Sway bars what's good?

[hookedup240]

Hey guys just recently have been looking into sway bars. Can you guys just give me a run down of some good ones that any of you have for the S13, I'm not looking to spend a huge amount of money i saw a set for like 220 on Enjukuracing.

Any other feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[KiDyNomiTe]

a lot of people use whiteline, seems to be good, PDM carries them. There should be a review on the main page.

[mrmephistopheles]

I enjoy my whiteline bars. They are adjustable, unlike ST's.

[240Stilo]

What does adjusting do for the whitelines?

[hookedup240]

thanks i'm going to look into the whiteline ones.

[AceInHole]

Originally posted by 240Stilo
What does adjusting do for the whitelines?

makes them "stiffer" or "softer" depending on where you position the endlinks. I've heard a few negative things about the endlinks the whitelines come with, though.

[mrmephistopheles]

I've heard the stock endlinks with the whiteline bars work better, but I'm not going to test it until I can get some new poly bushings for the stock endlinks.

[sykikchimp]

Originally posted by mrmephistopheles
I've heard the stock endlinks with the whiteline bars work better, but I'm not going to test it until I can get some new poly bushings for the stock endlinks.

pep-boys carrys those...

[orange-grey]

I got the Suspension Techniques after seeing how crappy the Whiteline endlinks were. I didn't want to use the stock links with the WL bars since I heard you can really only use the middle setting on the rear without really tweaking the bushings. The adjustablity would be nice, but I'd rather have a "proper" non-adjustable setup. I had to use some washers and creativity to get the brackets to fit right though, and the rear bar taps my HKS Sport cat-back when shifting. If I was anything but a penny pinching tightwad I'd say spring for the Cuscos. They are 28mm/18mm instead of 27mm/20.6mm so they will not be as oversteery as the ST bars, which is good since combined with HA's the car is a bit spooky at times. On a strange side note, the ride was actually SMOOTHER with the new bars.

[SR240DET]

sorry to jack your post... but for an s14... would you need the D link for the Suspension Techniques.... how would you rate these compaired to w/l's.... im about to order some tomorrow... need some help... how would you think is the better route?

[Halz]

If you plan on deviating from the stock spring rates, Whiteline's adjustable bars make the most sense.

As far as I know, all of the antiroll bars on the market are 'tuned' to the stock spring rates. Changing the spring rates would change the roll rate, at which point, a non-adjustable bar could hinder the car's overall performance.

The 'problem' with Whiteline's endlinks was that people were not installing the bar properly.

See this discussion on Whiteline's techboard
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/whiteline/message/2401

Installing and tuning any suspension component should be done with the car are ride height (even struts/coilovers, to an extent.. the strut housing on the front must be 'resting' on the bolts. Granted, this would be taken care of shortly after the inital drive..)

Polyurethane bushings must not be 'tight'. The bushing is not at all like rubber. If a bushing is tight, is will bind, thus not allowing the bar to be very effective.

[sykikchimp]

Halz.. I just FAQed your post. EXCELLENT info.

[Grant]

good and cost effective, go with ST or whiteline..

if you have a lot of money to shell out, there is cusco, and nismo..
a good bar that cannot be attained here. Largus.

ST should be sufficient enough in my opinion.

[andrave]

Just how necessary are sway bars anyway? I am just stating to tune my car, still has full stock suspension. My first upgrades are going to be new bushings and control arms up front, and then I'm going to get new shocks. probably kyb agx, and then some tein type S or whiteline springs.
I really didn't plan too far beyond that. would aftermarket sway bars significantly help me?

[AuburnRyan]

IMHO, the sways are one of the best "bang for the buck" improvements on almost any car, with no downsides. Unless you have a hicas car (bigger stock bars), these should be one of the first suspension upgrades....side by side, I beleive your car would handle better with new bar vs. stiffer springs. If you do both, you'll be amazed how flat your cars stays. remember tires are very important as well, as only they contact the road and ****** tires (flexible sidewall) on stiff suspension will fold, screech, and slide in all the corners

[95silvia]

I have a friend running whitelines sways....

one with a 97 ka, whose bushings gave out.....

on the other hand, 95 s14 sr (muah) had no problems with the sway bar or the bushings......everything is just fine.....

btw, my friend didn't install his wrong......he did his install and my install the same way.....so i tend to believe that whiteline bushings are not the strongest but the product is awesome....we both have it on full stiff.......he runs spring/shock combo (don't remember what combo).....i run TEIN FLEX.....

I say whiteline adjustables, if the bushings go out, you can replace them with stock ones or buy the napa special...

RINKU

[sykikchimp]

Swaybars are indeed THE best bang for the buck suspension mod. period.

Sway bars are for controling sway. Springs are for controlling bump. if your springs are stiff enough to control sway, then they are too stiff. I'll be picking up a set of Whiteline sways in a month or so.

For the record.. JIC USA uses ST sways on their project s13.

[adey]

Originally posted by sykikchimp
Sway bars are for controling sway. YOU DON'T SAY!! hahaha.. sorry, I had to say it. :)

That said, I feel fine running my stock HICAS/JDM rear swaybar... for S13, that is. If you pull the HICAS rear sway out (or JDM rear sway) you'll find it's substantially bigger than the USDM non-hicas base model sway. :D good stuff.

[Dousan_PG]

cars dont sway
they roll
body roll
anti-roll bars is the proper term
i got the JDM one too. MUCH beefier. i'll take pics..one day..

[AuburnRyan]

IIRC, the HICAS rear is 21 mm, right up there with the aftermarket units

[orange-grey]

Originally posted by AuburnRyan
IMHO, the sways are one of the best "bang for the buck" improvements on almost any car, with no downsides.

Swaybars are a great tuning tool, but they do have downsides like anything else. First, by going to a bigger bar you're basically making your independent suspension less independant. This creates all sorts of problems on bumpy pavement as jolts are transmitted to the opposite wheel, making snap over/understeer more likely. Second, during breif high-g transitions it's much more likely to pull the inside wheels off the ground. You see this a lot on FWD auto-x cars, but I have witnesses saying I've gotten air under my inside rear tire with my ST bars. That said, for me I think the lack of roll without any increase in ride harshness is worth the compromise on a street car. On a full blown drift/track car a hard spring/stock swaybar combo seems to be the order of the day, and for good reason.

[sykikchimp]

No.. Hard springs cause erradic bump-steer. thats why it's call "BUMP" steer.. and not "Roll" steer...

Hard springs are a Crutch for having something else not tuned properly on your car, and can actually cause you to have much less traction b/c the wheel and chassis reacts so violently to sharp changes in pavement conditions. ESPECIALLY if you don't have much chassis bracing to force the spring and damper to absord the shock..

Having lighter springs (8front 6 rear IS light) and a stiffer sway bar will allow for the tires to be connected to the road better, and will increase speeds because your Transitions will happen faster because your car isn't rolling as much. When your car is mid corner, and body roll is locked by the sway bar, and you hit a bump, you still have travel in the suspension to absorb the bump without upsetting the cars balance.

If you have Hard spring, and light bars, then the sway is being controlled by the spring. If you hit a bump with all that roll pressure sitting on the spring mid corner with the car balanced, suddenly you upset the cars traction points. If your springs can't absorb the bump because they are busy controlling roll, the CHASSIS has to take the bump. This will make the car more unpredictable, and ultimately lead to slower lap times.

Balance, and Predictability are PARAMOUNT. If you can't run consistant lap times, or consistantly improve b/c something in your setup changes every lap, you don't get any better, and SURE aren't gonna win.



BTW - If you get the 240 to do some "Dog Pi$sing" 3 legged action, just means that you had all the traction being placed on the front opposite corner. The car isn't setup properly. My bet is your springs are too soft, and allowing for too much weight transfer to the front under braking. That combined with chassis flex while turning hard. (you probably like to trail brake?) will cause the rear tire to hang from your sway bar. Overall reducing your total possible traction

[HaLo]

Originally posted by AuburnRyan
IIRC, the HICAS rear is 21 mm, right up there with the aftermarket units

Except the HICAS rear is hollow... While the aftermarket ones are full.

[AJ]

is anyone else in agreement that most of the aftermarket sways are solid? i have no experience with them, but i'm pretty sure that would be stupid for a few reasons.

The sways would weigh a ton.

You can make stiffer bars that are hollow with less material while saving weight.

or i could be talking straight outa my ass...
are there any civil engineers in here?> they'd know for sure.

[orange-grey]

Originally posted by sykikchimp
No.. Hard springs cause erradic bump-steer. thats why it's call "BUMP" steer.. and not "Roll" steer...

Did that make sense to anyone else? Anytime you stiffen the suspension, the car is going to have more bump steer, whether its by harder springs or bigger sways. The only real difference is whether that bump is absorbed by one contact patch or two.

Hard springs are a Crutch for having something else not tuned properly on your car, and can actually cause you to have much less traction b/c the wheel and chassis reacts so violently to sharp changes in pavement conditions. ESPECIALLY if you don't have much chassis bracing to force the spring and damper to absord the shock..

Actually, swaybars are the crutch. Ideally, there would be no need for swaybars at all and every wheel would be completely independent. However, this would require incredibly stiff springs to control roll, hence, sway bars. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe F1 cars have no sways at all.

Having lighter springs (8front 6 rear IS light) and a stiffer sway bar will allow for the tires to be connected to the road better, and will increase speeds because your Transitions will happen faster because your car isn't rolling as much. When your car is mid corner, and body roll is locked by the sway bar, and you hit a bump, you still have travel in the suspension to absorb the bump without upsetting the cars balance.

If using Caddilac springs and wrist-thick swaybars is good suspenion tuning, I'd rather be wrong. If 8/6 is soft, whats stiff? The highest I've ever seen is like 10/9, which ain't a huge jump. And even if you mean hitting the bumpstops, the last half of that paragraph makes no sense.

If you have Hard spring, and light bars, then the sway is being controlled by the spring. If you hit a bump with all that roll pressure sitting on the spring mid corner with the car balanced, suddenly you upset the cars traction points. If your springs can't absorb the bump because they are busy controlling roll, the CHASSIS has to take the bump. This will make the car more unpredictable, and ultimately lead to slower lap times.

That jolt doesn't magically dissapear. The force just gets sent over the opposite suspension where its compesses the spring, and the force gets sent to (guess what?) THE CHASSIS! And in the meantime, that wheel that is actually on smooth pavement is trying to pull itself up into the wheel wheel. Predictable, indeed.

Balance, and Predictability are PARAMOUNT. If you can't run consistant lap times, or consistantly improve b/c something in your setup changes every lap, you don't get any better, and SURE aren't gonna win.

I agree completely. I just don't see how the soft spring/big sways accomplishes this.

BTW - If you get the 240 to do some "Dog Pi$sing" 3 legged action, just means that you had all the traction being placed on the front opposite corner. The car isn't setup properly. My bet is your springs are too soft, and allowing for too much weight transfer to the front under braking. That combined with chassis flex while turning hard. (you probably like to trail brake?) will cause the rear tire to hang from your sway bar. Overall reducing your total possible traction

Gee, if I had harder springs and softer sways, it wouldn't lift the wheel? Now you sound like me!