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Old 12-17-2010, 12:06 PM   #1
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Snapped another throttle body - SR20DET - PICS

So here we go again, I broke another throttle body on my SR. The first time this happened, the #4 ate the screw, I lifted my head gasket and kicked a rocker in the head. After I switched to the "new" one I decided to weld the backs of the screws encase this happened again. Well luckily that move saved my motor and I just broke the axle again. Basically all components that are related are as follows.

Freddy Intake Manifold
OEM throttle body assembly
S14 SR cable pulley
240SX throttle cable
custom base bracket.

Here is a picture of that:




Here is the carnage from the first episode. Now consider I'm not your typical "throw shit together" enthusiast. I like my car to work well and I plan for that in my build. I can't say it wasn't over pulling the stop the first time, b/c I honestly don't remember, but I will say I assure you that I set it up with good intention and adjusted everything appropriately; I thought.



Found this in the #4 cylinder with a magnetic wand




On the second throttle body I can assure you that there was ABSOLUTELY no chance I could have over pull the throttle body. I was very meticulous on the second install and was sure i had it adjusted well. Not to mention I also welded the screws to the center axle to be damn sure they couldn't dislodge. Like I said, that luckily saved the motor this time. The break was in the same place as last time and it doesn't look as though the welding had weakened the axle any. Here are a couple shots of that.





I'm not sure what I aim to gain from this thread. Maybe it will be useful in the future to someone or maybe someone on here has dealt with this before and can provide some incite. Currently I'm sourcing another OEM throttle body and plan to weld the screws as before and install as I had it. I'll then set up an indicator and see if I can't measure some amount of deflection. It wouldn't be difficult to weld on a "spine" or some additional material but I just wouldn't have thought it would be necessary. I'm also planning to review the base bracket and see if that isn't part of the culprit.

Any thoughts? Experiences?

For reference, the car is tracked as a drift car and makes just over 400 to the wheels.
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Old 12-17-2010, 12:27 PM   #2
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lmk i got a set of s14sr throttle body if needed.
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Old 12-17-2010, 12:58 PM   #3
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you can use a G20 TB but you'd have to rearrange the TB cable guide...Thats what i used for mine when the butterfly decide to snap while my wife was stuck on L.A. traffic...lol

Atleast its newer thats all, Could run your $60 at the junkyard.. or FREE.. with this cold weather were having, go to your local yard with a big ass snow jacket.. HAHAHAHHA ;]
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Old 12-17-2010, 01:08 PM   #4
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Awww fuck I would be PISSED if that happened to me.... Could it be temperature related like the cold and heat accelerating metal fatigue?

The other time it happened, was it around the same time of year. cause its FREEZING in Georgia ATL.... sheesh
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Old 12-17-2010, 01:50 PM   #5
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Seems like you don't have a stop to your throttle cable/pedal, causing you to put a lot of stress on the throttle shaft when you are smashing that pedal to the floor, haha.

Fab up a stop for the throttle pulley. Problem solved.
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Old 12-17-2010, 02:06 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX View Post
Seems like you don't have a stop to your throttle cable/pedal, causing you to put a lot of stress on the throttle shaft when you are smashing that pedal to the floor, haha. Fab up a stop for the throttle pulley. Problem solved.
^ Problem not solved... There is one casted as part of the OEM throttle body, you can see it in the picture. What I'm going to check once reinstalled is the stop below the skinny pedal and how it relates to the stop on the throttle body. I am quite sure however that its not the problem. I wonder if its just because of the S14 pulley, since it sits further out on the shaft? Isn't the S14 SR throttle body a little different?

Quote:
Originally Posted by florante rea View Post
lmk i got a set of s14sr throttle body if needed.
Care to share any pictures for a reference. I might also be interested in it too.

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Awww fuck I would be PISSED if that happened to me.... Could it be temperature related like the cold and heat accelerating metal fatigue? The other time it happened, was it around the same time of year. cause its FREEZING in Georgia ATL.... sheesh
Yeah and it happened in the middle of a 4th gear pull on the highway; sorta reminded of those Supra videos you see when the motor grenades. Similar times but I can't put my finger on exactly when it happened. The marking on the valve plate seems to suggest it wasn't just the other day. That axle has got to see the full spectrum of cold-heat regardless of outside temperatures.
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Old 12-17-2010, 02:41 PM   #7
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Make your TB bracket out of something with some give. Use like 0.063" thick aluminum instead of the 1/8-3/16" stuff you're using now. This will give some flex there to reduce stress on the throttle shaft.
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Old 12-17-2010, 03:14 PM   #8
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I believe switching over to the Q45 throttle body has alleviated a lot of high HP guys' problems with this same scenario.
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Old 12-17-2010, 03:29 PM   #9
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Sure there is a stop there, but when you hit the stop the cable is still pulling on the pulley and putting stress on the shaft.
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Old 12-18-2010, 12:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Def View Post
Make your TB bracket out of something with some give. Use like 0.063" thick aluminum instead of the 1/8-3/16" stuff you're using now. This will give some flex there to reduce stress on the throttle shaft.
I hear what you're saying but think about the stock setup; its pretty rigid. Don't you think its just probably the extended placement of the S14 pulley?

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I believe switching over to the Q45 throttle body has alleviated a lot of high HP guys' problems with this same scenario.
Do you have a picture of one. Are there any noticeable differences to the shaft or is it just a larger bore?

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Sure there is a stop there, but when you hit the stop the cable is still pulling on the pulley and putting stress on the shaft.
Na, I'm pretty sure it wasn't over pulling the stop but ya know its hard to tell now. I'll have to verify that on the next install. I wonder what the difference is between the skinny pedals' sweep and the length of pull exposed at the end of the pedal. I mean surely there is a difference given its a 240sx cable an SR throttle body, and an S14 Sr pulley.
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Old 12-18-2010, 01:42 PM   #11
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Quote:
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Sure there is a stop there, but when you hit the stop the cable is still pulling on the pulley and putting stress on the shaft.

I dont think that would snap the shaft, since what your pulling on has the stopper, (unless its pulling at an angle) Now if his Throttle plate is getting hung up or binding before the Throttle pully hits the stopper then yeah I could see the shaft snapping
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Old 12-18-2010, 04:04 PM   #12
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Your throttle pulley is on wrong. Placing the cable out that far is likely putting excessive bending forces in the axle when its resting on the stop.

I'd consider flipping it or making a pedal stop.
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Old 12-18-2010, 04:34 PM   #13
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ok so i just installed my new intake manifold and put the s14 throttle cable pulley as recommended by enjuku> should i be worried about the same issue?
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Old 12-18-2010, 05:47 PM   #14
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I hear what you're saying but think about the stock setup; its pretty rigid. Don't you think its just probably the extended placement of the S14 pulley?
I imagine that doesn't help the situation.

I have a FReddy manifold with the stock S13 pulley still on there. I just built a bracket out of some bent 1/16" 2024 aluminum angle. It noticeably flexes before the pedal stop hits, but I've never had a problem because it basically acts as a limiter on how much force can ever be applied to the throttle body.
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Old 12-18-2010, 08:25 PM   #15
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Quote:
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I imagine that doesn't help the situation.

I have a FReddy manifold with the stock S13 pulley still on there. I just built a bracket out of some bent 1/16" 2024 aluminum angle. It noticeably flexes before the pedal stop hits, but I've never had a problem because it basically acts as a limiter on how much force can ever be applied to the throttle body.
By no means am I doubting your reasoning, but I've had mine made out of 1/8" angle iron now forever, and haven't had an issue.


Ultimatly, I don't think there is a true 'reason' to this happening. I'm sure some of the smarter guys here could form up some reason in relation to pull and the force involved and that stuff (above my head!) but it's still a relative mystery.

With that said, I am going with a Tomei TB (got it super cheap) this winter to ward off any potential problem. Maybe I read to far into stuff, maybe(gasp) at times I follow forum superstition, but It's just a sake of mind issue.
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Old 12-18-2010, 10:01 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by mct3351 View Post
Your throttle pulley is on wrong. Placing the cable out that far is likely putting excessive bending forces in the axle when its resting on the stop.

I'd consider flipping it or making a pedal stop.
WHAT HE SAID.

You have that pulley on backwards dude. I don't have an SR but on all the Nissan engine's I've dealt with, that pulley goes on the other way so the cable is closer to the TB itself. It's sticking out quite a bit farther than it should.

You're prob putting the shaft in bending whenever it hits the stop, and you're moving that lever arm out by installing the pulley wrong, which causes the shaft to fail since it wasn't design for that amount of stress.

I don't think the cable bracket yall talkin bout makes that big of a difference.
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Old 12-19-2010, 07:42 PM   #17
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Quote:
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WHAT HE SAID.
You have that pulley on backwards dude. I don't have an SR but on all the Nissan engine's I've dealt with, that pulley goes on the other way so the cable is closer to the TB itself. It's sticking out quite a bit farther than it should.
You're prob putting the shaft in bending whenever it hits the stop, and you're moving that lever arm out by installing the pulley wrong, which causes the shaft to fail since it wasn't design for that amount of stress.
I don't think the cable bracket yall talkin bout makes that big of a difference.
Are you two both blind...? You can't flip it over. If you do that there isn't a place for the cable to guide. There is only one single way to install it...
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Old 12-19-2010, 08:25 PM   #18
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Well then that pulley wont work. If you were to compare the length of the moment arm of the s13 pulley on the s13 throttle body, with the length of the moment arm of an s14 pulley (installed backwards from the way its installed on an s14 throttle body) installed on an s13 throttle body, the way you have it, its about 4 times longer and the bending loads are 4 times more.

Since I'm blind and cant see that this is the only configurstion that will work the easiest thing to do, is make a pedal stop. This will limit the force pulling/bending on the end of the axle once its fully rotated and resting on its stop.

Or you can disregard my advise and do nothing and keep hoping for a different result.
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Old 12-19-2010, 08:33 PM   #19
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"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results."

I am guessing you have already tried moving the mounting point for the throttle cable?
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Old 12-19-2010, 08:35 PM   #20
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or you can disregard my advise and do nothing and keep hoping for a different result.

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Old 12-19-2010, 08:43 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mct3351 View Post
Well then that pulley wont work. If you were to compare the length of the moment arm of the s13 pulley on the s13 throttle body, with the length of the moment arm of an s14 pulley (installed backwards from the way its installed on an s14 throttle body) installed on an s13 throttle body, the way you have it, its about 4 times longer and the bending loads are 4 times more.

Since I'm blind and cant see that this is the only configurstion that will work the easiest thing to do, is make a pedal stop. This will limit the force pulling/bending on the end of the axle once its fully rotated and resting on its stop.

Or you can disregard my advise and do nothing and keep hoping for a different result.
You haven't looked at an S14 SR in a minute. It is installed just as I have it on my S13 SR throttle body. I don't think the moment arm is actually any different.




Quote:
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"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results." I am guessing you have already tried moving the mounting point for the throttle cable?
Obviously, and I don't plan to just re-install as without some alteration. I have not move the pull point yet. If you look at the first picture, its pretty nicely lined up. I really think I'm either over pulling the cable a few thousands or the S14 throttle body has some differences


Anybody have any pictures of an S14 SR throttle body?
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Old 12-19-2010, 09:11 PM   #22
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You are right about how the s14 pulley is installed on an s14 throttle body but the pulley sits closer to the throttle body on the s14 than the s13. See the "free body diagram" for clarification on what I mean by bending. The throttle cable pull is much closer to the throttle body on both the s13 and s14 from the factory than what your working with. The yellow shows an exageration of how the axle is bending once the stop is reached. The OEM s13 pulley is deeply concave to move the pulling action closer to the throttle body.
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Old 12-20-2010, 07:27 AM   #23
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Quote:
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You are right about how the s14 pulley is installed on an s14 throttle body but the pulley sits closer to the throttle body on the s14 than the s13. See the "free body diagram" for clarification on what I mean by bending. The throttle cable pull is much closer to the throttle body on both the s13 and s14 from the factory than what your working with. The yellow shows an exageration of how the axle is bending once the stop is reached. The OEM s13 pulley is deeply concave to move the pulling action closer to the throttle body.picture
I'm not denying that the S14 pulley, installed on an S13 throttle body, doesn't increases the leverage advantage on the center shaft, I even brought that up myself when responding to Def. What I am trying to illustrate that there is more to just slapping on an S14 pulley to cure the cable alignment issues with a GReddy style manifold. And more recently to discount those who think I've got it installed incorrectly.

The main objective behind this thread is to bring to light the problems with this commonly recognized quick solution for the GReddy style manifold. Thanks for the illustration, and I'm quite aware of what you are describing, but like I said, this is/has been a common solution for this manifold. Apparently more support is needed for this assembly.

My new throttle body will be here in a few days. I'll get some real numbers and see if its an adjustment issue or if more support is needed. I think the pulley is a great solution but might require additional support.
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Old 12-20-2010, 07:50 AM   #24
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I believe Steve Shadows on here went to a Q45 TB and all his problems went away.

The Q45 TB does indeed have a larger bore, but I think the axle shaft is also a lot thicker.

IIRC he had a thread on this forum (if not, then it was probably on Fresh Alloy) explaining what was going on and the results, with pictures of course.
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Old 12-20-2010, 09:40 AM   #25
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Quote:
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I'm not denying that the S14 pulley, installed on an S13 throttle body, doesn't increases the leverage advantage on the center shaft, I even brought that up myself when responding to Def. What I am trying to illustrate that there is more to just slapping on an S14 pulley to cure the cable alignment issues with a GReddy style manifold. And more recently to discount those who think I've got it installed incorrectly.

Ahhh I see what they are saying about your pulley, it's simply way to far over to work as OEM...there ahs certainly got to be an additional 'stress' on the length of that rod being so far over, compared to where OEM is.

Here are pics of mine...granted not the best, but I've NEVER had an issue:





Pics from a few years back:




Edit: Here I zoomed in (I know quality sucks, but you can see haha)

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Old 12-20-2010, 12:10 PM   #26
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yeah I'm thinking I might machine a support bearing; with a brass or bronze journal to support the outer end, or add some strength to the center shaft. I see you made a bracket they allowed you to retain the S13 pulley. I'll keep that in mind, since I know I've got an S13 one around here somewhere, if I can't mfg. a more rigid setup.
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Old 12-20-2010, 01:55 PM   #27
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Yea it took a few trys, but I got it sorted. Made one for my roomate as well. I'll take better pics and measurements tonight for ya
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Old 12-20-2010, 07:03 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX View Post
Seems like you don't have a stop to your throttle cable/pedal, causing you to put a lot of stress on the throttle shaft when you are smashing that pedal to the floor, haha.

Fab up a stop for the throttle pulley. Problem solved.
It HAS to be this, right?

I just installed a new KA throttle cable on an SR throttle body, S14, and I KNOW I set it up properly....


When the throttle is fully open (verified by a second person), the pedal is NOT touching the pedal stop.

I guess the SR throttle is smaller than the KA one, and thus requires less pedal throw to fully rotate 90*.

I plan to install a piece of 2x4 or something on top of the pedal stop so that the pedal JUST hits the stopper as it opens all the way.
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Old 12-21-2010, 06:52 AM   #29
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Out of all of this im thinking the best and cheapest remedy(except the 2x4 behind the pedal) would be to fab up a bracket that locates the throttle cable back inwards in order to utilize the stock throttle pulley again. Am i missing something? Im hoping to finish this small but so important detail on my car today.
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Old 12-21-2010, 07:24 AM   #30
s14unimog
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: In a place, near a river, over a lake
Age: 28
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^ Likely. It might just be that the S14 throttle body pulley just induces too much side loading on the shaft, being that sits that far out. If what Jspaeth says is true, its possible that the pedal will allow for an over rotate scenario and just break the shaft... Either way, what ever I put back in the line of fire, I assure you those screws will be welded. It was too much of a headache to do a head gasket for this; and I lucked out with my damage....

My throttle body should be here any day now... I'll know something more by then.
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