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sykikchimp
02-05-2003, 09:44 PM
What series (if any) is the 240sx really competitive in? It is easly a viable race car, with excellent suspension, and Chassis technology.. It appears to me, our main limitation is the engine. it is always limited by rules of whatever series as to what you can do.. severly limiting the Cars ability to be competitive against other vehicles with superior output capabilities.. So is there a series we fit in, that our cars are competitive in??

I'd especially love to know of one on the East coast..


What I think we really need is a series that allows the engine to be modified for forced induction or whatever means necessary (ala JDM engine swaps, ITB's, or whatever), but must remain under a specific engine output level. Kind of like a 200hp Sport Compact Car series.. no idea how rules could be laid out for something like that without excluding all other cars. Ok.. so maybe I'm dreaming of a Spec 240 class... or a East Coast Nissan Challenge. drool...


Charles
who wishes nissan hadn't stiffed us with the crap stock engine

SR20Fastback
02-05-2003, 09:54 PM
My KA blows :rolleyes: but I have plans on competing in ITA with it if I keep it. I think that the 89-90's are the only ones in ITA 240's at least.

tnord
02-06-2003, 01:33 AM
i don't think the 240 really is all that competitive in w2w competition. iirc, bbp shouldn't be doing as well as he is.......which is why he's an instructor :D . i wouldn't even attempt to enter any of the GT or production classes, as that requires a lot of money, and modification to a somewhat uncapable powerplant. if anything, the IT(A/S??) class is where to be. it's much cheaper, typically more even competition, and there's always somebody to race with. that said, i think ITS is where those damn E30's and 944's are. where the 240 might be competitive is in your cone dodgeing competition. the high torque low-rev-range output of the KA is actually an asset here, with lots of slow speed corners. now, when you start transitioning quickly and frequently, the relative porkiness of the car becomes an issue.

i really don't know how competitive it is, but my guess is not very.

bbp
02-06-2003, 06:50 AM
The 240 is a very competitive car in ITA. Bob Stretch has been dominating the CRX's down south. I think it is an ideal racer in ITA, RWD among all those FWD, except if it rains. Now in ITS, it is a bit of an underdog. I think if I can get a few more ponies out of that truck motor, it has potential of running up front. The E36's and now the 944s will be the dominate car until they add some weight to them. I think the 240's handling outshines most of the other cars (rx7, older datsuns, etc) just needs power, alot more power. I placed 6 or 7 consistantly in a 30 car field last year. I felt that was pretty strong for a car no one else has really developed and it was the first year for my car in IT.

So to answer yuor question... yes it is competitive in both ITS and ITA, more in A less in S.

HippoSleek
02-06-2003, 07:35 AM
Oh sure - start a reply and then come back to it and see that Mike has taken all your good points. :rolleyes:

I agree- except that I think the 240 gets too much credit in ITA. Stretch has developed the holy H-E-double hockey sticks out of that car. There are a few that run up front, but CRXen still pretty much filled the top spots at AARC. Granted, if I were to build an IT car, that would be it.

I also appreciate Mike being an s14 vanguard in ITS. I think he's doing great in a car that is an undeveloped new-comer. There are are couple ITS s13's running in MARRS, but they run mid-pack (I know nothing about the drivers or their level of development). I know another person who is currently building an s13 for ITS here that I hope will be competitive shortly. I think what is really needed for this car are the pimpy products that are out there for the front running cars. People have developed the FC RX7, 240z, CRX, etc. to the limits. The 325 is such an overdog that it is running up front w/o any IT development (granting that BMWCCA and Euro racing has brought out its stronger points). Still, given the work that has gone into these other cars, I agree that the 240 could have a reasonable shot in ITS, but for the 325 and the Comp Board's reluctance to make "adjustments."

Besides Charles, you could always just buy a Miata.

Mark - who's shopping.

sykikchimp
02-06-2003, 11:25 AM
I've actually been looking into those lately.. I think I'm going to stick with the 240 though. I've already got a large amount of money invested in the car, and I really like the way the project is turning out. Me and the 240 have "bonded" lol

Anyways.. whats the real differences between the S and A classes? Seems S would be somewhat more liberal with mods than A?

I probably just need someone to point me to the appropriate rule books.

btw - Mike, what kind of power are you putting down with your car? What kind of power do most the cars in ITS have? just wondering how big, the "big" deficit is. Seems to me ITS would give me a better place to have some good competition to run against, and an excellent environment to get better in (once I get to that level)

What do you guys think? A novice racer would be better off Starting in ITA or ITS? would an ITA car be able to move to ITS if he wanted to without major changes to the vehicle? How about vice-versa.

Thanks for the help guys...

bbp
02-06-2003, 12:09 PM
The way IT works is basically, each car is classed in a particular group. The mods allowed are the same in each class, so S doesn't allow any different mods, they are just determined to be a little faster than A (which isn't always true). The official rulebook "GCR" is available from SCCA. I reccomend anyone thinking about going racing to buy one or get an older copy just to understand the rules. Dont try too hard to figure out why such and such is classed where it is and why their weights are what they are, cause alot of the time it doesn't make sense. SCCA does not guarantee any car will be competiitive in it's respective class, it just gives them a place to race.

I believe I was putting out 155 bhp while I know of an E36 putting out just under 200bhp. They just walk away from me on the straights! I hope to get the car back on the dyno this summer and see what my current motor is making.

BTW: single cam KA are in A .....DOHC are in S

tnord
02-06-2003, 12:38 PM
Charles-

i strongly recommend not spending another dollar on modifications until you read the GCR (General Competition Rules) for the SCCA, NASA, MC, or whoever you're going to compete with. AFAIK, IT modifications are fairly limited to keep costs down, which is why there are so many competitors, and why it's so much fun.

sykikchimp
02-06-2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by bbp

BTW: single cam KA are in A .....DOHC are in S

So I'm stuck in ITS then... your running a robello motor aren't you?

bbp
02-06-2003, 12:46 PM
sunbelt- built for showroom stock, basically just added a header and KN filter. thats about it other than whatever they did internally.

sykikchimp
02-06-2003, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by tnord
Charles-

i strongly recommend not spending another dollar on modifications until you read the GCR (General Competition Rules) for the SCCA, NASA, MC, or whoever you're going to compete with. AFAIK, IT modifications are fairly limited to keep costs down, which is why there are so many competitors, and why it's so much fun.


Just ordered the SCCA GCR. Already read the NASA stuff.. not much point though.. I can't race with them :(

HippoSleek
02-06-2003, 12:50 PM
I'll take a few of the leftover points --

As for your development of the 240 - I'm trying to remember what you have done. The GCR is very strict. I've heard a lot of people cry when the had to remove years of mods to start building to class rules. The best thing you can do is to buy a pre-built race car. In the long run, you will save more money than you'd ever imagine. I'm sure you could "bond" w/ a nice ITA SOHC car... it's all the things you love (and about the same power :D LOL )

As for starting off driving in A vs. S, I think A is the winner there. ITS cars are generally faster than ITA cars. For that reason, ITA is a better place to hone your reactions (b/c things happen slower), a better place to hone your skills (b/c if you can keep momentum in a slow car, you can do it in a fast one), and - honestly - a better place to crash (b/c you aren't going as fast in many of the danger spots).

I just deleted a whole speil about what group might be easier to learn to race with b/c I think that's more important that in what class, but suffice it to say, I will get my SCCA license, then run mostly NASA events until I am comfortable racing w/ the big boys.

bbp - 155? OUCH! You have the pimpy Sunbelt motor, but are you at the edge of the rules in terms of build up (isn't there a fair bit left after SS)? I guessed you'd be able to get 165-170 out of a pro-built motor if properly set up. Any ideas for a custom built header? If Nissan doesn't have the equivolent of a Puckett or Hytech or SMSP or whatever, it needs it.

**edit* I gotta type faster -- I'm already OT :confused: **

bbp
02-06-2003, 12:56 PM
It's not built to the extent of the rules, far from it, prob just balanced and blueprinted. My plan was to develop the suspension and get it out there before dumping money into the motor. thats next year or now that i have twins, next next year:)

Its probably around 175 or so at the crank. just guessing!

HippoSleek
02-06-2003, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by bbp
thats next year or now that i have twins, next next year:)

You don't want to wait too long, or they can't get their little hands into the tight spaces to properly build the motor :D :D :D

Probably a good idea on the motor last. Once I get an SM together, I plan to run on a junkyard (stock) motor until it dies. I can't see any reason to dump money into the motor until the driver and the car are sorted out reasonably well. 5 hp isn't going to do nearly as much for my lap times as consitency in a drivable car.

Mark - who rebuilt his first motorcycle engine at about 9.

hurleyboi514
02-06-2003, 03:41 PM
practically everyones said it already, but the IT seems to be the best class right now to race a 240. im considering building an IT car in the next year or two. i know a guy that races BMW's professionally, and he said that the dominant cars in IT right now are CRX's and the 240's.

sykikchimp
02-06-2003, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by HippoSleek
I'll take a few of the leftover points --

As for your development of the 240 - I'm trying to remember what you have done. The GCR is very strict. I've heard a lot of people cry when the had to remove years of mods to start building to class rules. The best thing you can do is to buy a pre-built race car. In the long run, you will save more money than you'd ever imagine. I'm sure you could "bond" w/ a nice ITA SOHC car... it's all the things you love (and about the same power :D LOL )

Yeah.. I was thinkin about that as well.. From what I can tell there is more you can do to the SOHC motors anyway.. not sure how much of that would be IT legal though.. :sigh:


As for starting off driving in A vs. S, I think A is the winner there. ITS cars are generally faster than ITA cars. For that reason, ITA is a better place to hone your reactions (b/c things happen slower), a better place to hone your skills (b/c if you can keep momentum in a slow car, you can do it in a fast one), and - honestly - a better place to crash (b/c you aren't going as fast in many of the danger spots).

I agree.. but I don't think the speeds would that much different because I would be running the same car either way.. they others guys might be a bit faster, but I sure won't. I've run with a couple E30 bmw's that were preped, and was only beat up by the highly preped one. I still had stock worn out suspension at that time.. Couldn't be THAT much different either way.

I just deleted a whole speil about what group might be easier to learn to race with b/c I think that's more important that in what class, but suffice it to say, I will get my SCCA license, then run mostly NASA events until I am comfortable racing w/ the big boys.
Run SM with NASA? and then move to SCCA later?

sykikchimp
02-06-2003, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by hurleyboi514
practically everyones said it already, but the IT seems to be the best class right now to race a 240. im considering building an IT car in the next year or two. i know a guy that races BMW's professionally, and he said that the dominant cars in IT right now are CRX's and the 240's.


That sounds awesome.. It'd be kickass having another 240 guy that will run IT with me. MUHHahaHaHaHaHah death to all those silly CRX's lol

HippoSleek
02-06-2003, 05:13 PM
That sounds awesome.. It'd be kickass having another 240 guy that will run IT with me. MUHHahaHaHaHaHah death to all those silly CRX's lol

Not IT IT"A". IT is a type of racing (Improved Touring) -- A, B, C, S, and E are classes within that type. The SOHC 240 is eligible for ITA and the DOHC goes to ITS. B & C are sub-100 hp cars (yup, they still exist, don't ask why they have their own class while the Se-R and Civic EX can't move to ITA and get slaughtered by 325's in ITS ).

I wouldn't worry too much about power from a KA24E in ITA - 140/1-- tq compares favorably w/ the CRX si. They have less power, less weight, so the end is fairer than it looks on paper -- but the power advantage is significant.

I agree.. but I don't think the speeds would that much different because I would be running the same car either way.. they others guys might be a bit faster, but I sure won't. I've run with a couple E30 bmw's that were preped, and was only beat up by the highly preped one. I still had stock worn out suspension at that time.. Couldn't be THAT much different either way.

Huh? The class killers in ITS are e36 325's (not that an e30 won't rip a 240 a new one...). At any rate, trust me, you don't want none of that.

Run SM with NASA? and then move to SCCA later?
Yup -- my plan it to get my SCCA provisional license, do two regional events to get my full regional license, then do NASA events until I get some more seat time in a racing environment.

**edit* oh yeah - check out some of the regional results in ITA - there is always a 240 on the podium! :cool: http://www.wdcr-scca.org/results/

hurleyboi514
02-06-2003, 05:59 PM
i think id much rather go for ITA, rather than ITS. i dont think i could keep up... i think the 240 ive got now will just be my street car for a while if i do go ahead and do that. id rather have a cool street car and a race car, than say a new 350Z. even if they are 12 yrs old... :( but hey, if i get a break, and go pro, ill have a new Z... :)

tnord
02-06-2003, 07:02 PM
does the SCCA have any kind of "continuation requirement?"

for example......

in MC you have to finish at least 2 events/season in order to retain your full comp liscense.

sykikchimp
02-06-2003, 07:12 PM
I realize it's ITA and ITS.. I said IT b/c Ken didn't specify, and I don't know where I'll end up yet..

Still got a lot of research, and learning ahead of me. :)

bbp
02-06-2003, 07:29 PM
yes, at least 2 races in a season to maintain current license.

hurleyboi514
02-06-2003, 08:35 PM
that doesnt seem to terribly stressful, two events a season? of course, i dont quite know all the costs yet, but ill find out.

charles, i just said IT b/c i wasnt quite sure what sub class of IT the 240 was in. turns out there are two possible classes depending on engine...

tnord
02-06-2003, 11:37 PM
it's not like there are only 2 races total for the whole season. people have problems competeing in them all for numerous reasons:

-track is too far away
-on vacation
-work
-money
-busted car
-family

if all i wanted to do was 2 races/season, i'd have to ask myself: am i doing this for myself, or others?

sykikchimp
02-07-2003, 09:31 AM
Mark, remember Joe with the Green S14mc? He's finishing up his 92' s13 racecar. Not sure what series he's gonna run in, but I'm finding out more info. I would assume it would be ITS.

It would appear the 240's are comming on with avengence. :)

HippoSleek
02-07-2003, 09:49 AM
Yeah - he's building for ITS. I wonder if it will be at VIR this month? iirc, he doesn't have his SCCA license yet, so it may be another year b/f he's racing.

Honestly, given the classing in ITS, I'd be surprised if there are many more 240s going there. I bet there will be a good number in ITA in another two years. I think the bandwagon that is being build around there car will allow more/cheaper parts. Parts, or at least moderately priced, available parts, were definately the 240's weekness before the last year.

sykikchimp
02-07-2003, 11:12 AM
nope.. he's not gonna be at VIR either... I have a feeling my 240's going to be quite lonely..