View Full Version : What are the risks of a turbo 240sx?
IchigoFace
10-31-2002, 03:45 PM
im currently turboing my 240sx. I dunno wat to expect after the install. my turbo setup is totally fabricated. $4000+ for the real turbo kits are way out of my budget. i kno its crap but here is my setup.
14b turbo from the 1st gen mitsubishi eclipse
370cc injectors
starion front mount i/c with modified endtanks to fit 2" pipes
apex afc
stock wastegate from 14b turbo
havent decided on the bypass valve
has anyone encountered problems from turboing the 240sx? what are the risks? thanks
Kreator
10-31-2002, 05:34 PM
I don't have a turbo, but plan on doing that in the spring so know some stuff
First off, the eclipse turbo would be pretty small. Think about it. It's an OEM turbo on a 2.0 engine. It's quite small even for that and it'd be useless for a 2.4
If you replace the turbo however, the setup is decent
As for the problems, if the car is tuned right there shouldn't be any up to like 12-13psi, however the highest the ka was at on stock internals w/o blowing was 18psi (??).
As for the bypass, id say go with hks ssqv
Finally here is my setup: http://www.wam.umd.edu/~iminin/turbo.txt
Some of those things can be omitted, drop the exhaust price and might replace some of them with used or cheaper parts.
The setup is for about ~220rwhp@4psi
AceInHole
10-31-2002, 05:50 PM
I was thinking of doing the Apex AFC at one point, but why bother when you can just get a JWT ECU for a bit more and have TONS more reliability and peice of mind??
Some very important small stuff should also be considered:
Fuel pump
Oil/ Coolant lines
Heat protection
Clutch
Gauges
Then you get into the annoying problems such as where the stock wastegate is located and if it will clear the head with the manifold you use.... (currently just ONE of my problems). You also have to deal with downtime at some point, although it isn't as big of a deal as some people had lead me to believe in the beginning (as long as you're willing to take your time with it).
Jeff240sx
10-31-2002, 08:16 PM
Ace, a JWT ecu isn't a "bit more", it is about $290 dollars more. For $20 more dollars, you can buy 2 Apex'i AFC's. They run about $310 shipped from ebay, and I heard BoostedS14 can get them for around there too.
Reliability? I dunno... seems like it is a fairly easy thing to reprogram (have a key) if your battery becomes disconnected and everything resets.
If it is a stock 1g turbo, I'd think that it is watercooled, since most early stock turbos come like that. You'll have to route coolant lines to your turbo somehow. The fuel pump is good to about 6psi I have heard... and a little more if you raise the fuel pressure somehow.
And then downtime... It was like 5 days for me. Just be sure you have a parts car that you can run to the store with. I didn't... and it pissed me off.
-Jeff
AceInHole
11-01-2002, 02:31 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jeff240sx @ Oct. 30 2002,10:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ace, a JWT ecu isn't a "bit more", it is about $290 dollars more. For $20 more dollars, you can buy 2 Apex'i AFC's. They run about $310 shipped from ebay, and I heard BoostedS14 can get them for around there too.
Reliability? I dunno... seems like it is a fairly easy thing to reprogram (have a key) if your battery becomes disconnected and everything resets.
If it is a stock 1g turbo, I'd think that it is watercooled, since most early stock turbos come like that. You'll have to route coolant lines to your turbo somehow. The fuel pump is good to about 6psi I have heard... and a little more if you raise the fuel pressure somehow.
And then downtime... It was like 5 days for me. Just be sure you have a parts car that you can run to the store with. I didn't... and it pissed me off.
-Jeff</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I'm wondering why I thought the JWT ECU was $500?? I'll ask my friend Jeff how much he paid for his.... I'm thinking either that was the price a long time ago or i was thinking of the core charge or something...??
In any case, you get the AFC for around $300, spend another $100 on dyno tuning, and then still have tip-in retard and a very dangerous fuel cut (hit that under boost and risk killing your engine when it's prone to detonation). The AFC is nice for fine tuning, and I'm sure you could live with the tip-in retard and avoid the fuel cut... but for a budget buildup it's one of the things that you might want to consider not fudging around with.
As for the stock fuel pump... it supposedly supports enough flow for up to around 200hp on a KA. 6psi sounds about right, but that number might change depending on what turbo you're running. As for raising fuel pressure, that works for injectors, but raising pressure works against the pump, so the pump ends up flowing less fuel.
sykikchimp
11-01-2002, 10:39 AM
I agree with ACE.. The JWT is only a little more, and it's a plug and play deal.. much simpler, and much safer. you may want to get the AFC later if you want to lean out the notoriously rich JWT fuel curve. Since your already planning on getting the 370 injectors, I would get the Cobra MAF programed in as well.. pick one up cheap at a Junk yard, and your set. add a walbro fuel pump, and your fuel system is done. no more fuggin with it, and no worries.
Also - I know nothing about eclipse turbos.. What are the exhaust and compressor housing sizes? I agree that it will probably be a bit too small. What are you gonna do about the turbo manifold? custom I would assume if your getting an eclipse turbo.
How much boost are you wanting to run?
wpayne
11-01-2002, 11:52 AM
have you considered what kind of exhaust manifold and downpipe you are going to get?
Foxcolt
11-01-2002, 12:11 PM
14b is way way to small for your motor. That turbo is no bigger than my fist. If you want to stick to mitsu turbos see if you can pickup a 16g. That turbo is better sized for your car.
However I have seen one DSM run in the 12's with the 14b. I still can't believe it though.
FYI: I'm running 14psi on my stock fuel pump. No problems. I know a couple other people running much more than 6psi on their stockies. Np's
JWT vs AFC:
AFC is crap, only lets you tune at certain rpm points. Only does +/- 50% fuel curve. Crap. Although their are a lot of people who love it and I have seen a lot of fast cars with em.
JWT is crap, personaly I would buy an burned rom from someone who doesn't even have my car on a dyno. People lose a lot of versatility and some power with burned roms. All motors are different and I wouldn't want a generic fuel/igniton table to run my car. However for the ease of use blah blah it is a good option. Not for 600 bux though. Their are people that do the same thing for cheaper. (enjuku I think, might only be sr's though)
Just my opinion.
Jed <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/devil.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':devil:'>
gabossie
11-01-2002, 12:25 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Foxcolt @ Nov. 01 2002,1:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">JWT vs AFC:
AFC is crap, only lets you tune at certain rpm points. Only does +/- 50% fuel curve. Crap. Although their are a lot of people who love it and I have seen a lot of fast cars with em.
JWT is crap, personaly I would buy an burned rom from someone who doesn't even have my car on a dyno. People lose a lot of versatility and some power with burned roms. All motors are different and I wouldn't want a generic fuel/igniton table to run my car. However for the ease of use blah blah it is a good option. Not for 600 bux though. Their are people that do the same thing for cheaper. (enjuku I think, might only be sr's though)
Just my opinion.
Jed <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/devil.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':devil:'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
So what are you using?
Foxcolt
11-01-2002, 12:51 PM
I plan on using a power FC.
Like I stated those are just my opinions. I've seen/heard of people with very succesfull use of both of those products. I personally just wouldn't use them.
Jed <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/devil.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':devil:'>
IchigoFace
11-01-2002, 01:08 PM
Sorry i forgot to mention that i already have all the stuff. I/C pipes, and exhaust manifold, are all custom molded and welded by me. right now im working on the downpipe. if i had a digital camera id most defiantely show you guys. i have no idea of the 14b exhaust and compressor sizes. the afc, 14b, fuel pump, oil line, are all hand me downs from my bro which has many years of experience with dsm mitsubishi's. so he tells me what to do. so i basically have 90% of the things i need.
boosteds14
11-01-2002, 01:24 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (sykikchimp @ Nov. 01 2002,1:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I agree with ACE.. The JWT is only a little more, and it's a plug and play deal.. much simpler, and much safer. you may want to get the AFC later if you want to lean out the notoriously rich JWT fuel curve. Since your already planning on getting the 370 injectors, I would get the Cobra MAF programed in as well.. pick one up cheap at a Junk yard, and your set. add a walbro fuel pump, and your fuel system is done. no more fuggin with it, and no worries.
Also - I know nothing about eclipse turbos.. What are the exhaust and compressor housing sizes? I agree that it will probably be a bit too small. What are you gonna do about the turbo manifold? custom I would assume if your getting an eclipse turbo.
How much boost are you wanting to run?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
i have to say. to tune the engine correctly without using a standalone, i am using the JWT ecu and i also am using the HKS SAFC now for fine tuning.
240racer
11-01-2002, 01:30 PM
the 14b should work fine. stock boost with the stock wastegate is about 11psi. So if you are going to run that, you should get a walbro fuel pump and maybe 440cc/min injectors. However, then you run into problems with the afc not being able to compensate for all that fuel. So maybe you would have to run a afpr with the 370s to get it to work. To me that sounds like a lot of variables. I would either get the JWT or some standalone if you are going to run 11psi. Then get some 440 or 550 injectors and a cobra MAFs, or if you run stand alone, then you don't need a MAFs, just a MAPs. I like the AEM stand alone, I have two friends that are running it, one has a 2g ecu on a 1g DSM and the other is running a honda ecu on a MKIII supra, so I don't think it's a big deal that they don't have one for the 240, when I decide I need it, I'll get that one.
like the other poeple said, the turbo is pretty small, so you will start to get HP limited eventually. If you can get a larger turbo, then look into it, but you can definatly build off the 14b, there are lots of mitsu upgrades available, as you probably know.
boosteds14
11-01-2002, 01:32 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Foxcolt @ Nov. 01 2002,3:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">14b is way way to small for your motor. That turbo is no bigger than my fist. If you want to stick to mitsu turbos see if you can pickup a 16g. That turbo is better sized for your car.
However I have seen one DSM run in the 12's with the 14b. I still can't believe it though.
FYI: I'm running 14psi on my stock fuel pump. No problems. I know a couple other people running much more than 6psi on their stockies. Np's
JWT vs AFC:
AFC is crap, only lets you tune at certain rpm points. Only does +/- 50% fuel curve. Crap. Although their are a lot of people who love it and I have seen a lot of fast cars with em.
JWT is crap, personaly I would buy an burned rom from someone who doesn't even have my car on a dyno. People lose a lot of versatility and some power with burned roms. All motors are different and I wouldn't want a generic fuel/igniton table to run my car. However for the ease of use blah blah it is a good option. Not for 600 bux though. Their are people that do the same thing for cheaper. (enjuku I think, might only be sr's though)
Just my opinion.
Jed <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/devil.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':devil:'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
if the jwt was crap, i dont think they would charge that much for it.
plus, 75% of KA-T's use the jwt ecu. it lays the baseline down for tuning and then you use either a Apexi or HKS AFC to modify the MAF signal for final tuning
Foxcolt
11-01-2002, 01:34 PM
His fuel pump will handle the boost.
His afc will have no problems running 370cc injectors and a bigger mafs. AFC can run 550's before it starts to run out of tuning space.
Jed <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/devil.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':devil:'>
Foxcolt
11-01-2002, 01:40 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (boosteds14 @ Nov. 01 2002,2:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">if the jwt was crap, i dont think they would charge that much for it.
plus, 75% of KA-T's use the jwt ecu. it lays the baseline down for tuning and then you use either a Apexi or HKS AFC to modify the MAF signal for final tuning</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
True. However most people don't have a piggyback to tune their JWT ECU. Most people think that it's all they need (which it is in some cases)
Plus for the cost of a JWT ECU plus a good piggyback system your venturing into entry level standalone land. SDS etc..
JWT has a good program. If they didn't they wouldn't be so popular. But like I said before I personaly would not want a generic 550cc fuel map controlling my car. I think you can agree with me on that one.
Jed <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/devil.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':devil:'>
240racer
11-01-2002, 04:21 PM
if you are using the AFC to tune the JWT ecu, then you are back to the 8 points of adjustment, right? Is there some other benifit I am missing??
DarkRaptor42
11-03-2002, 01:12 PM
im with 240racer, that makes no sense.Why would you buy a JWT and then get a SAFC on top of that? Its silly. The AFC tunes the fuel signals so why bother with the JWT at all? Just not worth it in my opinion. And if your looking for other ECUs why not just the JET? No one ever talks about that one but its pretty darn cheap and from what Ive seen (mostly domestics however) they work pretty darn good. I plan on going KAT in december so ive been researching and SAFC seems the way to go.
l8r
Raptor
DMCS14
11-03-2002, 06:48 PM
ok well i know nothing about turbos and dont no what all the abbreviations you all keep using mean, but i did get that you dguys dont thinkt the mitsubishi turbo is big enuff to make a difference, my neighbors have a merkur x4rati and a ford turbo thunderbird(they both have the 2.3 L ford engine and come with a stock turbo charger, he told me i could buy the turbo charger from this one place for 100 dollars do you think that would power our 2.4l engines better?
nissmo240sx
11-04-2002, 05:19 PM
TRIAL AND TESTED already. 14B turbo --Way Too small. man oh man, i've learned enough about my KA-det and what turbo it likes for what PSI range. EVEN for only 5-7 psi, A specific t3/to4B is almost necessary. T3/to4E are really only meant for higher boost applications, where u get to around 12psi and beyond. THere is so much to talk about int this area, so i shall be quiet because the different compressor/wheel matches. . . etc fine tune how you want the car to boost. I had a 60trim t3/to4E, .63 ar exhaust blah blah------> BOOST LAG. 14B too small. you should just get a regular t3 garret from a stickshift thunderbird in the junkyard so it comes with the .63 ar housing. that is the minimum you should do if your trying to conserve money. HEy, i built my own kit too and it didnt cost too much, all together max 1500. and my turbo was the biggest and most important investment. Im just trying to help you out with some info so you dont have to do what me and lot of people have done . THis is what you need if your going to boost like 5- 10 psi------->
Garret t3/to4B 60 trim Compressor B housing with 45 or 54 wheel. .63 ar exhaust housing stage 3
Sorry if some of ya think different. FIrst turbo the motor and then see what its like. Good luck man. Tire spin is going to be fun when yur done.
mbmbmb23
11-04-2002, 07:26 PM
Ok....so if I got the JWT retune, and a piggyback engine management ecu to finetune......whats the process of fine tuning it? Do I just put it on a dyno and guess?....keep messing around til I get lucky?
So...what are the different variables that I can tune with the piggyback unit?....and would any given tuner shop (whose dyno I'd be using) know enough about tuning in general that they would be helpful tuning an engine (KA+T), something they've probably never tuned before?
-m
Jeff240sx
11-04-2002, 07:51 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (nissmo240sx @ Nov. 04 2002,7:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">TRIAL AND TESTED already. 14B turbo --Way Too small. man oh man, i've learned enough about my KA-det and what turbo it likes for what PSI range. EVEN for only 5-7 psi, A specific t3/to4B is almost necessary. T3/to4E are really only meant for higher boost applications, where u get to around 12psi and beyond. THere is so much to talk about int this area, so i shall be quiet because the different compressor/wheel matches. . . etc fine tune how you want the car to boost. I had a 60trim t3/to4E, .63 ar exhaust blah blah------> BOOST LAG. 14B too small. you should just get a regular t3 garret from a stickshift thunderbird in the junkyard so it comes with the .63 ar housing. that is the minimum you should do if your trying to conserve money. HEy, i built my own kit too and it didnt cost too much, all together max 1500. and my turbo was the biggest and most important investment. Im just trying to help you out with some info so you dont have to do what me and lot of people have done . THis is what you need if your going to boost like 5- 10 psi------->
Garret t3/to4B 60 trim Compressor B housing with 45 or 54 wheel. .63 ar exhaust housing stage 3
Sorry if some of ya think different. FIrst turbo the motor and then see what its like. Good luck man. Tire spin is going to be fun when yur done.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
What is with the huge ass spaces?
Anyway, you have posted about the exact same turbo twice now. A t3/4 is huge for 5-7psi, a waste of lag and money. A t28 is beautiful for that boost range, and a t3 can go to much higher (off a z31 it is rated to 14psi for the 3.0L motor). I just don't think you know exactly what you are talking about. You have a good idea, but your turbos that are "perfect" for 7 psi are more perfect for 12psi. They will lag too much for 7. If 7psi is your goal (or his), then he should build exactly for 7psi, to have the most power with the least lag. I would love to have 7 psi at only 2400 rpm with a t28, and perfectly matched housings and wheels. But, I have a t3/4e because one day, my car will pump 400hp. That's not here nor there though.
-Jeff
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