Grounc Control Coilovers

[wpayne]

Alright, my next step is to get some coilovers cause I want to lower the car, but I'm also gonna change rims later so I want to be able to adjust it. How are the Ground Control Coilovers? I'm also planning on getting shocks later on. Is this a good idea or should I just get it all together or what? I need some advice here. Thanks <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

[tnord]

search......... this has been discussed multiple times in recent memory

[luke91]

I have Ground Control sleeve-overs and KYB AGX shocks. &nbsp;I like them so much, my advice to you would be:
Buy Tein HA full coilovers. &nbsp;
You'll spend about $200 more, but they are far superior to my crappy Ground Controls.

[tnord]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (luke91 @ Sep. 19 2002,12:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have Ground Control sleeve-overs and KYB AGX shocks. I like them so much, my advice to you would be:
Buy Tein HA full coilovers.
You'll spend about $200 more, but they are far superior to my crappy Ground Controls.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
you sir.........are an idiot. if you don't like the ground control's that's your own fault. you can specify whatever the hell spring rate you want. then you get to choose your own stinkin shock. i mean............. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/eh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':eh:'>

[Apparition]

Hurray for insults! Immaturity.

Relax man. I've seen ground controls on a honda, and did an install on a friend's jetta. I think with ground controls they have the biggest drop (I think its 4"). You can really slam it. As for if they are crappy or not, its all on personal taste. They're great for show. Not sure if they are track worthy tho.

[wpayne]

Cool, so for street use there not bad? I don't plan on doing any track time but I will do some "drifting" and want a tighter flater ride when i take hard turns and throw the back around.

[Yoshi]

okay lets get something straight.
the only way GC's would be just for "slammin", is cuz they're threaded coilovers... so obviously you can lower as much as your want... hell on the s13s you can lower til the chassis is on the ground. &nbsp;But this isn't the point.

Ground Control makes race shocks! that's their main intended application... and like tnord said, if you think they suck, it's your own fault. &nbsp;The springs are your choice as far as compression rates... their Eibach springs too, not some crappy ripoff. &nbsp;you also pick which shock they go on, so again, if the dampening "sucks" it's your own fault. Don't blame the company because you didn't bother to learn what compression rates you should be using for a given application, not to mention bound/rebound rates, corner weighting, chassis adjustment, geometry and wieght throw.

C'mon now, be fair. &nbsp;Don't be one of those guys always blaming their equipment (there's a joke there, but I'll leave it be <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'> hehee )

[tnord]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Yoshi @ Sep. 19 2002,1:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">okay lets get something straight.
the only way GC's would be just for "slammin", is cuz they're threaded coilovers... so obviously you can lower as much as your want... hell on the s13s you can lower til the chassis is on the ground. But this isn't the point.

Ground Control makes race shocks! that's their main intended application... and like tnord said, if you think they suck, it's your own fault. The springs are your choice as far as compression rates... their Eibach springs too, not some crappy ripoff. you also pick which shock they go on, so again, if the dampening "sucks" it's your own fault. Don't blame the company because you didn't bother to learn what compression rates you should be using for a given application, not to mention bound/rebound rates, corner weighting, chassis adjustment, geometry and wieght throw.

C'mon now, be fair. Don't be one of those guys always blaming their equipment (there's a joke there, but I'll leave it be <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'> hehee )</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
thank god there's more than 1 non-nincompoop on this thread
how many times do you think you and me have gone over this EXACT SAME DISCUSSION yoshi?

[Yoshi]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (tnord @ Sep. 19 2002,1:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">thank god there's more than 1 non-nincompoop on this thread
how many times do you think you and me have gone over this EXACT SAME DISCUSSION yoshi?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Oh jeeeeze.... WAY too many. This topic has been done WAAAAY TOO MANY TIMES.

I wish people would learn how to use things right before slamming them. Like people who don't know puters, "Computers are so F@cking stupid! I hate computers!" well gee, learn to use it and it works great... why is the natural reaction of people to instantly think something sucks if the don't understand it/or are mis-using it?

If you didn't know how to use chopsticks, and you stab yourself in the eye trying to use them, are you gonna blame the chopsticks? Sadly lots of people would <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('>

edit: guess I don't need my big ole' sig in every post <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

[Yoshi]

<!--QuoteBegin--wpayne+Sep. 19 2002,10<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (wpayne @ Sep. 19 2002,10<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>6)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Cool, so for street use there not bad? I don't plan on doing any track time but I will do some "drifting" and want a tighter flater ride when i take hard turns and throw the back around.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
okay, "drifting" requires you to have the stiffest suspension of all, I mistakenly made the assumption that if I got some autoX/street rate springs they'd be okay for occasional/beginner drifting. WRONG. If you really think you wanna drift, you'd better be ready to go all out, not to mention have a spare car. I speak with experience.

BTW I noticed u mentioned you took your car "drifting" to test your fSTB... obviously you have stock suspension if you're asking about GC's, I'd advise you to STOP NOW. Try that stuff when you have the right gear, it's just dangerous otherwise... I'm sure you know what snap-oversteer is by now, or if not, you've at least experienced it. Suspension FIRST! then try your hand at sliding around... somewhere NON_residential too!

edit: guess I don't need my big ole' sig in every post <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

[wpayne]

Ok, for now I'm just gonna get the coil-overs with Eibach springs, no shocks yet. Do I need to spring compressor to install the the coilovers? My knowledge of this is sorta limited so any help would be cool. Thanks again <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

[wpayne]

Yoshi, hehe, thanks for the advice man. Yeah, I'm not too experienced so I was only doing some chickin-shit first gear and E-brake stuff <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'> . But yeah, it was in this giant big parking lot at like 2 in the morning so I'm not worried too much, but of course, safety ALWAYS comes first.

Now you were saying the stiffest, does that mean I can still go with ground control's and get really stiff shocks? I know it is best to go with like something more expensive but money is an issue.

BTW, I used to live in Okinawa, Japan and watched a lot of 180's and Silvia's drift and it's just so cool how a lot of the cars suspenions were really stiff that when they spin out the car stays totally flat.

[Danio]

You might want to get adjustable coilovers so that you can easily stiffen the rear and soften the front when you want to. Ground Control might not be the best choice for you since you might need to try out different springs with different compression rates, in addition to the stiffer shocks, to get what you want, and that may end up costing quite a bit. But I'm no expert on this so someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

[wpayne]

Thanks Danio, I'm no expert either but I'm pretty sure coilovers let you adjust the ride hight and it is the shocks the determine the stiffnes or how hard of a ride you want. I could be wrong though...

wait! I had to read your post over a few times, do you meam "loosen the front and tighten the rear", I just wasn't sure what you meant before. I say tomato, you say tomoto:)

[Yoshi]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (wpayne @ Sep. 19 2002,2:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yoshi, hehe, thanks for the advice man. Yeah, I'm not too experienced so I was only doing some chickin-shit first gear and E-brake stuff <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'> . But yeah, it was in this giant big parking lot at like 2 in the morning so I'm not worried too much, but of course, safety ALWAYS comes first.

Now you were saying the stiffest, does that mean I can still go with ground control's and get really stiff shocks? I know it is best to go with like something more expensive but money is an issue.

BTW, I used to live in Okinawa, Japan and watched a lot of 180's and Silvia's drift and it's just so cool how a lot of the cars suspenions were really stiff that when they spin out the car stays totally flat.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Glad to hear you have the right attitude about it <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

By still I meant shocks AND springs... if you have stiff springs and not so stif shocks, you'll be bouncing around like all the Honda ricers you see driving around, bumping their heads on the ceiling when they hit lil potholes. &nbsp;You don't want that. &nbsp;

Do you have a s13 or s14? &nbsp;I have a s13, and the drop of my car was about an inch up front and 1.5 or so in the back with the springs adjusted for max height, that's a significant drop in anyone's book (I had hoped to stay at stock height). &nbsp;I think you could use your stock shocks with the GC's but I don't think it'd take long for them to blow out, and you'd be bouncing around an awful lot. &nbsp;It could be done, but it wouldn't be good for either the shocks, nor your head <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

[wpayne]

So should I get shocks first and then invest in the coilovers and springs? Will that damage anything in anyway? I definately don't want to be bouncing around like a honda! Oh yeah, I have an S13 hatchback.

I'm going back to visit Okinawa in the winter time and I left 2 R32 Skyline rims there and plan on bringing those back here and doing a 5 lug conversion on the back, well, just get an adapter.

I'm also worried about lowerin the car and I don't want to lower too much cause the roads here are really crappy, lots of dips coming back onto roads from like the gas stations or 7-11. I want to get a front lip and exhaust but I know for sure they'll get hurt <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/nervous.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':nervous:'>

[Danio]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (wpayne @ Sep. 19 2002,2:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">wait! I had to read your post over a few times, do you meam "loosen the front and tighten the rear", I just wasn't sure what you meant before. I say tomato, you say tomoto:)</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Not sure what you mean by loosen the front and tighten the rear. :\ But you'll want a stiff rear to break it loose more easily.

[Yoshi]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (wpayne @ Sep. 19 2002,2:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So should I get shocks first and then invest in the coilovers and springs? Will that damage anything in anyway? I definately don't want to be bouncing around like a honda! Oh yeah, I have an S13 hatchback.

I'm going back to visit Okinawa in the winter time and I left 2 R32 Skyline rims there and plan on bringing those back here and doing a 5 lug conversion on the back, well, just get an adapter.

I'm also worried about lowerin the car and I don't want to lower too much cause the roads here are really crappy, lots of dips coming back onto roads from like the gas stations or 7-11. I want to get a front lip and exhaust but I know for sure they'll get hurt <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/nervous.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':nervous:'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
If you're going to do one first and the other later (shocks and springs), i'd have to go with shocks first. Especially if you're thinking AGX or some other adjustable... I can't say for Koni or GAB etc, but AGX on the lightest setting is just barely stiffer than stock, you could run the stock springs on there, no prob. You'd be fine. Then you could figure out what springs/coils rate you wanted later. Just be sure to stay FAR away from OBX, APC, and other crap brands that are making all kinds of shitty sleeve coil overs.

Cool that u got a hatch like me <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

As far as lowering, if you go GC, your lowering probably be akin to my car, I always have the collars all the way up (max clearance), unless i'm drifting or going to the track or something, no way around that I don't think... actually I take that back... I'm sure you could explain to GC your situation and they could get you some longer sleeves, that'd fix you right up! maybe I should consider that too...

edit: or maybe you could buy Luke's off him, since he hates them so much.

[wpayne]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">edit: or maybe you could buy Luke's off him, since he hates them so much</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Luke, you wanna sell them:)??

Once again, thanks Yoshi. Now with the AGX on the heaviest settings, will they be hard enough for me to go drifting? Or Should I go with something else? It sounds like a really good flexible setup.

Yeah, I've seen the OBX ones on ebay for about $150, that sounds scary. Anyways, hope to here from you soon <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

[Yoshi]

hmm... long answer, no... short answer, yes - with a "but".

I personally don't feel they're stiff enough for serious drifting. &nbsp;A drift car is something that you wouldn't want to use on the street in any sort of normal fashion. &nbsp;very low, very uncomforable and very unforgiving (as far as regular street driving). &nbsp;HOWEVER, I've yet to meet someone that I would consider a REAL drifter. &nbsp;I know of very few guys who have a car dedicated to drifting and don't really wig out when they smash into a rail or spin out into a barrier.

Most people are just tweaking their daily drivers and hoping to experience a little of what they see in option videos. &nbsp;I feel the GCs and AGX are the happy medium. &nbsp;You can do some drifting (no high speed), if you get teh right springs, feint drifts are no thing... no ebrake needed. &nbsp;it's a good mix. &nbsp;Hope that answers some of your questions and concerns <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

[wpayne]

Yeah, I'm not planning on going ALL OUT cause I still need to drive it around to get to places. The setup you mentioned sounds like what I need to go with.

Thank you for you help:) I know who to go to with questions now:)

[Yosho]

Just to clarify something for you wpayne... your car already has coil-overs. &nbsp;Any spring that surrounds the shock/strut is a coil-over. &nbsp;A lot of people misunderstand this term and use it when the really mean adjustable hight coil-overs.

As Yoshi pointed out indirectly, GC's are adjustable hight coil-overs.

[luke91]

OK, please read while I clarify my statements. &nbsp;I know it's long:

1. Let's get this out of the way: &nbsp;I call them (coil-over "kits") "sleeve-overs" because they are not true coil-overs. &nbsp;They are assembled using a stock-spec shock. &nbsp;The coil spring sits on a collar that is adjustable via a SLEEVE that is placed OVER the shock. &nbsp;Sleeve-over is not a technical term - I just think it's a practical way to distinguish between the two types of "coil-overs". &nbsp;If you don't like it, I don't care.

2. I had road race rated Ground Control "sleeve-overs" (I'll tell you the rates, if you really want to know) and Tokico Illumina adjustable shocks on my last car, a '95 Honda Civic Coupe. &nbsp;It handled perfectly, and road even better. &nbsp;This is due not only to the spring/shock set-up, but to the fact that the car had an independant double wishbone suspension at all four corners. &nbsp;

Now, here's where we need to set the magazine mechanics aside (tnord), and talk based on experience. &nbsp;

In a double wishbone suspension set-up (like in a '95 Civic), the stock coil springs are long and skinny by design.
In a MacPherson type suspension (like the front of a '91 240sx), The stock coil springs are shorter and fatter by design. &nbsp; &nbsp;

The job of the coil spring in either of these two different suspensions is the same. &nbsp;They need to counter-act the downward force produced by the car's mass (weight), with an equal upward force - the spring rate. &nbsp;

Now, here's a little scenario to illustrate what I'm proving:
You have two springs that need to support the same weight. &nbsp;One is a spring from a Double Wishbone suspension, and the other is from a MacPherson suspension. &nbsp;Now, we already know that since they both need to support the same amount of weight, they will both have the same "upward force" at a certain time as they compress. &nbsp;Let's also say that the coils are the same type of metal, and the same thickness, just to keep it all the same. &nbsp;

Now, the Double Wishbone spring is longer and skinnier, and the MacPherson spring is shorter and fatter, and they both have the same spring rate. &nbsp;As they compress, the MacPherson spring will reach the desired "upward force" sooner, because of it's short stature, and the fact that more energy is directed outward, rather than downward. &nbsp;The Double Wishbone spring will reach the same "upward force" sooner because, since it's skinnier and taller, more energy will be directed downward. &nbsp;In very simple math this means in each case:
height times diameter equals desired upward force. &nbsp;There's more to it than that, but you get the idea, right? &nbsp;The whole goal of the MacPherson style suspension is to have less spring travel, and compression. &nbsp;

In the case of "sleeve-over" coilovers on a MacPherson suspension, rather than create a larger adjustable spring pearch and collar to accommodate for the wider spring, most companies (like Ground Control) simply make the spring skinnier and stiffer (to compensate for the lack of energy being directed outward, and to conform to the inability to compress), so they will work on one universal size collar and adjuster, to helps save on production costs. &nbsp;This is a FACT. &nbsp;
&nbsp;
This would be alright, if the spring were also lengthened in proportion to what was removed from it's diameter. &nbsp;But that's not possible with "sleeve-over" coilovers, if they utilize the stock-spec MacPherson shock, which does not allow for the increased travel needed for a longer spring. &nbsp;This creates a "bouncy" ride, due to the stiff spring that doesn't compress as it should. &nbsp; &nbsp;

This is also why you can't "lower till the chassis is on the ground" with an S13, like Yoshi says. &nbsp;
You could set the car on it's bumpstops, and the front would still show wheel gap. &nbsp;I know this because I own a '91 240SX with sleeve-overs.

In order to lower the car properly, while utilizing skinnier springs and an adjustable suspension, you would have to do the following:
Lengthen the spring by a certain amount
EITHER Raise the point on the shock where it connects to the coltrol arm (hub assembly), OR modify the control arm/hub assembly, OR create a shorter shock body altogether. &nbsp;

If you've even ridden in a car that had a "sleeve-over" spring set-up with a MacPherson suspension, you'll know what I'm talking about. &nbsp;It's a bouncy ride. &nbsp;

I'm sorry if this is confusing, I'm sure someone else could explain it better, but you should understand it if you read through it a few times. &nbsp;I'm not a writer. &nbsp;I DO know this shit, though. &nbsp;If you decide to get coil-overs, do some research first, and understand how your suspension works. &nbsp;I don't recommend sleeve-over style coil-overs on any MacPherson suspension set-up. &nbsp;

To tnord: &nbsp;You are an ass. &nbsp;I don't care how long you have been on this board, you have no right to disrespect anyone like you did to me. &nbsp;I would never call you an "idiot" unless you personally insulted me first. &nbsp;Unless you own Ground Controll, or have some deep spiritual connection with the porducts they sell, I don't think I insulted you first. &nbsp;When you are ready to quit with the attitude, the magazine mechanics, and "bench car building", maybe we'll get along in a discussion. &nbsp;Until then, you're not even worth my time, so don't direct any statements, opinions, etc. to me. &nbsp;

--luke

[wpayne]

Wow, thanks for all the info I'm sure it'll go a long way in helping out others.

One question though, I don't understand the part about having to use skinnier stiffer springs with the "sleeve-overs". In the ground control case, doesn't ground control use the same springs that people use to put on normal 240sx struts? Or does Eibach(for example) make skinnier stiffer springs especially for the ground-control "sleeve-overs" that are used on the 240sx? What I am saying is doesn't Ground Control &nbsp;use the Eibach springs made for the 240sx and not the "sleeve overs" for the 240sx?

One would think that the ground control "sleeve overs" are the same diameter and have the same size perch or collar as teh stock casing to be able to fit the normal 240sx springs and to get the stock shocks to fit in.

I could be totally wrong in that I've never seen a real ground control "sleeve over" and this is all assumptions made from what I've heard so far <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'> . I hope you know that I'm not testing your integrity but simply trying to clarify what I don't know for sure <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blush.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':blush:'> .

Well, let me know cause I am interested in this <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> .

[Yosho]

Before this thread get's outta hand and totally off topic, let me recommend a very good book to you wpayne.

It's called "High Performance Handling Handbook" by Don Alexander. &nbsp;It's part of the Motorbooks Workshop series.

It seems as if you're serious about investing your time and money into creating a car that can really handle. &nbsp;Instead of trying to learn the basics of suspension tuning by asking questions on the internet, you'd be far better off starting with this book and then asking informed questions. &nbsp;Unfortunatly, there is as much noise as there is good information in forums. &nbsp;If you don't know how to tell the difference it can be an expensive place to learn.

BTW, luke91... your compairison doesn't take into account wheel rates. &nbsp;Spring rates and design are simply a means to an ends (getting the optimal wheel rate for your type of driving) not an end into themselves. &nbsp;Compairing a 500lbs spring on a Civic and 500lbs spring on a 240 (for example) is pointless other than to show how important wheel rates are and how different they'll be on both cars even though they're using the same springs.

One last point, perhaps I misunderstood your post... about MacPherson struts you said:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> This would be alright, if the spring were also lengthened in proportion to what was removed from it's diameter. &nbsp;But that's not possible with "sleeve-over" coilovers, if they utilize the stock-spec MacPherson shock, which does not allow for the increased travel needed for a longer spring. &nbsp;This creates a "bouncy" ride, due to the stiff spring that doesn't compress as it should. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

It seems as if your saying that you'll achive a bouncy ride using a stock strut paired with a ERS spring because of the way the spring compresses. &nbsp;Remember, it is the job of the strut to resist and dampen the force of the spring compressing/decompressing. &nbsp;If the strut is insufficent (as would a stock strut be) then the ride will be bouncy. &nbsp;This is what creates the bouncy ride. &nbsp;Not a stiff spring that doesn't comrpess as it should. &nbsp;It is the mismatch of parts (or broken parts - blown struts).

[Yosho]

One further note, you can get ERS springs from Ground Control in different lenghts if you plan on lowering your car.

wpayne > After re-reading luke91's post... I think I see now what he was trying to get at. &nbsp;A MacPherson stut suspension has less travel than a double wishbone shock suspension. &nbsp;Because of this, you can't lower a MacPherson strut suspension down the way you can a civic's double wishbone shock suspension. &nbsp;There simply isn't enough travel using a stock length strut. &nbsp;It is possible however to use a shortened strut body to acomplish this. &nbsp; &nbsp;

You can only get so far by using a stiffer spring on a lowered car before you compromise the handleing alltogther. &nbsp;Using a much stiffer spring to create a higher wheel rate to resist compression of the strut really only limits your suspension's ability to react because you will also need to use a strut matched to control those stiff springs (or you'll have a bouncy ride). &nbsp;This is why it's ideal if you plan on lowering your car a lot to use either a shortened strut or to change the geometry of your suspension to afffect a change in the wheel rates. &nbsp; &nbsp;

What does all this gobbeldy gook mean? &nbsp;Don't lower your car beyond what your suspension is setup to handle or you'll wind up bottoming out the struts (aka bump steer/total compression/no suspension travel left/your screwed). &nbsp;It also means that just because a car is lowered doesn't mean it'll be able to handle well. &nbsp;Extreem lowering requires extreem suspension changes in order for the suspension to function.

Knowing the spring rates used on another car (like luke91's civic) are pointless for your purposes. &nbsp;The spring rates he used will give you a different wheel rate on your 240 than he had on his civic because of the different suspension design. &nbsp;You need to focus on only the spring rates people have used on 240's.

[luke91]

yosho

I understand what you are saying. &nbsp;I used spring rate only as an example to show how energy is dispersed in a MacPherson spring differently than in a Double Wishbone spring. &nbsp;

In a double wishbone spring, more energy is exerted downward, because the spring has room to compress, and since it is not all that wide, not too much can go outward. &nbsp;

In a MacPherson spring, since it is wider, more energy can be exerted outward, so the spring has to compress less, which is what it is designed to do. &nbsp;If MacPherson springs were designed to compress, they'd be long and skinny, like double Wishbone springs. &nbsp;

what I'm saying is it's pointless to design a replacement spring for a MacPherson suspension that is short AND skinny. &nbsp;
Instead of finding a way to utilize a long skinny spring, companies like Ground Control are using a short, skinny spring. &nbsp;

When they do this, instead of compensating for the energy that normally would be going outward with a way to make it go downward (longer spring), they compensate for the lost energy with stiffer springs. &nbsp;This is what makes the ride too bouncy. &nbsp;

There are three primary parts to a spring's characteristics:
length, diameter, and the relation between tension and compression (rate), with all other things such as type of meterial used, dimensions of the coil, etc. being equal. &nbsp;
When companies like Ground Control make coil-overs for MacPherson suspensions, they replace spring dimension with spring rate, giving it a whole different character. &nbsp;This new spring is shorter, skinnier, and doens't compress as much as it should. &nbsp;Travel (either outward or downward) is replaced with resistence, making the spring "bouncier". &nbsp;

Do you understand what I'm trying to say? &nbsp;I'm not trying to sound rude or anything, but I just really can't seem to put it into words what I mean, but in my head, it's perfect. &nbsp;

--luke

[wpayne]

Cool, yeah, I do want to learn and I'll check out that book Yosho:). &nbsp;As far as the suspension and all that goes, Yoshi already clarified it that lowering the car with stock struts is bad and I too also said a couple of replies earlier that I was gonna go with the AGX shocks first and then later maybe get the GC adjustable coilovers and springs.

Thanks a lot for your all knowledge:)

[wpayne]

Just to clear things up. I'm now gonna do the AGX shocks first and keep it on the softest position 'till I can get the GC's change my springs.

So, if I go with setup, when I do get the GC adjustables, my shocks will be able to accomodate springs that were made for cars with aftermarket shocks right? I wouldn't be compromising anything when I do this, I wouldn't have a "bouncy" ride. I just want to make my car car's suspension very hard and tight.

Hehe, I don't like this conversion in that it seems very intense and serious.

I hope this helps:

<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

[AuburnRyan]

You're now correct!

The new "high-performance" AGX's will handle any just about any rate you'd wanna use on the street. &nbsp;

By the way, you'll be able to mess with the shock (actually it's a strut from my understanding) settings to you heart's content with your stock, or aftermarket springs! &nbsp;

Luke91 (and the rest), you're points are interesting to me...and they make sense! &nbsp;Thanks for the insight. &nbsp;

By the way, just a reccomendation, I had Blitz springs I bought from TristarX a long time ago on my '93. &nbsp;These are not available here, but were comfortable on the road but flat in the corners...I wish I knew they're rates. &nbsp;Anyways, by comparison, Intrax is very similar and nice, I've rode in three 240's (s13) with intrax, and like them as well...same characteristics. &nbsp;As for now, I bought my '91 in June, and am still deciding how I'm gonna set up...but I also was considering ground controls, but have never ridden in them in a Nissan. &nbsp;Best way is to ride with a friend who has what you want to try...P.S. &nbsp;and make sure it's a 240! &nbsp;My $.02

<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

[tnord]

To tnord: You are an ass.

true

I don't care how long you have been on this board, you have no right to disrespect anyone like you did to me.

little oversensitive are we?

I would never call you an "idiot" unless you personally insulted me first. Unless you own Ground Controll, or have some deep spiritual connection with the porducts they sell, I don't think I insulted you first. When you are ready to quit with the attitude, the magazine mechanics, and "bench car building", maybe we'll get along in a discussion.

i never claimed to be a certified technician, or even close to it. does that make me an idiot? far from it. speaking of which, i'm not saying any of what you said is wrong just yet, but what makes you all knowing?

i'd reply to the technical aspects of what i missed last night, but i really don't feel like thinking that hard while hungover. later though.........

[luke91]

Ok, it's done, then. &nbsp;Well, for me anyway. &nbsp;I can't explain my theories any better than I already have, partly because I don't know the proper technical terms for what I'm trying to explain. &nbsp;If anyone understands what I tried to explain, good. &nbsp;If not, oh well.

Regardless, to wpayne:
My Ground Control/KYB AGX set-up really isn't all that bad. &nbsp;I just think there's room for improvement, and it's worth the extra $200 to buy Tein Coilovers. &nbsp;That's just my opinion. &nbsp;
The car still has almost no body roll, and it handles great. &nbsp;240's handle good anyway, but the Ground Controls do add to it.
Just be careful taking turns on bumpy roads. &nbsp;They DO bounce. &nbsp;

Another VERY IMPORTANT point: &nbsp;Ground Control's 240sx kit utilizes the following spring rates (approximately):
front 425
rear 295
I'll correct myself when I know the precise spring rates, but you get the picture, right? &nbsp;The reason the front is &nbsp;so stiff is to compensate for the loss in spring dimension when they made the springs skinnier. &nbsp;Get it? &nbsp;ANYWAY:

I would raise the rear spring rate a little, if I were you. &nbsp;Take me seriously on this one. &nbsp;You don't want to raise it too much, though, or you'll over steer a lot (which is good for drifting and road racing). &nbsp;It's up to you. &nbsp;I'll post the actual spring rates tomarrow. &nbsp;
--luke

[wpayne]

I'm gonna see how much I really need the Tien adjustables. But from what you say, the setup you have with the AGX and GC's sound good enough for me.

Oh, and you said that the increased spring rate causes more oversteer? Well, I want this so that I can be able to drift easier and with more control but what If I want to take it to the track? Would I have to get something with a lower spring rate?

Thanks for the valuable info Luke:)

[wpayne]

Sorry, this ties into my last reply.

I meant at the end, "can I just change my springs to a lower spring rate for the track?"

Sorry

[AuburnRyan]

Stiff Springs will work just fine (good) for the track as well! &nbsp;Once you get something and begin to test it's limit, you should find that they will have the car stick very well unless you TRY to drift, either by throttle if you have enough power, or by turning in quickly and countersteering, or by e-brake (I wouldn't recommend). &nbsp;

It's just that if you go too stiff in the rear, wait till the next time it rains and you get oversteer when you dont' want it <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'> , surprise!

You can change rates any time you want, just chang eto another set you have....it's just are you willing to change it each time? &nbsp;I'm sure if you did it constantly you'd get pretty good, and fast, at it. &nbsp;Not worth the time for me, on a daily driver. &nbsp;You'd also, to keep camber correct, need to align the car every time you mess with the suspension...unless you happen to work for a tire company <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

[wpayne]

Cool! Thanks AuburnRyan! Your wisdom is much appreciated:).

[Yosho]

I'm not an Engineer so I can't really comment on luke91's assertion that the fatter widder springs used on a MacPherson strut system compress and rebound in a significatnly different way than does an ERS style spring. &nbsp;

I can say though that Ground Control's ERS springs have many benifits over a standard system like Tein's. &nbsp;First and formost you can pick your own spring rates. &nbsp;That's critical for tuning your car to the type of driving conditions you'll be using them for. &nbsp;To my knowledge, Tein does not offer that option in the US. &nbsp;I also thought Tein uses a close style spring like Ground Control on all their adjustable hight coil over MacPherson strut systems. &nbsp;Am I wrong?

Another huge benifit of an ERS style (or close coiled) spring is that it free's up valuable room allowing you to use more wheel/tire combos than you can with a standard wide/fat spring.

As for ERS springs being bouncy... that's a spring's job. &nbsp;If your car is bouncy after installing a suspension, then your struts are at fault, not your springs. &nbsp;Race struts/shocks are adjustable for both compression and rebound. &nbsp;If you're unable to isolate the problem with AGX's than you may want to look into a real race strut. &nbsp;This is all assuming of course that your not getting the "bounce" because your beating the bump stops to death because you've lowered your car too much.

[wpayne]

Cool, the AGX and GC's sound like a good and flexible combo. I'm gonna hold off for just a bit cause and see if I can find any used adjustable coilovers in Okinawa and have my girlfriend send them over.

Once again, I can't than you all enough:)

[HippoSleek]

Boy, leave town for a week and this comes up again, but w/ a twist.

A few background things:
1. &nbsp;NO suspension that lack adjustable mount points can be lowered all the way. &nbsp;You need at least 1" of shock/strut travel in all cases.
2. &nbsp;Any suspension w/ a spring outside of a shock is a "coilover" by definition. &nbsp;The difference is that some have threaded shock bodies, some have sleeves, and some have fixed perches.
3. &nbsp;There is NO replacement threaded body system (e.g., Tein, HKS, Zeal, etc.) that has wide springs like the factory set up.
4. &nbsp;Sleeves ARE for racing. &nbsp;SCCA rules do not allow threaded shock bodies. &nbsp;Sleeves and custom valved shocks are the best you can do... which is obviously good enough.
5. &nbsp;"Bouncy" rides are due to blown or inadequately valved shocks. &nbsp;It has nothing to do with springs - outside of their ability to destroy shocks.
6. &nbsp;In most applications, AGX's are good to about 450 lb springs, OTS Koni Yellows are good to about 500 lbs. &nbsp;Above that, you need to get the shocks revalved to handle the springs.
7. &nbsp;ERS springs come in a variety of rates and lenths. &nbsp;If you are not custom ordering, you probably aren't getting the best set up.

That said, GC sleeves, when properly paired with appropriate shocks, can provide the best ride possible at the lowest cost. &nbsp;There is functionally no difference between a bling-bling JDM set up and a GC combo - provided you are running similarly valved and stroke shocks. &nbsp;Both are linear spring rates and a rate is a rate. &nbsp;The quality of the shocks is all about how much money you spend. &nbsp;OTS are find for basic rates - if you need more, you will pay about $100/ shock for revalving.

luke - w/ all due respect, I don't really get your argument. &nbsp;I kinda get the stuff about force - but a linear spring rate is a constant. &nbsp;If it takes 450 lbs. to compress the spring one inch, then that is it, right? &nbsp;450:1 = 450:1. &nbsp;Compression of a spring is measured in height - not width. &nbsp;As a result, given the same rate a 2.5" diameter spring and a 4" diameter spring will compress exactly 1" at the same level of force. &nbsp;That being the case, there is no fundamental difference in the application.

What is different, and totally omitted in your explanation, is the difference b/n a shock and a strut. &nbsp;As you may be aware, part of the design of a MacPherson set up is to place more of the load on the strut itself, rather than other supporting members. &nbsp;Accordingly, the struts themselves are of a sturdier design. &nbsp;For stability sake, this required enlarging the pistons and rod housings in the suspension which in turn required moving the spring further up. &nbsp;This is why the coils are all above the tires in a strut system - space and design. &nbsp;Now, why a wider spring was chosen at that point, I don't know.

[tnord]

now that my birthday drinking binge is over.......i'll reply in moderation, due to the fact that hippo already said a lot of what i was going to, and thread is pretty much dying.

luke.......in all seriousness, i'm still wondering what your automotive background is.

but anyway, i think a lot of what you're trying to say are the downfalls in the GC setup lie in the design of the car, not the design of the GC's. &nbsp;i keep reading about the importance of having lots of room for suspension travel (but i don't know why it's so important just yet), which the front does not have (nor do i think any mcphearson setup does). if there's a way to switch the basic design of the suspension, i don't know about it. ahhh hell, i don't give a rip. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hehe.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':hehe:'>

and in the end, since you know so much about suspension, if you don't like the GC's, i still say it's your own fault. &nbsp;

<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

[wpayne]

Luke - Just out of curiousity but umm...do would you like to sell your GC's and AGX's? If you really don't like them then we both have some to gain:)