blend it is a name they dropped but it is still around at select BP stations and that is the Ultimate 100+ octane fuels.

Bob the oil guy is an old forum started by a former oil company engineer. They discuss all things oil and have many threads on premium vs regular grade fuels. Here is one such thread.

Premium Gas vs. Lower Grades - Bob Is The Oil Guy (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1028383)

codyace
05-09-2010, 12:05 PM
did you read my last statement - I said I have had good luck with Phillips and Exxon as well their 93 does not ping in my car. I had some BP I got one time in another state that pinged like crazy under high boost. So, I will just assume I got some bad gas or something.

Again, if you are tuned that 'close' on your high boost than your tune is simply too agreesive. I don't care what fuel of choice you have or what you've had luck with. This is all I'm saying. You can believe it or not



gee thanks. What does that have to do with this discussion?

Your post made it seem as if the reason behind good MPG was your choice of fuel octane and brand (93 Shell). I just wanted to let you/others know that peak MPG will come from the lowest octane. Also, (which it seems is apparent)


My Audi is another one. It had black carbon build up on the tailpipes when I got it. I have since polished it and run only Shell premium. Higher octane fuels especially Shell 93 and BP Ultimate Euro blend are the best fuels that you could possibly run for a 2.0 liter turbo motor. If you do not believe me then research it yourself at bob the oil guy dot com.

Bob the Oil guy is not the 'end all' of these discussions. I guess the track guys running 93 Sunoco aren't getting the same performance? Lets be serious here. Quality fuel (and source) is the most important thing. Buying 93 from a Station in Bumbleweed City, that's been in the ground for a year is going to degrade regardless of fuel brand.

PS: I know higher octane is best for turbo cars, that's common sense. My comment is any quality 93 will work. I run whatever is cheapest in my car, and have since day one. Brand has no effected performance. Heck we even dynoed a car with BJ's (a wholesale club near us, that has gas...generic stuff) 93 and with Exxon 93 (this was 2 years ago) and had zero difference in power performance (as our local forum had a huge discussion on cheap/no name gas and if it hurt power. We found out it didn't.

You see a lot of carbon build up and deposits with lower octane fuels. I have been around forced induction cars and trucks for a long time and know that when you see missing, bad fuel consumption, and black crap all over your tailpipe and bumper then it is usually from the type and quality of fuel you are using.

My pipes are black and I get 30+ mpg to and from the tracks. High 20's mixed city driving. Clean tail pipes tell me 2 things: It's either got a ton of timing in it, or you're on race fuel / e85 /leaded. The 'quality' of fuel makes ZERO difference over a car sooting/dirty black bumpers/ etc etc. That's the tune itself. . Heck my Maxima is rated for 91 or higher. I run 87. The tail pipe is as clean as a whistle. I guess that 87 is just junk right?

Again, do you really have any experience, or just believe what you see on TV?


Keep on using the whateverco 91 and saving the 30 or 40 cents per -- I am sticking with the premium grades and running only Mobile 1 oil in the 240 and Euro Syntec Castrol in the Audi. thanks

I always run 93. I'm tuned for 91. That's why my car doesn't ping on 'slightly' different fuel, and yours does. That's all I'm saying. That's all we are ALL saying. Why tune on the ragged edge and restrict yourself - you drive a street car, not a race car. Hell my car sees a boatload of track time, yet I still regard/build/maintain it like a street car. I'm honest with myself, and realistic about the cars. That's the difference. (I run Mobil as well because it's the cheapest synthetic I can buy, and Rotell Diesel grade oil in my Maxima as it's what we have in tanks at the shop, Maxima has 250k on it, 40k of which I put on it. Maybe I'll switch to what the magazines say is best right? LOL)



I've heard from friends in the oil business that Shell purchases gasoline from the top of tanks, so there are less sediments in Shell gas. The octane rating on the fuel is also sometimes slightly higher than advertised.

We have a trucking company and we used to haul fuel tankers (now we're all dry van, as fuel hauling is HELL on trucks, that sloshing eats brakes). Let me ASSURE you that the guys in the Fuel Yards are pumping whatever fuel from the brand/carrier's tanks into their trucks and its' going into their specific gas stations. There isn't any sort of proportioning or 'shell gets the top, exxon second, BP last' as it's all pumped together. It's also filtered before being pumped in trucks, as well as in the tanks before it goes in your car, as well as in your car itself. Bottom line, Have you been to a fuel yard? I have. The only stuff that is often 'hodge podge' are some of the Farm/Fuel ones that 'country' gas stations get. It's whatever the cheapest supplier at the port/yard sells that they buy.



so I will lend more credence to the scientists at Shell who developed the stuff than to some online race discussion guru who thinks they know everything.

I don't think I know everything - I just know more than you, through experience, not from just reading. When will you get over yourself, accept this, read what we have to say, and learn? I have no problem having discussions with people wanting to learn - I do have an issue trying to discuss things with someone who knows everything from behind the computer screen.

HemiCharger
05-09-2010, 06:06 PM
Again, if you are tuned that 'close' on your high boost than your tune is simply too agreesive. I don't care what fuel of choice you have or what you've had luck with. This is all I'm saying. You can believe it or not

It is not that I am pinging all the time and what not. I would have surely have blown my engine now for the past 18 months I have been running this tune. I did not tune it myself as I know nothing about tuning a car. It has been street tuned and then A/F logged dyno tuned. I run 93 cause my car is tuned for 93 and that is all I will run. I can see how running a lower octane fuel could cause problems for me so I usually do not run it. I do not know but if it makes you feel better saying I am tuned on the ragged edge all the while burning no oil and using no coolant is fine with me. I think I would have blown it up by now if that was the case.



Your post made it seem as if the reason behind good MPG was your choice of fuel octane and brand (93 Shell). I just wanted to let you/others know that peak MPG will come from the lowest octane. Also, (which it seems is apparent)

I never said that at all -- cleaner higher octane fuels burn more complete and leave less deposits especially nitrogen rich fuel additives such as Shell V Power.



Bob the Oil guy is not the 'end all' of these discussions. I guess the track guys running 93 Sunoco aren't getting the same performance? Lets be serious here. Quality fuel (and source) is the most important thing. Buying 93 from a Station in Bumbleweed City, that's been in the ground for a year is going to degrade regardless of fuel brand.

Phd Oil Manufacturing engineers --->>> YOU and YOUR band of expert tuners.

I run whatever is cheapest in my car, and have since day one.

that is evident. :) there is no power difference but I assure you there is a difference in the internal effects and dynamics of your engine over time.



My pipes are black and I get 30+ mpg to and from the tracks. High 20's mixed city driving. Clean tail pipes tell me 2 things: It's either got a ton of timing in it, or you're on race fuel / e85 /leaded. The 'quality' of fuel makes ZERO difference over a car sooting/dirty black bumpers/ etc etc. That's the tune itself. . Heck my Maxima is rated for 91 or higher. I run 87. The tail pipe is as clean as a whistle. I guess that 87 is just junk right?

lots of things can led to carbon build up. Would it not make since to run fuels that have been proven to reduce and help carbon deposits left within the engine?


Again, do you really have any experience, or just believe what you see on TV?

Nope other than running Shell V Power 93 in most all my vehicles and the increase in performance and the ability to see how my cars react differently then when I run some MFA 93 or whatever?



I always run 93. I'm tuned for 91. That's why my car doesn't ping on 'slightly' different fuel, and yours does. That's all I'm saying. That's all we are ALL saying. Why tune on the ragged edge and restrict yourself - you drive a street car, not a race car. Hell my car sees a boatload of track time, yet I still regard/build/maintain it like a street car. I'm honest with myself, and realistic about the cars. That's the difference. (I run Mobil as well because it's the cheapest synthetic I can buy, and Rotell Diesel grade oil in my Maxima as it's what we have in tanks at the shop, Maxima has 250k on it, 40k of which I put on it. Maybe I'll switch to what the magazines say is best right? LOL)

run what you want and I will continue to run what I want. How do you know you have no knock -- knock really can not even be heard unless it is really bad and by then it is too late. I have the ability to see knock counts when I hit higher boost levels, How about you and your ROM tune?


We have a trucking company and we used to haul fuel tankers (now we're all dry van, as fuel hauling is HELL on trucks, that sloshing eats brakes). Let me ASSURE you that the guys in the Fuel Yards are pumping whatever fuel from the brand/carrier's tanks into their trucks and its' going into their specific gas stations. There isn't any sort of proportioning or 'shell gets the top, exxon second, BP last' as it's all pumped together. It's also filtered before being pumped in trucks, as well as in the tanks before it goes in your car, as well as in your car itself. Bottom line, Have you been to a fuel yard? I have. The only stuff that is often 'hodge podge' are some of the Farm/Fuel ones that 'country' gas stations get. It's whatever the cheapest supplier at the port/yard sells that they buy.

correct but once the fuel is sent to the dealers tanks the fuel additives are added to them. They Shell, BP, or whoever add things to the fuel which is their own branded substances such as V-Power or whatever.




I don't think I know everything - I just know more than you, through experience, not from just reading. When will you get over yourself, accept this, read what we have to say, and learn? I have no problem having discussions with people wanting to learn - I do have an issue trying to discuss things with someone who knows everything from behind the computer screen.

so you want me to accept that you know everything about tuning and I am just a newbie no nothing. I have read some of your ingenious creative ways to make a ka compressor work with an sr motor or how to run another alternator than the one mentioned for the sr. You do know that the sr a/c compressor is like hella lot smaller than the ka one? right? Some of the stuff such as the sr iron manifold extrude hon process is great but some of the stuff like the alternator solution misses the mark IMO. Your car or anyone that owns a 240sx sr20det swapped car on this forum is only as good as the parts placed on them.

codyace
05-09-2010, 07:33 PM
I do not know but if it makes you feel better saying I am tuned on the ragged edge all the while burning no oil and using no coolant is fine with me. I think I would have blown it up by now if that was the case.

Whats a tune need to do with burning oil or collant? Didn't realize that Custom tune can effect either. LOL.




I never said that at all -- cleaner higher octane fuels burn more complete and leave less deposits especially nitrogen rich fuel additives such as Shell V Power.

Dumbass post of the year? Maybe!

An engine will run most efficient at the lowest octane possible. Lower Octane = quicker burn. This is why guys will loose power running race gas on pump tunes. Again, Iv'e dynoed PERSONALLY more cars than you'd probably even driven. I know what works/doesn't work. Keep blabbing about what you think. I'll post what I know.


Phd Oil Manufacturing engineers --->>> YOU and YOUR band of expert tuners.


A doctorate of Oil manfucturing? I never saw that in a list. Shmuck. You do realize what you ae typing right?



that is evident. :) there is no power difference but I assure you there is a difference in the internal effects and dynamics of your engine over time.

If a fuel burns it burns. It makes no effect. Trust me, that V power commerical looks great and all, but can you proove it?




lots of things can led to carbon build up. Would it not make since to run fuels that have been proven to reduce and help carbon deposits left within the engine?

Proven where? ATT gets good coverage, yet VZ works best here.


Nope other than running Shell V Power 93 in most all my vehicles and the increase in performance and the ability to see how my cars react differently then when I run some MFA 93 or whatever?

Have you dynoed either? Quit trying act like you know what you're talking about. You've successfully trashed my thread with nonsense. Thank you. I actually met a guy the other night that we laughed about your posts. LOL.



run what you want and I will continue to run what I want. How do you know you have no knock -- knock really can not even be heard unless it is really bad and by then it is too late. I have the ability to see knock counts when I hit higher boost levels, How about you and your ROM tune?

Doens't make a difference what you have, considering our stock sensors pick up timing chain noise as knock. Really does you a lot of good not knowing how to tune either. I guess if I pinged alot I'd be blown up....a few years back.



correct but once the fuel is sent to the dealers tanks the fuel additives are added to them. They Shell, BP, or whoever add things to the fuel which is their own branded substances such as V-Power or whatever.

WRONG

Fuel comes to the yard. It gets disperssed to the spefiic brand tank. It then goes to the trucks, which goes to your tank. Easy as that. Sorry to break it to ya, I guess your 'source' has lied to you. it's ok though, now you know.

codyace
05-09-2010, 07:35 PM
so you want me to accept that you know everything about tuning and I am just a newbie no nothing. I have read some of your ingenious creative ways to make a ka compressor work with an sr motor or how to run another alternator than the one mentioned for the sr. You do know that the sr a/c compressor is like hella lot smaller than the ka one? right?

What does size make a difference. Same clutch, same pulley. Different location.

Altenator wise, it's the same 5 rib pulley and same size.

Why try to attack me when you've probably not played with either. I've sold more kits of both than you have tightend lug nuts.

PS: In total physical size, they are the same. Maybe a few cubic inches difference (2 to 4). Do you ahve a point at all here? Who cares abou tsize, it's all about making it work. You can't use SR comrpessor with KA lines - that's the bottom line.

Do you even have a point here? Holy cow. Keep digging, I've been around longer than youv'e owned the 240.


Some of the stuff such as the sr iron manifold extrude hon process is great but some of the stuff like the alternator solution misses the mark IMO. Your car or anyone that owns a 240sx sr20det swapped car on this forum is only as good as the parts placed on them.

Why does the alternator solution miss the mark? beacuse you can run a big alternator without a hack job kit, or paying someone to weld you one?

Keep trying. I've got all day. It's guys like you that ruin the community, not me. I've provided plenty of help, and met countless people locally who have personally thanked me for helping them. Who are you again?

I love a hater. Makes me feel better. What have you done to help the community?

codyace
05-09-2010, 07:37 PM
Poor HemiCharger. I guess everytone needs a jackass right?

jspaeth
05-09-2010, 07:48 PM
Fuel comes to the yard. It gets disperssed to the spefiic brand tank. It then goes to the trucks, which goes to your tank. Easy as that. Sorry to break it to ya, I guess your 'source' has lied to you. it's ok though, now you know.

Cody, I am actually curious about this...

I personally, ONLY use shell V-power 93 octane.

Now, they advertise it as having "X" additives and nitrogen-enriched etc etc.

You are telling me that all other 93 octanes from any old station are the same?

You say nothing is added after the distribution point where all stations get there gas from.

This implies that every gas station essentially has the same fuel?


If this is true, you are saying 1 of 2 things.

Either

1) ALL 93-octane at ALL gas stations have the "X" additives and nitrogen-enrichment that Shell Advertises.

or

2) Shell is guilty of false advertisement, and their 93 octane v-power is NOT nitrogen enriched and does NOT contain the additives they claim.



Personally, I can't see how this is possible. I believe you get what you pay for and the Joe Schmo gas station's 93-octane does not contain the same additives as something like V-Power does.


Not trying to fight, but this one didn't make sense to me.....

HemiCharger
05-09-2010, 08:13 PM
Whats a tune need to do with burning oil or collant? Didn't realize that Custom tune can effect either. LOL.

Dumbass post of the year? Maybe!


Gosh I could spend alnight dealing with your inaccuracies and misinformation. You did not actually read any of that link I provided from Bob is the Oil guy did you?


An engine will run most efficient at the lowest octane possible. Lower Octane = quicker burn. This is why guys will loose power running race gas on pump tunes. Again, Iv'e dynoed PERSONALLY more cars than you'd probably even driven. I know what works/doesn't work. Keep blabbing about what you think. I'll post what I know.



this is from a person who works in the gasoline business
The way that it was explained to me is as follows: Long chain hydrocarbon molecules are more more difficult to break apart. This improves their ability to resist detonation, which improves octane ratings. Short chain hydrocarbons break apart easily, yielding less stability and lower octane ratings. Anyway, I am quite possibly remembering this wrong, but I believe the above to be true.

As for the gasoline that we manufacture at the refinery where I work, octane is controlled at the plant and not the tanker loading rack. There is no magic "foo-foo" juice that is added to gasoline to improve the octane rating of gasoline as it is being loaded into tanker trucks for delivery that I know of. Octane "improvers" are added at the refinery during the gasoline blending process from what I have been told. Perhaps this is where the confusion comes from?

Agreed, you can adulterate a higher grade fuel down to a lower grade, but you can't additize a lower grade motor fuel into a higher grade. The additive packages added at the terminal are enhancements to whatever the base fuel grade may be, and if the additive package is not sufficiently distinctive, markers may also be added that allow the majors to be able to sample a station's tanks to prove their gas is or is not being sold under their brand.

I sell generic unleaded and premium at my stations, but I won't use it in my cars - they get Shell V-Power only.

that is from a freakin chemist in the business.


A doctorate of Oil manfucturing? I never saw that in a list. Shmuck. You do realize what you ae typing right?


Ok then chemical, mechanical, and civil engineers and even some published PhD professors in the field. People with more education in this then you have even been on this planet. :eek2:



If a fuel burns it burns. It makes no effect. Trust me, that V power commerical looks great and all, but can you proove it?


there are numerous threads that deal with the value of it. Stop getting your panties in a wad....





Have you dynoed either? Quit trying act like you know what you're talking about. You've successfully trashed my thread with nonsense. Thank you. I actually met a guy the other night that we laughed about your posts. LOL.



Yeah I dynoed with V-Power at 311 foot lbs of torque within like 10 of where you were with all your supper dupper tuning.


Doens't make a difference what you have, considering our stock sensors pick up timing chain noise as knock. Really does you a lot of good not knowing how to tune either. I guess if I pinged alot I'd be blown up....a few years back.

our knock sensors are sensitive and picked up an oil plate rattle as knock on my car.




WRONG

Fuel comes to the yard. It gets disperssed to the spefiic brand tank. It then goes to the trucks, which goes to your tank. Easy as that. Sorry to break it to ya, I guess your 'source' has lied to you. it's ok though, now you know.

this is just wrong read the information from the people who process Shell V Power and then come back to this statement. Please.

HemiCharger
05-09-2010, 08:14 PM
Cody, I am actually curious about this...

I personally, ONLY use shell V-power 93 octane.

Now, they advertise it as having "X" additives and nitrogen-enriched etc etc.

You are telling me that all other 93 octanes from any old station are the same?

You say nothing is added after the distribution point where all stations get there gas from.

This implies that every gas station essentially has the same fuel?


If this is true, you are saying 1 of 2 things.

Either

1) ALL 93-octane at ALL gas stations have the "X" additives and nitrogen-enrichment that Shell Advertises.

or

2) Shell is guilty of false advertisement, and their 93 octane v-power is NOT nitrogen enriched and does NOT contain the additives they claim.



Personally, I can't see how this is possible. I believe you get what you pay for and the Joe Schmo gas station's 93-octane does not contain the same additives as something like V-Power does.


Not trying to fight, but this one didn't make sense to me.....

no he is full of shit period. If this was the case we need to ready our class action suit on Monday morning.

HemiCharger
05-09-2010, 08:20 PM
What does size make a difference. Same clutch, same pulley. Different location.

Altenator wise, it's the same 5 rib pulley and same size.

Why try to attack me when you've probably not played with either. I've sold more kits of both than you have tightend lug nuts.

PS: In total physical size, they are the same. Maybe a few cubic inches difference (2 to 4). Do you ahve a point at all here? Who cares abou tsize, it's all about making it work. You can't use SR comrpessor with KA lines - that's the bottom line.

Do you even have a point here? Holy cow. Keep digging, I've been around longer than youv'e owned the 240.


no point other than I like me stuff to work like the Nissan engineers designed it to work. Oh and you can use the SR compressor with some custom lines from the KA left overs. I should know cause that is what I run. Cost me about a 150 bucks to have them made.


Why does the alternator solution miss the mark? beacuse you can run a big alternator without a hack job kit, or paying someone to weld you one?

Keep trying. I've got all day. It's guys like you that ruin the community, not me. I've provided plenty of help, and met countless people locally who have personally thanked me for helping them. Who are you again?

I love a hater. Makes me feel better. What have you done to help the community?

Listen dude I know what you have done for the community. I run your manifold idea do I not. I just do not agree with all the information that you have posted. I am all about saving money but some corners should not be cut IMHO.

HemiCharger
05-09-2010, 08:25 PM
here a great thread on what V Power does for high performance cars

Shell V-Power? - Bob Is The Oil Guy (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1823258)

My valves and intake called me up the other day to thank me... They are very happy to be clean. They asked if I could call the chemists at Shell and pass on their regards. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/images/graemlins/default/LOL.gif

2fast4y0u
05-09-2010, 08:35 PM
ALRIGHT!!!!!!!!
ENOUGH FUCKING AROUND!!!!!!!!!!!

LETS GET BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND.

NO ONE CARES WHOS DICK IS BIGGER HERE. FRANKLY ITS MINE :)

this thread wasnt started for us to discuss which fuel is better, or to bash each other.
any way, i have a SERIOIUS issue with my fuel pump after installing new rom tune chips.

sorry, i didnt mean to start yelling at everyone, but bringing up shit about something that some one else sells and has been selling for awhile is just petty and childish.
lets put this other shit aside and get back to the topic at hand.
if you want to start a which fuel is better thread, then do so.

HemiCharger
05-09-2010, 08:45 PM
ALRIGHT!!!!!!!!
ENOUGH FUCKING AROUND!!!!!!!!!!!

LETS GET BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND.

NO ONE CARES WHOS DICK IS BIGGER HERE. FRANKLY ITS MINE :)

this thread wasnt started for us to discuss which fuel is better, or to bash each other.
any way, i have a SERIOIUS issue with my fuel pump after installing new rom tune chips.

sorry, i didnt mean to start yelling at everyone, but bringing up shit about something that some one else sells and has been selling for awhile is just petty and childish.
lets put this other shit aside and get back to the topic at hand.
if you want to start a which fuel is better thread, then do so.

Ok. Done -- new engine tech thread in 3...2....1....

2fast4y0u
05-09-2010, 08:48 PM
we arent starting a new thread about this same topic...just take the redonkulous banter somewhere else

and thank you.

mattsil80wis
05-12-2010, 09:27 AM
Yeah I dynoed with V-Power at 311 foot lbs of torque within like 10 of where you were with all your supper dupper tuning.


what does that have to do with anything? Anyone that has a gt2871r should be in that torque range with similar mods....Did you forget that he also makes 60+ more hp than you?


and you saying that running V-power in sr20s leave the rear bumper clean is a lie...all i run in this s13 is v-power and my rear bumper was covered so your point is invalid


anyway....just got a carbon fiber hood and bricks with hids, swapping my brothers slicks from his mustang rims to some 4 lugs that i have and im going to the track soon...hoping for low 11s at 120-125ish

2jz1989240sxhott
05-12-2010, 10:10 AM
ENT vrs jwt , ENTHALPY!

mattsil80wis
05-12-2010, 01:32 PM
ENT vrs jwt , ENTHALPY!


thanks for that useless piece of information

you and hemicharger must be friends

2fast4y0u
05-12-2010, 08:35 PM
what does that have to do with anything? Anyone that has a gt2871r should be in that torque range with similar mods....Did you forget that he also makes 60+ more hp than you?


and you saying that running V-power in sr20s leave the rear bumper clean is a lie...all i run in this s13 is v-power and my rear bumper was covered so your point is invalid


anyway....just got a carbon fiber hood and bricks with hids, swapping my brothers slicks from his mustang rims to some 4 lugs that i have and im going to the track soon...hoping for low 11s at 120-125ish

thanks for that useless piece of information

you and hemicharger must be friends


why are you trying to stir up shit again? i know you can read because you have made your opinions clear so far.
stop the bull shit and get to the topic at hand..no inut, DONT POST. :goyou:

codyace
05-12-2010, 09:30 PM
You say nothing is added after the distribution point where all stations get there gas from.

This implies that every gas station essentially has the same fuel?

Obviously things are added, but my point was that the gas can easily sit there for a long time...and mixtures can certainly be different as well. To say V power at My local station is the exact same as yours is a far cry. Mine could be stale/improperly mixed, etc etc. Let it also be known that different trucks at times (well tankers) can carry the gas. Do you think they are always kept 'v power only'?


My point was that 93 in itself must meet a certain amount of 'requirements' in order to sell. So that country road station having 93 meets XYZ, just like Shell V Power does. Heck I run some country road gas for a few track days (namely up at Watkins Glen) without any issue. So for a car (of any type, not just HemiCharger) to be so 'ragged edge tuned' that it only runs well on specific fuel brand, is both unsafe, unrealistic, and most of all rediculous. This is a sign of a tuner who isn't letting ANY margin for error in a tune, something that I think we can all agree upon is not the way to be. Nissan isn't handing out any Trophies for a guy running 330 hp on the ragged edge ya know? No reason to push it, as ultimatly who does it really impress?

This is why ROM tunes from JWT or Enthalpy work great as they are not tuned on the edge of safety; they dont' require specific fuel brand, they don't require this or that...they just work.


Yeah I dynoed with V-Power at 311 foot lbs of torque within like 10 of where you were with all your supper dupper tuning.

This post pretty much sums up my point of this thread. You didn't even get close to my ROM tune, which was tuned by someone 3000 mils away, who never even SAW my car. The same with the car I made this thread about, as we had two tuners both 3000 miles (well Enthalpy may be 1500 or so) both make more power and torque than a Standalone did.

This should show everyone how close, reliable, and similar these ECU's are. This should also go to show that just because your car has a standalone, or is tuned by a 'professional' does not mean it will make the most power, safe power, or a combination of the two. For the most part, every 28RS/2871r+ car will make 310-340 ft lbs without issue on a pump gas tune...it's just what they make. The different always seems to be in the HP department with these cars.

I am not saying that everyone should go out and get a rom tune; there are cars that simply are beyond their capability, as well as cars below the threshold for them. But for anyone looking to make 250-450 whp, the ROM setups we have available to the 240 crowd (and Nissan crowd in general) are phenomenal. Heck, even the ECU's tuned overseas by the larger tuning shops are known to make good power (in Japan) without ever being specifically tuned on the car.


So much like I had asked you MANY posts ago (one you probably misread, much like every other time I asked), I am not interested in your car's standalone tune in this thread...especially with it not even being in the same breath as Enthalpy/Secret Services, or Jim Wolf Technology tuned ECU's. This thread was to serve as a showcase/example to everyone that making a solid 380-410 whp is easily replicated with our setups, with either ECU on the Market. That is all. I don't like to get into 'flame fests' or 'insult threads' but when you post from what you've read, and I post from experience, it makes it hard to ever have a conversation. I'm not a resident expert, but my experience with these cars far surpasses yours. I do not think I am better than you because of this, or anything of that sort. I just wish you'd take this thread as an opportunity to learn. I'm not sure what got you on this fuel thing, but it's hilarious to say the least (especially where you said V power won't smoke up a back bumper LOL). I always run 93 - I just don't care what brand it is - I just suggest others to tune safely, smartly, and without constricting a car.



our knock sensors are sensitive and picked up an oil plate rattle as knock on my car.

I know; I've said that in this thread. This is why they are turned off past 4k.




no point other than I like me stuff to work like the Nissan engineers designed it to work. Oh and you can use the SR compressor with some custom lines from the KA left overs. I should know cause that is what I run. Cost me about a 150 bucks to have them made.

You spent 35 bucks extra to have the same thing. It's all good though. Hopefully the dirty/oil impregnated lines don't have issues with the welds, as even a professional can't promise their won't be an issue. Trust me, if that way was the easy/no issue way, I'd be having them made for everybody. Bottom line is, an adapterbracket with factory lines and compressors always works. Funny how you trust Nissan Engineers with your AC, but allow a 'regular joe' to tune your car. Just keep that in the back of your mind. Not saying your buddy can't tune, but its' not a Nissan Engineer or Motorsports Tuner...like my ECU.

mattsil80wis
05-12-2010, 09:42 PM
why are you trying to stir up shit again? i know you can read because you have made your opinions clear so far.
stop the bull shit and get to the topic at hand..no inut, DONT POST. :goyou:


im not trying to start anything...its just tired of reading information that is a waste of time in this thread

HemiCharger
05-12-2010, 10:56 PM
I am not tuned on the ragged edge like cody would like you all to believe. My A/F ratios were and are well within the safe range and I only pinged on some bad gas that I picked up from a BP station in another state. This could have happened to anyone in the 240 community. Turning off a knock sensor past 4 grand is just not smart but who am I to talk. Happy ROM tune thread cause I am not posting here again. My tuner is excellent and good and I trust him. So, no more posting in this thread draw your own conclusions.

codyace
05-12-2010, 11:25 PM
I am not tuned on the ragged edge like cody would like you all to believe. My A/F ratios were and are well within the safe range and I only pinged on some bad gas that I picked up from a BP station in another state. This could have happened to anyone in the 240 community. Turning off a knock sensor past 4 grand is just not smart but who am I to talk. Happy ROM tune thread cause I am not posting here again. My tuner is excellent and good and I trust him. So, no more posting in this thread draw your own conclusions.

Posts like this are pretty easy to determine who knows what they are talking about, and just further prove how much you have to learn yet. I'm glad you trust your tuner. I'd be upset it doesn't make as much power as these ROM cars do, but that's just me.

Again, consider these points. This is just good solid information foreveryone considering these tunes for the car, and their alternatives.

If a car 'pings' on random 93, it's got to much timing. JWT and Enthalpy ECU's dont' do that

AFR has NOTHING to do with detonation. 11.3 @ WOT with 28 degres will melt a piston. Much like 12.7 @ WOT with 10 degrees of timing won't pop a motor either. I'd rather make power with boost and fuel, not timing. Once again, ROM tunes are safe in this area as their timing maps are very conservative, yet their fuel is a bit on the safe side. I'll always be a fan of big fuel big boost low timing. I'd rather potentially lift a head with 35 psi than shatter a piston making the same power at 25 psi by keeping it hot.

You just said your knock sensor picks up phantom knock. What good is that when you have a safe tune, yet picks up the timing chain rattle and confuses it for knock, which brings back power potential? There are easily 3000+ cars out there with JWT tunes on all sorts of Nissans...I'm certain Enthalpy has tuned a huge amount as well...I'd trust them and what they decide is safe or not safe.

Remember, AFR/Knock count are just 'tools' used in tuning -- they should NEVER be trusted 100% or followed as gospel.

I'm not claiming a standalone CAN'T make more power reliably...that's not my claim at all. I know for a fact their are 425+ guys (hell look at this thread alone with 4x4lx for example). It is possible to make even more power, but that comes with knowledge, and experience. Again, the example in here with what is possible with some more timing/e85 on stock cams is incredible...just goes to show everyone how much timing affects power.




Remember, at the end of the day, reliability is the biggest concern out of any car I play with. I'd always take a few HP off peak to keep it reliable 'just in case' The world's a strange place anymore...I'd rather side with caution/safety than the dynograph wars

Slidin' Sam
05-13-2010, 01:53 AM
Wow! This thread got REALLY intense. Last time I read it, we were talking about the difference in tunes between JWT and Enthalpy, right?...while this fuel debate is a good topic for everyone to research and discuss, can we put it in a different thread?

sirfallsalot243
05-13-2010, 07:55 AM
I think its all good information, even though its gone OT. Its like mythbusters. Hemicharger gives us the myth, and Cody BUSTS it. haha.

I dont have an issue with a thread going offtopic if the topic still has good information, which this thread is loaded with.

HemiCharger
05-13-2010, 08:18 AM
I think its all good information, even though its gone OT. Its like mythbusters. Hemicharger gives us the myth, and Cody BUSTS it. haha.

I dont have an issue with a thread going offtopic if the topic still has good information, which this thread is loaded with.

you know what all you nickel and dimer douche bags who do not have the money or the time to do their cars the right way and end up blowing up their POS s13s up deserve what you get. It is shit talkers like you all following some other idiot who thinks they know everything that gives this community such a bad rap. I have ran my car a lot longer than cody ricer and I have NEVER EVER blown it up or melted a piston. I remember calling the ROM tuners before I bought my Apexi and was so impressed that I decided to spend 2 - 3 times as much to make less power. Sure? I am not as modified engine wise as most of you all. I do not run 11 or 11.5 degree cams so I should not make as much up top. So keep spending 10 dollars for a bracket 300 dollars for a tune and keep having the bracket vibrate and slide loose and run your canned tune based off somebody's setup for as long as it does not blow up your car. Their is no changing your minds that is why I decided not to post in this thread and then you continue to attack with your misinformation and pure stupidity.

Turn off a knock sensor cause it picks up timing chain rattle come on? If you knock sensor is picking up timing chain rattle then you have something else going on. I bet my car is still running when codyace's shit is melted and blown up and setting in his know everything's tuners garage. Prue and utter stupidity.

sirfallsalot243
05-13-2010, 08:27 AM
you know what all you nickel and dimer douche bags who do not have the money or the time to do their cars the right way and end up blowing up their POS s13s up deserve what you get. It is shit talkers like you all following some other idiot who thinks they know everything that gives this community such a bad rap.

To the outside person, its VERY easy to see who in this thread knows what theyre talking about and who doesnt. You have SOME knowledge about cars, but youre incredibly narrow-minded. You keep insisting on making this a standalone vs rom tune discussion, which isnt what Cody was trying to do here at all. YES, a standalone can do more than a rom tune. The point he was making (ie, the point that you keep missing, over and over again) is that GREAT RESULTS can be had from a ROM tune WITHOUT spending a lot of money. Whether or not we have the money for standalone is irrelevant. The point hes making is that you dont NEED to spend that $1500 on a PFC when your goals are only in the 400whp range.

I dont have the money to do my car the right way? My last car was a fully built NATURALLY ASPIRATED 1.8L that made 200whp on a dynojet, with AEM EMS. You think youve got money into your car, try an NA setup. Dont tell me I'm too poor to do things the right way. I'm just not going to throw my money away on a standalone ECU when its WAY OVERKILL for what I'm trying to do.

I thought you werent posting in here anymore? Seriously, Ill paypal you $10. Just stfu. Each argument you make, each time you cut Cody down, just shows how obvious it is that youre reaching for anything to make your point valid. His A/C brackets are tried and true. Youre just attacking them because in a real technical discussion, you get your ass handed to you time and time again. Seriously. Just stop.

HemiCharger
05-13-2010, 08:48 AM
Wow! This thread got REALLY intense. Last time I read it, we were talking about the difference in tunes between JWT and Enthalpy, right?...while this fuel debate is a good topic for everyone to research and discuss, can we put it in a different thread?


it is in a different thread under Engine Tech

jspaeth
05-13-2010, 10:05 AM
I just want to point out that in my LIMITED EXPERIENCE WITH MY CAR, the OEM knock sensor is working VERY well for me.

I have a PFC....with stock head, I would see typical knock counts of 10-12 or less when getting on it.

Occasinally (due to piston slap I think) at very high RPM when hitting fuel cut or in between hard shifts, I would see it spike to like 50 or 60 for a SPLIT second.


After installing my bigger cams and stiffer valve springs, I now see it go up to around 20 on normal driving at high RPM....this is normal.

ONE time, I overboosted and actually heard the engine knock (only a little bit for a second).

Sure enough, the knock sensor read in the 70s.

That being said, I believe MY knock sensor (OEM) on MY setup is working just fine. I feel that I have driven the car enough that I know that knock of 20 or less is just drivetrain noise.

codyace
05-13-2010, 12:03 PM
I have ran my car a lot longer than cody icer and I have NEVER EVER blown it up or melted a piston.

This engine has nearly 15 HPDE days on it without issue, That's nearly 2 to 3 hours of WOT, hard on and off, downshifting, big water temps, etc etc. No issues. Think what you want about how great your car is, and I'll remember when I'm going 150 at the Glen, and then getting on the binders to 60, only to get going 110 again into the boot. I'll also think about it when I drive my car home from the track.


Turn off a knock sensor cause it picks up timing chain rattle come on? If you knock sensor is picking up timing chain rattle then you have something else going on. I bet my car is still running when codyace's shit is melted and blown up and setting in his know everything's tuners garage. Prue and utter stupidity.

I don't have a tuners garage. I built this myself. From the rod bearings to the coilover gland nuts, and from the Roll bar to the alignment. Trust me kid, the car's beyond your capability, so why even talk shit. If you feel the need to put my car down, or say how shitty it is, I'll cover your gas to drive out here for a track day to compare. Get that last word in, you really need it. How's it feel to be the laughing stock of the thread?

codyace
05-13-2010, 12:20 PM
I just want to point out that in my LIMITED EXPERIENCE WITH MY CAR, the OEM knock sensor is working VERY well for me.

The knock sensors do work well, but the problem is - they often work too well. I'd say darn near worse than LSx/3800 ones. They are certainly a valuable tool, but in the same respect also nothing to base everything from. With that said, I do know a few guys that only roll by the knock...essentially make power till it pings ya know.

As with anything, there is no perfect way. The thing is, (and you know this especially as you do a very good job of troubleshooting for sure, unlike most haha) the best thing to do is get all the information, and decide which is best from there, never staying 'bias'.

2fast4y0u
05-13-2010, 09:06 PM
i dont have time to comments on the shit that was posted before until tomorrow...

Heres something i dont think has been mentioned, maybe it has:
Rom tune theres only minor tuning if any when you get a new part. you dont have to do start it and "hope" it runs and possibly be running super rich/lean and harm your setup.
i know that when i get a new part, install it, get my new rom tune...i can just start my car and drive the shit out of it. one check with the wide band and im good to go.

4x4le
05-16-2010, 02:35 AM
cody, I now wish I was talking shit this entire thread because I would have taken you up on your offer. You know, the one about covering gas to run at the Glen... I guess Ill have to dream on!
Just dont get me that cheap stuff because I dont want to be detenating the whole way. I want 93 shell with v-power additive that is enhanced with nitrogen and keeps my valves clean because it comes from the tops of the fuel tanks and is actually rated at a higher octane than advertised.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
^^^^ Is a joke in case people didnt notice.

And enhanced with nitrogen...... To me, nitrogen is nothing. It does not burn, it does not change pressure with temperature and it is a gas. If anything this tells me that gas particles are displacing liquid volume thus giving you less gas when you pump (if it indeed actually has it in it in the first place. Nitrogen is the fanciest way to say NOTHING, because if there is a element that is nothing it is nitrogen. The air we breathe is 78% nitrogen, why should we add a few more particles to our gas? Is that little bit going to get the valves that much cleaner than the nitrogen in the air is going to get them anyways?
I bet 3 years ago hemi charger was on the forums preaching about the tornado fuel saver. ZOMG!!!!11 IT SPINS THE AIR MIXING THE FUEL BETTAR!!!1

R.S. Enthalpy
05-28-2010, 12:50 AM
I finally took a look at this thread and the logs... although my 20 psi log stops at 4900 rpm.. I would like to see the MAF values which kind of tell the story of how consistent the boost controller is between runs. I was hoping for AFR plots as well in the drf files, which are not there... That is kind of crucial in comparing tunes.


I have a ton of these kinds of comparo dyno charts my customers have sent in after I did their ecus... but I don't post stuff like this.. it entices too much forum drama.


R.S. Enthalpy

mattsil80wis
05-28-2010, 09:07 AM
I finally took a look at this thread and the logs... although my 20 psi log stops at 4900 rpm.. I would like to see the MAF values which kind of tell the story of how consistent the boost controller is between runs. I was hoping for AFR plots as well in the drf files, which are not there... That is kind of crucial in comparing tunes.


I have a ton of these kinds of comparo dyno charts my customers have sent in after I did their ecus... but I don't post stuff like this.. it entices too much forum drama.


R.S. Enthalpy

i will have cody email you the other datalogs that we have for the car too

we never touched the boost controller between runs other than to turn it off (10psi) and to turn it on to high boost (20psi)

afrs was 11.3-11.8 range for both ecus

thanks again for helping me out with everything on this car...i tell everyone about how great you guys are and how helpful you have been through this whole process

g6civcx
05-28-2010, 09:32 AM
codyace, your car sucks ass. I'll bring mine up and you can run me at your favourite short track.

I predict... double DNF!!!

codyace
05-29-2010, 11:18 PM
I finally took a look at this thread and the logs... although my 20 psi log stops at 4900 rpm.. I would like to see the MAF values which kind of tell the story of how consistent the boost controller is between runs. I was hoping for AFR plots as well in the drf files, which are not there... That is kind of crucial in comparing tunes.

I'm actually working right now on a setup through and LC1 that will allow me to input a 3 bar map sensor, to get boost per RPM, and true AFR. Trust me, if I can do anything, it's to help you and clark out, to make some sweet stuff.


I have a ton of these kinds of comparo dyno charts my customers have sent in after I did their ecus... but I don't post stuff like this.. it entices too much forum drama.

R.S. Enthalpy

I really have no clue why it didn't log your run past - I didn't even notice that. I'll dig back through tomorrow on my laptop (damn you dogfish head) to find a few logs from before.

If it comes down to it, I'll make matt throw in the tune and run it again

And yes, I can understand thd drama around this -- again I never would have imagined it, until my PM box blew up. F me.

(ps: manifold works awesome yet :D Thanks again Scott )

(pps: i just found two eprom chips in my desk drawer, I'll be mailing them back to you asap, as i didn't realize we even had them)




codyace, your car sucks ass. I'll bring mine up and you can run me at your favourite short track.

I predict... double DNF!!!

Hahahah! SBC can never loooooooose!!!! Damn you and that short track stipulation, even my 4.6 FD can't pull ya hahah.

(If I do get down to VIR this year, you better bring your ass up ;) )

g6civcx
05-31-2010, 06:53 PM
Hahahah! SBC can never loooooooose!!!! Damn you and that short track stipulation, even my 4.6 FD can't pull ya hahah.

(If I do get down to VIR this year, you better bring your ass up ;) )

Lucky for you I am running full street setup this year. I got sick of running ragged on a tin can.

Full 10-pt rollcage, full extra thick insulation, sub, amp, speakers. Everything.

I'm probably carrying an extra 300 pounds this season, but it's worth it since I'm using it as my DD now.

Power is the same so I'll be considerably slower than seasons past.

You may have a chance :D

codyace
06-01-2010, 11:08 AM
Lucky for you I am running full street setup this year. I got sick of running ragged on a tin can.

Full 10-pt rollcage, full extra thick insulation, sub, amp, speakers. Everything.

I'm probably carrying an extra 300 pounds this season, but it's worth it since I'm using it as my DD now.

Power is the same so I'll be considerably slower than seasons past.

You may have a chance :D


Are you telling me I need to buy a remote switch for my boost controller? hehe. I'll revert to "squirt and park" driving haha

I really would love a ride in a sorted (like your car) v8 track 240...anyone I've been in have been really unsorted/hacked. The FD's I've been in (granted awesome to start with) are always much more fun.

g6civcx
06-01-2010, 12:31 PM
What is "sorted" vs. "unsorted/hacked"?

Most of the work I've done was drivetrain and chassis. The suspension geometry is pretty much stock other than coils.

I need better brakes and rubber so I'm hoping to get those this year.

Ghost240
06-01-2010, 03:38 PM
wow i've never seen cody get vicious in a thread before haha. I like it.

codyace
06-01-2010, 04:56 PM
What is "sorted" vs. "unsorted/hacked"?

Most of the work I've done was drivetrain and chassis. The suspension geometry is pretty much stock other than coils.

I need better brakes and rubber so I'm hoping to get those this year.

Most of the 240 v8 cars I've been in barely run, and are poorly put together. I would assume yours is not haha.

wow i've never seen cody get vicious in a thread before haha. I like it.

I really don't like getting caught up in forum bullshit, as it ultimately brings down the entire thread

g6civcx
06-01-2010, 05:01 PM
Mine can run all day without overheating or blowing up if I drive it. I don't know about if other people drive it hardcore mad drift style.

nissanfreak317
06-01-2010, 10:41 PM
Wowser, I started reading this thread to learn a bit more about ROM tunes and now i have a migraine the likes of which could only be caused by a truck running on 93 octane Shell V-Power gas. Seriously, 8 pages. I have never seen so much patience demonstrated on Zilvia towards any one member in a single thread. Anyways, i'm not even going to ask any of the questions i thought of while reading this. Haha, I'm going to bed but i'll probably pm codyace about some stuff later this week...

codyace
06-01-2010, 11:16 PM
I tried my best to deal with him (as we all did) but sometimes you can't help everyone. Hopefully his short banning may wisen him up to how it works in reality.

Hope to see that PM soon :D


Again guys, this thread was supposed to be about how we have two great tuners producing ROM runes for us, that work very well out of the box. Not a single one of you should be hesitant to purchase either tune, because in reality, both work great. Sure we could have a crazy 'retune' battle, but the point is - not every car is the same. I mean, it's pretty obvious that a well setup car will make great power regardless of it being Enthalpy and or JWT. I mean jeepers, this car traps 120mph....that's proof in the pudding if you ask me...hell most 30r guys here with 'drag' cars have a hard time doing that...and here are two T2 guys doing it without issue.

RS Enthalpy, and JWT are two of the best things our community could have - there is no reason to have this 'debate' of what is better, as it's pretty freakin obvious that both will make awesome power. Sure you will always have examples of cars having seperate issues amongst both tunes, but the reality is, that 15 hp is 'nothing' between two dynos. Trap speeds are the true 'check' for speed, as you can't deny physics.

g6civcx
06-02-2010, 09:47 AM
Not a single one of you should be hesitant to purchase either tune, because in reality, both work great. Sure we could have a crazy 'retune' battle, but the point is - not every car is the same

Designing a fuel/timing map is not easy. Every single car is unique based on the combination of parts installed on the engine.

Even if you have the exact same setup, the application determines how much tuning needs to be done.

There is no "perfect" out of the box tune. Everything relies on the skills of the person doing the tuning.


Anyone who expects a plug-n-play tune at this level would be wise to learn how a basic ROM map works. There are literally infinite ways to tune a car.

codyace
06-02-2010, 10:21 AM
Designing a fuel/timing map is not easy. Every single car is unique based on the combination of parts installed on the engine.

Even if you have the exact same setup, the application determines how much tuning needs to be done.

There is no "perfect" out of the box tune. Everything relies on the skills of the person doing the tuning.


Anyone who expects a plug-n-play tune at this level would be wise to learn how a basic ROM map works. There are literally infinite ways to tune a car.

I certainly agree to the 'perfect' aspect of things but the point is, neither of these ROM tunes is going to be responsible for blowing the car up, and these power levels.

My point was, both will work well. Perfect? Probably not. Good enough? I'd say for sure. I mean in the grand scheme of things, if we start adding up all of the 'shortcuts' on a car, no body would even want to drive them :D

g6civcx
06-02-2010, 10:32 AM
I certainly agree to the 'perfect' aspect of things but the point is, neither of these ROM tunes is going to be responsible for blowing the car up, and these power levels.

I didn't follow the argument, but if someone blames a ROM tune for blowing up the engine should blame the person doing the tuning.

If it's a DIYer attempting to install a base map, then it's completely your fault.

If it's an experienced tuner that blew the engine, then talk to them and see what went wrong.

codyace
06-02-2010, 12:48 PM
I didn't follow the argument, but if someone blames a ROM tune for blowing up the engine should blame the person doing the tuning.

If it's a DIYer attempting to install a base map, then it's completely your fault.

If it's an experienced tuner that blew the engine, then talk to them and see what went wrong.

I think we're agreeing hehe.

The thread got derailed by HemiCharger saying this D Jetro was best, even though it makes terrible power, and pings on anything but one brand of gas. All we tried to explain to him, is that a JWT or Enthalpy ECU for a car (and right mods) is better than a inexperienced tuner with a standalone.

2fast4y0u
06-02-2010, 08:36 PM
easiest way to put it.
i know nothing, NOTHING about tuning. i have an afc that i can bring my afr's to the level they need to be. setting base timing and dialing things in is something i have just started learning in that last week.
if i had to do that from scratch, and install new sensor just to use something, i wouldnt do it.
i bought an aem ems and have had it for 3 years now and never installed it. bought a rom tune ecu and got to drive my car for the first time in 2 years...WORTH IT!!!

i have said it before and i will say it again, i have an Enthalpy rom tune and love it. i have dealt with JWT back in the day (about 5 years ago) and loved the service i got from them. honestly didnt even cross my mind when it came time to get my rom tune.
I also cant believe the service i have received from Enthalpy. Late night wrenchin on my car and my phone rings...Its Martin with enthalpy checking to see if i have it running yet. Dude is super cool, willing to help and KNOWS HIS SHIT!

just my $.02
kthanksbye

jspaeth
06-02-2010, 08:44 PM
easiest way to put it.
i know nothing, NOTHING about tuning. i have an afc that i can bring my afr's to the level they need to be. setting base timing and dialing things in is something i have just started learning in that last week.
if i had to do that from scratch, and install new sensor just to use something, i wouldnt do it.
i bought an aem ems and have had it for 3 years now and never installed it. bought a rom tune ecu and got to drive my car for the first time in 2 years...WORTH IT!!!

i have said it before and i will say it again, i have an Enthalpy rom tune and love it. i have dealt with JWT back in the day (about 5 years ago) and loved the service i got from them. honestly didnt even cross my mind when it came time to get my rom tune.
I also cant believe the service i have received from Enthalpy. Late night wrenchin on my car and my phone rings...Its Martin with enthalpy checking to see if i have it running yet. Dude is super cool, willing to help and KNOWS HIS SHIT!

just my $.02
kthanksbye


Imagine if you knew what the hell you were doing! You could input the Enthalpy or JWT tune into the Standalone and then make some corrections to make things even better and get ever better gas mileage.

2fast4y0u
06-02-2010, 08:49 PM
yeah no shit right...some day, some day.

im in no hurry to tackle that yet. im just happy my car runs and runs decent.
although, un-related topic but figure i would share....
i took it to the strip the other night. car had some issues, but no excuses here. its mainly driver failure.
my best time was 14.225 at 101.98 mph
did my burn out, used my launch controller. hooked leaving the line, but no more the 60ft out, tires just light up..get out of the fuel, get back in it and play catch up to everyone. next race is July 2nd so i have some time to learn to drag my car.

let the flaming begin..

jspaeth
06-02-2010, 08:55 PM
yeah no shit right...some day, some day.

im in no hurry to tackle that yet. im just happy my car runs and runs decent.
although, un-related topic but figure i would share....
i took it to the strip the other night. car had some issues, but no excuses here. its mainly driver failure.
my best time was 14.225 at 101.98 mph
did my burn out, used my launch controller. hooked leaving the line, but no more the 60ft out, tires just light up..get out of the fuel, get back in it and play catch up to everyone. next race is July 2nd so i have some time to learn to drag my car.

let the flaming begin..

Yeah it just takes practice.

With stock SR swap and flywheel on street tires, I went 13.3 at 100 mph with a 1.93 60'.

Now I have like 375 whp or so and a lightweight flywheel and just can't launch it anymore....

Best is 13.1 @ 112 with a 2.3 60'.

2fast4y0u
06-02-2010, 08:58 PM
dude same shit..
basically stock setup, 13.4 @ 103 with a 2.6 60ft.

now i have a built monster, hp unknown but i cant hook for shit. well i can hook, i can t keep em from spinning on the track.
i still need your help with that boost controller, which i got and have procrastinated installing.

jamanrr
06-02-2010, 09:22 PM
boy ole boy this HemiCharger guy sure sounded like a DOPE. I run standalone as well. Can you download these tunes into your standalone?

jspaeth
06-02-2010, 09:30 PM
boy ole boy this HemiCharger guy sure sounded like a DOPE. I run standalone as well. Can you download these tunes into your standalone?


No, not that I know of.... i meant if you had the software to open them or new how to view the maps and corrections, you could easily manually put them into a standalone and then tinker away

Blacklines86
06-14-2010, 11:16 PM
Codyace, I think you have a great recipe for a 400hp ride. Do you think adding a wastegate would have any added benefit, perhaps a little faster spool? Keep up the good work man, I am going to follow your reccomendations closely when I start my engine build.

mattsil80wis
06-15-2010, 11:21 AM
Codyace, I think you have a great recipe for a 400hp ride. Do you think adding a wastegate would have any added benefit, perhaps a little faster spool? Keep up the good work man, I am going to follow your reccomendations closely when I start my engine build.

we have a tial 38mm wg welded onto the stock manifold

heres a pic of what it looks like

http://www.codyace.com/albums/album281/matt032010_20.sized.jpg

Blacklines86
06-15-2010, 06:37 PM
A question about the turbo, most estimates I have seen put the 2871R's output at 350-385hp. You guys are running it at 400+, are they underrated, and wouldn't pushing them towards the upper limits of thier output be hard on the turbine?

mattsil80wis
06-16-2010, 02:08 PM
A question about the turbo, most estimates I have seen put the 2871R's output at 350-385hp. You guys are running it at 400+, are they underrated, and wouldn't pushing them towards the upper limits of thier output be hard on the turbine?


depends on the setup of the motor

we are only running 20psi which is in the efficancy range of the turbo

but with properly matched cams and having two great tuners...that is how the power is made

Choku_Dorian
06-16-2010, 02:34 PM
this is rad.

I am running almost identical setup, with enthalpy tune. just the s4 cams...

Blacklines86
06-16-2010, 06:34 PM
Thanks for answering my questions, I appreciate it. I went back and looked at the first page, and I saw that it was already stated the setup included an external wastegate. After reading the 8 pages in this thread, I must have forgot.

What is your opinion of knife edging the crank? There is a service called "butcher crank" that does this, and takes 7 lbs. off in the process. Would this be beneficial to this setup, or is it too much material to take off? Would a less aggressive knife edge and a balance be better?

Assuming one were to do the agressive knife edging, how would additional lightening of the drive train affect preformance, such as lightened flywheel, carbon or aluminum drive shaft, etc?

Im aware of the rotational mass discussion, but the arguments go back and forth, so I'm not sure what to believe about this issue.

Any thought or opinions?

2fast4y0u
06-16-2010, 09:01 PM
i can say this from a user point of view...i HATE my fidanza flywheel. weighs 8 lbs and it is the worst part i have ever bought for my car, hands down

i know u r gonna ask why, so i will tell u now. hard to street drive, replaceable faces sounds like a great thing...SUCKS! they r to thing and they heat up fast and get all spotty. that makes it eve worse to drive. Fidanza doesnt stock that part and they make it to order, so getting them is never easy.
just my $.02

Blacklines86
06-16-2010, 09:07 PM
Actually, thats exactly the type of feedback I am looking for. People that have experience with using these kind of parts, and not just talking out of thier ass.

Lots of opinions, but little experience.

Thanks man.

mattsil80wis
06-16-2010, 10:01 PM
i run a lightened flywheel and an aluminum drive shaft and i dont really mind driving it....i am running a JWT 11lb flywheel, but i like it


i have no experience with changing the crank shaft....the idea is great and makes sense, but than you have to take into consideration how it changes the rest of the rotation assembly...as in getting it balanced and everything else....is the price of doing all that really worth the benefits of a few hp?...i cant imagine it being that great

codyace
06-16-2010, 10:12 PM
I wouldn't worry about doing any sort of exotic bottom end work, this side of a race car. I mean that's not to mean it 'will hurt' it's just not needed for any street oriented car.

I'd also say save that money and focus on keeping the rest of a car in good shape - I'd sooner save that money and put it towards larger brakes or upgraded tires instead of the 5-6 whp you may see.


Edit: While I do appreciate good questions, lets try to keep this discussion about the rom tunes, no so much individual setups. I'll be glad to answer PM's and also suggest you places for other information as well. Remember the best 'answer' involves the best research - no single person has the best information on everything.

Blacklines86
06-16-2010, 11:11 PM
Edit: While I do appreciate good questions, lets try to keep this discussion about the rom tunes, no so much individual setups. I'll be glad to answer PM's and also suggest you places for other information as well. Remember the best 'answer' involves the best research - no single person has the best information on everything.


I understand the reason you started this thread, and I apologize for cluttering it with off topic questions. Unforunately, I bring nothing to the table discussing rom tunes.

However, I was looking for clarification about the way you have your engine and drivetrain built. I think you have a very solid map to a 400hp street machine, and I respect your knowledge.

In the future I will keep to the topic, and stick to PM's for off topic material.

Thanks for your answers, I appreciate it.