Nistune information guide - How tos, a guide for you

[handinpants]

Nistune informative thread First off I, and a few others are working on this together to help you get started with nistune. For those of you who don't know anything about nistune,

NIStune is a real-time tuning suite designed especially for Nissans which provides the ability to:


Retune factory Nissanhttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/2.gif (http://zilvia.net/f/#) Engine Control Units (ECU)
Monitor gauges and map tracing on your ECU
Data log from your ECU using consult, wideband and auxiliary inputs
Perform playback using graphs, gauges and map tracing

It provides:


Connectivity for up to two emulators simultaneously (Pocket Romulator and Moates Ostrich)
Loads and Saves files in regular and odd/even formats for chip burning (EPROM/FLASH)
Support for up to two simultaneous wideband units (various commercial units supported)
Communication to our specially developed NIStune Real-time boards to perform real-time tuning

Features:


Real time tuning, map tracing, logging and playback
Consult display capabilities with real time diagnostic information (http://zilvia.net/f/#) in a separate window
Full Log Recording and playback is available for all consult variants.
Dual channel Wide Band support
Wideband can also be recorded inline with consult data and played back.
Edit five ROM images simulatenously, with comparison capabilities
Map and table copy feature
Intelligent display tables decoded for easy modification
Completely editable multi window grid, map/table views
Knock cells highlightable, pinpoint map trace configurable for follow and trail functionality, cell marking available
Resize injectors and change AFM capabilities
Real time RAM monitoring system
AFR and auxillary input trace against RPM and load
Hardware and software installation guides and manuals provided

over the next month or so, I will be documenting the process of installation, and tuning with nistune on my J4 ecu sr20DET, you will learn that you too can make reliable power with out breaking the bank....

Rules for posting in this thread:
please if you are going to post here, please keep it on the topic, this is a thread created to educate you about nistune, the installation process, tuning process, and the experience i am going through getting it all done.

If you have a problem with your nistune feel free to post a question.

If you have something to post about some other tuning program, standalone, this thread is about nistune only please start your own thread.


Stay tuned......
http://www.relevantyellow.com/Images/Logos/logo_47059.png (http://www.dcperformance.com/)
dcperformance.com --socal's authorized nistune Shop
http://vip-performance.com/resources/nistune_logo_med.jpg (http://www.nistune.com/)

[handinpants]

hexdmy (http://zilvia.net/f/members/hexdmy.html)

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4
Trader Rating: (0 (http://zilvia.net/f/traderratings.html?u=84762))


Ok, so back to the INFORMATIVE part of this thread, t

So here goes my first Nistune installation:

Stock ecu

http://zilvia.net/f/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 800x537.http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/vprtech/NISTUNE%20TYPE%204%20INSTALL/DSC_0002.jpg

Removing the conformal coating in preparation for de-soldering (note: the conformal coating will get on you fingers) with lacquer thinner.

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After cleaning with lacquer thinner to remove conformal coating, I used alcohol to remove residue.

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I applied a strip of flux to make it easier to de-solder the holes on the ecu board. The guys at Nistune encourage people to be very careful here during the de-solder process as the traces on the ecu are very fragile.

http://zilvia.net/f/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 800x537.http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/vprtech/NISTUNE%20TYPE%204%20INSTALL/DSC_0005.jpg

Using the HAKKO de-soldering tool, I think it would be difficult to use a manual solder sucker that you might find at Radio Shack, or at least I have not had good luck with those devices in the past.

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Here I'm inserting the ribbon cable into the board, this requires a little patience as the cable required a bit of wiggling to get all of the little wire to go through the board at the same time.

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Nistune recommends tack soldering the cable on this side first to hold it in place before flipping the ecu over and soldering all of the connections.

http://zilvia.net/f/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 800x537.http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/vprtech/NISTUNE%20TYPE%204%20INSTALL/DSC_0012.jpg

Soldering all of the connections, for those that don't do a lot of soldering, it is very important to keep your soldering tip clean with a wet sponge during the soldering process.

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I know this picture does not really show it, but I'm looking for nice even solder joints that have a nice shinny appearance. If the solder joint looks dull or matte , you may want to flux and re-flow that solder connection.

http://zilvia.net/f/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 800x537.http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/vprtech/NISTUNE%20TYPE%204%20INSTALL/DSC_0014.jpg

The last soldering step is to remove the resistor at position R021 to position R020, this tells the ecu to access the Nistune board instead of the normal ROM.

http://zilvia.net/f/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 800x537.http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/vprtech/NISTUNE%20TYPE%204%20INSTALL/DSC_0016.jpg

Fitting the type 4 Nistune board, there was conformal coating in two of the screw holes, so I used a dab of lacquer thinner to soften the coating, and the screws went right in.

http://zilvia.net/f/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 800x537.http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/vprtech/NISTUNE%20TYPE%204%20INSTALL/DSC_0017.jpg

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Done ! Hope to test it on Steve's car tomorrow.

http://zilvia.net/f/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 800x537.http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/vprtech/NISTUNE%20TYPE%204%20INSTALL/DSC_0019.jpg

click here to see video of it hooked up in handinpant's car http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An1NhPvQMRM


http://zilvia.net/f/images/zilvia/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://zilvia.net/f/images/zilvia/buttons/report.gif (http://zilvia.net/f/report.php?p=2937756) http://zilvia.net/f/images/zilvia/buttons/quote.gif (http://zilvia.net/f/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2937756)

[GSXRJJordan]

Sweet, can't wait to see more. I'm looking for a 92-94 VG30DE Maxima ECU for my RB25 to go Nistune on towards the end of the year, glad there's a shop here in Socal that's takin it up!

[handinpants]

numbers are in:
I went from a baseline of 219whp and 227 wheel torque
ended up with 268whp and 277wheel torque. Tuned on DC performance's Dynapak setup. videos and pics will be posted shortly.

[TheWolf]

so you made 49HP and 50ftlbs with just changing the ECU and not changing the boost?

[hexdmy]

so you made 49HP and 50ftlbs with just changing the ECU and not changing the boost?

We did increase the boost, I'm not sure how much of the power gains were from the boost increase, but I can tell you that the previous tune, that the car came in with, was not optimal for Steve's setup. Specifically, it was very rich, which was causing drivability issues, and the load scaling (TP or theoretical pulse width) was not setup correctly with the MAF/injector combination that was installed on the car. Basically we were running to the end of the timing and target afr lookup tables well before our target boost levels. So whether we were running 8 psi boost or 18, our timing values remained constant, which is not a good thing. Because the car was running so rich, it has some very noticeable drivability issues (ie misfiring) , that were not nearly as oblivious on the dyno, as on the road. Below are the power graphs and aft/boost graph.

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/vprtech/NISTUNE%20TYPE%204%20INSTALL/beforeandaftertuneAFRandBOOSTv2.jpg

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc103/vprtech/NISTUNE%20TYPE%204%20INSTALL/beforeandaftertunev2.jpg

[4x4le]

What boost controller are you using? The boost spike and then sudden dip shows that it isnt reacting fast enough. Usually dips at your peak tq area are alarming but it can be seen by the map logging that your boost controller is at fault for that. Never the less it can make tuning difficult because its hard to tell the difference between too much timing and pressure drop from the sudden wastegate opening.

Do you have a gain control on your boost controller?

Im not trying to be negative, the rest of the graph looks smooth. I just think the car will feel more controllable and more powerful if this small detail can be overcome.

The boost controller seems to settle down just fine too after max boost is reached so I dont think its a solenoid problem, I think its most likely a setting on the controller itself.

[silly_13]

nice write up steven!

[handinpants]

i have a blitz dual sbc spec s, with the gain set at 25, and the boost setting at 65. before gain was set at 20 or 25, and boost setting was at 50. but still whoever designed the blitz dual sbc made it very confusing, and not very user friendly. i am happy with the gains, but still not sure how the heck the boost controller is supposed to function..... any input?" and yeah the old tune was a rom tune, like the kind you send your ecu to and they tune it based on their tune, then expect it to produce the same results in someone elses car..... but thats another story, i am happy as hell at the results i am getting way better gas mileage per tank, though my rear tires aren't very happy...

[handinpants]

hey i wanted to post up this video

YouTube - Nissan 180sx (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_dN1EOHF-Y)

[steve shadows]

After playing with a Nis-Tune unit for a customer I have these main reservations still...


1. The unit will not allow Real Time tuning as is
2. The unit will not allow you to actually tune the map if you install the software more than 3 times. That means if you buy this product and you have a systems crash and you own more than three computers which many now do you are totally SOL.
3. The unit does not allow you to adjust while the car is running. You have to Image the map and then "burn" it to the eprom, this is not a standalone unit. This is the definition of a reprogrammable chip just as I thought.
4. The layout of and the ergonomics of the maps and adjustments are very generic or confusing and not very clear compared to FC Data logit for Power FC or Haltech Software. There is much more room for improvement.
Some of the descriptions and adjustments do not even use the standard Vocabulary that most EFI universities or engineering schools refer to in some cases.

That being said It is still a cool unit. However once it is all said and done the cost of the unit is almost as much as a Power FC, which you CAN tune in read time using fc logit or the provided software, you can map trace IN REAL TIME and you do not need to use an outside EMULATOR or additional ghost unit to tune the car in real time.

REAL TIME TUNING: Tuning while the engine in running and watching the power, EGT, knock and AFR in REAL TIME and adjusting a given cell in the MAP while the car is running, under power on the dyno, rolling to see IMMEDIATE results and to adjust accordingly over and over in steady state to fine tune every single cell

Most believe real time tuning is simply tuning the car while the engine is running...NOT SO

That is not true real time function adjustment...Haltech is the one who pioneered this and for Nissan the PFC is a more affordable way to do this with the FC Datalogit because you can adjust a cell and hit "write all" over and over while running and on the dyno for the same effect...

If I am missing something I apologize but it doesnt seem like this is possible for just the cost of the Regular old Nistune setup!

Unless you have dyno tuned cars you would not really understand why this is soo important to truly get the most out of the unit.

If someone could address the emulator and software license issue I still believe this package is overpriced by about 100-150 dollars just purely on the fact you have to image the rom and are not actually re-programming the actual computer.

Before anyone goes into a fit, these are VERY VALID concerns when one is evaluating price and the true capabilty of the unit they are buying. The consult and logging abilities of Nistune are great but when you are buying a REPROGRAMMABLE Engine Management unit the number one focus should be how does this product meet my needs to get the most out of my engine during the actual process of TUNING. This was much less impressive than I was expecting it to be and I don't really see how it is a "better deal" when you can get a used power fc in many cases for a couple hundred dollars less than this

Please answer these questions

1. explain exactly how to tune the unit in Real Time without using an Emulator or external side ecu. As in real time I am rolling on the Dyno Dynamics watching tractive effort and I need to raise or lower timing value in real time to see tractive effort go up or down so I can tune in steady state...

2. explain how to handle the software issue because nistune still has not allowed the consumer software to be free and fully downloadable.

3. Also explain the refresh rate of the "Target AFR" function...target AFR mapping is notorious even on highly advanced quick refresh units like Haltech to be AWEFUL. This is not "tuning" and typically the ecu will over correct or undercorrect and this causes sporadic high temperature period in the engine leading eventually to valve sealing seating issues, hot spots in the combustion chamber and cracked exhaust manifolds (very common)...I would not suggest using this function on the Nis-Tune if you have one. You should edit raw values but you will need to do this IN REAL TIME to really get each cell right....

I am happy to answer and questions of members regarding my experience with the unit and my reservations.

Again I do not sell any hardware and do not have an personal relationships with any company that sells hardware or units. I am purely a weekend dyno tuner with a very specific specialty (Nissan and BMW EFI).

Thanks

[4x4le]

Steve, if you were using an emmulater and you didnt have real time capabilitys you were not using a real full nistune setup. Pm me you number and i will give you a call sunday and i will explain stuff to you. Your consirns with this setup still seem whack because you still are yet to deal with an ecu that has been modified properly with nistune.

[steve shadows]

A real full purpose EMS/Standalone writes directly to the unit...

If you require an external emulator to do real time tuning you have made my point. This is a rom modification unit not a Standalone EMS

Explain the total costs for a full NisTune setup with an emulator vs. without it?

I think this information should be released to the whole forum not just me direct.

Is there any way to tune Nis-Tune in Real time without using a special emulator

The above explanations don't mention emulators

[sidewaysstarion]

Steve, If you open your eyes you will see Chris soldering in the INTERNAL emulator. which referred to as the NISTUNE board. this has been released to the forum as a whole, do us all a favor go ask your doctor for a rectal cranial extraction then read through this thread before you post next time, I'm pretty sure handinpants and hexdmy are tired of cleaning up your idiotic posts.

Also just an FYI only recently has HALTECH started doing 02 reference traget AFR, But you would know that because your an expert Haltech tuner :wackit:

So do us all a favor and stick to your mail order powerfc base maps and leave the tuning to the REAL experts with REAL dynos.

[/:mrmeph:]

[steve shadows]

Steve, If you open your eyes you will see Chris soldering in the INTERNAL emulator. which referred to as the NISTUNE board. this has been released to the forum as a whole, do us all a favor and pull your head out of your ass and read through this thread before you post next time, I'm pretty sure handinpants and hexdmy are tired of cleaning up your idiotic posts.

I understand this also but on Nis Tune's own site it suggests you use an external emulator board...

Also just an FYI only recently has HALTECH started doing 02 reference traget AFR, But you would know that because your an expert Haltech tuner :wackit:

Yes I know this and I suggest everyone DOES NOT USE THIS. The reason why haltech added this feature is purely for marketing against the AEM unit. The platinum and brand new Haltech units have a much more advanced and higher sample rate version of this option which is OK but I still recommend against it. You must do real steady state dyno tuning to watch tractive effort and get the best possible cylinder pressure

So do us all a favor and stick to your mail order powerfc base maps and leave the tuning to the REAL experts with REAL dynos.

The base map service is to help others who do not have good or local dyno shops available, most of my business is Dyno tuning? Have you seen my site? Not exactly sure what you are talking about on this comment...

[/:mrmeph:]

Again, the license issue is what holds back many of my customers who have mulitple computers that they would like to use with their unit from going with Nis-tune. I believe this software should be given to any paying customer for free with much more than limiting to only 3 computers.

On the issue of the emulator ON-BOARD, I would like someone to show the real time tuning in steady state in a video if possible...

If I can unlock the software for my customers car I will happily post a video of me doing it on my dyno once I can get access to that portion of the unit.

[sidewaysstarion]

Again, the license issue is what holds back many of my customers who have mulitple computers that they would like to use with their unit from going with Nis-tune. I believe this software should be given to any paying customer for free with much more than limiting to only 3 computers.

On the issue of the emulator ON-BOARD, I would like someone to show the real time tuning in steady state in a video if possible...

If I can unlock the software for my customers car I will happily post a video of me doing it on my dyno once I can get access to that portion of the unit.


Well maybe there is a reason why they sell a dealers license? so maybe people can tune Multiple ecus?

Also they do give a FREE version to the PAYING customers, as crazy as it sounds its true. Hexdmy paid for a dealers license and they gave him a FREE unlimited version of the software.

The reason why they sell the software is because you can use it with hardware other than their own. so if you wanted you could use a third party external emulator to build a map and then burn it to a chip and sell it. but you could also buy the nistune board which has an on board eeprom and an on board emulator which supports live tuning and live map tracing, all done through the stock consult connector.

why would someone bring their car to you to tune their nistune if you haven't even read the documentation? Please do you homework before someone winds up having to rebuild a motor.

ALL OF THE INFORMATION I HAVE POSTED WAS PROVIDED IN THE NISTUNE DOCUMENTATION THAT IS AVAILABLE ON THEIR WEBSITE FOR FREE!!!

Incase you can't use google, here is a link http://www.nistune.com/documentation.html personally Steve for you I would start with http://www.plmsdevelopments.com/files/nissan_ecu_tuning_basics.pdf

[4x4le]

Again, the license issue is what holds back many of my customers who have mulitple computers that they would like to use with their unit from going with Nis-tune. I believe this software should be given to any paying customer for free with much more than limiting to only 3 computers.

On the issue of the emulator ON-BOARD, I would like someone to show the real time tuning in steady state in a video if possible...

If I can unlock the software for my customers car I will happily post a video of me doing it on my dyno once I can get access to that portion of the unit.


I talked on the phone with this guy, I have no real clue what is going on but there is something screwy going on. His software license was not bought new, but was tried to have been transfered and they are not supposed to be transfered so that may have been picked up on, however I dont think they have safeguards against that.... Somewhat stumpped. I can assure you I have never had a customer that bought the software and board and had It installed by us have never had an issue like this.

And there is no need for a emmulator with nistune, if there is a nistune board, not a cheap chipped daughter board but an actual type 1-3 board there is no need for a emmulator, just a usb or consult cable. The tuning can be done in real time too, live, the changes are made instantly, the car dont have to be shut off, the burn button does not need to be pressed, the results are instant. You can see the vid that hand in pants posted (the one that said not to be confused with any other steve lol) the fuel map with map trace happening. That is showing the puslewidth of the injectors and what part the ecu is pulling from, and you can click on any of them and make a change instantly at any time.

Now if your in streaming mode which makes the program act allot faster the tuning is a little less real time if you will but that is a different discussion.

Either way, I still think you shouldn't (and no one should) so much as think about touching a nistune setup until they have read all the documentation that is available.
Steve, that could have saved one of your customers 3 hours of dyno time couldnt it have?

[4x4le]

I vote lets keep the thread clean, it may take a while but he will be educated If I can help it.

Now I did have someone call me that was having all sorts of wierd problems but he purchased the ecu and software (which isnt supposed to be transfered) from someone other than a nistune shop. Its hard to figure out what all is going on with that situation but that is the one and only time Steve Shadows had a chance to mess with Nistune. No wonder he hates it.

[GSXRJJordan]

Live tuning is not the same as REAL TIME. Emulation + being able to write the ROM is not the same as the ECU making changes while loaded on the dyno. That's Steve's beef, among other things it seems.

I agree that Nistune has to present a significant price/performance advantage to make it preferable to the other "big names" in the industry.

I'm watching to see how this sorts itself out.

[DALAZ_68]

i see it as this, a PFC unit for a CA18 cost pretty much double for me then u SR Rb gents...and thats with out controller usually, im not going for huge numbers...300 and im good, Nistune will get me where i need to be and itll be safer then a chip...

when i get my car done ill see war happens wen it happens

[4x4le]

Newest info from Matt@nistune.

The error message the user had (that steve shadows was going to tune the car for and had trouble with) has opened too many address files looking around at stuff, or its possible that the person he bought the license from has done this. Since this is a single user license and the software detected that it was being used commercially (or so it seemed) it had shut itself down.

Matt gave me instructions for me to pass on to the current license holder in order to make the program work correctly once again.

[steve shadows]

Live tuning is not the same as REAL TIME. Emulation + being able to write the ROM is not the same as the ECU making changes while loaded on the dyno. That's Steve's beef, among other things it seems.

I agree that Nistune has to present a significant price/performance advantage to make it preferable to the other "big names" in the industry.

I'm watching to see how this sorts itself out.

Yes it is, but I will report back once I use this unit again and tell you guys if it actually does allow real time tuning in the sense of the way that Haltech does.

The main beef I have, however, is that there is not a fully downloadable and openly accessible software for the DIY'er or customer...

The fact that they sell licenses just does not line up with all other main stream class A standalone systems. I don't really see how keeping it this way makes it any easier on the community or the customers either...

Newest info from Matt@nistune.

The error message the user had (that steve shadows was going to tune the car for and had trouble with) has opened too many address files looking around at stuff, or its possible that the person he bought the license from has done this. Since this is a single user license and the software detected that it was being used commercially (or so it seemed) it had shut itself down.

Matt gave me instructions for me to pass on to the current license holder in order to make the program work correctly once again.

Excellent, thank you.

I will report back into this thread with a full review of the unit once I get to really try Real Time steady state tuning with it.

[4x4le]

This is an email sent to me to post from Matt Brown at NIStune.
Its lengthy, but if you dont care to read it you have no business even participating in this thread.

============================================
Hi Brandon

If you want to post for me...

Hey guys, Matt here from Nistune. I've just been alerted of this thread so
thought I'd add my bit....

1. The unit will not allow Real Time tuning as isyes it will. it allows changes to the ECU whilst the engine is running from
it. With both emualtors and our boards. If Nistune tells you that you have
exceeded your license conditions then it will only allow offline tuning (see
next)

2. The unit will not allow you to actually tune the map if you
install the software more than 3 times. That means if you buy this product
and you have a systems crash and you own more than three computers which
many now do you are totally SOL.where did you get this information from? I should clarify from our official
source of information (Nistune FAQ)
"5. Individual License and Tuners License Difference
We have been working with and received quite a number of queries and
requests from workshops with what NIStune will cost for the workshop.
NIStune has now been split into two users licenses.
(a) Individual users license
- Intended for those who wish to purchase one or few boards, only needing
address files for those boards for personal interest
- Limited to three address files, and five differerent ECU IDs that can be
tuned in real-time
(b) Tuners license
- Intended for those in the business of tuning. ie primarily workshops.
Those who wish to either run NIStune with emluators and daughterboards, or
wish to tune using our RealTime boards
- Provided with complete set of Nissan address files with maptracing
information
- Unlimited emulator and boards supported
- Discount prices on boards, and further discount on quantity boards
ordered. "
As per our license agreement which you clicked when installing - you may
install on mulitple computers which are owned by you. You also have the
ability for unlimited realtime tuning on upto 5 vehicles (determined by ECU
ID). You may reset this by uninstalling/reinstalling the software if need
be. What you have written is basically misleading/incorrect
3. The unit does not allow you to adjust while the car is running.
You have to Image the map and then "burn" it to the eprom, this is not a
standalone unit. This is the definition of a reprogrammable chip just as I
thought.Plain wrong. The boards have EEPROM backed SRAM. All changes made are stored
to SRAM when a cell is altered and take effect immediately. When you wish to
keep those changes the burn button stores from SRAM to EEPROM on the chip
whilst the car is running. It is not FLASH memory like Bikirom which is only
'uploadable' after 20 seconds of FLASH block erasure and reprogram.
Emulators are battery backed SRAM and have the same effect except they keep
their changes all the time but are not a permanent fixture to the ECU.
4. The layout of and the ergonomics of the maps and adjustments are
very generic or confusing and not very clear compared to FC Data logit for
Power FC or Haltech Software. There is much more room for improvement. Some
of the descriptions and adjustments do not even use the standard Vocabulary
that most EFI universities or engineering schools refer to in some
casesWe have a lot of positive tuner feedback expressing how easy the system is
to use. The design of the application was based from other various tuning
programs including TunerPro, Chrome, Hondata etc.
The vocabulary is based from what JECS/Nissan engineers called all the
parameters in the ECU (See Nissan patents for more details). Some of these
definitions (for example TTP could be broken down into plainer english).
Care to elaborate on non-standard and what it should be? We take all
comments on board for improvement of the software to make it easy to use.
However once it is all said and done the cost of the unit is almost
as much as a Power FC, which you CAN tune in read time using fc logit or the
provided software, you can map trace IN REAL TIME and you do not need to use
an outside EMULATOR or additional ghost unit to tune the car in real time.
Nistune single users license + Type 4 board + consult cable = $535AUD
~$430USD.
You can realtime tune, log and maptrace simulatenously with that setup and
guess what, no emulator is required. btw Where can you buy a brand new
PowerFC for that price??? Oh you cant. They dont sell them brand new any
more. What about second hand? I see an ER34 Power FC going on ebay for $2K
AUD... and the average price for a R33 Power FC starts around $1200AUD. Best
prices I have seen are about $800AUD
you can adjust a cell and hit "write all" over and over while
running and on the dyno for the same effect...Thats what we do also when you have realtime tuning available
If someone could address the emulator and software license issue I
still believe this package is overpriced by about 100-150 dollars just
purely on the fact you have to image the rom and are not actually
re-programming the actual computer.Our software license is an unlimited time license which is available in two
types, individual and tuners. If you look at FLASH based tuning systems for
Suburu, EVOs etc they charge more than what we charge for a tuners license
for each car reflashed!!
What you see with most 'free' aftermarket software is that they are
specifically designed for one purpose - and that is to run with the ECU that
it supports. In case you didnt realise, the cost of the support and upgrades
is factored into the price of the aftermarket ECU when you purchase it. We
would have sold our boards with the software 'free' and bundled but then we
would still keep the same price as current for the board. We offer
flexibility to split the boards from the software so tuners can install
boards for customers and also to tune with third party products including
emulators and calumsult boards.
License costs covers my time with support each night (20-30 enquiries),
developing new features, bug fixes etc, equipment costs, business running
costs, liability insurance and legal costs (which are massive especially for
selling to the US market) and all profits are taxed at 30% before I even see
any of it a. Compared to most software applications, especially for
automotive - its priced quite reasonably.
Let me put in on another perspective. How much do tuners charge for a tune
which is just changes made to maps? How much money do you put on a tune you
have sold? How often do you sell that tune to others once you have spent the
time and money developing it? Its all time vs cost and software projects
take a long time (its been about 6 years since starting writing the
application). How pissed off would you be if people started taking your
tunes and selling them on ebay or distributing otherwise. Its all
intellectual property and time invested which is worth something in real
dollars.
I am rolling on the Dyno Dynamics watching tractive effort and I
need to raise or lower timing value in real time to see tractive effort go
up or down so I can tune in steady state...You are making your timing changes on the timing maps and the igntiion
timing reported by consult changes whilst you are altering the map. its all
good you can do that with Nistune

Also explain the refresh rate of the "Target AFR" function...target AFR
mapping is notorious even on highly advanced quick refresh units like
Haltech to be AWEFUL
target AFR is updated within receipt of wideband data from the selected
wideband unit. you put in your required AFRs and then the fuel map will
increase/decrease. I estimate processing time about 30ms at worst. Its a
feature some users wanted and we are implementing and testing

His software license was not bought new, but was tried to have been
transfered and they are not supposed to be transfered so that may have been
picked up on, however I dont think they have safeguards against that....
Somewhat stumpped
hmmmm... sounds like the license was for a board and you are trying to use
it on an emulator. Licenses can only be resold with my permission (see
license agreement doc) and we enable the license conditions depending on
what gets ordered. Sorry but you did not purchase an emulator license. See
the Help-About for the type of license you have

Live tuning is not the same as REAL TIME. Emulation + being able to write
the ROM is not the same as the ECU making changes while loaded on the dyno.
That's Steve's beef, among other things it seems.
The live tuning isnt avaialble with the license he is using which is why
this is the problem to begin with. The reason for the restriction is so
people dont abuse the individual licenses

How could it have saved him any time if the license would not allow us
access?
where did you get your license? what did you specify when you ordered your
license? most licences out there are not for realtime tuning with
emulators....

How will Nis-Tune as a company address re-selling, as is extremely common in
the Nissan community....you can just look to the massive for sale section on
Zilvia for example to know how common and popular this is in the Nissan
community.
We do it already. We transfer license keys and blacklist old ones.
The main beef I have, however, is that there is not a fully
downloadable and openly accessible software for the DIY'er or
customer...Does it need to be? We have a trial run available. for experimenting. Most
fully downloadable software for vehicles is no good without the ECU
connected anyway


Regards
Matt Brown
NIStune Developments
www.nistune.com (http://www.nistune.com/)

[GSXRJJordan]

Brandon, thanks for getting Matt's input back to us! Sounds like Steve had a bad license/unit, and that the Nistune really does offer us the best value. The "Target AFR" function with a quick wideband sounds like a great option for 'basemaps' for people that can't make it directly to a dyno ~ I agree that the feature is a plus, even if the most advanced tuners wouldn't use it.

To clarify - the Type 4 board will work on a ECR33 ECU? Would it be any easier/better if I used a VG30DE VVT (like the Maxima discussed earlier in this thread) ECU?

[4x4le]

Yea, sorry. No support for the r33 for some reason....... Kinda skipped that one and I dont know why. You can run a maxima ecu like you mentioned or a z32 ecu. We can cut you a deal on a type 2 board if you go with a z32 ecu. We are figuring out the price and we are going to offer a "hook up" on the type 2 boards in the preme section soon to come.

[handinpants]

i'd be more than willing to take someone for a ride in my car to see how it works...... hopefully someone out there can show me how to ride my motorcycle on the freeway

[gmember240]

Going tommorow to local race shop to chat about getting my s14 nistuned there. They just got their dealers license and i would be the first. I have a pretty basic setup and I'm kind of curious if there's anything I need to get before I can get it Nistuned. Here's my setup:

95 240sx KA24DET
SR T25 turbo
SR 370cc injectors
N60 Maf
ebay FMIC
Megan Racing 3" straightpipe exhaust
Megan Racing 3" downpipe
Megan Racing turbo elbow
stock turbo 7psi wastegate
Greddy type rs BOV
Blow Through Setup

I'm extremely new to tuning and basically what I'm asking is do I have all the required parts to get the car Nistuned? I don't want to get an ECU tune and I like what I've heard about Nistune. Thanks

[GSXRJJordan]

Yea, sorry. No support for the r33 for some reason....... Kinda skipped that one and I dont know why. You can run a maxima ecu like you mentioned or a z32 ecu. We can cut you a deal on a type 2 board if you go with a z32 ecu. We are figuring out the price and we are going to offer a "hook up" on the type 2 boards in the preme section soon to come.

Cool, I'll keep an eye out for that. I'd love to be one of the first with this setup in the states, and put it against other similar RB25 setups out there.

i'd be more than willing to take someone for a ride in my car to see how it works...... hopefully someone out there can show me how to ride my motorcycle on the freeway

Haha, replied to your PM - I'm down to show you how to ride it on one wheel or two on the freeway :)

[steve shadows]

This is an email sent to me to post from Matt Brown at NIStune.
Its lengthy, but if you dont care to read it you have no business even participating in this thread.

============================================
Hi Brandon

If you want to post for me...

Hey guys, Matt here from Nistune. I've just been alerted of this thread so
thought I'd add my bit....

yes it will. it allows changes to the ECU whilst the engine is running from
it. With both emualtors and our boards. If Nistune tells you that you have
exceeded your license conditions then it will only allow offline tuning (see
next)

where did you get this information from? I should clarify from our official
source of information (Nistune FAQ)
"5. Individual License and Tuners License Difference
We have been working with and received quite a number of queries and
requests from workshops with what NIStune will cost for the workshop.
NIStune has now been split into two users licenses.
(a) Individual users license
- Intended for those who wish to purchase one or few boards, only needing
address files for those boards for personal interest
- Limited to three address files, and five differerent ECU IDs that can be
tuned in real-time
(b) Tuners license
- Intended for those in the business of tuning. ie primarily workshops.
Those who wish to either run NIStune with emluators and daughterboards, or
wish to tune using our RealTime boards
- Provided with complete set of Nissan address files with maptracing
information
- Unlimited emulator and boards supported
- Discount prices on boards, and further discount on quantity boards
ordered. "
As per our license agreement which you clicked when installing - you may
install on mulitple computers which are owned by you. You also have the
ability for unlimited realtime tuning on upto 5 vehicles (determined by ECU
ID). You may reset this by uninstalling/reinstalling the software if need
be. What you have written is basically misleading/incorrect
Plain wrong. The boards have EEPROM backed SRAM. All changes made are stored
to SRAM when a cell is altered and take effect immediately. When you wish to
keep those changes the burn button stores from SRAM to EEPROM on the chip
whilst the car is running. It is not FLASH memory like Bikirom which is only
'uploadable' after 20 seconds of FLASH block erasure and reprogram.
Emulators are battery backed SRAM and have the same effect except they keep
their changes all the time but are not a permanent fixture to the ECU.

We have a lot of positive tuner feedback expressing how easy the system is
to use. The design of the application was based from other various tuning
programs including TunerPro, Chrome, Hondata etc.
The vocabulary is based from what JECS/Nissan engineers called all the
parameters in the ECU (See Nissan patents for more details). Some of these
definitions (for example TTP could be broken down into plainer english).
Care to elaborate on non-standard and what it should be? We take all
comments on board for improvement of the software to make it easy to use.
Nistune single users license + Type 4 board + consult cable = $535AUD
~$430USD.
You can realtime tune, log and maptrace simulatenously with that setup and
guess what, no emulator is required. btw Where can you buy a brand new
PowerFC for that price??? Oh you cant. They dont sell them brand new any
more. What about second hand? I see an ER34 Power FC going on ebay for $2K
AUD... and the average price for a R33 Power FC starts around $1200AUD. Best
prices I have seen are about $800AUD

Again we are talking about what the common market price is in the United States in US dollars for comparable or single solution units...not AUD but I understand what you are trying to suggest...

Thats what we do also when you have realtime tuning available
Our software license is an unlimited time license which is available in two
types, individual and tuners. If you look at FLASH based tuning systems for
Suburu, EVOs etc they charge more than what we charge for a tuners license
for each car reflashed!!

We are not talking about systems for EVOS and Subarus, we are directly addressing these issues from the perspective of Nissan tuners and nissan customers....Re-Flashing an ecu everytime they get adjusted in this case you are not talking about Full Reprogrammable EMS...you are talking about a different type of system. If you are going to market your unit against the Full Reprogrammable EMS and Standalone units then you shoudl address the issues with them as the competition not deflect to another manufacturers common market ROM flash issue.

What you see with most 'free' aftermarket software is that they are
specifically designed for one purpose - and that is to run with the ECU that
it supports. In case you didnt realise, the cost of the support and upgrades
is factored into the price of the aftermarket ECU when you purchase it.

Exactly...so why do you not invest your costs into your hardware? This way your software is available to all tuners, customers and shops who would like to sell your system and EVEN possibly distribute it? Instead you are creating a divide between preferred shops or customers who will invest in buying liscenes. This will also limit the amount of the market that your prodcut can be RE-SOLD into as well...

We
would have sold our boards with the software 'free' and bundled but then we
would still keep the same price as current for the board. We offer
flexibility to split the boards from the software so tuners can install
boards for customers and also to tune with third party products including
emulators and calumsult boards.
License costs covers my time with support each night (20-30 enquiries),
developing new features, bug fixes etc, equipment costs, business running
costs, liability insurance and legal costs (which are massive especially for
selling to the US market) and all profits are taxed at 30% before I even see
any of it a. Compared to most software applications, especially for
automotive - its priced quite reasonably.
Let me put in on another perspective. How much do tuners charge for a tune
which is just changes made to maps? How much money do you put on a tune you
have sold? How often do you sell that tune to others once you have spent the
time and money developing it? Its all time vs cost and software projects
take a long time (its been about 6 years since starting writing the
application). How pissed off would you be if people started taking your
tunes and selling them on ebay or distributing otherwise. Its all
intellectual property and time invested which is worth something in real
dollars.
You are making your timing changes on the timing maps and the igntiion
timing reported by consult changes whilst you are altering the map. its all
good you can do that with Nistune
target AFR is updated within receipt of wideband data from the selected
wideband unit. you put in your required AFRs and then the fuel map will
increase/decrease. I estimate processing time about 30ms at worst. Its a
feature some users wanted and we are implementing and testing
hmmmm... sounds like the license was for a board and you are trying to use
it on an emulator. Licenses can only be resold with my permission (see
license agreement doc) and we enable the license conditions depending on
what gets ordered. Sorry but you did not purchase an emulator license. See
the Help-About for the type of license you have
The live tuning isnt avaialble with the license he is using which is why
this is the problem to begin with. The reason for the restriction is so
people dont abuse the individual licenses
where did you get your license? what did you specify when you ordered your
license? most licences out there are not for realtime tuning with
emulators....

This was a customers license and he brought his lap top with the car for me to tune...however due to the limitation of licenses we cannot actually use his software - this must be because of the fact he purchased his unit from a private seller who already "used up" all of the available licenses...

We do it already. We transfer license keys and blacklist old ones.
Does it need to be? We have a trial run available. for experimenting. Most
fully downloadable software for vehicles is no good without the ECU
connected anyway

Yes, the software should be fully downloadable and the lisences should be offered at the time of re-selling...otherwise you are going to limit the the level the product can be consumed over time and the number of re-sales the product can effectively live on through...Unless of course you automatically offer a free-license to the next purchaser of the unit...


Regards
Matt Brown
NIStune Developments
www.nistune.com (http://www.nistune.com/)


I appreciate you addressing directly the questions I have regarding your unit

These issues with customers and re-sold ECMs which have the boards will continue to be issues as long as you plan on bundling the licenses as a main source of income / money making part of the system.

I think the best way for Nis-Tune to be competitve with full standalone ecus in teh United States market is to allow Customers unlimited uploads of software that allows access to emulator and tuning maps, but to limit the full Work Shop software to teh work shops.

If there are additional features and options that can be offered to workshops so be it but the individual customer should be able to have an easy to use software that does not require a special license just to use it to tune the Nis-Tune Hardware that he already paid for.

If you taking time out of your schedule to provide free support is costing you valuable time or money then you shoud supply a limited number of free support hours to customers and then charge for time afteer that.

There is no unspoken law that says an ECM or Standalone manufacturer has to provide free and unlimited service or that you have to make up this cost by imbedding it in charging extra to customers to access certain capabilties of the software by limiting licenses

[DALAZ_68]

If you taking time out of your schedule to provide free support is costing you valuable time or money then you shoud supply a limited number of free support hours to customers and then charge for time afteer that.

There is no unspoken law that says an ECM or Standalone manufacturer has to provide free and unlimited service or that you have to make up this cost by imbedding it in charging extra to customers to access certain capabilties of the software by limiting licenses


true, but then he would be limiting his time to those who supported his product...he's offering more support to us, his costumers. mind you he's not a huge corporation like other companies, the fact that his work has spread as far as it has is without a doubt impressive...the fact that gives more time to his costumers than other tuners and parts suppliers,and he himself the developer answers the questions being asked is straight up honorable...

see if he were to limit his time, then someone elses argument would be why is he limiting his time...

[steve shadows]

true, but then he would be limiting his time to those who supported his product...he's offering more support to us, his costumers. mind you he's not a huge corporation like other companies, the fact that his work has spread as far as it has is without a doubt impressive...the fact that gives more time to his costumers than other tuners and parts suppliers,and he himself the developer answers the questions being asked is straight up honorable...

see if he were to limit his time, then someone elses argument would be why is he limiting his time...


But only a small percentage of those who buy the unit are going to need extensive support directly from him...

Don't get me wrong again, I think that Nis-Tune is a good unit, but I don't understand by the supporters on this board ARE SOOOO touchy about the smallest critisims, it's really suspicious.

The unit has great potential and is a good deal in the broader scope but limiting licenses, in my opinion is going to limit the amount of support and sales the unit ends up gettnig in the end.

Everyone basically is taking a hit for a few people sucking up his time.

It's not really a way to directly build in costs.

The other manufacturers would argue that their cost is R and D costs and the design and testing of the unit and that Support is free and soley dependent on how much time they have to get back .

Believe it or not even Haltech and Motec are not HUGE companies, they only have a few people stateside who are available for tech support at all...

I think it's just a trick way to force tuning shops and customers to shell out extra money for a "license."

This is not Hondata, nor is it Windows 2000. It's a product modeling itslef on DIY market.

I think it would be a lot more fair to the consumers if the basic tuning software was avaialble and did not need a license.

In the end the money will still be made on the "WorkShops" licenses especailly if there is more access granted with these Licenses.

Just a thought.

[SidewaysGts]

Don't get me wrong again, I think that Nis-Tune is a good unit, but I don't understand by the supporters on this board ARE SOOOO touchy about the smallest critisims, it's really suspicious.

Its not that were "touchy". The problem with your "smallest criticisms" from what I've seen so far is they were based entirely on your ignorance becuase you didn't take the simple time to properly research the unit (Ie: read the manual), and stemmed entirely from your own mis-understandings. All of which as far as I could see were addressed nicely by Matt Brown. Your "criticisms" have been nothing but false information. It usually helps ones case to know what they are talking about, before they criticize it. And the "supporters" would probably be a LOT more receptive to your criticisms if this wasnt the case.

After all of that the only real criticism you have left that I can see is that they charge money for their software, and you feel it should be free. I guess I just cant see the issue with this. Unless I mis-read Matt there, even if you buy it all brand new from them, its only 430 bucks. Can you list me some comparative systems for that kind of money? New?

Would you be happy if they included the software for free, and just charged 430 bucks for everything instead? It all seems pretty fair to me.

Dont get me wrong, I can see your concerns. Its just that when everything costs so little to begin with, i really cant agree. Even if you decide to re-sell the unit, the software lisence can go with it. The only people I can see this actually effecting, are people who wanted to dl the software and play around with it without the ecu in an offline mode.

[steve shadows]

Its not that were "touchy". The problem with your "smallest criticisms" from what I've seen so far is they were based entirely on your ignorance becuase you didn't take the simple time to properly research the unit (Ie: read the manual), and stemmed entirely from your own mis-understandings. All of which as far as I could see were addressed nicely by Matt Brown. Your "criticisms" have been nothing but false information. It usually helps ones case to know what they are talking about, before they criticize it. And the "supporters" would probably be a LOT more receptive to your criticisms if this wasnt the case.

How was I not correct? The issue was that licensing would not allow me access to the emulator function. After inspecting Nis-tunes own FAQ it mentioned the use of an external Emulator and I requested this be cleared up. unless asking a question is false information, which it is not...

I find it funny people joining on this forum with only a couple posts just to come in this thread and add thier two cents.


After all of that the only real criticism you have left that I can see is that they charge money for their software, and you feel it should be free. I guess I just cant see the issue with this. Unless I mis-read Matt there, even if you buy it all brand new from them, its only 430 bucks. Can you list me some comparative systems for that kind of money? New?

Would you be happy if they included the software for free, and just charged 430 bucks for everything instead? It all seems pretty fair to me.

Dont get me wrong, I can see your concerns. Its just that when everything costs so little to begin with, i really cant agree. Even if you decide to re-sell the unit, the software lisence can go with it. The only people I can see this actually effecting, are people who wanted to dl the software and play around with it without the ecu in an offline mode.


You would also have to agree with me that the "preferred shop list" or limiting the "workshop" software to only shops - will also LIMIT the number of tuners who will be able to fully exlpore the potential of the Nistune units for it's clients.

It is a solution for the same goal and is a way to adjust fuel and ignition on a car but it does require a few things are additonal costs to the user:

I.e. Installation, cost of licenses and limitation on shops that can actually tune the unit withe full "workshop" package.

[sidewaysstarion]

Here Steve, let me break it down for you in simple first grade mathematics

Nistune Single user license $200 AUD
Nistune Dealers license (also includes discount on hardware) $600 AUD
Nistune Board for SR ~ $250 AUD

Apexi Power Fc Commander (what is needed to tune a power FC) ~$300 USD
Apexi Power Fc Unit ~$1000+ USD
Apexi Power Fc Software w/ License ~$400 USD

Haltech... That is $1500-$2000+ (that doesn't include a custom harness for the car)

So lets do some math, so lets price out a nistune board and dealers license

$250 AUD + $600 AUD = $850 AUD
current exchange rate is 1.00 AUD = 0.827908 USD

so all of that would cost you $703.71

so now lets price out a nistune board + a license

$250 AUD + $200 AUD = $450 AUD = $372.46

so for less then half the price of just the Power FC unit you could fully tune your stock computer.

Also how dare FC datalogit sell their software, we should yell at them about not giving it away for free. :duh:

Oh yeah steve, you could get a nistune board + a dealers license for less then the cost of a Power Fc that you love so much and still have money left over to rent dyno time from your friend to play with it.

A good friend once told me, You have to pay to play, because there are no free lunches.

Also Steve as SidewaysGTS said in his post please give us an example of something that will do the same thing or more for less money?

http://attheridge.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/square-peg-round-hole.jpg

:Owned:

[handinpants]

I'm only stating from experience, and my wallet does not get bigger from any of my claims. I just know that I have a suckass $10 and hour job stacking tomatos, and i can't afford to shell out $900 for a power fc or haltech, then spend another $600 on a tune, its just too friggin expensive. which is why i sold my power fc without even trying to install it. bought the nistune board and paid for tuning, and saved my self some money i was able to still pay some bills...

so from a financial standpoint best bang for buck, definitely nistune. i guess i am kinda biased you know but I feel for every other low baller 240 owner, cause i'm in that boat.

if anyone wants to doubt my claims i'll take you on a ride in my car with it....

[hexdmy]

You would also have to agree with me that the "preferred shop list" or limiting the "workshop" software to only shops - will also LIMIT the number of tuners who will be able to fully exlpore the potential of the Nistune units for it's clients.

It is a solution for the same goal and is a way to adjust fuel and ignition on a car but it does require a few things are additonal costs to the user:

I.e. Installation, cost of licenses and limitation on shops that can actually tune the unit withe full "workshop" package.

Why should there not be a "preferred shop list" ? I paid for the dealer license, and I don't even have a Nissan customer base. I'm also not on the official "preferred shop list" as I don't think I have earned that title yet. The intent of the dealer list is so that people can find a shop familiar with Nistune, what's wrong with that ?

If Nistune only worked with Nistune hardware, I imagine they would have no problem giving out the software for free. Being that it can be used with many different hardware interfaces, it does not make any sense at all, as they would just be handing out all the hard work they put into Nistune with no return. Steve Shadow's, would you give away something that it took you five years to develope, and that you continually support and spend money on ?

Really Steve, although you have toned down your attitude somewhat, it is clear to me that you are still trying to slam this product, either because you have not taken the time to fully familiarise yourself with it (i.e. read and fully comprehend the documentation) , or you are just pretending to be ignorant. Either way, it's making you look bad, not Nistune, so I suggest again, that you stop this foolish behavior while you can.

[4x4le]

Im just going to get to the point. Im not trying to be a dick.

Nistunes business plan has worked so far, it has also made it world wide when that wasnt the plan at first. Why change a business plan that works? Especially when you are officially the 1st and only person I have heard of with such complaints?

They are not going to take business advice from anyone. I dont blame them either.

You never hear people using nistune be unhappy with it unless the real problem is on their end.

If you want to tune a nissan ecu for free download tuner pro, get a consult cable, a chip burner, a standard daughter board, and 2 emmulators and have at it, for free! You make the same tune as you can with a nistune board and software, its just not as easy and the software typicially sucks. Nistune does not add features to your ecu, it just allows you to change the existing parameters, just like tuner pro rt.
NOW if you want to be able to tune a nissan ecu easier, with better software and less hardware cough up the money for the software or shut up. Youve gotta pay to play. Nistune is a luxury. You can walk to dinner for free, or you can take a limo, but dont expect the limo to be free.

[jeb1517]

Wow I had such high hopes for this thread. Can we please get back on track? I have some basic quetions about Nistune and I was going to wait to see if they got answered, but that's obviously never going to happen so I'll just ask them.

1) Is the type of board you need specific to the engine only or does it have anything to do with the car? I have an s13 with a s14 KADE-T so would I just get the s14 KADE board (type 3)?

2) Let's say I know I'm never going to tune my car. Can I just buy only a board, install it, then just take it to a Nistune dealer to get it tuned using their license? Basically I just save money on software and cable and put it towards tuning time.

3) Let's say I do buy the board and the software. If I sell my car with the board still installed and get a different car, I just have to buy a new board and can keep using my old license? I can do this 3 times? is that what's meant by 1 individual license getting 3 address files?

4) Why does an individual license come with more ECU IDs than addresses? Is it so you can tune multiple ECUs with the same board?

Thanks.

[kandyflip445]

Im just going to get to the point. Im not trying to be a dick.

Nistunes business plan has worked so far, it has also made it world wide when that wasnt the plan at first. Why change a business plan that works? Especially when you are officially the 1st and only person I have heard of with such complaints?

They are not going to take business advice from anyone. I dont blame them either.

You never hear people using nistune be unhappy with it unless the real problem is on their end.

If you want to tune a nissan ecu for free download tuner pro, get a consult cable, a chip burner, a standard daughter board, and 2 emmulators and have at it, for free! You make the same tune as you can with a nistune board and software, its just not as easy and the software typicially sucks. Nistune does not add features to your ecu, it just allows you to change the existing parameters, just like tuner pro rt.
NOW if you want to be able to tune a nissan ecu easier, with better software and less hardware cough up the money for the software or shut up. Youve gotta pay to play. Nistune is a luxury. You can walk to dinner for free, or you can take a limo, but dont expect the limo to be free.

I think you guys are taking Steve's comments the wrong way. He's asking for clarification on a few issues he's seen/had. A few of them were answered by that guy from Nistune. Which is great. Notice he's not beating a dead horse about those questions.

Also notice, you "sideways" guys, that just calling names and saying things like "let me break it down for you in simple first grade mathematics" doesn't help people see the merit in this thread OR the product. I automatically think, "hey look, if I become a part of the Nistune users I can be a part of a group of dickheads!" If you have a REAL answer to a question then answer. If you don't fully understand where Steve is coming from then ask him to clarify his question.

I think, and correct me if I'm wrong Steve, that his issue is not that he's trying to get them to change their operating model. I think his issue is that he DOES have experience with Nistune. His experience was that someone bought a second hand Nistune and couldn't get Steve to tune it like he would have if the person would have bought a NEW Nistune.

Now I know you can just go buy a new license of Nistune software. But I think that's kinda doing a disservice to the customers. If I had bought a Power FC or AEM EMS or Haltech from someone second hand then I wouldn't have to call the company to buy the tuning software to use it. (I'm assuming here cause I've never bought these. lol)

That's my .02 cents.

Let's try to keep it on topic and leave the useless name-calling and finger-pointing out of here.

[Phlip]

Everyone,
Knock off the arguments and bullshitting.
Next time I have to come into this thread to clean up after people who apparently have no interest in constructive contributions to it, I am pinking people.

[hexdmy]

[quote=kandyflip445;2981205]I think you guys are taking Steve's comments the wrong way. He's asking for clarification on a few issues he's seen/had. A few of them were answered by that guy from Nistune. Which is great. Notice he's not beating a dead horse about those questions.

Also notice, you "sideways" guys, that just calling names and saying things like "let me break it down for you in simple first grade mathematics" doesn't help people see the merit in this thread OR the product. I automatically think, "hey look, if I become a part of the Nistune users I can be a part of a group of dickheads!" If you have a REAL answer to a question then answer. If you don't fully understand where Steve is coming from then ask him to clarify his question.

I don't know if you read the previous version of this thread that was deleted, but I can tell you that it has been Steve Shadows that has been the "dickhead" here on this thread. I know that 4x4le and myself have tried very hard to answer questions (I should say false statements presented as questions) made by Steve Shadows time and time again. We've tried time and time again to clarify things for Steve. I believe Steve knows he has a following on this forum, obliviously he tuned a fair share of Nissans. With that in mind I can only guess that he believes if he repeats himself enough, people will actually start to believe what he's saying. It's crazy really, and I'm sick of it.

I think, and correct me if I'm wrong Steve, that his issue is not that he's trying to get them to change their operating model. I think his issue is that he DOES have experience with Nistune. His experience was that someone bought a second hand Nistune and couldn't get Steve to tune it like he would have if the person would have bought a NEW Nistune.

Now I know you can just go buy a new license of Nistune software. But I think that's kinda doing a disservice to the customers. If I had bought a Power FC or AEM EMS or Haltech from someone second hand then I wouldn't have to call the company to buy the tuning software to use it. (I'm assuming here cause I've never bought these. lol)
I think you might be missing the point that many of us are trying to make in response to Steve again and again. The Power FC, AEM EMS, and Haltech only work with their respective software provided by their manufacture. You cannot take AEM PRO software and tune a Haltech, Power FC, ViPEC, or whatever. If Nistune had made software that ONLY worked with their ROM boards, I'm certain that they would give out the software for free. NISTUNE is a universal Nissan ROM editing software which has a significant amount of development time in it, and that is being put into in currently. I don't think it is fair to ask Nistune to loose money on their product. I personally made the investment in the dealer license, because as person who tunes car on a daily basis for a living, I can appreciate software that works. People are complaining about the small license fee that they charge, heck, I've had to spend close to $3000 for just one of the rom editing softwares I have.
That's my .02 cents.

Let's try to keep it on topic and leave the useless name-calling and finger-pointing out of here.

[kandyflip445]

I actually didn't know there were other threads.

Again, I think the thing about the licenses is about the DIY customer. I understand needing the support for the software, the time and money it takes to revise it and make it better.

What I'm saying about it is:

If you take a AEM EMS, a guy buys one second hand. Same engine, same car. He can go DL the software for himself and get going with tuning the EMS.

With the Nistune, if you bought the ecu second hand and the licenses were used by the previous owner, then you have to buy a new license.

This isn't ideal for the DIY'er that is trying to score a good deal by buying a 2nd had ecu.

I believe that if Steve really wanted to tune Nistune cars he would purchase the Tuner license. But I can't speak for him.

I think he's mearly pointing out the difficulty his client has had with it and would like insight to what can be done for those 2nd hand buyers out there.


I, BTW, am planning to purchase one near the end of this year. After moving and stuff is done. ><

I like the way the software looks, the price, and the growing community around this tuning solution.

[sidewaysstarion]

How will Nis-Tune as a company address re-selling, as is extremely common in
the Nissan community....you can just look to the massive for sale section on
Zilvia for example to know how common and popular this is in the Nissan
community.

We do it already. We transfer license keys and blacklist old ones.

Regards
Matt Brown
NIStune Developments
www.nistune.com (http://www.nistune.com/)


All you have to do is contact Matt Brown at nistune and he can transfer the license over to you.

[handinpants]

Finally, thanks phlip

Everyone,
Knock off the arguments and bullshitting.
Next time I have to come into this thread to clean up after people who apparently have no interest in constructive contributions to it, I am pinking people.

[jr_ss]

Haltech... That is $1500-$2000+ (that doesn't include a custom harness for the car)

Just to clarify, you don't need a custom harness for the Haltech. They make a patch harness that allows the Haltech unit to plug right into the factory harness and use all the factory sensors. With the patch harness comes the harness for the IAT and MAP sensors. There are provisions to add other controls as well. Depending on what Haltech unit you go with, you're looking at $1300-$1700, plus the patch harness cost. You can buy a flying lead harness, but I only see that necessary if installing in a custom chassis, or a custom swap situation.

Like stated, Steve is merely pointing out an issue he has ran into. Having a maximum of 3 allowable addresses and 5 ID's does hinder potential secondhand purchaser's. Perhaps the new customer should have to transfer the license into their name (secondhand purchaser) for a minimal fee that allows them to reset the license procedure and have 3 fresh addresses and 5 new ID's available to them for use. This will protect Nistunes assets, and allow the new customer the chance for full access to their system if the first owner has used all the available addresses and ID's.

[steve shadows]

If you take a AEM EMS, a guy buys one second hand. Same engine, same car. He can go DL the software for himself and get going with tuning the EMS.

With the Nistune, if you bought the ecu second hand and the licenses were used by the previous owner, then you have to buy a new license.

This isn't ideal for the DIY'er that is trying to score a good deal by buying a 2nd had ecu.

I believe that if Steve really wanted to tune Nistune cars he would purchase the Tuner license. But I can't speak for him.

I think he's mearly pointing out the difficulty his client has had with it and would like insight to what can be done for those 2nd hand buyers out there.




exactly...

And also trying to help other dyno tuner shops who dont have a large customer base of Nis-tune customers but would like to support them in the case that they come to them for tuning of the unit without having to buy a SPECIAL set of licenses to be capable.

these are all perfectly valid questions about this unit.

Nothing is perfect and when a company or "supporters" who are directly tied to a product make massive claims as a tuner as someone WHO IS FAMILIAR with the product I have a perfectly good place to make a comment or a question directly about certain aspects of the unit. I am sure these questions being directly answered by Nis-tune have been helpful to other board members as well.

If you have ever followed me on here and other forums- I was extremely harsh on the AEM unit when it first came out as well, I have tuned hundreds of them now either remotely or on the dyno and eventually AEM worked out it's issues, the biggest being the CAS mis-fire issue, which it remedied with an updated CAS wheel.


I am looking out for my customers and believe it or not - trying to help nis-tune make it's product more accessible and easier to sell to consumers and tuners who would like to recommend the unit to even more potential customers...

[4x4le]

Guys, you really arnt reading this thread. Im kind glad its hear because mine didnt get cluttered however I have a thread just like this that has been going for a while and most peoples questions are answered in it.

If anyone has any nistune suggestions just go to nistune.com and email them there. No one in this thread can change their business model for you.

Like I said, I have a clean thread with this threads same purpous. No need for this one but keep your crap out of mine.

No one with complaints seems to know how to read. How many times does it need said that the software can be transfered if the license holder agrees to transfer it and you ok it with Matt @ nistune first. That is free to do. The people with this complaint didnt read their user agreement to know they could do it, then come in this thread and say you cant do it even though NIStunes owners statment is posted in this thread specificially stating you can.




1) Is the type of board you need specific to the engine only or does it have anything to do with the car? I have an s13 with a s14 KADE-T so would I just get the s14 KADE board (type 3)?

Board type is determined by the ecu being used. So did you do a harness swap and ecu swap or do you have the s13 ecu running the s14 motor?
s13 single cam is type 1
s13 kade is type 3
s14 kade (95 only) is type 4

2) Let's say I know I'm never going to tune my car. Can I just buy only a board, install it, then just take it to a Nistune dealer to get it tuned using their license? Basically I just save money on software and cable and put it towards tuning time.

yes, many people do this actually

3) Let's say I do buy the board and the software. If I sell my car with the board still installed and get a different car, I just have to buy a new board and can keep using my old license? I can do this 3 times? is that what's meant by 1 individual license getting 3 address files?

each ecu has a different ID (finger print if you will) You can tune 5 different ecu id's providing you dont exceed 3 address files.
An address file is a file that tells the software what the information in the bin file is for. Each different ecu (for different types of engines) use a different address file.

4) Why does an individual license come with more ECU IDs than addresses? Is it so you can tune multiple ECUs with the same board?

No, it has nothing to do with the board. say you have 2 s13s, both with s13 sr's. You can tune both of them with no limitations and still can tune 2 different address files weather it be s14 ka, z32vg30det, ect. and the grand total of ecus tunable will be limited at 5

Thanks.

Answered in bold

[SidewaysGts]

but would like to support them in the case that they come to them for tuning of the unit without having to buy a SPECIAL set of licenses to be capable

Can you explain this special lisence a bit more for us?

[kandyflip445]

Guys, you really arnt reading this thread. Im kind glad its hear because mine didnt get cluttered however I have a thread just like this that has been going for a while and most peoples questions are answered in it.

If anyone has any nistune suggestions just go to nistune.com and email them there. No one in this thread can change their business model for you.

Like I said, I have a clean thread with this threads same purpous. No need for this one but keep your crap out of mine.

No one with complaints seems to know how to read. How many times does it need said that the software can be transfered if the license holder agrees to transfer it and you ok it with Matt @ nistune first. That is free to do. The people with this complaint didnt read their user agreement to know they could do it, then come in this thread and say you cant do it even though NIStunes owners statment is posted in this thread specificially stating you can.



Answered in bold

Thank you for restating that. I think I missed that in the reading, about contacting Matt@Nistune to transfer.

I don't see these as complaints. They're questions that benefit the community to be answered. And isn't that why this thread is here?

[jeb1517]

Answered in bold

Thanks!

My $0.02: As a consumer, I would rather pay twice as much for something done right as apposed to half as much for something done wrong. In NisTune's case, I would be paying LESS than half as much AND it's done right. This is a very rare case.

I don't understand where people are coming from when they complain about licensing fees. An individual license and 5 boards allows you to have 5 TUNED cars at the same time. With the competitors' products, 1 ECU = 1 tuned car. How much would it cost to have 5 tuned cars with Power FC?

[steve shadows]

Thanks!

I don't understand where people are coming from when they complain about licensing fees. An individual license and 5 boards allows you to have 5 TUNED cars at the same time. With the competitors' products, 1 ECU = 1 tuned car. How much would it cost to have 5 tuned cars with Power FC?

You have to buy 5 boards just as you might have to buy 5 pfcs to run them on 5 cars simotaneously. You are comparing hardware cost not software access being limited by licenses.

You should be saying if you buy 5 PFCs you can have 5 tuned cars, just as if you buy 5 Boards you can have 5 tuned cars.

On a Standalone ems you don't need any license or allowance for the software. You can hook up the laptop to any car with said EMS and just tune it after downloading the free software off the companies website. Nothing to hold you back no matter what car has the unit. There is no limit t how many units you can tune at all, it's infinite as long as the unit has free download-able or requestable software from the manufacturer.

Also then the only thing separating shops is who has the best experience with that particular unit. It's not based on who has the License to open up all the functions or who paid to actually get access to tune a customers unit if he happens to bring on in on the off chance.

Obviously the NIS-Tune boards are cheaper than EMS Standalone ems so this is a plus in the hardware department especially if you can have the install performed for a limited cost or if you do it yourself

[jeb1517]

You didn't answer the question.

How much would it cost to have 5 tuned cars with Power FC?

[4x4le]

Steve, the amount of time you have spent talking about how the software should be free you could have tuned 2 cars, which would have paid for your license and made you some profit.

Its cool, you have an opinion and your entitled to that. However you have already stated it and were tired of hearing it now. No one is forcing you to do nistune. If you dont fine, if you do your going to have to pay just like everyone else.

We all get bummed about lots of things. I was going to keep this quiet because i didnt want to bitch about another companys business model like you however im quite upset about this. Although AVP (me and andy) are #1 in US sales for nistune however we dont meet a rule to sell uprev. We dont have a dyno, we use a friendly shops down the street. I dont want to spend $60k on a DD when ther is one minutes away owned by some good people that i dont want to compete with.

Look up uprev and tell me what you think about that. Its a cheap cable and really REALLY expensive software. No real hardware. Should the cable cost 900 and the software be free?

[steve shadows]

You didn't answer the question.

I know if you buy EMS in volume you can usually get about 35-40% off list price, so probably about 825-735 dollars per UNIT car for brand new units (at least from who I talked to regarding wholesale or direct volume pricing).

If you own 5 SR cars per your example though... you would only have to buy ONE PFC and then just swap it from car to car and change the maps by simply loading a map in, takes seconds.

I have a couple customers who do this. They also do this with the a plug and play unit that (Starts with an H ends with a C) , you just buy multiple Patch Harnesses and one H*****C ECM. You can then use that ONE unit on your: Toyota, Nissan, Mistu, Honda etc etc, and can swap it from car to car.

So it's just one time charge of 1K and each seperate patch harness for each different make/model car is 150-200 bucks per car.

I am not trying to compare the Nis-tune on this pretex though. Nis-Tune is not a full standalone EMS, it is a solution for tuning the Fuel Maps and Timing maps on the Nissan ecus that is a bit more affordable than a ECU Replacement unit and I think it does a good job of doing this.


Steve, the amount of time you have spent talking about how the software should be free you could have tuned 2 cars, which would have paid for your license and made you some profit.

Its cool, you have an opinion and your entitled to that. However you have already stated it and were tired of hearing it now. No one is forcing you to do nistune. If you dont fine, if you do your going to have to pay just like everyone else.

I have enough time to do both. It really doesnt take any "time" really to just reply case by case to a thread regarding questions and info. That is just part of what i do as a contributing member of the forum. Which by the way this is one of the only ones I still do come on.

We all get bummed about lots of things. I was going to keep this quiet because i didnt want to bitch about another companys business model like you however im quite upset about this. Although AVP (me and andy) are #1 in US sales for nistune however we dont meet a rule to sell uprev. We dont have a dyno, we use a friendly shops down the street. I dont want to spend $60k on a DD when ther is one minutes away owned by some good people that i dont want to compete with.

I'm sorry that you are bummed out? I am not bummed out about anything if that is what you are inferring? I am in a great mood today actually. Sorry you are not.

What is a rule? I am not sure what you are talking about in your example?

I don't personally own the DD, Mike Kondo does, from the Partner, if you have ever gone on my site at all you would see this...

Look up uprev and tell me what you think about that. Its a cheap cable and really REALLY expensive software. No real hardware. Should the cable cost 900 and the software be free?

I dont really know what you are trying to say about uprev?

No pictures of what they are selling, I am assuming it is just a link cable to the ECU data port? and you can read or write directly off of it without needing any modification etc?
So they are selling an interface Software? Not a hardware stand-in?

Sorry I really am not trying to get off topic here but I am trying to address your point now

[4x4le]

uprev is like nistune for obdII cars. No daughter board needed and highly expensive software. only hardware is a cable. I wanted to be a dealer but I dont own a dyno so I cant period. I cannot even buy a tuners license.

I was 1 wondering what you thought about $900 software and a cheap cable. Should the cable cost $900 and the software be free? (I was being a smart ass there)

Up rev is really cool, they have strict rules to even use their products and thats fine, I didnt try to change their mind because I know that would be useless.

All my point was is people will run their business however they like, especially when the money is flowing in good. It is hard at times for the nistune boards to even be produced as fast as they sell so were really lucky that the price is as low for it as it is. Supply and demand says they should cost more. Nistune customers love nistune and accept paying for the software. I used to be a customer of nistune, just someone that bought a license..... I never once felt as if it should have been free, I was actually happy it was so inexpensive.


We all know your stand on it, I can respect your opinion, but I cannot respect you being a broken record. You dont have to remind us everyday that you think it should be free, we wont forget that you disagree, I promise.

I know your big into stand alone tuning and coming from that background your used to free software. Software that costs is nothing new to ecu tuning however unless your using tuner pro, a chip burner and moats emmulator then its free. Check out the cost of tuning software to tune mustang ecus, dsm link, the stuff for evos, lsx ecus, even some honda ecus have a license cost each time you tune a ecu. Uprev is pretty expensive too and there are strict requirements to even purchase a tuners license. There is actually a license Im going to consider that is fully unlimited, made by another company for obd2 nissans that costs a flat fee of $2500!

The thing is if you eat the cost of the software (as a tuner) and the customer only has to buy a cheap board, or in some cases depending on the type of ecu they have dyno time only you are more likely to have customers come to you because they dont have to drop $1k on a standalone to end up with something for you to tune for them.

[steve shadows]

I am not talking about UpRev, they are tapping an etirely different market.
UpRev is not saying their product is a stand in for a Standalone EMS

If I had more info maybe I could tell you but they have a right to run their business however they like...JUST LIKE NIS TUNE DOES...etc-
I don't understand why all of you guys who are not part of Nis-tune are freaking out so much about a little bit of personal critism about Licenses.

I don't really know why it's like a bloodsport from your side of the screen you obviously have some serious vested interest that the perception of Nis-tune be nothing but puppies and kittens and daisies. And that's fine, but It's a public forum and people who want to ask questions and reply to others asking questions is what a public forum is. Just as I have been told by the mods, if you want something that is not a open forum of Q and As then just buy more advertising.

And I am not being a broken record, I just keep addressing the same questions or comments that people keep asking me over and over and over.
If you read carefully I think Nis-Tune does a good job of being a cheaper alternative and I am not knocking that part of the unit... and I don't know why I have to keep repeating that either...

If I were Nis-Tune honestly I would provide free software to ANY SHOP that asked for it!
This would encourage Shops to PUSH your product on customers instead of directing them to buy other units with more free software or support and would in the end be a much bigger advantage. Because your base is always going to be the CAR OWNER, not the shop owner.

This is what H*****C did when they first came to the US and it was a huge success. Give the Tuners the benefit of the doubt that they know what they are doing and that they will catch onto your product and suggest it and build a community online of fellow tuners of the system who share tips, information and even have a whole FORUM dedicated just to Nis-Tune tuner shops who have free software with full access etc.

[4x4le]

The point blank answer to why nistune software costs is still the same reason, its not product specific. While you do have to have nistune to tune a nistune board, you dont have to have a nistune board to use the nistune board to tune with the nistune software.


Nistune dont state that ist a replacement for a standalone although many users do Q it as that.
UpRev defenatially does say its a replacement. I see their points but I see yours too, free software goes hand in hand with a standalone so thats still comparing apples and oranges.

(Me just speaking my mined here, and is not a suggestion im going to submit as its none of my business honestly how my franchise runs things)
Maybe a free license that is ONLY good for nistune equipped ecus and will not operate on a non equipped ecu would be a good idea if it were by request/application only for tuning shops.
With that said I wouldnt think it would be fair to paid license holders if free license holders got special pricing on boards or user licenses for their customers. I also dont think they should be listed as dealers, but I would see no problem with them being listed as a tuner.

There are many shops that have purchased licenses and even programmers but get their boards from us. They have no interest in emmulating or profiting on hardware. A free license to them may boost sales on boards possibly.

At the same time I think tacking on a price tag with software helps ensure the tuning shop does some reasearch. No one is going to spend that kind of money unless they make sure they know how to use it first. It would be really hard for people in australia to make sure people in other countries are qualified to use their software and if they arnt and a bunch of engines start popping when being used on nistune by bad tuners it could mean a bad name for nistune as a whole.

I honestly can see both sides, but the current way really seems to be working well as of now. When NIStune becomes a more "house hold" name for nissan tuning it would be a safer business move then to make it more open source once its more responsibly proven to the masses.


There is a shop here in nashville that charged a guy $600 for a tune on a nistune setup and it runs like total crap. Nothing wrong with the poor guys setup, the tuners just didnt do enough research (as well as the car owner possibly since if he would have googled he would have found us...). He has found us now though.

Anyways with that example, such a good shop getting a license for free would have been (and was) a bad thing. They used the customers software so it didnt cost them anything, and they didnt read anything about its operations and were un able to tune his car because they were learning while charging him at the same time.

[darkhalf]

hey guys... finally got my password working again. think the cookies were stuffing it up for me the other day


But only a small percentage of those who buy the unit are going to need extensive support directly from him...

depends what you call a small percentage... and extensive support. it tends to vary depending on the customer and the problem involved. sometimes its a vehicle problem, technical issue and sometimes its something i have to investigate further on this end. there is still a lot more things we can discover with the lower level details with Nissan ECUs


This is not Hondata, nor is it Windows 2000. It's a product modeling itslef on DIY market.

Yes we developed our boards for the market of those who were buying EPROM boards and emulators. We offered ourselves as a viable replacement which was easier to use.

However the software licensing was based similar to those of 'flash tunes' used in many systems such as Uprev (Nissan), ECU Tune (Suburu), LS1Edit (GMH) etc which are based on a business model of pay per vehicle. You will notice these costs are quite high per vehicle, compared to our costs

However we wanted to offer individuals some flexiblity of tuning multiple cars, but within certain constraints (ie not to be taken advantage of by tuners who emulate/EPROM burn for many cars)
UpRev - Engine Management (http://www.uprev.com/products.php)


I think it would be a lot more fair to the consumers if the basic tuning software was avaialble and did not need a license.

More fair to whom? Most tuning software is either (a) pay per tune (b) per license or (c) incorporated into the cost of the hardware. We are (b)


You would also have to agree with me that the "preferred shop list" or limiting the "workshop" software to only shops - will also LIMIT the number of tuners who will be able to fully exlpore the potential of the Nistune units for it's clients.

Yes it can be viewed as such. Its just our guide of those who are familliar with Nistune and request to be listed if they have a tuners licence. Not all our workshop holders are on this list btw. Some are still getting familiar with using it or havent asked to be listed yet (ones listed have approached us)


If you take a AEM EMS, a guy buys one second hand. Same engine, same car. He can go DL the software for himself and get going with tuning the EMS.

License is transferrable, second hand is not a problem here.Got lawyers at the moment updating the current agreement


With the Nistune, if you bought the ecu second hand and the licenses were used by the previous owner, then you have to buy a new license.

not true. Misinformation?


Let's say I do buy the board and the software. If I sell my car with the board still installed and get a different car, I just have to buy a new board and can keep using my old license? I can do this 3 times? is that what's meant by 1 individual license getting 3 address files?

Just uninstall the software and it resets the ECU IDs. The limitation was designed so that workshops dont take advantage of the individual license (i know of at least one which does EPROM burns who uses Nistune individual license for commercial purposes ...)


If I were Nis-Tune honestly I would provide free software to ANY SHOP that asked for it!

If you were Nistune you would be broke.... This is still secondary income for Nistune/PLMS. Costs of boards is high due to specialised components used and local manufacturing and its not something you get thousands of made in China. The boards are not a highly profitable item. If we were to increase board price to make it such (and include software costs) then it becomes more unattractive for those just getting the board fitted and car tuned by someone else or their friends. Some workshops just use the software for burning EPROMs so we only make a once off sale on software and then have to support them afterwards

If a shop wishes to tune a system, they can run the trial version which will allow them to do this an evaluate the software. They can use the inidivual license that a customer purchases or trial licence to do the job.

This is not an aftermarket ECU replacement. It is not advertised as such and it doesnt have the features to compete with Motec/Vipec etc. It is a system which provides retuning similar to re-FLASH based systems using our hardware and fortunately has found its place in the market

[4x4le]

Thank God your back on here!

Dark Half is Matt Brown from NIStune by the way guys.

[sidewaysil80]

i kinda feel like my question doesnt belong in here seeing as how all these super smart tuner dudes are slinging phrases i cant even begin to think what they mean. but real quick if i might be so bold as to inquire here...i went with the power fc djetro on a "race build" and it served its purpose beautifully. however a couple years later i went with a more streetable setup/s13 and was thinking about going with a reflash such as enthalpy or jim wolf. which brings me to the questions...

1. what are the pros/cons of the nistune system compared to a piggyback or more specifically a reflash (such as above mentioned)?
2. i know absolutley nothing about tuning other then my buddy has a shop that is quite good at it lol...so if i were to purchase the individual license and board, would he be able to tune my car/board as often as i would like? and from what i gather 2 more additional cars correct?

thank you (all parties) in advance for any information provided
-tim

[hexdmy]

i kinda feel like my question doesnt belong in here seeing as how all these super smart tuner dudes are slinging phrases i cant even begin to think what they mean. but real quick if i might be so bold as to inquire here...i went with the power fc djetro on a "race build" and it served its purpose beautifully. however a couple years later i went with a more streetable setup/s13 and was thinking about going with a reflash such as enthalpy or jim wolf. which brings me to the questions...

1. what are the pros/cons of the nistune system compared to a piggyback or more specifically a reflash (such as above mentioned)?

With Nistune, you are able to re-calibrate the factory Nissan ecu. If you are familiar with tuning Nissan ecu's , the investment in tuning time and the end result will be considerably better than what you would get using a piggyback. Piggyback controller modify either the inputs to our outputs from the factory ecu. The problem with this, is that there are often many control stratagys in the factory ecu that you have to work against to achieve the desired results. Sometimes the end result, even in the hands of someone who is a competent tuner, are less than ideal. Some of the more basic piggyback, such as the SAFC, can be downright dangerous. As a simple example, let's say we put bigger injector in a motor with the goal of raising the boost and making more power. If we were to use a SAFC to alter, or skew the signal going to the ecu to effectively lean out the mixture, we are telling the ecu that the engine is under less load than it actual is. The problem with this is generally, the ecu will advance the ignition timing when engine load decreases. I think you can see the issue with this.

2. i know absolutely nothing about tuning other then my buddy has a shop that is quite good at it lol...so if i were to purchase the individual license and board, would he be able to tune my car/board as often as i would like? and from what i gather 2 more additional cars correct?
Assuming that he or whoever was doing the tuning, was mindful enough to thoroughly familiarize themselves with the Nissan ecu and the Nistune tuning software, I'm sure that any competent engine calibrator could do a great job. If the person who you are considering is not willing to put the time into what I just mentioned, you may want to use an alternative system (stand alone) that they are familiar with or find someone else who is familiar with Nistune to tune your car.

thank you (all parties) in advance for any information provided
-tim

[steve shadows]

Sometimes the end result, even in the hands of someone who is a competent tuner, are less than ideal. Some of the more basic piggyback, such as the SAFC, can be downright dangerous. As a simple example, let's say we put bigger injector in a motor with the goal of raising the boost and making more power. If we were to use a SAFC to alter, or skew the signal going to the ecu to effectively lean out the mixture, we are telling the ecu that the engine is under less load than it actual is. The problem with this is generally, the ecu will advance the ignition timing when engine load decreases. I think you can see the issue with this.


Thank you for emphasizing this again.


This is not an aftermarket ECU replacement. It is not advertised as such and it doesnt have the features to compete with Motec/Vipec etc. It is a system which provides retuning similar to re-FLASH based systems using our hardware and fortunately has found its place in the market

[/COLOR][/FONT]

Thank you for being honest and clearing this up.

This is nothing to be "ashamed of" or intensely defensive about, as some of your distributors and supporters on this forum have been and have been initially very pushy is exclaiming that Nis-Tune is a full standalone EMS solution.

I totally agree that it is indeed an excellent stand in, but there are some additional differences between Nis-Tune and it's DIY format and a Motec etc.

Anyways I am going to step back from this thread and hopefully this can continue forwards, especially now that you NISTUNE are directly contributing to the thread and information here.

Hoepfully the other users and consumers on the board can revive the thread and ask you some direct questions and get more information that others need on the unit now...

[darkhalf]

Yeah I'm not being defensive etc, just clarifying our position because of how the unit was being labeled in this thread

Because of the way Nistune works, it is similar to other standalone units in how it is tuned and has been compared quite a lot to the PowerFC etc.

However one has to remember at the end of the day that it is a factory ECU and you arent going to have MAP sensing, launch control etc with one ... unless special modificaitons are made to the Nissan code (note this has been done by the likes of DeviousKA and Calumsult on the USDM KA24DE/SR20DE platforms using custom modificatioins and stealing inputs from environmental sensors ... but this not something easily rolled out or compatible amongst all vehicles)

There are still a lot of improvements to be had, such as indicating which maps are used when, and dealing other quirks inside the Nissan ECU but that is something I'm working on at the moment. All these things make tuning these units quicker and easier and more accessible. Gone are the days where ROM tuning was a black art known by few.

[Yellow4g63]

I took the plunge by ordering the Nistune software before I even bought my 1st board. I was just doing rom tuning for my N/A SR20VE with a Calum basic rom board. I tried romeditor then I tried Tuner pro for a few seconds then I heard about Nistune and I checked it out. This was before the free demo lol. I saw some pics and said what the hell I'll give it a go. I was shocked at how easy it made my rom tuning. I feel in love with the ease of use and ordered a board my 1st board a type 2.

I just ordered my type 3 and had a problem with it. Matt's customer service is unmatched and really hard to find these days :bigok:. He helped me get to the bottom of my problem after I emailed him the logs from the Nistune. My type 2 board was installed by this guy that didnt do a good job :( broken pin and I thought I was farked.
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q211/Bluerb240/nistune2.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q211/Bluerb240/nistune1.jpg
Keep in mind that I bought this board I think in late 07 and never got to use it yet (another long story). Matt said he could do a exchange just mail it back or he could send another strip. I shipped it back and got served lol I paid $40 to ship it back later found out I was a retard. Matt gave me a small discount on my Type 3 when he didn't even have too. I love the software and can't wait to tune my RB and my 13.1 n/a VE.

[sevenstar]

i saw a few posts back someone was arguing about a dynapack being a bad way to tune.

HOW IS A DYNAPACK DIFFERENT FROM OTHER DYNAMOMETERS?
The first and most obvious difference is the elimination of the tire to roller interface on a conventional roller dyno. The Dynapack eliminates this variable by using a hub adapter that provides a direct coupling to the Power Absorption Units. There can be no tire slip, no rolling resistance, and no chance of the vehicle coming off of the dyno at high speeds. Notice that this is called a variable. Sometimes it may be a problem area, other times it may not. Tire temperature, pressure, traction, etc are all variables that can change - not only from run to run, but during the run as well. Throw an unknown variable like this into the equation and your data has now become subject to a potentially high margin of error. It is obviously better if these variables could be eliminated - which is exacty what Dynapack has done. There are other associated problems with the roller method as well. Take tie-down straps for example. Most roller dynos use ratcheting tie-down straps to attempt to hold the vehicle in position while being tested. If the straps are cinched down tightly, the tire has become loaded even further, in an unpredictable manner. While this may be good for enhancing traction, it changes the rolling resistance of the tire - skewing the data further. Since these tie-down straps aren't perfect, the vehicle squirms around on the rollers - dramatically changing the tire drag during the run. If the vehicle is tested in two difference sessions, the straps can't be set exactly the same way twice in a row. Again, the data will be inconsistent. There have been of cases where the ratcheting tie-down straps were loosened by two clicks and the measured power increased by ten horsepower. What if the straps stretch - either from run to run, or during the run itself? Wouldn't it be great if all of these problems could disappear? With a Dynapack, they were never there in the first place.


ANOTHER MAJOR DIFFERENCE IS THE EFFECT OF INERTIA
Street wheels and tires spinning at high RPM have a large amount of inertia. A large steel drum spinning at the same ground speed has much more inertia. What you end up with is a giant, heavy flywheel attached to your engine. The inertia is such, that just trying to accelerate the mass of the roller is a substantial load for the engine. That is the principle that some roller dynos (or "inertia dynos" as they are also called) operate on. Accelerate a known mass to a measured speed over a given time and it can be calculated to equal a certain amount of power. There is nothing wrong with this theory, but like many theories, its application in the real world can be troublesome. How do you think your measurements will be effected by being subjected to this large heavy flywheel phenomenon? Will small fluctuations be noticeable? In a word, no. The flywheel effect tends to take small rapid variations and smooth them right out - as energy that should be going into the dyno is being wasted trying to accelerate a large lump of steel. This is great if you want your power curve to look like a smooth pretty line, but it doesn't give you much insight into what is really occurring. What if you eliminated the flywheel effect? While nothing that has a spinning mass has "no" inertia, when compared to the total mass of the wheels, tires, rollers, and other associated hardware of a roller dyno, the inertia of a Dynapack is practically zero. This allows us to precisely measure and display tiny rapid pulses and oddities that you may not have seen before. Now you have a window into areas that no roller dyno will allow you to see. Another benefit of having virtually zero inertia is the ability to change the rate of acceleration at will. In many situations, you may want to accelerate the vehicle at a different rate to simulate a specific condition. With a few simple keystrokes, Dynapack allows you to make the vehicle accelerate very quickly, slowly, or anywhere in between. Because of the lack of inertia and total control of the engine speed, Dynapack gives you choices that none of the competitors can even dream of - and as you know, choices are good!



REPEATABILITY
Dynapack dyno runs are repeatable to better than 0.3%. Other dyno manufacturers claim to be repeatable, but no other chassis manufacturer is even close to the level of repeatability the Dynapack achieves. One large reasons for this is because the largest variable of all has been eliminated - the tire to roller interface. Rubber tires don't hold traction against a steel roller very well. Add a year or so of use, and the rollers become polished by the tires and traction decreases further. Some companies charge extra for special coatings on the rollers - which quickly wear off. When you have this variable link in your data chain, you cannot have guaranteed repeatability - PERIOD. Sure a roller dyno itself may be repeatable, but as soon as you put a car on it, all bets are off. Many people think that this slippage only occurs in high power situations, but we've seen it happen with 250HP Hondas. Just ask some of the import tuners who have had guys sitting on the hood and fenders trying to get the tires to hook up. With the Dynapack, there is a direct mechanial coupling to make absolutely sure that there is no loss, no slippage, and no inconsistencies in this area. There is viturally no inertia to mask small details and the Dynapack uses hydraulics for the ultimate in sensitivity and precision. The Dynapack is absolutely the most consistent and repeatable chassis dyno in the world.



SENSITIVITY
The Dynapack can reliably measure minute differences not seen on other machines.
Some examples include:


.010" change in spark plug gap
Differences between various lubricants
The alternator load when the headlights are turned on (in real time as well)
A single step fuel jet change
Different spark plugs

that being said....

[johngriff]

Dynapaks are ok for tuning hondas, and low power vehicles.

Need something with manly eddy brakes to tune real cars.

This is a mans dyno.

Dyno Dynamics - Home (http://www.dyno.com.au/dyno/controller)

Don't get all bent out of shape because you couldn't drop enough dime for a chassis dyno.

Also don't thread hijack a month old thread just because you want to argue dyno's.

I am impressed an actual nis-tune rep is giving feed back here, keep up the good work, for reals. And seven star, get lost with your 8 posts.

[4x4le]

^^ Dark Half is the owner and designer of NIStune..... Very cool guy too!

[UNISA JECS]

Yeah I'm not being defensive etc, just clarifying our position because of how the unit was being labeled in this thread

Because of the way Nistune works, it is similar to other standalone units in how it is tuned and has been compared quite a lot to the PowerFC etc.

However one has to remember at the end of the day that it is a factory ECU and you arent going to have MAP sensing, launch control etc with one ... unless special modificaitons are made to the Nissan code (note this has been done by the likes of DeviousKA and Calumsult on the USDM KA24DE/SR20DE platforms using custom modificatioins and stealing inputs from environmental sensors ... but this not something easily rolled out or compatible amongst all vehicles)

There are still a lot of improvements to be had, such as indicating which maps are used when, and dealing other quirks inside the Nissan ECU but that is something I'm working on at the moment. All these things make tuning these units quicker and easier and more accessible. Gone are the days where ROM tuning was a black art known by few.

Matts a cool guy i'll be buying a Type 4 ECU from him for my P11 G20t soon.

On a side note its easy to add a MAP sensor if you have a Innovate LM-2 im sure you can do this with the LC-1 also, it what I do when building my fuel and timing maps, I can't imagine tunning anyway else, anyhting else would be guess work. Its very simple, I can't believe that im the only person doing this with Nistune. If your not doing this you should. Logging MAP and TP hand in hand is priceless.

[sevenstar]

Dynapaks are ok for tuning hondas, and low power vehicles.

Need something with manly eddy brakes to tune real cars.

This is a mans dyno.

Dyno Dynamics - Home (http://www.dyno.com.au/dyno/controller)

Don't get all bent out of shape because you couldn't drop enough dime for a chassis dyno.

Also don't thread hijack a month old thread just because you want to argue dyno's.

I am impressed an actual nis-tune rep is giving feed back here, keep up the good work, for reals. And seven star, get lost with your 8 posts.

why would apexi have a set of dynapaks if they have high hp cars? my point is, people buy dynos, i've heard and seen good things on dynapaks, and your "real man" dyno as well, i just stumpled upon this thread, and as for my 8 posts, well, wow man, you really have a problem with my 8 posts, you have a lot of posts yourself, you should be proud, maybe zilvia will send you a coupon for a free scoop of icecream for having your post count up so high!
but seriously, thanks for the low blow.

on the bright side the dyno dyanmics has this portible one that reminds me of the excersize equipment i had years ago, "When you're not using the dyno, store it under a workshop bench."
sweet

[hotrod991]

ok here comes the noob question...I am new to the turbo scene and just got my S13 with an SR. I am going to upgrade to a T28 and bigger injectors soon as i get home from my deployment, and I want to know if a nistune would be practical for someone like me who does not know anything about ecu tuning and just wants to get the optimal power and drivability out of my set up then leave it alone. I do not want to personally start messing with my ecu at this point, just want to get it to a dyno tuner and have it setup. Thanks for the help everyone and happy holidays

[DALAZ_68]

i think i need to update my software, havent hooked up my ecu to comp in months...lol

[4x4le]

ok here comes the noob question...I am new to the turbo scene and just got my S13 with an SR. I am going to upgrade to a T28 and bigger injectors soon as i get home from my deployment, and I want to know if a nistune would be practical for someone like me who does not know anything about ecu tuning and just wants to get the optimal power and drivability out of my set up then leave it alone. I do not want to personally start messing with my ecu at this point, just want to get it to a dyno tuner and have it setup. Thanks for the help everyone and happy holidays


Getting a nistune setup and haveing a pro tuner tune your engine and leave it alone sounds like a great idea for many.

[integramandj]

ok so I'm gonna bring this thread back from the dead I have a simple question I'm having trouble finding can I just buy the board without the license and cable

[UNISA JECS]

ok so I'm gonna bring this thread back from the dead I have a simple question I'm having trouble finding can I just buy the board without the license and cable


I have bought a board by itself in the past for my other Nissan/Infiniti cars I own since I already have the cable and software so I see why not.

[integramandj]

I would be bringing it to a tuner so I shouldn't need the cable or software right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[UNISA JECS]

I would be bringing it to a tuner so I shouldn't need the cable or software right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nope as long as your tuner has that stuff your good to go.

[integramandj]

cool thanx bro


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[Jays_240sx]

Do you offer ETuning? I'm willing to pay for this. If you do please contact me through text, email or even call me. 6033618095(usa). email: [email protected] (leave subject as ETUNE) thank you! I need a tune badly!