E85?

[Adafg67]

Hello everyone. I had a question that I need help with. My new setup would soon be a redtop sr20det, ISR Rs3871 turbo, Five0 550cc injectors, full ISR piping from exhaust manifold to the exhaust tips, Z32 MAF, and a Walbro 255 fuel pump. I was wondering it was possible for me to achieve 300hp with E85. Will it be alright to daily?

[Juan@Fontananissan]

Injectors are way too small.

[KAT-PWR]

Not a chance.

[Kylepaschke]

You're going to be close to 250 wheel, but you're going to be running injectors at 100% duty cycle. That will not last for a long time.
I am running 1000cc's on my sr, with a 2871r and i am no where near 100% duty cycle but i also have almost twice the injector as your setup.

[TheRealSy90]

That setup will easily make 300hp on pump 91.

If you want to run E you're going to want 1000cc injectors at the least.

[cbeuglas]

I hit 297whp on 505 injectors with this turbo on 93 16lb of boost. I am on a stock head. I could have done more but I was out of injector.

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[Juan@Fontananissan]

Originally Posted by cbeuglas

I hit 297whp on 505 injectors with this turbo on 93 16lb of boost. I am on a stock head. I could have done more but I was out of injector.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

10% more injector fuel flow does not equal to the 25-35% additional fuel flow required for Ethanol conversion.

[S14kouki805]

Why even go E85? I would think you could hit that goal with 93

[KAT-PWR]

Originally Posted by S14kouki805

Why even go E85? I would think you could hit that goal with 93

Cheaper, better, more power, safer, etc.

[cbeuglas]

I realize that. I was just wanting to make the point that he is fine to make 300whp without e85. Seeing as I have close to the same setup.

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[Dboyizmlg]

Bigger injector my friend...
Like the homies above have mentioned minimum of 1,000cc

[Nissan2nr22]

If you go E85 you need to do it right from the beginning, if I were you id just stay 93 gas especially for such a small goal

[ADIDASilvias]

Originally Posted by KAT-PWR

Cheaper, better, more power, safer, etc.

The first 3 are debatable. I'll give you safer though, for high power/high boost engine safety considering the octane rating.

I'll have a civil discussion about this if you'd like...

[EsChassisLove]

2000cc injectors and never look back. Bosch and IDs are best out there.

[EsChassisLove]

Do a flexfuel sensor and proper tuning for it. That way youre not forced to use just one or the other.

[Croustibat]

you need bigger than 550cc injectors, but 1000 will be way enough. The reason to go with 1000cc ev14 based injectors is they are way newer tech, have better spray and are as easy to map as older 550cc injectors.

I think the cheapest flexfuel setup is a nistune with a flexfuel sensor on your OEM ecu. this will allow you to run either e85 or 93 octane, or any mix of them, without worrying about finding an e85 station.

E85 has pros : it keeps the fueling system and the combustion chambers clean, it also lowers engine and EGT temps, and with its higher octane you can actually use the ideal timing for your engine, instead of having to pull it to avoid det. that is where "more power" comes from.
It also requires more fueling and has less energy in it, so fuel consumption will go up a bit. And it needs LOTS more fuel to start when cold, so make sure the tuner will also tune the cold start cranking and after start maps to fit, otherwise it will take 2 or 3 attemps to start when temps are quite cold.

Also, since it cleans your fuel system, you are going to clog your fuel pickup point and fuel filter a couple of times in the first 1000 miles. Make sure you check these out, since it will kill your pump and make the engine run lean. I have been using e85 for like 10 years now, guess how i know that

[ADIDASilvias]

Originally Posted by Croustibat

I think the cheapest flexfuel setup is a nistune with a flexfuel sensor on your OEM ecu. this will allow you to run either e85 or 93 octane, or any mix of them, without worrying about finding an e85 station.

E85 has pros : it keeps the fueling system and the combustion chambers clean, it also lowers engine and EGT temps, and with its higher octane you can actually use the ideal timing for your engine, instead of having to pull it to avoid det. that is where "more power" comes from.
It also requires more fueling and has less energy in it, so fuel consumption will go up a bit. And it needs LOTS more fuel to start when cold, so make sure the tuner will also tune the cold start cranking and after start maps to fit, otherwise it will take 2 or 3 attemps to start when temps are quite cold.

Also, since it cleans your fuel system, you are going to clog your fuel pickup point and fuel filter a couple of times in the first 1000 miles. Make sure you check these out, since it will kill your pump and make the engine run lean. I have been using e85 for like 10 years now, guess how i know that

I agree with everything you stated.

My counterpoints for the 3 things above:

Cheaper:

Since you need to inject 25-30% (some say 35-40%) more fuel to generate the same power as 93 octane you have to look at gallon pricing accordingly. Depending on where you are in the US, this can vary quite a bit, just like gasoline. The corn belt midwest tends to have more E85 stations available, thus it is a bit cheaper, and can be mildly cheaper in the long run if using E85 exclusively.

However, you also need to consider the buy in cost. Injectors need to be sized to deliver the larger amount of fuel. Bigger injectors, especially in the 1000cc range, bump price up a lot. The fuel pump also may need to have more capacity, which can be about the same price, or quite a bit more expensive if needing to run a priming and inline pump in sequence. The OPs targeted HP does not necessarily lend itself to requiring two pumps, so perhaps that isn't an additional expense. Fuel lines also need to be able to handle the E85, which are generally teflon (PTFE) lined. Other types work too, but you need to verify they are SAE 30R7 rated. If using PTFE lined you have to buy special fitting, and they definitely are more expensive. An ethanol content sensor is the most intelligent way of setting it up, and they aren't cheap either, but it's pretty much a requirement given that E85 actual ethanol content can vary widely at the pump depending on the time of year.

Dividing the buy in cost by the gallon often works out to be much more expensive than running gasoline. I'm not saying it isn't worth it, but 300hp is hardly enough to justify the additional expense, unless you have plans for a major increase in the future, or the cost does not matter to you. If you plan on keeping the car for 10+ years I can see it being a good thing since the establishment is pushing the move to ethanol based fuels more and more, and having it already setup for it can prove useful.

Better:

That depends on your definition of better I suppose. Higher octane rating decreases the chance for abnormal detonation which is very useful for engines pushing the limits, but not a huge advantage in the medium range. If you are tuning your own car and an amateur, it could help if you screw up and make a change that would result in catastrophe with a lower octane fuel. The Green Initiative would argue that ethanol is renewable, but it is generally considered a negative energy fuel in that is uses more energy to produce than it can provide. Not that I give two shits about the GI movement. If I did, I'd buy a Prius or some other god awful ugly bastardization with the only intent of getting from point A to point B. I definitely wouldn't be on this website, lol.

Ethanol does keep your combustion chamber cleaner though there are mixed opinions on whether rubber seals will degrade faster. Newer engines most likely will not have accelerated rubber seal degradation, but if we are talking SR or RB from early to mid 90s you may have issues. If you are replacing most seals during the install (as is recommended, but not always the case), then I'd assume the new seals are probably a slightly different compound and could take the ethanol in stride.

Steps must also be taken when storing the car for months at a time as ethanol is hygroscopic and absorbs water readily. It is usually recommended to use or drain most of the E85, fill with pump gas, and idle awhile before storage.

So, better definitely depends on your definition.

More power:

Again, ethanol has about 33% less caloric content than gasoline. A/F ratio for gasoline is 14.7:1 stoichiometric, and E85 is 9.8:1 stoich. The benefit comes with tuning. At the same boost level, one can advance timing on E85, especially if the engine is knock limited, and increase power output. This comes at the cost of more fuel though. Decreasing the potential for knock will also allow a higher boost pressure to be tuned.

So, apples to apples, you can't just replace gasoline with ethanol and generate more power, though I think you know that.


My advice to the OP is this: If you are wanting to run E85 just make sure you design the build with it in mind. If the extra cost of setup doesn't matter then there are benefits, but don't do it because you think it will be cheaper. It won't be cheaper. If you are doing it to circumvent future issues such as the move towards ethanol based fuels or if you might want to push power limits at some point, that's a very valid reason. If you are going to DD it for the next 5 years at 300hp, run it into a wall or trade up for a newer vehicle, save yourself the time and expense and tune it on pump gas. You should have no problems tuning it to a good 300hp on 93 octane.

If you are wanting to run E85 just to run E85, by all means, have at it - I respect that! The cost of entry definitely isn't extreme, I mean, it's not like you are attempting to retrofit a Corvette rear end into an S13 (not poking fun at drmotorhead, that project sounds wicked sweet, but hella expensive).

[R3b]

Def need bigger, I was running 720-750cc if you want to run 300whp. As far daily goes, its not bad if have a working fuel gauge lol. Just need to understand where your local gas stations are and plan ahead.

There is two by me about 10 miles away each. Between college and work I did about 150-160 miles a week and paid about 22 bucks to fill up my tank. College was a 20 mile round trip a day and work was about 8. Used about 12 gallons for every 150 miles on average which isnt too bad with mixed driving around. Would always fill up on my way to class or after work and had nice late night drive home.

I drove mainly highway one day to get some ac stuff and did about 210 with about 13 gallons gone.

[KAT-PWR]

I ran the numbers for e85 vs premium.
Ethanol was still 0.20 cheaper per gallon here in florida. (Based on averages) but the initial buy in is big. Plus the inconvenience factor

[hanzbrady]

Originally Posted by KAT-PWR

I ran the numbers for e85 vs premium.
Ethanol was still 0.20 cheaper per gallon here in florida. (Based on averages) but the initial buy in is big. Plus the inconvenience factor

Inconvenience is the only thing pushing me away from it, only one fucking station in central Florida and that's 30 minutes from me. If I added the cost of driving to go get it I'd be better off running methanol just because I can get it at work and still have the benefits of E85

[KAT-PWR]

Yeah man, only one station in Gainesville centrally located so it's not terribly out of the way but then I am literally confined to town. I honestly don't think there is another station within full tank driving distance. Haha

[R3b]

Originally Posted by hanzbrady

Inconvenience is the only thing pushing me away from it, only one fucking station in central Florida and that's 30 minutes from me. If I added the cost of driving to go get it I'd be better off running methanol just because I can get it at work and still have the benefits of E85

I have a local by me whos on meth with his sr20 coupe. He is pushing 400whp+- says the biggest thing is tuning it for your driving. Has a little bottle in his tunk tucked away, doesnt fill it up often and only sprays when he really gets on it.

[Croustibat]

@ADIDASilvias > You are mistaking me for KAT-PWR, and talking "theory".

While i also did that, i found that it was just that: theory. And I am not talking about theory; I am talking about 10 years of experimenting.
These 10 years says that fuel consumption increased around 10-15%. Maybe because old/new injector tech, maybe because using the perfect timing setting increases efficiency a lot too.
Fact 1: total fuel consumption (after mandatory tuning) did not go up 30/35%. Power went up like 10%, temperatures went also down. Con: spool was slightly worse.

Fact 2: the upgrade paid itself since i did that a long time ago. I do not live in the US. e85 price here is most of the time 0.60€/liter, and sometimes goes down to 0.30€. Gas is 1.50€/L.This was a no brainer, really.

Is it economically viable right off the bat ? No. It can take some years. But who cares ? Anyone buying an S chassis car with an SR20DET thinking about economy bought the wrong car. These are money pits.

Now, 10% power increase, lower temps, enough octane rating to never risk detting unless something seriously wrong happens ? Yes please, any day. And if it has the added bonus of being cheaper in the long run, that is icing on the cake.

If you are looking for performance, going e85 should be the 2nd thing of your list, the first being a FMIC and the 3rd getting a boost controler. I do not talk about ecu tuning since i believe it should be done at the same time of any of these mods. And i mean tuning, not installing a chip.

No need to change fuel lines either. be careful with injector seals/gaskets though, some do not like e85 at all. fuel absorbing water ... well. I did not notice. My car usually does not move for 6 months when i have things to work on. It always starts right away, on 6 months old fuel. I also thought at first it could be a problem, turns out it is not.

I did not buy the flexfuel sensor, it did not exist when i switched and there are enough stations around, so i just have an e85 mapping. What i do have since i do my own maps is an AFR gauge. Yes, it varies in winter / summer, but we are talking 1 AFR point variation here, tops. So except when i track the car, i do not care. The only engine i saw detting with e85 had been running 18 AFR the whole day and drifting hard during the championship. The driver saw the gauge but did not care.

As far as ecu tuning goes, this is mandatory after any mod, if people want their engine safe. The fueling vs boost is somewhat self adaptive since it is based on load, as long as the fuel pump and injectors can deliver, and the ECU does not reach the TPmax threshold. But the timing is not, and power increase usually require to pull timing. Not pulling it is what breaks engines.

E85 in itself only allows the ideal timing tune, which no engine can reach with 93 octane, none. But it does not magically appear once e85 is in the tank, it has to be tuned for it.

[hanzbrady]

Originally Posted by R3b

I have a local by me whos on meth with his sr20 coupe. He is pushing 400whp+- says the biggest thing is tuning it for your driving. Has a little bottle in his tunk tucked away, doesnt fill it up often and only sprays when he really gets on it.

I wasn't talking about water-meth on pump gas, I was talking about M1 race fuel. It has a bigger tuning window than E85 and makes just as much power, shits just expensive but every drag car here runs it so it's available.

The other option is C16 but it has a smaller tuning window and doesn't have nearly as cool of a name.