OBX Strut Bar

[burgy240]

I know this is really basic but I haven't even tried yet.  I just got my car back after putting on the Tokico Blues and H&R sport springs, and I am going to put the strut bar on soon.  I just thought I'd ask,  Is it easier to put the bar on after the mounts are attached or attach the entire unit together and the install it.

[DSC]

Most ppl say just jack the front end up to take the weight off the wheels and screw the sucker on. I haven't got mine YET but I don't think its nessesary do it along with anything. I'd attach it after, it sounds easier to me but either way will probably work. BTW, how do you like your springs/shocks so far? I wana see pics.

[burgy240]

I Love my new suspension so far!!  It feels great and really responsive.  I'll post the before and after pics soon, but I want to let the set up settle first.  It's already slightly lower today than it was three days ago.  Anyway, I'll post the pics later.  Thanks for help too.  I'll have to jack it up later!!

[96SEChick]

From experience, the best way to install a strut tower bar is to park your car level--leave it on the ground.  Unscrew the 3 nuts on the strut mounts on each side, and slide the bar on, then screw all the nuts back on.  Don't jack the car up.

[konkman]

You have to jack your car up.  That's how you preload the strut tower bar.  If you don't you are making the car more rigid.  I think whateverjames had some diagrams on a past post that illustrated this.  

Jack the car up, then install it.

[konkman]

Sorry, it was Lance;

<a href="http://www.zilvia.net/forums/cgi-bin/topic.cgi?forum=2&topic=625" target='_blank'>http://www.zilvia.net/forums/cgi-bin/topic.cgi?forum=2&amp;topic=625</a>

It's about 3/4 of the way down.

[Zenki Two40]

yeah, but look at hipposleek's post. both of them sound like they make sense. nebody got ne updates on this topic?

&quot;Hey Lance - update from a guy that is the suspension guru over on another board (and also serious autoxer and IT class racer):

Well I don't know if I can help you, I really want to be hostile right now, none of this touchy-feely friendly crap. &nbsp;
When you install your STB, you want it to be neutral when the chassis is statically loaded, ie on the ground at rest. If you set it neutral with the car up on a jack when you lower it you'll place undo stresses on the bar which is not good for performance. What happens is the bar will get built up residual stress do to it being constantly loaded. This will over time weaken the structure to the point where the bar will become really ductile or brittle depending on the material and in turn this defeat it's purpose, to strengthen the chassis. Definitely install the bar with the car on the ground and set it neutral so there's no pushing or pulling of the bar on the chassis. &quot;

[burgy240]

Just a thought about physics......I believe raising the car would in fact set it at a nuetral Zero(gravity being eliminated because it is a constant force whether it is in the air or on the ground) thus install at zero would create an outward force against the chassis counter to that of the ground pushing against the struts. &nbsp;therefore maintaining the &quot;actual distance &quot; between the two strut towers rather than the &quot;current distance &quot; between them after the force the towers are expressing when loaded(ie on the ground). &nbsp;Actual performance difference should be minimal between either set up &nbsp;because in both cases the distance between the strut towers(therefore the opposite sides of the chiassie) is maintained. &nbsp;However, I believe &nbsp;that install while lifted will create a maintained box between the towers and the strut bar that will keep the maximum rigidity once thecar is then lowered. &nbsp;Follow me? &nbsp;That is solely based on my Knowledge of Physics in the simplest description. &nbsp;I have been wrong before though.

[transient]

That makes more sense to me, but I really don't know too much about the subject.

[whateverjames]

the first time i've heard of installing STB's while the tires are on the ground, was here. i'm not saying it's wrong. but i don't see what the difference is really. i installed both mine with the tires off the ground because it's always what i've heard (and i installed them before lance's post) but it's like one of those things like they say high compression and forced induction aren't good, but how would i know, i've never done it....it's just what they say <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> &nbsp; &nbsp;but ####, one of these days i may take them off then put em back on lance's way.

[Zenki Two40]

i guess i kinda understand that one guys quote a little better cuz if it's put on while in the air, when it comes down it will be really tight basically n wear it out a lot faster over a little bit of time. then it won't be doing its job of strengthening the chassis. i also can c why it would be better to put it on while lifted. oh well...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from 96SEChick on 1:13 pm on Dec. 16, 2001
From experience, the best way to install a strut tower bar is to park your car level--leave it on the ground. Unscrew the 3 nuts on the strut mounts on each side, and slide the bar on, then screw all the nuts back on. Don't jack the car up.
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It even helps when you have a car it can fit on too, and one that hasn't been wrecked. :-)

[vancouvers14]

if you jack up the car, make sure the suspension doesn't fall out when you take the bolts off

[DSC]

I figured don would know, so I asked him <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> &quot;Leave it on the ground. Jacking it up and preloading it is a waste of energy.

Don&quot;

[whateverjames]

looks like i'll be reinstalling the STB's tonight the right way. &nbsp;i'm buying a cam from don tonight too. woohoo.

[burgy240]

Who's DON?

[whateverjames]

don johnson, that 80's singer

www.pdm-racing.com

[HippoSleek]

Nothing from me to update really *shrug*. &nbsp;I stand by both my logical post and the reply I got from the other guy. &nbsp;Another point that was raised in my discussions on this is that many cars are stuck with non-adjustable STBs (like factory Honda bars) which do not universally fit all chassis (due to slight manufacturing tolerances) and cannot have the ends installed before the middle (harder to line up both sides at once). &nbsp;As a result, these often require either jacking the car up or pulling on the middle of the bar when installing.

burgy - I agree with your end result, that there will be little difference in performance of the bar, but I disagree with your premises. &nbsp;I have not studied physics for about 10 years, so here is an idoit's version... &nbsp;I think that when you raise the car, the weight of the suspension components, wheels, etc. causes the chassis to &quot;sag.&quot; &nbsp;Thus, the difference between the strut towers is not some &quot;actual&quot; distance (as though created by the factory and factored in while engineering suspension geometry), but rather the distance created when placing outward strain on the chassis. &nbsp;When installed and lowered, this strain (now inward force) is then placed on the chassis through the bar. &nbsp;The force of this is applied to the bar, which would eventually lead to failure of the bar or distortion of the chassis. &nbsp;This force is constant, even at a stand still (i.e., static conditions), and is only increased under cornering. &nbsp;The &quot;loaded&quot; distance (i.e., not raised car), on the other hand, does not place stress on the bar or chassis under static conditions. &nbsp;During cornering, however, as force is applied to the wheels, the bar works to maintain the distance and, accordingly, receives this force. &nbsp;Still, even then, that force would be less than the other b/c it doesn't have to prefactor in the counter-chassis sag force. &nbsp;In other words, maximum rigidity is not created by generating outward force (against the inside strain created by the install) on the chassis during static conditions, but instead by reducing inward force on the chassis during cornering. &nbsp;All of this said, keeping in mind that the point of the bar is not to reinforce the chassis in static conditions, but only when load/force is applied causing distortion during cornering.

My diagrams are as follows - like Lance's, my lines represent the chassis, not the wheels:
1) &nbsp;the chassis in its ideal state with no pressures:
&nbsp; &nbsp; |==|
2) &nbsp;problem to be solved for by a STB - chassis distortion when cornering due to excess force being applied to the side of the car bearing the brunt of the turn-in load:
&nbsp; &nbsp; |==\
3) &nbsp;the position of the chassis when bar is installed in a static position:
&nbsp; &nbsp; |==|
4) &nbsp;the position of the chassis when bar is installed in a &quot;preload&quot; or raised position:
&nbsp; &nbsp; \==/

As the bar only braces, it seems most advantageous, to me, to have it brace under static conditions which are more like the conditions desired through use of a STB at turn-in.

I can say that I installed mine on the ground, can feel it working, and have no complaints. &nbsp;Of course, I wouldn't expect an &quot;in air&quot; install to feel any different - only expect eventual harm to either the bar or chassis over time.

[HippoSleek]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from DSC on 10:22 am on Dec. 17, 2001
I figured don would know, so I asked him <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> &quot;Leave it on the ground. Jacking it up and preloading it is a waste of energy.

Don&quot;
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#### people going for help while I'm typing up my opus!! <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

[transient]

hahaha.

[LanceS13]

It was over a year ago I read that preloading article and I've yet to find it since (BTW, in the thread posted, I'm simply passing on something I'd read...didn't just come up with it myself). &nbsp;I'd argue the point, but frankly I've forgotten the grounds on which to do so. &nbsp;Standing back and looking at both sides, both have their valid points I guess. &nbsp;

[burgy240]

I have to agree with hipposleek. &nbsp;I used the previous posts before my last one as a basis when in fact they were technically wrong too. &nbsp;therefore making my concepts wrong. &nbsp;I assumed a static zero when car is raised, &nbsp;but actually hippo is right there would be a negative (outward pull) force on the frame and strut towers if raised. So then &quot;zero force&quot; would have to be a hypothetical thing where the wheels were supported but not completly on the ground either. &nbsp;Since that is way to much math and an &quot;ideal&quot; only then when the car is at rest on a flat surface should be considered &quot;normal&quot; and therfore everything that Hippo said about the forcesat rest and during cornering could be assumed. &nbsp;IMHO then, it should be installed with the car sitting on a flat surface and not in the air. &nbsp; Thanks Hipposleek. &nbsp;I guess it's been awhile for physics but some of that still IS lingering around in that head of mine. hehe <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

[96SEChick]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from krunko on 10:47 am on Dec. 17, 2001[br)It even helps when you have a car it can fit on too, and one that hasn't been wrecked. :-)
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hahaha, very funny.

[uuninja]

You have real problems (or are making a lot of power) if the static load for the front of the chassis is expected with the front wheels off the ground. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

[burgy240]

I put mine on this morning(wheels on the ground!!) and I love the stiff feel. &nbsp;The front end wants to turn right in, it's awesome.

[HippoSleek]

bugy - good to hear. &nbsp;I could notice the difference immediately. &nbsp;(although now I need more tire! &nbsp;It never stops...)