Iraq / Afghanistan

[SimpleS14]

Ok guys, here's the place to discuss what you think about either situation.


Make sure to follow forum rules.

[zylvia213]

what about them 2 places????

[Agamemnon]

Sheets of glass.

[MisawaJason]

I wish we were already finished in that part of the world

[driftking777]

sucks i totally understand why where there still. However i think we need to give them a date for our pull out. And just hold them to it. If the people dont stand up for themselves, we'll be there forever. And i like to think its not our problem (to an extent)

[JrockS13]

Well I dont know much about Afganistan but I'v been in Iraq for the last 11 months and 15 days (leaving in 3 days) and I belive we are at the point where we can finnaly give full control back to the Iraqi Government. With the 8 years we've put into training their Army and helping them form a positive political structure. It's time to let them take the wheel, and hopefully they won't F*** it up b/c that place sucks and I dont care to go back.

[AznDrftr.]

im actually tryin to go oversea for contract work between the two, but my friends dad is in Iraq, said that was the safer place than Afghan.

[ronmcdon]

Well I'm certainly not optimistic about Afghanistan (nor the region in general).
Wish we could gtfo, but that's not going to happen anytime soon.

[HalveBlue]

Our biggest problem in Afghanistan currently, and in Iraq previously, has been an inadequate and inappropriate strategy for the task at hand.

We're not fighting a war in these parts of the world, we're conducting a nation building exercises.

Unfortunately, our Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines are not properly trained for this type of mission. It's impossible to win "hearts and minds" (I know that term has become despised by now) through kinetic, direct action means.

While those means have made the US military probably the best military in the world when it comes to fighting conventional wars, it has done and absolutely dismal job in creating a trusting populace that will accept American assistance to build a stable nation.

Security is a key requirement before any sort of stability can be achieved.

Creating ROE that serve to both neutralize the threat at hand while not disillusioning the civilian populace is a very difficult task.

It's also the most important.

[S14_Kouki]

Dont know if anyone else seen or heard this. But Odama just put the word in to send 30,000 more troops over seas.

[ronmcdon]

Well it might help if you were a bit more specific about where the troops were sent, lol
Iraq? North Korea? Disneyland?

Afghan isn't going to be a walk in the park.
Either you get out, or you commit fully.
If you've decided to stay, it's hard to do well without a large force.

[HalveBlue]

Well it might help if you were a bit more specific about where the troops were sent, lol
Iraq? North Korea? Disneyland?

Well, considering the title of this thread (Iraq / Afghanistan) and the fact that this has been in the news for weeks now, I think it's safe to assume that S_14 Kouki was talking about Afghanistan.

[ESmorz]

Exxon-Led Consortium Wins Iraq Oil Contract - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704328104574516901231406262.html)

As for Afghanistan... I don't even care anymore. Send those blank checks to re-structure our education system (1 in 5 San Diegans cannot read), health care, alternative energy... but that would seem to defeat the point, wouldn't it?

[Vision Garage]

I thought we were suppose to pull out a while back. Before obama came into office. By the way, any military people care to chime in about what are we trying to accomplish out there?

[Sergio180sx]

My dad goes back to Afghan this sat and he said iraq is so chill now but afghan is still really bad

[ronmcdon]

Well, considering the title of this thread (Iraq / Afghanistan) and the fact that this has been in the news for weeks now, I think it's safe to assume that S_14 Kouki was talking about Afghanistan.

Could be a couple thousand here, couple thousand there.
We aren't out of Iraq yet and it's not like Iran isn't a concern.
I'm not assuming anything without legit sources.

[HalveBlue]

Well, here's a link to the full-length speech:

C-SPAN Video Player - Pres. Obama Address on Afghanistan (http://c-span.com/Watch/Media/2009/12/01/HP/A/26672/Pres+Obama+Address+on+Afghanistan.aspx)

Here's a link to the White House Press Release.

http://c-span.com/pdf/wh120109_obama3.pdf

Here's a link to an Army Times article:

Obama: 30,000 to Afghanistan by summer - Army News, news from Iraq, - Army Times (http://www.armytimes.com/news/2009/12/ap_afghanistan_plan_120109army/)

I doubt you'll find an exact breakdown of how those 30,000 additional troops will be comprised and deployed online; OPSEC.

From what I've been able to gather the majority of troops will consist of combat arms troops directly deployed to areas deemed as volatile and important by GEN McChrystal.

This will be concurrent with an influx in trainers for the ANA and ANSF training missions headed by CSTC-A.

[S14_Kouki]

I thought we were suppose to pull out a while back. Before obama came into office.

Thats what I heard Bush was talking about it like 2 years ago or so. But we all should know we cant count on the government to tell us the truth.

Well, here's a link to the full-length speech:

C-SPAN Video Player - Pres. Obama Address on Afghanistan (http://c-span.com/Watch/Media/2009/12/01/HP/A/26672/Pres+Obama+Address+on+Afghanistan.aspx)

Here's a link to the White House Press Release.

http://c-span.com/pdf/wh120109_obama3.pdf

Here's a link to an Army Times article:

Obama: 30,000 to Afghanistan by summer - Army News, news from Iraq, - Army Times (http://www.armytimes.com/news/2009/12/ap_afghanistan_plan_120109army/)

I doubt you'll find an exact breakdown of how those 30,000 additional troops will be comprised and deployed online; OPSEC.

From what I've been able to gather the majority of troops will consist of combat arms troops directly deployed to areas deemed as volatile and important by GEN McChrystal.

This will be concurrent with an influx in trainers for the ANA and ANSF training missions headed by CSTC-A.

thank you for the reply/links

[HalveBlue]

For anyone that's interested:



PBS Frontline: The Return of the Taliban (2006)

FRONTLINE: return of the taliban: watch the full program | PBS (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/taliban/view/main.html)


VBS.TV: Inside Afghanistan (Part1 of 2) (2008)

Inside Afghanistan 1 of 2 - VBS NEWS | VBS.TV (http://www.vbs.tv/watch/vbs-news/inside-afghanistan-1-of-2)


VBS.TV: Inside Afghanistan (Part 2 of 2)

Inside Afghanistan 2 of 2 - VBS NEWS | VBS.TV (http://www.vbs.tv/watch/vbs-news/inside-afghanistan-2-of-2)


PBS Frontline: The War Briefing (2008)

FRONTLINE: the war briefing: watch the full program | PBS (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warbriefing/view/)


VBS.TV: Obama's War (2009)

Obama's War - VBS NEWS | VBS.TV (http://www.vbs.tv/watch/vbs-news/obama-s-war)


PBS Frontline: Obama's War (2009)

FRONTLINE: obama's war: watch the full program online | PBS (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/obamaswar/view/?utm_campaign=homepage&utm_medium=proglist&utm_source=proglist)

[thrax]

Iraq: Will likely split up with Kurdistan becoming a separate state.
Afghanistan: US will eventually pull out with nothing gained as did all the other empires the last couple of centuries. US missed a good opportunity to improve the area after the CIA helped defeat the soviets. If they just spent a fraction of the coin developing the place back then Afghanistan might of been a non issue today.

[s13_redSILVIA]

Fuck afghan..got homies up there now :(

[HalveBlue]

If they just spent a fraction of the coin developing the place back then Afghanistan might of been a non issue today.

I largely agree with this - however, the issue (and solution) isn't as simple as that.

The biggest hindrance to development initiatives is a lack of stability and security.

It does you no good to build a marketplace for the people, if they're not going to use it for fear of getting blown up or shot.

Schools get built that no one uses, because after construction is finished and Coalition troops move on to another location leaving the place undefended. Inevitably, the Taliban (who watches our troops movements constantly) will show up after we leave and occupy or destroy the school building, doing various bad things to the people who attended or taught at the school.

Hell, we can't even use what passes as roads in Afghanistan, because their either mined or prone to ambushes.

[army240]

I've been to Afghanistan(Kandahar) as a mechanics from august 07 to end of february 08, and I'm suppose to go back there at the end of 2010.

As long as you don't go on the road, you're safe... I also been to Kabul one month, and it was a different game...

Anyway, I'm not really into politics...

Frank

[HalveBlue]

Anyway, I'm not really into politics...

Frank


"If you're not turned on to politics, politics will turn on you."

[RowdyU21]

I been here since February and I really don't know why we're still here...once we leave it's going to end up turning into the same shit it was before...For the most part they're killing themselves lately they still try and fuck with us but most of it is sectarian violence, a clear case of we'll go blow they're church up and tomorrow they'll come blow up ours...it's never gunna end they been fighting forever....

[Walperstyle]

Outside perspective; I never understood why you guys went into Iraq at all. At least with Afghanistan, it was already messed up with no real order, thus anything you do is an improvement.

I am glad to see human rights, schools starting to appear, and women rights in parts of Afghanistan. This is what I've heard from some Canadian friends there anyway.

Iraq at least had a dictator to create some kind of order. Now its Chaotic with everyone trying to get power.

"If you're not turned on to politics, politics will turn on you."

Yeah thats great in theory, but there is far too many opinions on the internet. We need better people in politics. People that worked for a living.

[HAWAII]

i want my friends back here at home. Why are we spending too much money with this stupid wars? How about use that money to fix our borders and our economy. Why to we have to police the world? I do not see Switzerland policing the world. They have different views and we have a diffirent view with life, let's respect each other's view.

[KA24DESOneThree]

I want the US out of both countries now. I do not care about the consequences or that "everything we fought for would be lost."

I do not care about any American in uniform who dies in either country during armed engagement.

I think some "terrorists" are really freedom fighters fighting for their countries back and I would support them if I gave a shit about their countries, which I don't.

First post in a few months. It'll do.

[lewisfk]

I want the US out of both countries now. I do not care about the consequences or that "everything we fought for would be lost."

I do not care about any American in uniform who dies in either country during armed engagement.

I think some "terrorists" are really freedom fighters fighting for their countries back and I would support them if I gave a shit about their countries, which I don't.

First post in a few months. It'll do.

!:mrmeph:REALLY THAT'S HOW U FEEL! So fuck the dead, fuck U! You don't know what I will do to you for your ignorant statements! Regardless of your opinion about the war and its outcome! It takes courage to put on a uniform and go to a foreign country and die for your beliefs!

[fliprayzin240sx]

Yup, all these fucking terrorists are freedom fighters that like to blow up their own people...

Your the same idiot that I wanna take with me into a fox hole so I can shoot you myself...

[ms!3]

I want the US out of both countries now. I do not care about the consequences or that "everything we fought for would be lost."

I do not care about any American in uniform who dies in either country during armed engagement.

I think some "terrorists" are really freedom fighters fighting for their countries back and I would support them if I gave a shit about their countries, which I don't.

First post in a few months. It'll do.

your always welcome to leave, guy.

[zeitgeist]

For Iraq Im not really sure what to think. Yeah everything is pretty good but if we leave Im afraid its just going to go to hell again making our efforts worthless.

But for afghaniland, I think its a waste of fucking time. Seriously if we miraculously did manage to kill all the insurgents, the country still wouldnt be able to function on its own. The terrain makes communication extremely difficult and the inhabitants arent going to kindly listen to some government just because. Its a country made up of tribes whom have made up their own rules for centuries. The US is going to have to continue to pay for the Afghan gov, army, police, education etc. because the afghans cant and prob wont pay for it.

Im sorry for all the people that have lost their lives and I do believe it is a noble fight but one just needs to know when to say enough is enough. No sense sending more people to die just because you want to honor fallen soldiers. We could have solved so many problems in this world with the money and manpower that has been wasted

[KA24DESOneThree]

!:mrmeph:REALLY THAT'S HOW U FEEL! So fuck the dead, fuck U! You don't know what I will do to you for your ignorant statements! Regardless of your opinion about the war and its outcome! It takes courage to put on a uniform and go to a foreign country and die for your beliefs!

You are letting your emotions guide your "argument." This is why dissent is no longer tolerated here in this country, because people will lay out those who engender negative emotions. Rationalize your position.

It takes courage to ignore the sovereignty of a nation and obey leaders' political agendas?

It takes courage to participate in a war where, since we've occupied the countries, tens of thousands (if not well over a hundred thousand) of innocent people have died by our hand and by those we've inflamed?

Look at the percentages and the numbers in this (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/17/AR2008041703595.html) news story. They are staggering.

I understand that a large portion of this board is military or military-affiliated. My purpose is not to piss off those people but express my opinion on this complete and total bullshit.

These wars are NOT right, are NOT just. Our leaders spent the American peoples' tax dollars to go "spread peace" through superior firepower. American leaders said they were doing the will of the American people by sending American troops to spread peace through use of force. Do you understand just how ridiculous that argument is?

Did I say "All terrorists are freedom fighters?" Did I condone the killing of civilians in any way, shape, or form? No and no. Stop being stupid.

Every one of the 9/11 hijackers who actually flew a plane into a building or into the ground died. We were left with nothing but a trail of crumbs and a scapegoat. We ignored the sovereignty of Afghanistan and invaded under the guise of removing an oppressive regime. We ignored the sovereignty of Iraq and invaded under the guise of removing an oppressive regime. Both countries are now more violent than they were before.

I will not leave the country I was born and raised in. I will fight to make it a better place; a country of stronger principles.

[zeitgeist]

I agree with you somewhat^
I do hate how it has become an evil to become a dissenter against wartime policies.
Everytime you kill one of these jihadist or civilians youve just created 2 or three more. His father, brother, cousin, friend is now pissed and want to kill some americans. Lets face it, if someone did this to someone you loved, youd feel exactly the same.

[ronmcdon]

You're not just fighting a large number of ppl who dislike you.
You're also fighting the whole region.
You have the Pakistanis on the East, & Iran to the West.

If the US could intervene in any way right now,
I'd hypothesize that it would be best to help Iran dissidents overthrow their damned 'Supreme Leader'.

I do see Pakistan as being the biggest exisitng problem after Afghan.
They simply don't have an effective government since Musharaff (sp?) left.

[HalveBlue]

I could write a whole thesis on this topic (and I just might have to in the future).

Some points to note:

-WWI
-WWII
-The Cold War
-Hegemonic Stability Theory
-Israel
-Afghan tribal politics
-US-Middle Eastern foreign policy and interactions
-Middle Eastern sociology
-Oil
-Nuclear Proliferation

All of those topics are tremendously relevant and intertwined in our current engagements in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the region as a whole.

This issue is tremendously broad and covers time lines far exceeding the last 10, 20, or even 30 years.

I, for one, do not for believe that if the US pulls out of Afghanistan or Iraq now, that we'd be safer or better off.

FWIW, I think Iraq - if the situation continues on its present course - is destined to become another Lebanon.

I welcome anyone that seeks further information about these issues to visit the following websites:

- Small Wars Journal (http://smallwarsjournal.com/)
- Home | Foreign Affairs (http://www.foreignaffairs.com/)
- Program for Culture and Conflict Studies at NPS - Home (http://www.nps.edu/programs/ccs/)
- The Long War Journal (http://www.longwarjournal.org/)

This is just the tip of the iceberg; proceed with caution.

Enjoy your trip down the rabbit hole!

[Omarius Maximus]

Leaving Afghanistan is not an option.

Turn your backs like the Soviets did, and you're gonna get Osama jr. setting up base.

Plus I have family there, so I appreciate you military guys' efforts.

[DJDANGER24]

all i know is, i dont wanna go back. but if i get recalled to go back, ill fight proudly for this country. agree with the war or not, if we dont try and fix things in this world, who will ? America may not be perfect IMO, but at least were trying...

[zeitgeist]

Leaving Afghanistan is not an option.

Turn your backs like the Soviets did, and you're gonna get Osama jr. setting up base.

Plus I have family there, so I appreciate you military guys' efforts.

There are hundreds of osamas out there right now. When he is dead someone just as bad or worse will replace him. Osama doesnt mean shit anymore. Hes more of icon than anything now

[fliprayzin240sx]

Really, you think we killed thousands of innocent civilians in our "occupation" of Iraq and Afghanistan? How many civilians do you think dies in Iraq every year since the first Gulf War? We established 2 No-Fly-Zones in an effort to keep Saddam from fucking chemical bombing the Kurds and the Shiates.

With all the damn ROEs we have in the desert, civilian casualties are actually low. We'd rather lose troops than piss off the locals.