Ignition Issues

[exitspeed]

The Situation:

I bought the coupe and it had a "tricky" ignition. You would have to kind of press down of the key to get the car to start. Sometimes it would start with ease and sometimes it would be a little more difficult. I loved with it though.

The end of winter I replaced my entire interior, dash, carpet, ect.

I didn't drive the car all winter and forgot to disconnect the battery. Needless to say, when I was done with my interior, the battery was dead. If I put a charger on it I would get power on the inside of the car, but that was it. It wouldn't turn over.

So yesterday I went and bought a new battery, put it in, go to start it and no dice.

I have power in the interior, but it won't start.

I'm clueless on how an ignition even works.

So my questions is, is it completely shot now? Did I perhaps forget to plug something back in that would not let the car start? I found a thread about replacing the ignition, but I'd like to try an eliminate some other problems first.

[Adam240]

Does it click when you turn key? And do you lose interior power when you turn key? Could be bad starter cable or bad solenoid or even relay.

[projectRDM]

Take the switch off the back of the cylinder and try starting it with a screwdriver. Odds are the switch is just worn and won't fully click over to start, it's just plastic and can be wear down from use, creating a larger slot for the cylinder to fit into. I've replaced a few before due to that very problem.

[Adam240]

^^Ahh well i guess if you had to fiddle the key around already that would make sense. I had to do this on my CRX a while back.

[exitspeed]

Take the switch off the back of the cylinder and try starting it with a screwdriver. Odds are the switch is just worn and won't fully click over to start, it's just plastic and can be wear down from use, creating a larger slot for the cylinder to fit into. I've replaced a few before due to that very problem.

I read another post that said I will have to drill out three security bolts to get the ignition out. Is that correct? Can i use any drill bit, or does it need to be some type of special one?

Is this what a typical ignition looks like? Where would I put the screwdriver to start it.

[Adam240]

The screw driver thing is ment for the white plastic piece on the back of the metal cylinder. Seperate them and use the screwdriver "As the key" in the white piece.

[exitspeed]

Ok. Gotchya.

Do I have to remove those security bolts to get the ignition out to do that?

[los_inc]

once you remove all the plastic on the steering column you should see it
-los

[exitspeed]

once you remove all the plastic on the steering column you should see it
-los

I've had it all off already. My main question is, will I need to remove "security" bolts as I read in another thread. No one replied to that thread after that was posted confirming that or not.

Also, if I replace the ignition, do I need a new key, etc? What is that process like?

[projectRDM]

No, and no. The switch is screwed to the back of the cylinder with #1 philips head screws. The self shear screws are used to hold the cylinder on the column, you won't be touching that at all. Any 89-94 switch will work, and I believe even some of the other models like 89-92 Stanzas and 93-97 Altimas, but verify first. I have a few available to sell but they're packed up right now, otherwise I'd just go ahead and mail you one.

[exitspeed]

No, and no. The switch is screwed to the back of the cylinder with #1 philips head screws. The self shear screws are used to hold the cylinder on the column, you won't be touching that at all. Any 89-94 switch will work, and I believe even some of the other models like 89-92 Stanzas and 93-97 Altimas, but verify first. I have a few available to sell but they're packed up right now, otherwise I'd just go ahead and mail you one.

Ok. I'll give it a shot tonight. If I do need one how soon could you send me one and how much?

[projectRDM]

Ok. I'll give it a shot tonight. If I do need one how soon could you send me one and how much?

Just remembered we have a wrecked 92 sitting behind the old building, I can grab it Friday.

[surreybc]

http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=85879


take the switch off and see if the key turns the t thing that fits into switch. see the pics.

[wiggafly808]

It could also be a bad starter..
I would have to stick the key in and wiggle it around, then after a few weeks it died on me.

Give your starter a good whack and see if it starts.

If it does, your starter solenoid is probably bad and you need a new starter.

Good luck,
Zac

[Stoichiometric]

Take the switch off the back of the cylinder and try starting it with a screwdriver. Odds are the switch is just worn and won't fully click over to start, it's just plastic and can be wear down from use, creating a larger slot for the cylinder to fit into. I've replaced a few before due to that very problem.


Hmm, It might not be the wearing out of the plastic slot. The slot is quite deep. I've experienced this slot wearing out with my previous Hondas but haven't seen it with the 240's. It is possible though, since i've replaced the "ignition" pigtail in which the worn out slots are in, about 6 times.

Remember, when turning on your car, and turning the ignition switch, take your time and do it periodically, click by click. Some people just jump in the car and turn the key at full speed and full turn in one motion which is probably the cause to 95% of the igntion switch failures.
Could be this thingie at an 80% confidence.~ (Ignition Switch Pigtail which projectrdm is referring to);

Get another pigtail from the junk yards.

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm45/stoichiometric240/D1418D.jpg

[exitspeed]

^
OK, that all makes much more sense. Thanks for the info everyone. I won't have time until tomorrow to work on it. I'll let you know how it turns out.

[projectRDM]

Hmm, It might not be the wearing out of the plastic slot. The slot is quite deep. I've experienced this slot wearing out with my previous Hondas but haven't seen it with the 240's. It is possible though, since i've replaced the "ignition" pigtail in which the worn out slots are in, about 6 times.

Remember, when turning on your car, and turning the ignition switch, take your time and do it periodically, click by click. Some people just jump in the car and turn the key at full speed and full turn in one motion which is probably the cause to 95% of the igntion switch failures.
Could be this thingie at an 80% confidence.~ (Ignition Switch Pigtail which projectrdm is referring to);

Get another pigtail from the junk yards.

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm45/stoichiometric240/D1418D.jpg

I've replaced a lot of them. It's not the depth of the indention, it's the shape of the cutout that wears and becomes enlarged, so the cylinder has to turn farther to make contact. Once you reach start position there's not enough throw in the switch to make contact.

[g6civcx]

Okay, look. S13 ignition switches are really simple.

Disconnect the negative battery wire and unplug the ignition switch harness.

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/9674/stocktq3.jpg

Check the FSM for specific colour for the ECU wire and pin location.

Using a multimeter, you want to test for continuity on the ignition harness on the side of the switch. You don't even have to remove the switch. Just remove the lower steering column cover and pull out the harness.

Key off, there should be no continuity on any pin.

Key turned to acc, continuity only between white and blue.

Key turned to ON, continuity between white, blue, and white/red.

Key turned to start, continuity between white, white/red, white/black, and white/blue.


If you can check all that, you know your switch is good and the problem is elsewhere.


Check back with me after you've checked all that, or if you have questions. It should only take you 5 minutes to check continuity between the pins.

[exitspeed]

g6civcx I don't have a multimeter handy right now. I'll borrow one over the weekend.

I did pull out the switch and used the screwdriver to turn the socket. It still didn't start.

Does that mean it's a starter or something other then the switch?

[g6civcx]

g6civcx I don't have a multimeter handy right now

That's not an excuse. You don't need a multimeter. Just a continuity tester.

You can rig one up with a battery and test light. You just need something to tells you that you have continuity.

Even if you bought one, most places sell them for $10-20 at most, or are you in the middle of nowhere?

I did pull out the switch and used the screwdriver to turn the socket. It still didn't start.

Does that mean it's a starter or something other then the switch?

Not definitive. It could be the ignition switch or a wiring issue. You have to test for continuity like I said above to rule out the switch.

Then you get to start diagnosing the wiring. That gets really fun.

[exitspeed]

That's not an excuse. You don't need a multimeter. Just a continuity tester.

You can rig one up with a battery and test light. You just need something to tells you that you have continuity.

Even if you bought one, most places sell them for $10-20 at most, or are you in the middle of nowhere?



Not definitive. It could be the ignition switch or a wiring issue. You have to test for continuity like I said above to rule out the switch.

Then you get to start diagnosing the wiring. That gets really fun.

Not in the middle of nowhere. Just have other priorities to take care of first. I know nothing of electrical, so I don't even know how to rig a battery and test light or what I'd use for that. My uncle and cousin a few min away both have multimeters. I can have them bring it over.

I'll probably work on it over the weekend.

[projectRDM]

g6civcx I don't have a multimeter handy right now. I'll borrow one over the weekend.

I did pull out the switch and used the screwdriver to turn the socket. It still didn't start.

Does that mean it's a starter or something other then the switch?

Bypass the starter relay. Should have already done it, but now's your chance. If it still won't start, buy a starter.

[exitspeed]

Bypass the starter relay. Should have already done it, but now's your chance. If it still won't start, buy a starter.

So is that what I would do with the S2k Push Button start button? I just eliminate the key all together?

[projectRDM]

Not exactly. The push button starts don't activate ignition so you still need a key, the button just mimics turning the key that last step. You can make a panel for switches to turn on the accessory and ignition if you don't want a key, otherwise you have to keep it.
The starter relay simply switches power to the solenoid when the clutch switch is depressed. They're prone to go bad though, hence bypassing it.

[g6civcx]

Not exactly. The push button starts don't activate ignition so you still need a key, the button just mimics turning the key that last step. You can make a panel for switches to turn on the accessory and ignition if you don't want a key, otherwise you have to keep it.

I can wire a one-touch starter button that automatically turns on the ignition and accessories, and turns off all power when a door is opened, but that's beyond the skills and needs of most people. This feature is more of a novelty item anyhow. I don't do this for my own car.

For most people, you will need to either retain the ignition switch or use a switch panel unless you know a little bit about relays and electronicsl in general.

The starter relay simply switches power to the solenoid when the clutch switch is depressed. They're prone to go bad though, hence bypassing it.

The factory calls this the clutch interlock switch. It's a blue relay mounted near the battery. Remove the relay and connect the two thick wires together. Remove the remaining 2 wires. You can use the clutch switch for something else or remove.

[exitspeed]

Okay, look. S13 ignition switches are really simple.

Disconnect the negative battery wire and unplug the ignition switch harness.

white - constant power
blue - ACC power
white/red - ON power
white/black - start signal for starter
white/blue(I don't remember exactly what the secondary colour is) - start signal for ECU

Check the FSM for specific colour for the ECU wire and pin location.

Using a multimeter, you want to test for continuity on the ignition harness on the side of the switch. You don't even have to remove the switch. Just remove the lower steering column cover and pull out the harness.

Key off, there should be no continuity on any pin.

Key turned to acc, continuity only between white and blue.

Key turned to ON, continuity between white, blue, and white/red.

Key turned to start, continuity between white, white/red, white/black, and white/blue.


If you can check all that, you know your switch is good and the problem is elsewhere.


Check back with me after you've checked all that, or if you have questions. It should only take you 5 minutes to check continuity between the pins.

My uncle is coming over Sat morning to give me a hand. He has a multimeter and is very experienced with electrical and wiring. So hopefully we can resolve the issue together. We'll go through the process above.

g6civcx if we go through all that and find the switch to be good, would the next logical problem be the starter?

[g6civcx]

if we go through all that and find the switch to be good, would the next logical problem be the starter?

I wouldn't jump to the starter just yet. Assuming your radio and all of electrical accessories work like normal, check the clutch interlock switch first.

Go to the battery area. There is a blue relay tucked under the right front fender next to the washer fluid filler.

Put your ear next to the relay and have someone turn the key to start while pushing in the clutch. You should hear the relay click. If the relay click, then assume it's good and move on.

If you don't hear clicking, remove the relay and test with a known good if possible.

Ideally you should remove the blue relay and connect the two thick wires together and make a permanent seal. The car will now start without pushing the clutch.

This may just solve your problem, and it's a good idea to do this anyway due to failure of the blue relay.


If bypassing the relay still doesn't fix it, then we move next to the starter solenoid.

Like Russ said, you can ghetto rig a light bulb to act as a test light. Connect one wire from the starter solenoid wire on the starter to the bulb then to ground. When you turn the key to start, if the bulb doesn't come on, then you know you have a broken wire somewhere.

If the bulb comes on, you know you have a dead starter solenoid and/or starter.

It's probably easier just to pull the starter and get it tested at a shop than trying to test it on the car.

[alkemyst]

Remember, when turning on your car, and turning the ignition switch, take your time and do it periodically, click by click. Some people just jump in the car and turn the key at full speed and full turn in one motion which is probably the cause to 95% of the igntion switch failures.

While I agree...most don't hang on to cars long enough for it to be an issue. Us that have decided the car no longer made is more for us suffer.

I just crank mine...replacing it is not such a big deal for me if I have too.

[g6civcx]

While I agree...most don't hang on to cars long enough for it to be an issue. Us that have decided the car no longer made is more for us suffer.

I just crank mine...replacing it is not such a big deal for me if I have too.

I tend to agree as well, especially people who hang 10 pounds of keys on their keychain.

[exitspeed]

I wouldn't jump to the starter just yet. Assuming your radio and all of electrical accessories work like normal, check the clutch interlock switch first.

Go to the battery area. There is a blue relay tucked under the right front fender next to the washer fluid filler.

Put your ear next to the relay and have someone turn the key to start while pushing in the clutch. You should hear the relay click. If the relay click, then assume it's good and move on.

If you don't hear clicking, remove the relay and test with a known good if possible.

Ideally you should remove the blue relay and connect the two thick wires together and make a permanent seal. The car will now start without pushing the clutch.

This may just solve your problem, and it's a good idea to do this anyway due to failure of the blue relay.


If bypassing the relay still doesn't fix it, then we move next to the starter solenoid.

Like Russ said, you can ghetto rig a light bulb to act as a test light. Connect one wire from the starter solenoid wire on the starter to the bulb then to ground. When you turn the key to start, if the bulb doesn't come on, then you know you have a broken wire somewhere.

If the bulb comes on, you know you have a dead starter solenoid and/or starter.

It's probably easier just to pull the starter and get it tested at a shop than trying to test it on the car.

Great. I'll probably eliminate the blue relay on Sat then (do i just need wire nuts???). I may get the push button start wired up too.

I'm not sure if the radio is working or not. When I did the carpet I have to cut some wires and I haven't been able to put it back. So I might try and take care of that also.

Thanks again for all your help.

[projectRDM]

Do NOT use wire nuts ever on a car. Period.

Cut the two large gauge wires off the relya plug and either crimp them together or solder/heatshrink.

[exitspeed]

Hhahaha, ok, ok. Thanks for the heads-up. lol. Now that I thought about it for a sec I see why that would be bad.

[g6civcx]

I always solder and heatshrink.

[exitspeed]

So we took off the switch and the pig tail of the switch goes to a box which looks like an auto start or alarm. So we are going to try and bypass that and see what we get.

We check continuity and we got it on all positions except Start.

[exitspeed]

We got the switch wired back up normal.

Put it back in, turned the switch to Start and we heard the solenoid engage and then lost ALL power. Now when I have NO power on any position.

I checked the fused under the dash and under the engine.

So again. NO power.

Also the blue clutch relay is working properly.

[g6civcx]

Oh my, it sounds like you have handful of problems.

The unknown variable is the mystery box. Did you remove all wires going to the box? Did you reconnect the wires correctly?

I would go back and check again to make sure.

Also, how can the blue relay work if you have NO power?

I would check the white wire on the body harness side for 12V(+). Unplug the ignition switch harness, connect a test light to the white wire on the body side (not the switch side) and ground. The light should come on. If not then you're not getting power to the ignition switch.

I would check that first. if no power on the white wire, follow the white wire as much as you can and make sure it's not disconnected anywhere. Trace it back to the underhood fusebox and check all of your fusible links. You may have blown something.

[g6civcx]

This is what it should look like for an S13:
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/9674/stocktq3.jpg

When you turn the key to the indicated position (OFF/ACC/ON/ST), the pins with an O in the box are connected together.

Off - nothing

Acc - pin 1/white and pin 2/blue are connected

On - pin 1/white, pin 2/blue, and pin 3/black/red are connected

Start - pin 1/white, pin 3/black/red, pin 4/black/white, pin 5/black/yellow are connected


Follow the white wire to the fusible link in the underhood relay box and all the way to battery and see what you don't have power on pin 1.

[exitspeed]

We checked the blue relay by taking two wires and putting them on the battery terminals and seeing if the switch clicked, and it did. Then we checked the other side of the relay and it was good also.

The reason I think it's the starter now is this.

When I turn the ign. switch all the way to ON the power stays on in the car. Then when I turned it all the way to Start that's when one of the breakers in the fuse box under the hood switched and then no power. I pulled some of the fuses and breakers in that fuse box and then there would be power and I tried it again, same sequence same result.

A couple friends told me to give the starter a couple good whacks cause it could be stuck or some BS. Well I gave a couple good ones, pulled and put back the fuses/breakers and then turned to Start. The engine STARTED cranking for a turn or two and then went dead and same deal. No power.

So the whackin on the started had SOME effect on it, but there is just not enough juice to get ig going I guess.

Make any sense?

[g6civcx]

We checked the blue relay by taking two wires and putting them on the battery terminals and seeing if the switch clicked, and it did. Then we checked the other side of the relay and it was good also.

Take the two thin wires. When you connect one thin wire to power and the other thin wire to ground, there should be continuity between the two thick wires.

I pulled some of the fuses and breakers in that fuse box and then there would be power and I tried it again, same sequence same result[/quote]

What fuses and breakers are you talking about?

So the whackin on the started had SOME effect on it, but there is just not enough juice to get ig going I guess

Whack it while turning the key to start.


I'm racking my brain trying to figure out what it could be. Are you sure the starter is wired correctly and the battery cables are clean and tight?

[exitspeed]

Take the two thin wires. When you connect one thin wire to power and the other thin wire to ground, there should be continuity between the two thick wires.

I pulled some of the fuses and breakers in that fuse box and then there would be power and I tried it again, same sequence same result

What fuses and breakers are you talking about?

Sorry I didn't know what they are called. The ones in the fuse box under the hood. In the box next to the battery. They are the larger ones that you can pull out. I didn't know what else they would be called.

Whack it while turning the key to start.


I'm racking my brain trying to figure out what it could be. Are you sure the starter is wired correctly and the battery cables are clean and tight?[/QUOTE]

The battery cables are clean and tight. Like I said I the battery is brand new too. There's no corrosion on the wires to the battery. I'm going to assume the starter is wired correctly. I the car ran just fine up until me storing it all winter. I bought the car last sring and drove it from Atlanta all the way home to Milwaukee. Then drove it all summer and fall, then stored it in my garage since a couple weeks before Thanksgiving.

[g6civcx]

Sorry I didn't know what they are called. The ones in the fuse box under the hood. In the box next to the battery. They are the larger ones that you can pull out. I didn't know what else they would be called.

They're called fusible links. They bigger fuses with a clip that you pull to release.

Breakers are still correct, but it makes me think of traditional breaker switches.


The battery cables are clean and tight. Like I said I the battery is brand new too. There's no corrosion on the wires to the battery. I'm going to assume the starter is wired correctly. I the car ran just fine up until me storing it all winter. I bought the car last sring and drove it from Atlanta all the way home to Milwaukee. Then drove it all summer and fall, then stored it in my garage since a couple weeks before Thanksgiving.

I think you should check the wiring to see if there is any visible damage. Maybe something chewed through the wiring.

Otherwise, I say pull the starter and get it tested at Autozone for free.

[exitspeed]

^
That's my next move.

[g6civcx]

Was there ever a resolution to this problem?

[exitspeed]

I jacked the coupe up and really banged the starter. Got in, and it started right up!

It's runnin like shit still though. The engine was running really rough and shacking a lot. Like my open hood was wiggling all around a lot because of it. It smoothed out after a while but it's still running pretty rough.

It idles fine, but when I rev it there is a sputter and hesitation between idle and 2000rpm.

So what I'm planning on doing is:

-Go over all the vacuum lines and make sure thats good.

-Maybe replace the o2 sensors. I don't know if there's a way to see if they are bad or just replace them.

-Seafoam. I know it can have ill effects, but I'm willing to take the risk for the reward of a well running engine.

Check the grounds. I have no idea where the grounds all are, but I'll find out I guess.