What standalone ecu do u recomend?!?!

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by hanzbrady

Well, I mean i don't know about those exact numbers, but let's take the RB25 VS a 2JZ the 2JZ will cost roughly the same to buy (could be had much cheaper if buying stateside and converting a non turbo block to turbo, is half a liter bigger, and most of that being in stroke.

So cost X output the JZ family would win here stateside at least.

yes, the 2jz-gte can be purchased for less than an RB25, and carries an extra 0.5L of displacementso is naturally favored. I would never want to open one up though (no turbo conversions). Just use the JDM "cheapy" automatic motorset and put a reasonable single on it, 480~rwhp and a SAFC is cheap and reliable that way. Perfectly fine for a daily, 10 years you can get out of one (100,000 miles+) The money needs to go into the transmission. That is where the true heart of the vehicle lies. You have to get the right converter, the right shift kit, and using the OEM trans computer is possible this way, it will be a low 11-second pump gas daily on street tires with a 2.6 second 60', with less than 5k under the hood. Not a bad little setup.

I found a picture of one of them, from 2008. This was a cookie cutter build, engines were purchased 2jz-automatic for $1200~ at that time, everything including the car and paint came to just under $13,500~ and we sold the cars like this, auto, safc, 500~rwhp for around 18-25k each. This one went to the track a couple times on nitrous. You can see the skylineking.com sticker on the front, I had made back then for the website I created to help sell the cars. Very simple builds, ebay manifolds for this engine never cracked, twin-walbro fuel pumps for when the boost was turned up (the turbo supports around 750rwhp iirc and we did use race gas "C16" for those passes, yes using an OEM longblock).

Top pic is a black kouki with the same engine/swap as the bottom blue kouki. The black car was the only one with nitrous / went to the track though. We even kept the A/C, if you look carefully in the front there is a small condenser we found laying on the floor of the shop in the back, nobody knew what car it came from but it worked fine.



Many will spend months, or years, building a car. I am not into that idea, and the most important lesson I learned from experience is that it doesn't have to be that way.
In just 3 days, you can turn out a car like that, or this. I broke this one up into sections so you can see what I mean.

Being able to produce a 400 or 500whp daily driver, 28-30mpg, in a couple days, is the only way to play the 240sx game IMO. You aren't going to be able to do that waiting on a machine shop, for example, and these cars are "cheap" so most of that extra money spent 'building and waiting' will be wasted (no profit for the owner) especially if the built engine fails shortly (more common than you might realize).
The high frequency of using OEM longblocks in builds, and testing their limitations was the key, and now we all know what works so there is no more guessing.

[TheRealSy90]

IMO the better the ems you choose, the closer you can get to a factory-like tune and drivability.


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[ADIDASilvias]

I suppose one main difference is I never plan on selling my Zenki. I have a lot of personal time invested into it at this point, and unless I fall on hard times it will be one of the last things I consider selling. I'm not looking at it as an investment, I know I'll never get out of it what I have in it. There is the possibility that the value increases in the future, but I don't really care. It's as much about the journey as it is about the destination to me. Every part I have selected has had thought and consideration to achieve a specific goal. The car will probably never be truly complete, in the sense that there will always be something I may want to revise or upgrade based on new tech or personal preference at the time. But that is the difference between building a car to make a sale versus building it for the enjoyment of building and driving your own handiwork. You look at it as a game, I look at it as decently expensive hobby. Two sides of the 240 coin.

Also, that $1200 dollar engine in 2008 is now a $2400 or more engine now. And maybe it's just me, but I would never drive an automatic, especially when it is surrounded by a sports car. It cheapens the experience. That's how I feel about it anyhow.

[Tyler_240]

Megasquirt...has everything you need and want at a reasonable price

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by ADIDASilvias

I suppose one main difference is I never plan on selling my Zenki. I have a lot of personal time invested into it at this point, and unless I fall on hard times it will be one of the last things I consider selling. I'm not looking at it as an investment, I know I'll never get out of it what I have in it.

1. Time
From an enthusiast point of view, more time spent driving the car means less time spent building it, just like more time spent building it means less time driving it. I am only trying to get for us the most driving time for the smallest investment of build time possible with this idea.

2. Cost
Profit is no longer an applicable idea in 2016 where concerning a 240, unless it is a completely stock low mileage unit you buy at blue-book price and flip. I never meant to imply that a 240 should be built for profit; I was only showing that side of the game to give some ideas of what is possible to achieve as far as built time and routine (the same build, over and over, "cookie cutter" gives a repeatable result for a guaranteed investment, no surprises) and how cost can be reduced by using known reliable configurations.

3. Reliability
If we cut down on time investment, and cost investment, how can we maintain reliability? For daily drivers, we need maximum mileage and maximum cold starts, which generally means tight bearing clearances, light weight oils, and parts that tolerate cold-style driving well. Enter the wide variety of factory engines, already built with this in mind. If you stay within a fair margin of a factory engine's output (figure 140-160% of rated OEM output for a majority of OEM engines in the world), reliability will be excellent, and this will cut down on many different kinds of costs and time. It should be the goal of any budget minded enthusiast to use an OEM engine, not only because it will generally be more cost effective, but because it will be more reliable, and if replacements are accessible this further heightens the advantage of using one.

[derass]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

LSx engine will run you $1000~

A truck engine (Lxx), sure. But an LS1 or better (LSx) is far more than $1k.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by derass

A truck engine (Lxx), sure. But an LS1 or better (LSx) will be far more than $1k.

The $800~ truck/van engine known as the 5.3L LSx is the IDEAL engine for 500-700rwhp daily drivers. Please see the stock bottom end reliability thread

http://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-ind...lity-list.html

[ADIDASilvias]

Originally Posted by Tyler_240

Megasquirt...has everything you need and want at a reasonable price

Whereas I respect your opinion due to the fact that MS is a viable option and has a lot going for it considering the price, I would not personally choose it due to the learning curve. It isn't the easiest system to implement, and requires a great deal of research to get initially set up and tuned.

MS, along with Nistune, are probably the cheapest options for engine management. Nistune being ultimately the easier of the two, and MS being quite a bit more powerful.

I initially looked at Nistune, and was all for it until I started adding up costs of the daughter board (DB), install of the DB, and software license. I have no problem soldering most things, but the connection points on the daughter board are fricken tiny and outside of my skill comfort zone, so I would have someone familiar with the install do it. I also did not receive an ECU with my engine, so the additional $100 to $150 for the stock ECU was also added. By that point you were looking at PFC L-Jetro territory, minus the Datalogit, and the PFC is a better option.

So I looked at MS since the price is fairly cheap. I read A LOT in the MS forums, and it seemed like implementation would be fairly difficult, though obviously not impossible, and my personal opinion was it wasn't something I wanted to get into. If NateMR2 feels it is worth the effort, then it is a viable option for a fair price.

[derass]

People might call a truck engine an LS, but in reality it's an Lxx. That's all I'm saying, not disputing their capabilities.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by derass

People might call a truck engine an LS, but in reality it's an Lxx. That's all I'm saying, not disputing their capabilities.

Yeah, I dont get hung up on names. LMthis and LTthat, its all the same to me. What is important is that you know which one you are looking at, you know what you want. You know what they are capable of and you know what parts to install to get to that cookie cutter result with no surprises, up and running fast and driving the car you enjoy. Tuning is relative, all engines operate with similar principles and are tuned using similar methods, ECU all operate in virtually the same manner, a digital processor flips digital outputs on and off to time fuel and spark. The question is: whether you, as the owner, have the ability or not, to adjust these output parameters to your engine's liking over as wide range as possible that determines the overall result. A result which, if you have been paying attention, can be pre-determined before spending a single penny (the cookie cutter philosophy)

[ThePaddy]

Try pricing a mistake ECU

It's a simple ECU with some nice features and better resolution.

It is more developed than a pfc

[Tyler_240]

You are not wrong, and I agree that there is a learning curve, but that is with anything you go with.

With your list of mods, I would highly suggest going IAT & MAP and ditch your MAF setup. I also converted my water temp sender to a GM unit. There is a preset for your wideband in the config. Also, with your GM coils, you can easily have the dwell adjusted for optimal.

While you can do this on other units, I can do these corrections from my phone over BT. It cost me $13.00 for the Bluetooth module, 30mins to solder a few connections, and DIY the shit, and the MSDROID App is free.

You can datalog to your phone, tablet, etc...and you get free firmware upgrades as well. While the wiring may look tedious at first, everything is well documented.

I understand where you are coming from, but don't be scared away. The VEAnalyze is a great feature, look into it. I use the flat shift and launch control features and they work precisely.

Originally Posted by ADIDASilvias

Whereas I respect your opinion due to the fact that MS is a viable option and has a lot going for it considering the price, I would not personally choose it due to the learning curve. It isn't the easiest system to implement, and requires a great deal of research to get initially set up and tuned.

MS, along with Nistune, are probably the cheapest options for engine management. Nistune being ultimately the easier of the two, and MS being quite a bit more powerful.

I initially looked at Nistune, and was all for it until I started adding up costs of the daughter board (DB), install of the DB, and software license. I have no problem soldering most things, but the connection points on the daughter board are fricken tiny and outside of my skill comfort zone, so I would have someone familiar with the install do it. I also did not receive an ECU with my engine, so the additional $100 to $150 for the stock ECU was also added. By that point you were looking at PFC L-Jetro territory, minus the Datalogit, and the PFC is a better option.

So I looked at MS since the price is fairly cheap. I read A LOT in the MS forums, and it seemed like implementation would be fairly difficult, though obviously not impossible, and my personal opinion was it wasn't something I wanted to get into. If NateMR2 feels it is worth the effort, then it is a viable option for a fair price.

[Corbic]

Megasquirt

[ADIDASilvias]

Originally Posted by ThePaddy

Try pricing a mistake ECU

It's a simple ECU with some nice features and better resolution.

It is more developed than a pfc

Lol, autocorrect must have gotten you. Unless it actually is a 'mistake' ECU... Probably not gonna touch that one if the developers named it that...

Originally Posted by Tyler_240

You are not wrong, and I agree that there is a learning curve, but that is with anything you go with.

With your list of mods, I would highly suggest going IAT & MAP and ditch your MAF setup. I also converted my water temp sender to a GM unit. There is a preset for your wideband in the config. Also, with your GM coils, you can easily have the dwell adjusted for optimal.

While you can do this on other units, I can do these corrections from my phone over BT. It cost me $13.00 for the Bluetooth module, 30mins to solder a few connections, and DIY the shit, and the MSDROID App is free.

You can datalog to your phone, tablet, etc...and you get free firmware upgrades as well. While the wiring may look tedious at first, everything is well documented.

I understand where you are coming from, but don't be scared away. The VEAnalyze is a great feature, look into it. I use the flat shift and launch control features and they work precisely.

I'm actually not the OP, though it seems I may have threadjacked, which I apologize for as that was not my intention. I was in the same boat as nateMR2 about 6 months ago, and I have approximately the same power goals, though I chose the R34 Rb25det Neo. I'm looking to make approximately 450rwhp initially with a conservative tune, with the engine and support mods able to handle around 650rwhp at the most. I most likely will not be pushing it for quite awhile since 450 in a street 240 will probably be plenty.

Traction will be handled by 255/35R18 fronts and 275/35R18 rears in BFG Sport Comp 2 flavor.

Suspension is FEAL 441 with 8k/5k Swift spring rates, valved by Odi for road racing.

Adjustable arms are ISR Pro Series all around (every arm available).

New Moog ball joints front and rear.

New OEM 5 lug hubs all corners

Subframe bushings are Energy Suspension Poly. Diff bushings are ISR solid.

Brakes are Z32 (30mm aluminum fronts) all around, 17/16" master cylinder, with cross drilled and slotted rotors.

Headlights are clear covers with HID projector retrofit.

Everything above is already complete. I'll get the engine swap done over the winter, then move on to interior and exterior.

If you go back and look at my list, I am going MAP and IAT with the Link G4+ ECU. I was posting my set-up to give nateMR2 an idea of the list of items maybe not required, but recommended, for supporting the HP he wants. He could accomplish the HP goal with less, but he also mentioned reliability which is one of my goals as well, and why I have an extensive list of support mods.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by RB25GUY

*Tries to refute claim about high horsepower.... posts graph of car barely making 1,000whp*


Uh, okay

Also, that's a Dynapack. A quick google says they read typically 8-10% higher then a Dynojet.... so that's 900whp car stateside.

[Kingtal0n]

1. its a terrible way to run an engine IMO, peak boost at 5k or 6k rpm is ridiculous. Dyno queen? Useless power unless you have a transmission/drivetrain that will hold the engine in that region for real racing competition, or something to speed things up (nitrous) and $$ for the launch/lunch (drivetrain becomes lunch)

2. the later and more laggy the setup, the faster the map moves through the transient area, the less of the map you will use overall, and the easier it is to tune.
In other words, show me a 500 horsepower and 1000 horsepower setups for the same engine, and the lower power engine will make more use of its transient regions, partial boost response will be better/more often, stepping down somewhat on the throttle will give "some boost" which requires more tuning, whereas the higher power engine will not pass 0 to 1psi readily until it hits that special rpm and so makes much less use of the boost portion of its map.

Once an engine is "like that" with a sudden onset and fast to ramp, the tuning becomes very linear and simple/easy. You basically pick a number and just hold it there, torque will stay mostly flat to the end if the engine is built correctly to match the turbo. If not, the boost stays flat but torque falls and so you are pulling fuel and pushing timing by redline. Either way, still easier than trying to tune part throttle boost at lower rpms using a smaller turbo. I'd rather have a simple ecu for the higher power engine, and a more complicated sophistocated ECU for the lower power engines. The more complicated computer will give me more options for improving response and getting the most out of the setup, whereas the options are wasted on the high power engine because it acts more like an on/off switch than something which requires finesse and experience to tune.

Sorry for typing so much, just trying to make it clear what I am saying, with respect to tuning and configuration, engine type/style and tuning go hand in hand.

[Freddy]

Ecumasters has a black Friday sale now original EMU for 799$

[derass]

^^Looks like the base ECUMasters unit needs to be wired from scratch.

Their plug-and-play solution doesn't look very easy or elegant either, it appears as if you still need to pin the adapter.



Regardless, seems like a good deal for the extra bit of work. I know a guy with a 500+ WHP JZ using one.

[RB25GUY]

Originally Posted by Corbic

*Tries to refute claim about high horsepower.... posts graph of car barely making 1,000whp*


Uh, okay

Also, that's a Dynapack. A quick google says they read typically 8-10% higher then a Dynojet.... so that's 900whp car stateside.

hmm you want to act like 900whp isnt alot of hp for a "DINOSAUR ECU"
all i was trying to get at is that people talk a lot of crap about the Power FC its old, it cant handle high hp applications, cant read 1000cc injectors... (none of these claims are ones i got from Zilvia) but people are misinformed as far as the capability of the unit itself! So my "refute claim" is actually accurate and wow look at the graph smooth lines .....

Aem v2 dyno sheet that graph doesnt look too good and its suppose to be the more superior ecu?

[smoked240]

You can't compare ecu's when the tuner is shit.

A ecu will only performe as good as the person who tuned it.

[KAT-PWR]

You also realize you can change the smoothness of the graph on the Dyno too right?

[TheRealSy90]

Pick one of the better, decent ecu's and save up for it. When you've saved up for it and have enough just keep saving for like two more months and just get an Infinity setup.

[RB2.5]

Adaptronic Modular ECUs look real nice. I will be swapping out for one soon.

[Kingtal0n]

"data-logit" plugs into power FC and turns it into a typical stand-alone computer. You can re-sell the data-logit when you are done to re-coup the money if you want. Use a popular wideband, drive the car around and log the values like this.



Get rid of un-sure data points, by examining the number of data-points collected, averages, minimum and maximum valves recorded, and by reviewing the chart to see how the map was moving when those points were being recorded. Here is an example.



The closer you are to a final tune, the more careful you will want to be when using recorded values. For an initial tune, most of the values are useful. Later, you will want to smooth them (make the changes less intense) and remove any low-quality data points.

Finally, you paste the result back into the PFC.



This is a very powerful feature because you no longer have to watch the fuel map while you drive to tune the vehicle. You can drive for hours if you want, then collect and use any valid data-points to re-tune the fuel map. This excel file is downloaded free from the data-logit web group where they also update the software.

[TheRealSy90]

That's a lot of driving on an un-tuned setup to create the tune IMO.


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[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

That's a lot of driving on an un-tuned setup to create the tune IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

thanks for the post,

You can drive for as long as you want. You can drive for 5 seconds if you wish, and check the log and re-tune then go again. The "Driving for hours" was only after you had mostly tuned the map and wished to hit "all the corners", sometimes the engine only touches a region briefly once in a great while (see all the 1's?) Normally you would trim those ones, but if this were say, the 10th or 20th time you decided to log the data and finally had hit one of those points, you would want to look back at the moving map when you had hit that "1" to see if the data was good or not. Also consider when basemap tuning you can check nearby values to determine more or less if the box in question is a valid number, often the basemap of engines are fairly smooth, rarely will a box jump in value drastically.

Another thing to consider is that the reported values are "averages" which means it is also logging transient data. There is a setting which alters the delay before taking a value and recording it, so this is important for slowing down the logger (making it wait a second or two before logging a data point, vs letting it take a value immediately, can be setup manually) once you've established base map for driving. Remember that the values are loaded into excel where you will examine them, and change them. You can manually enter data into an excel box to adjust the increments, i.e. make them smaller or smoother. For example if you know a spot was very rich, but the determined multiplier were something drastic like .655 (65% of the original basemap value) you would simply click the box in excel and change it to something more rational- such as 0.850. Then re-run the engine, hit the spot again and see if it still needed some fuel removed. There is nothing forcing you to make large changes, you can always adjust up or down as you see fit (and I always do) based on the average, hi, low, and wait-period, and other data such as knock data which is also recorded simultaneously on another map, along with a myriad of other variables (a drop down box gives the other logged points for all the other sensor data) and you can also adjust it to show only values which were recorded above or below certain conditions.

Maybe I need to take a video of the process, but my camera is a piece of garbage after the lens melted from some brake cleaner (and its over 10 years old) so I dont know about just yet but I will think of something eventually. It only took me 10 years to make the picture above... sigh! It is easier and faster than any other stand-alone I have ever tuned, fwiw. Anytime you can log wideband data and go back to alter your fuel map is priceless $$ and many stand-alone can do it. You do not need an excel file for making adjustments, that is just to help speed the process (so I can stop the car at a traffic light, copy/paste any delicious adjustments and in 15 seconds have a new map loaded ready to go for more tuning)

[TheRealSy90]

Would it not be faster to make all these calculations and changes within the EMS software itself, and never have to leave the one program or mess with Excel etc? Like the Infinity software for example as well as the other "more expensive" EMS. You can do everything in the tuning program, even live while the car is being driven.
Hell the Infinity program TELLS you what you should change and where once you start driving it with the o2 feedback enabled. It damn near tunes itself from that point.


TLDR I'm an Infinity fanboy and you love PowerFC lol. We can go back and forth forever, but I know we can agree that for more money you DO get a "better" ecu, however the older options CAN be tuned to a similar accuracy if you put in the time and effort.

[steve shadows]

Haltech, AEM and Apexi Power FC are all the top picks for Nissan applications.

[Smurf_240SX]

Originally Posted by RB2.5

Adaptronic Modular ECUs look real nice. I will be swapping out for one soon.

I was just about to ask about this...has anyone had any experience with Adaptronic? Ryan Litteral from Formula D is running this Ecu with his RB25DET and his car looks really good out on the track.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

Would it not be faster to make all these calculations and changes within the EMS software itself, and never have to leave the one program or mess with Excel etc? Like the Infinity software for example as well as the other "more expensive" EMS. You can do everything in the tuning program, even live while the car is being driven

Depends how well you know computers. Being a computer tech/programmer I don't have any trouble dealing with excel while driving, the program is fairly simple to use. If you are unfamiliar with it, I can see why it might be scary to think of having to deal with. At the end of the day, there is little difference between the two situations i.e. both of the methods give you the result you want: a tuned map. The major difference is in the price tag, could cost us over a thousand dollars extra just to have it all included in 1 software bundle. If I can save thousand or 1500 by using excel to perform my calculation it seems worth it to me.

TLDR I'm an Infinity fanboy and you love PowerFC lol. We can go back and forth forever, but I know we can agree that for more money you DO get a "better" ecu, however the older options CAN be tuned to a similar accuracy if you put in the time and effort.

I tune everything. I prefer Accel for its user options. I am only showing how we can save money by using a pfc to do the same exact sort of things.

Also, I feel that you have "time spent" in reverse, the more time and effort is spent tuning the more complex ECU. PFC tuning is fast and simple because it has fewer options. Accel has so many options it can take a long time to fine tune each one, especially injector phasing, idle config, spark optimization, cold start, and so forth, of which the PFC has barely any of that. PFC I slap it on and done in a couple hours. Accel style ECU is days of work, perhaps 8 to 12 hours spread out over 3 days on new configurations.