got my VLSD (pic)

[xhdriver]

just got it today, it has adjustable camber things as an extra bonus.
http://www.az240sx.org/albums2/satanscar/Picture.sized.jpg

anyone know if i need special fluid, ive been told no but im not positive.

[Driftin_240sx]

hey looks nice..how much u get it for and were from??? let me know how the install is.

david

[JRTurbo909]

ya, where did you get it from? I am looking for this exact thing. How much did it set you back?

[xhdriver]

i got it from heavy throttle for $500ish, it looks very clean

[AKADriver]

use regular gear oil. LSD fluid additive (friction modifier) is for clutch-type LSDs.

[gschroeder78]

Originally posted by xhdriver
anyone know if i need special fluid, ive been told no but im not positive.

You can use Redline 75W90.

[BBSHT240]

Go with the redline!

[Foxcolt]

What adjustable camber thigies? I don't see anything aftermarket on that subframe? Are they bushings?

[AKADriver]

Looks like some sort of offset bolts/bushings, yeah.

[HippoSleek]

so would that have been cambered out/really low, but using the stock sway bar?

...and people say there's no such thing as rice in Japan.

[xhdriver]

so would that have been cambered out/really low, but using the stock sway bar?

maybe the previous owner used them to correct the camber?

[Dousan_PG]

Originally posted by HippoSleek
so would that have been cambered out/really low, but using the stock sway bar?

...and people say there's no such thing as rice in Japan.

what's wrong with the stock sway bar? its very common for people to use the stock ones in japan!

[HippoSleek]

Call me old fashioned, but if a car is 2+ inches lower (the min. height at which you would need camber correction), I would expect that such a central peice of the suspension would have been upgraded. Maybe it's a JDM thing, but I bet we have more people here in USDM w/ bars than w/ camber correction.

The other side is that I really don't respect people w/ slammed cars on the street... and anyone who was actually *serious* about performance would have upgraded the bar(s).

[Dousan_PG]

actually, many drifters in japan use stock sway bars!!

why upgrade the sways when your spring rates are 8/6 and stiff valving? you wont have body roll anyways. why waste money on sway bars? my friend w/ JIC FLT-A2s didnt have much roll on his s13, stock sways as well


i've got whitelines. i dont like them. the endlinks blow. i replaced the fronts w/ stock fronts and it helped quite a lot. i'm going to do a track event w/ the stock sways and see how it feels. my springs (coilovers) are 8/6kg btw


edit: if you want me to defend this, i should be able to. i can scan up pics of some cars from japanese magazines tonight (if i have time, replacing my starter)

[SHINCHU]

yeah im am short one starter and 30 bucks wealthier. heheh. thanks for the cash man. i need it! glad to hook someone up with stuff they need when it would have just been sitting around otherwise. too bad you had to go. i could tell we had way more we wanted to BS about, but i know how it is when there just isnt enough time in the day. well, have fun in HK man!

chris

[d240t2]

Those offset bolts are the factory camber and toe adjustment.

They are on your car...go take a look.

Dennis

[HippoSleek]

Originally posted by d240t2
Those offset bolts are the factory camber and toe adjustment.

They are on your car...go take a look.

Dennis

:cool: never had my subframe just sitting there. I fell better now.

dousan - I always fail to think about "drift" set ups. I guess if the goal is to avoid traction anyway, that would be the way to go. :rolleyes:

[Dousan_PG]

dousan - I always fail to think about "drift" set ups. I guess if the goal is to avoid traction anyway, that would be the way to go

no there is A LOT of traction in the rear. people use STICKY tires on the track. its just a matter of control
they have time trials on how fast you can do the course drifting. it is still racing just totally different style of it. you still use race lines, just the way you go around is different

professional (such as D1) use HUGE sway bars (largus).
amateurs, usually just use stock (from what i've seen in mags ad such). but the pros (like on D1) are coming into a corner sideways nearly 80+mph (3rd or 4th gear...sometimes 5th!! YIKES)

[HippoSleek]

We should be admiring the fact that someone is lucky enough to have the correct final drive ratio in their car :thumbsup:

Dousan - We've beat that horse to death. Suffice it to say, drifting is NOT racing and CANNOT be done while maintaining race level traction with the rear tires. So long as there is some variable other than the stopwatch that determines the winner, it is not a race. Super-G is a race, Freestyle Moguls is not. 500m Speed Skating is a race, Ice Dancing is not. Not that those other events don't take a similar kind of skill and control to racing, but they are NOT racing.

[Dousan_PG]

Dousan - We've beat that horse to death. Suffice it to say, drifting is NOT racing and CANNOT be done while maintaining race level traction with the rear tires. So long as there is some variable other than the stopwatch that determines the winner, it is not a race. Super-G is a race, Freestyle Moguls is not. 500m Speed Skating is a race, Ice Dancing is not. Not that those other events don't take a similar kind of skill and control to racing, but they are NOT racing



I NEVER SAID IT WAS RACING (in the most commonly seen way: grip racing) i said it was a STYLE!

i never said you need race level traction
racing is also by time trials as well, is it not? if racing isnt time trials then what do you call auto-cross?

when you say this:


. So long as there is some variable other than the stopwatch that determines the winner, it is not a race


i said there are TIME TRIALS (see below) so that would b e stop watch. autox is the same, so if auto x using a stop watch and that is a racing and if you are drifting a course w/ a stop watch how is that NOT a race??


its just a matter of control
they have time trials on how fast you can do the course drifting. it is still racing just totally different style of it. you still use race lines, just the way you go around is different


meaning
you are still racing TIME WISE, not speed wise (or number of laps).
obviously you arent gong to have the same times if you do grip style racing (the type you are referring to).

i never claimed drifters are racers, yet there are people who do both (taniguchi, keiichi, etc).

its a style of driving

for being on a 240sx board where the car is immensly popular in japan for drift, you are oddly close minded.

sorry for the insult but it seems everytime someone talks about drift you have to have such a closed and negative mind and have to insult it and be an ass.

me, i like them both. i love driving both styles. i'm still new and learning a lot but i cant get enough of both. i think might go to an auto-x soon..maybe in jan/feb.

[HippoSleek]

1. Drifting as racing:

Originally posted by dousan36
I NEVER SAID IT WAS RACING (in the most commonly seen way: grip racing) i said it was a STYLE!

Actually, you said above (and quoted below):
it is still racing just totally different style of it.
And you repeatedly differentiated from "grip style racing" below (as if there were any other kind).

You can't have it both ways - it is either racing or it isn't. I took that line to mean you were stating that drift competitions were races. Do you mean drifting for timed laps? I don't get it. If I don't drift, I will go faster and, hence, win. So that seems like it should be a race to the bottom (i.e., whoever drifts the least will have the fastest laps). (which you seem to accept) - Originally posted by dousan36
you are still racing TIME WISE, not speed wise (or number of laps).
obviously you arent gong to have the same times if you do grip style racing (the type you are referring to).

If you want to call it racing, do so in a clear manner. Don't beat around the bush. I have clearly stated it is NOT RACING, but it is a STYLE OF DRIVING. There is a BIG difference - just as freestyle mogul runs are NOT RACING, but is a STYLE of SKIING.


2. Time trials, autox, and racing:
Originally posted by dousan36
racing is also by time trials as well, is it not? if racing isnt time trials then what do you call auto-cross?
***
i said there are TIME TRIALS (see below) so that would b e stop watch. autox is the same, so if auto x using a stop watch and that is a racing and if you are drifting a course w/ a stop watch how is that NOT a race??

Just becuase you are holding a stopwatch doesn't make something a race. The winner needs to be selected based on what that stopwatch showed. Yes, autox and time trials (even one lap time trials, as in SOLO I, are a form of racing. They are timed competitions who's victors are determined based on purely objective criteria (even use of a PAX index is objectively verifiable). Drifting, on the other hand, is based on subjective criteria - there is no machine to calculate who was the best. Thus, drifting is like a performance sport rather than a race. Hence the comparisons above.

Now, if you are relaying that there is a drift competition where the winner is picked based on lap time alone (even if one lap), then it falls into the trap above. Whoever drifts least will win. If there is ANY other criteria, other than time that is used to select the winner, it is subjective and, accordingly, not really "racing."

If, however, by "racing," you mean going fast in a car; then, under that definition, you are correct and drifting is racing. But I think that is entirely too broad a definition of racing.


3. Need for traction:
Originally posted by dousan36
i never said you need race level traction

but by saying...
Originally posted by dousan36
no there is A LOT of traction in the rear. people use STICKY tires on the track.

... you implied that there was a significant need for traction in the rear. Now, I'm not knowledgable about the pro-circuit, but I know that amateur drifters to NOT go drop tons of money on "R" compounds for the rear b/c the goal is to break traction and maintain that in a controlled state thoughout a corner. Sticky tires are used in the front to maintain control, while cheapos that are easy to keep spinning (i.e., NOT STICKY) are used in back. Beyond cost and ability to spin, using a sticky tire in back would mean that it would be a less durable tread compound that would likely disintegrate before the end of a single drift lap.

Again, you have to chose a position - either they need rear traction or they don't? But you can't say on one hand that drifting is all about sticky tires and traction (to counter my argument against using aftermarket sway bars) and then act as you didn't when I question it.


4. Drifters can be racers:
Originally posted by dousan36
i never claimed drifters are racers, yet there are people who do both (taniguchi, keiichi, etc).

its a style of driving

Actually, because you keep insisting on "grip style racing" and "drift style racing," maybe you are so claiming - but that seems to vary by post. In any event, there is nothing mutually exclusive about drifting and racing. Just as someone who can be a mogul racer can also be a mogul freestylist.

They use certain over lapping skills - no one denies that. A good drift driver has developed many of the same skills as a racer, just as a racer has developed many of the skills of a drifter. Oddly, when there was a drift competition out here and certain Japanese pros were flown out from CA, the winner was a local SCCA racer ( in his ITA prepared 240sx). Similarly, some people who excel in NASSCAR are actually very good drivers (as evidenced by the US winning a recent world motorsports/driving challenge using two NASSCAR drivers - over countries that were putting up a rally driver and an F1 or F3000 driver). Good drivers are good drivers - either racing (road, rally, or other) or drifting.


5. Personal
Originally posted by dousan36
for being on a 240sx board where the car is immensly popular in japan for drift, you are oddly close minded.

sorry for the insult but it seems everytime someone talks about drift you have to have such a closed and negative mind and have to insult it and be an ass.

me, i like them both. i love driving both styles. i'm still new and learning a lot but i cant get enough of both. i think might go to an auto-x soon..maybe in jan/feb.

I can appreciate that you like them both. I respect drifting and enjoy watching it. But as for the suggestion of close[d] minded, I suggest that you examine what that term really means. Does it imply blind belief in the rightness of something or thoughtful examination of alternatives?

I love driving in all its forms. I love driving events - road racing, rally, drifting, hill climbs, whatever. What I don't like are legions of holier than thous that swing on the collective sack of all things JDM like so many lemmings. Honesetly, I don't give a fvck about what the car is popular for in Japan... or Austrailia... or Europe... or even here in the US.

What I don't like are people that justify modifications because people in Japan do it. Especially when that justification runs counter to the long held universal tenants of performance tuning.

What I don't like are people claiming that because drifting involves fast cars and race tracks that it is, de-facto, racing.

What I don't like is being told that I am close[d] minded for having the insight to razor through hype and examine utility.

If you can't justify something with more than "because that's how drifters in Japan do it" your opinion has ZERO value. It's like the response of "because" to a earnest question - it answers nothing. However, if you can rationalize why something is the case, your answer should not be "because that's how drifters in Japan do it," but something more like - "you don't need an after market sway bar because the spring rates will allow sufficient damping in the rear while reducing slip angles, beyond the level of adjustment capable with a sway bar."

But that is never the answer around here. It wasn't, and isn't, the answer here either. Anyone who knows about suspensions will tell you that a sway bar is a tool for fine tuning your suspension for maximum performance. It is cheap and it can solve a wide gap of problems - even if they don't use them in Japan.

As for my offensive stance toward drifting - you fail to realize that I was commenting on how stupid it was to have camber correction w/o a sway bar. I didn't rolleyes at drifting until it was raised as a defense to poor suspension developement.

Indeed, this seems to have ended where it began - how dare I insult Japan and drifting by hinting that slamming your car to the point of needing camber correctrion - without such basic mods as a sway bar - wasn't a good idea! Your response, then and now, - b/c people do it in Japan.

My response was that for optimal performance, one would do well to adjust other aspects of suspenion before slamming the car. Your reply - JDM DORIFTO - and real, live JDM pictures to prove it was the way to go.

My reply was then and is now, that if you want maximum performance, and hence traction, out of a rear suspenion, you would be better off being higher from the ground (i.e., no need for camber adj.), and running an adjustable sway bar. If, however, maintaining rear traction is not priority #1 (as it is not for drifters), this might be the way to go.

So, as you can see, it is actually you who insisted on raising drifting, and you who rationalized what is usually considered a sub-optimal modification order by relying on Japan and drifters. Some people think that is all the rationale that is required for modifications - others refuse to be another lemming on the drift sack.

Take it as you will.

[Dousan_PG]

ah i c what you mean. understand.

btw, i have whitelines haha..but i dont like them. i changed to stock endlinks and its much better. doing the rears soon too.
probalby going back to stock and running the 25th event on stock sways and see how it feels.


as far as "what they do in japan" i am not "jdm is best"
i'm anti-sr. but that's another story. anyways.

[HippoSleek]

I know - I've seen you hit the JDM-ophiles before and I know that you respect both racing and drifting (as do most true enthusiasts).

It might take some getting used to the Whiteline bars. Are you running an aftermarket suspension? They should be excellent for dialing the handling in just to your liking. The only dilemma I could see if if you have too much rear rate and then you are adding a stiff sway. But if you are just replacing the endlinks, that would mean that you have kept the bar, but eliminated the adjustibility? What was the problem w/ them?

[Dousan_PG]

thanks. i know i get all riled up here and there.....

anyways. sways.

a lot of body roll. let me grab some pics

my current suspension:
whiteline sway bars front adn rear (adjustable ones)
tein TC rods
Tein HE coilovers (8kg/6kg)
dupree subframe spacers
camber:
front: -3 Bridgestone RE730 205/55/15
rear: -1.5 Dunlop FM901 205/55/15

this is with STOCK endlinks on whiteline sways (i made them URL rather then pic, they are the full size image). i also had the damper on the HEs at FULL STIFFNESS:

EDIT YOU HAVE TO ADD HTTP://WWW. before each of them manually. that was the only way i could get the full weblink becaues cut and paste and weblink didnt work (kept shortening it).

imagestation.com/picture/sraid41/pee9bc7454bd0021985e4f8e262237e99/fcf4c1a2.jpg.orig.jpg

imagestation.com/picture/sraid41/p6594cee8889b13d6e3b232559526781d/fcf4c276.jpg.orig

imagestation.com/picture/sraid41/pb394f081ceab532f2a28bf5024428554/fcf4c20c.jpg.orig.jpg

you'll want to cut and paste it...due to size

now i know there are some factors: speed and turning angle. so i know posting this doesnt help a lot due to: in one turn i might have been going 30mph in another 10mph..etc. and how hard i turned. but the roll is PRETTY big for 8/6 imho. maybe i just prefer higher spring rates?! i hate body roll. daily comfort is not a serious issue to me. i dont drive all that much everyday.


now with STOCK endlinks for fronts on whiteline sways:

imagestation.com/picture/sraid44/p3f540f29148d5b047b5ad70876fd846b/fcdc0a6b.jpg.orig.jpg

imagestation.com/picture/sraid44/p4506431fe4fb247d611eed6bb913ff4b/fcdc0aa6.jpg.orig.jpg

sorry not much after change, my friends rode with me or driftheaven during the day so no one on sidelines taking pics for use. all inside the car shots/vids.

now for my impressions.
wow. huge difference. same track now as well. the car in general handled FAR better imho. my friend who rode with me said it felt bettter as well. there's a few turns on the track (its streets of willow) that before the body roll was UNBEARABLE and i had to decrease my speed by quite a lot ('the bowl' part of track). with the stock endlinks on it, the roll was greatly reduced and i was able to keep up with cars in front and not slow down cars behind because i was able to come into and thru the corner far faster (and more comfortably) then before.

overall, i plan on getting stock front endlinks for the rear sways as well. or getting z32 aftermarket ones (much nicer then stock) and possibly using those on front AND rear.

i dont know many people who tried this but when i first got the sways i was very unimpressed with them. when toso saw them when i had my wheel off he wouldnt stop laughing..bastard! haha..
anywyas, any thoughts?

oh the settings i use are full stiffness on both front and rear.

using the stock front endlinks i put full stiffness in front and got new bushings (rubber) for them from pepboys. hard rubber, feels good. going to try and find poly ones though instead i think. i belive they are firmer..can someone verify that?


any thoughts HippoSleek? anyone?

PS: if the images dont work i'll redo them.

edit: if someone else has their stock sways try it out too, maybe its just me psychologically thinking its better...need a second opinion here. someone who does track/auto-x is good. daily driving u cant tell.

[sykikchimp]

I'm confused? .. both your links sections are labeled.. With STOCK end links and whiteline sway? Did you mean the first ones were whiteline sways with stock WHITELINE endlinks? and the second set of links where whiteline bars with OEM endlinks?

Are you saying you got LESS sway with OEM sway bars with the OEM endlinks using Hard bushings from pepboys over the Whiteline sways??


(all of this makes me want cusco sways more and more...)

[Dousan_PG]

sorry it wont let me edit my previous post now..too many edits..my bad.


first was:
whiteline endllinks
whiteline sways


second was:
stock endlinks
whiteline sways

[HippoSleek]

start a new thread for your topic and explain a bit more clearly. I think you'll get better input that way.