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Old 01-17-2009, 06:31 PM   #61
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before people get all ancy about the rust you should really read the third page of the link i posted. it states

Quote:
If water, or water moisture can enter the "cavity" between the foam and metal, it should able to evapourate out also via natural convection. In the other word, if it can goes in, it can comes out.

2nd, supposely there are not going to have any cavity between the foam and the metal.

And this foam doesn't trap water moisture, or it doesn't absorb water moisture. Its closed cell foam, and absorbsivity was mentioned by Neo.

This is from US composities site, it is not the exact type of foam as Handifoam industry, they share similar construction and mechancial properties, so it should clear up the water absorption concern.
Quote:
This foam has been tested in accodance with US Coast Guard Regulation # 33 CFR 183.114 . This foam is approximately 95-98% closed cell which resists absorbing water, however continuous water submersion can eventually lead to loss of buoyancy over a period of years.


I don't think any of us going to completely submerge our car underwater right? i hope not

2parts foam are good stuff, fun to play with, and pretty tough stuff too.

Our SAE Mini baja team is using 2 parts foam to make floatation device to support the entire car.
clearly the foam doesnt absorve water, there will be no jackets for water to be caught and if their is it will have a way to evaporate.

i also pmmed the guy that did this on his car, he has no problem with it for over 2 years now, he lives in GA...

ill take my chances my s-chassis will survive lol
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Old 01-17-2009, 06:41 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Koopa Troopa View Post


You've just lost all credibility.
Heh, thanks.

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How would there not be any improvements to the car's overall handling and feel by replacing 13 year old worn out bushings with poly or fuck, new OEM bushings?
I didn't say leaving worn 13 year old worn bushings is the solution, I stated polyurethane is not the solution. People buy what they hear advertised or hear from some place they have no idea what lays behind it from a performance stand point.

Polyurethane bushings will cause more binding which will not help an already shity suspension design with too many bushings. It'll make the ride rougher, 'tighter' feeling but rougher and binded like fuck. Amongst many other undesirable conditions. This is beyond most people. There will be little to no articulation. The high sticktion of polyurethane bushings will cause unbelivable harshness. It's pure garbage and marketting ploy and people run down to it for that STIFF FEEL with not knowing fuck about what they are doing.

Just as people go out buying jdm brand coilovers, or taiwanese/chinese coilovers for 'tight' feel, with heavy spring rates, only to realize the ride sucks ass and the job that the dampers are suppose to be doing is not being performed hence the car remaining shitty in grip and just good for drifting.

The car will run shittier, rougher and probably slower with jarring roughness over every irregularity and once again shitty binding that you don't want happening any further..

Either go OEM bushings or spherical bearings.

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S chassis cars are known in Japan to be sucker cars cause they really don't require any talent to drive. Turbo and RWD with MacPhereson strut front and multi link rear. How does a car like that take talent to be fast in?
I think you are mistaken as to what talent is. S chassis cars are not 'easy' to drive compared to an evo or m3 or rx7 fd3s, amongst many other cars with beter chassis and beter suspension designs from the get go. S13s are twitchy cars with poor feel compared to more modern cars such an s2000.

At the limit they are not for the average joe, cause the average joe will assume he is going fast, but will not realize there is more juice left in the car. He will feel out of control with too much nervousness, sensitivity, etc... and not be able to cope with it... being passed by stock evos, gtrs, s2000s, etc... never quite reaching the full potential of a full track prepped 240sx.

That is why cars like an evo or the new skyline gtr are easy to drive and every other average joe can go 'fast' with them, and not get into constantly twitchy situations of a highly prepped 240sx car that is mad fast but not as 'easy' to drive. Watch any serious s chassis car with a GOOD driver and you'll see. Heck even look at the JIC S15 car and how much effort is needed to properly drive that thing, but it beat an evo and set the record on the track. Pretty impressive... but you my friend undoubtedly wouldn't drive one as hard as it was driven.

And drifting is what this car is easy for. Drifting is not high performance driving... it is show, yes it requires skill, but it is show, not road racing, competitive, timed racing where cars are put head to head to see which is the fastest.. not which is the prettiest.

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I've run down Skyline GTSTs in my 550 Alto Works and I've run down Type R RA WRX Imprezas in my Civic. Doesn't mean anything. Dudes prolly let off.
Wow good for you. I can run down alot of people in both of my family cars, give yourself a tap on your back.
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Old 01-17-2009, 07:14 PM   #63
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FYI: so you don't rip on me any further as if i don't know what I'm talking about and lose 'any credibility' left... here's some people who know what they're talking about when it comes to real high performance tuning and not jdm drifting common-sense methodology that most s chassis owners are used to in general:

ELEPHANT RACING Tech Topic, Polyurethane Bushings and Friction

http://www.elephantracing.com/techtopic/binding.htm

http://www.elephantracing.com/techto...eformation.htm

I went from polyurethane whiteline bushings to spherical bearings. Every arm and uprights fyi. It's a world of difference, performance-wise and harshness wise. I would NEVER recommend polyurethane for anybody, especially on our cars which come with so many stupid bushings.

It's also a misconception that a stiffer CHASSIS is going to result in a harsher ride. It's quite the opposite actually, increasing the natural frequency of the chassis will result in less creaks, noises, cracks and harshness overall... allowing you to run higher spring rates equivalently not giving as much harshness, creaks, cracks, etc... It's exceedingly high spring rates amongst many other things on light cars like ours or pretzle stiff chassis's that cause undesirable harshness and actually undermine overall performance... A stronger stiffer chassis will improve overall feel, responsivness and decrease harshness, creaks, etc... amongst many other benefits... allowing the dampers and the suspension to do it's job better.

As most would say it's impossible to make a chassis too stiff. Maybe the suspension oh yes, but not the chassis. We WANT the chassis to be stiff in a performance car especially... the reason most cars have crumble zones etc... is because of safety not performance!

http://sportcompactcar.automotive.co...t-5/index.html

There's a part on foam filling right there and guess what it talks about!
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Old 01-18-2009, 12:15 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo2nr View Post
before people get all ancy about the rust you should really read the third page of the link i posted. it states



clearly the foam doesnt absorve water, there will be no jackets for water to be caught and if their is it will have a way to evaporate.

i also pmmed the guy that did this on his car, he has no problem with it for over 2 years now, he lives in GA...

ill take my chances my s-chassis will survive lol
Usually I wouldnt invoice the truth, however you have an S14.

Bye bye car if you DARE use the foam. Next winter blocks of sheetmetal will be flaking off like dandruff.

The guy is in GA not NY!

And about poly;

It depends on which bushings. The FLCA bushings should use Poly, since they only really need to move on 1 axis. If those are binding then your Strut rods are binding as well, which means your FLCA ball joint is gone.

Sway bar bushings, endlinks, and any other arm that only moves in 1 axis is totally fine.
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Old 01-18-2009, 01:20 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xs240 View Post
Heh, thanks.

I didn't say leaving worn 13 year old worn bushings is the solution, I stated polyurethane is not the solution. People buy what they hear advertised or hear from some place they have no idea what lays behind it from a performance stand point.
Funny, as the "articles" you linked were just ads to make you want to buy their PolyBronze bushings.

Quote:
Polyurethane bushings will cause more binding which will not help an already shity suspension design with too many bushings. It'll make the ride rougher, 'tighter' feeling but rougher and binded like fuck. Amongst many other undesirable conditions. This is beyond most people. There will be little to no articulation. The high sticktion of polyurethane bushings will cause unbelivable harshness. It's pure garbage and marketting ploy and people run down to it for that STIFF FEEL with not knowing fuck about what they are doing.

Just as people go out buying jdm brand coilovers, or taiwanese/chinese coilovers for 'tight' feel, with heavy spring rates, only to realize the ride sucks ass and the job that the dampers are suppose to be doing is not being performed hence the car remaining shitty in grip and just good for drifting.
I have JDM brand coilovers and Suspension Techniques poly bushings. I am not experiencing "unbelievable" harshness, squeaks or bindings you would have me believe to be occurring. My dampers are great feeling and do not have inadequate valving for the spring rates.

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I think you are mistaken as to what talent is. S chassis cars are not 'easy' to drive compared to an evo or m3 or rx7 fd3s, amongst many other cars with beter chassis and beter suspension designs from the get go. S13s are twitchy cars with poor feel compared to more modern cars such an s2000.

At the limit they are not for the average joe, cause the average joe will assume he is going fast, but will not realize there is more juice left in the car. He will feel out of control with too much nervousness, sensitivity, etc... and not be able to cope with it... being passed by stock evos, gtrs, s2000s, etc... never quite reaching the full potential of a full track prepped 240sx.
I'd hope the average Joe was getting passed by stock Evos, GTRs and S2ks. Not to mention the reasons of those cars being faster on the track is they were designed for that. The (R)S13s were not and major improvements weren't made till the S15 however the S14 chassis is lightyears ahead of the (R)S13s

Quote:
That is why cars like an evo or the new skyline gtr are easy to drive and every other average joe can go 'fast' with them, and not get into constantly twitchy situations of a highly prepped 240sx car that is mad fast but not as 'easy' to drive. Watch any serious s chassis car with a GOOD driver and you'll see. Heck even look at the JIC S15 car and how much effort is needed to properly drive that thing, but it beat an evo and set the record on the track. Pretty impressive... but you my friend undoubtedly wouldn't drive one as hard as it was driven.
No, cars like the EVO and new Skyline GTR are easy to drive because they have electronic aids and AWD.

Quote:
And drifting is what this car is easy for. Drifting is not high performance driving... it is show, yes it requires skill, but it is show, not road racing, competitive, timed racing where cars are put head to head to see which is the fastest.. not which is the prettiest.
I'm not into drifting however you're an ignorant jackass if you say it's not high performance driving. Gymkhana, a timed, competitive race where drivers are pretty much required to negotiate the course via controlled oversteer.

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Wow good for you. I can run down alot of people in both of my family cars, give yourself a tap on your back.
Why would you boast your friend's accomplishments and then shoot mine down? Guess my driving doesn't count since it wasn't done at the race track. I'm sorry. I don't know shit about nothing nor do I know how to drive a car since I don't drive on race tracks. Get over yourself and off Racepar1's nuts.
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Old 01-18-2009, 01:12 PM   #66
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Old 01-18-2009, 08:22 PM   #67
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Damn, this place is to hostile.

If you are getting moisture in your rocker panels or frame rails you will rust whether you have foam in there or not. I would(and plan to) stitch weld the chassis, ensure that the rockers and frame rails are sealed, then foam it.If you want to go over board with it you could shoot some paint in there too.

I would also go for a road racing style(versus a roll bar or drag cage) cage as well.
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Old 01-18-2009, 10:10 PM   #68
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it's impossible to make a chassis too stiff. Maybe the suspension oh yes, but not the chassis. We WANT the chassis to be stiff in a performance car especially... the reason most cars have crumble zones etc... is because of safety not performance!!
I have to say, this was well put.
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Old 01-18-2009, 10:17 PM   #69
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Damn, this place is to hostile.

If you are getting moisture in your rocker panels or frame rails you will rust whether you have foam in there or not. I would(and plan to) stitch weld the chassis, ensure that the rockers and frame rails are sealed, then foam it.If you want to go over board with it you could shoot some paint in there too.

I would also go for a road racing style(versus a roll bar or drag cage) cage as well.

This locks in moisture.

The rockers should not be filled.
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Old 01-19-2009, 07:22 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Bigsyke View Post
And about poly;

It depends on which bushings. The FLCA bushings should use Poly, since they only really need to move on 1 axis. If those are binding then your Strut rods are binding as well, which means your FLCA ball joint is gone.

Sway bar bushings, endlinks, and any other arm that only moves in 1 axis is totally fine.
It does not move in just 1 axis.

On the 240s, the FLCA is also attached to the T/C rods, which are a fixed length whether you have adjustable or stock style ones. When the suspension compresses, the T/C rod will move along with the FLCA to control caster.

If your car is low, your FLCA will probably be pointed up, and by that point, when the suspension compresses, the T/C arm will swing up with the FLCA, which causes more positive caster as it moves up.

That translates to the FLCA moving forward as it's going up. That isn't 1 axis anymore, that's 2.

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This locks in moisture.

The rockers should not be filled.
Your logic makes no sense.

If rocker panels aren't supposed to be filled in and they still rust, what is the matter with filling them in with CLOSED CELL FOAM that isn't supposed to trap moisture?

Even if it did get some moisture in there, the moisture will just evaporate like it would normally do in a non-foamed panel.

This isn't your every day foam, this stuff was designed as a structural foam that will expand and not bubble up, and when it hardens it becomes like cement. It is not like a sponge.
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Old 01-19-2009, 01:58 PM   #71
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It does not move in just 1 axis.

On the 240s, the FLCA is also attached to the T/C rods, which are a fixed length whether you have adjustable or stock style ones. When the suspension compresses, the T/C rod will move along with the FLCA to control caster.

If your car is low, your FLCA will probably be pointed up, and by that point, when the suspension compresses, the T/C arm will swing up with the FLCA, which causes more positive caster as it moves up.

That translates to the FLCA moving forward as it's going up. That isn't 1 axis anymore, that's 2.



Your logic makes no sense.

If rocker panels aren't supposed to be filled in and they still rust, what is the matter with filling them in with CLOSED CELL FOAM that isn't supposed to trap moisture?

Even if it did get some moisture in there, the moisture will just evaporate like it would normally do in a non-foamed panel.

This isn't your every day foam, this stuff was designed as a structural foam that will expand and not bubble up, and when it hardens it becomes like cement. It is not like a sponge.

The FLCA bushing doesnt move enough to cause a binding issue, unless something else is wrong.

Let me guess, you dont have the pleasure of dealing with salt/snow? It doesnt just contact a line of sight, it soaks into every crease and seam. Plus the only way to keep the moisure out of the rails is to completely seal them up. Do you have any idea what it would take to completely seal them? You would have to start by welding them shut in the engine bay; weld the seams all the way down, because they are spot welded.

The foam will block moisture and salt, but the rust will just eat around it, and the foam acts like a guide, moving under layers of metal like sheetrock. The OP is in NY, he is better off leaving the rails empty so he can use a nozzle to wash the rockers from time to time.


I foamed my civic, it was a 1996 civic sedan EX, stripped. 0 rust on the body untill I foamed it. After 1 winter the car fell apart with rust. and I plugged every hole possible with rubber plugs from ace hardware.

I also used rubberized 3m underspray, which made matters worse
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Old 01-19-2009, 02:01 PM   #72
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I'm totally into tower bars and cages.
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Old 01-19-2009, 02:17 PM   #73
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so is the foam going to act like a catalyst causing the car to rust rapidly?

or will this happen naturally?

because i had this car for 3yrs now driven in salt and b.s. and i have no signs of rusting...

Bigsyke - what state do you live in? and what foam did you use?
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Old 01-19-2009, 02:31 PM   #74
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Like I said in my post, totally seal the rockers. The rubberized coating and plugs is probably what your problem was.

Here is what I would do in a perfect world where money and time aren't obstacles.

1. Open up rockers/frame rails and coat with weld through primer.

2. Weld them back up and cover seams with some kind of caulking.

3. In a hot/dry place shoot the foam. Seal up the hole for the foam.

Obviously you want to car on a rack to have the rails cut open.
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Old 01-19-2009, 02:39 PM   #75
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So... read through this entire thread and this is the most helpful thing I can come up with:

Everyone is telling you that the Megan's aren't the best, but no one is really saying why. Here's the scoop... the valving on the Megan's are stupid. There's very little difference between full soft and full stiff. Regardless of how soft you go, it's still going to be a harsh ride, period.

What you're describing sounds like you want your car to be more responsive and predictable. Kind of like what I was striving for... for my car to handle like my BMW... predictable, sport suspension that's not harsh on the street. The fact is, they don't really make anything quite like this for our cars. We have to get inventive...what's out there either robs us of suspension travel, or the spring rates are too high... etc.

My suggestion is to get rid of the coilovers you have, since they're too stiff and rattling your suspension to peices. Get a set of KYB AGX's and through some Swift springs on there... Replace worn bushings with OEM replacements... they're still noticably different, and offer enough flex for the road. If you want to spend more cash, maybe get a front sway bar (stiffer in the front, softer in the rear). You'll likely break even if not gain by selling your MRs and buying new stuff.

I'm not even going to go into the foam stuff. That's not way beyond my comprehension, and nothing I'd even consider... But when it comes to my car and racing (road race, not drift), money is not an issue. My life > Cash
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Old 01-19-2009, 02:46 PM   #76
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no my car is very responsive, it just flexes alot over bumps un even surfaces ect. i want to car to feel more solid and in tack. not flimsy and weak..

i had gf210 and agx and i went to MR night and day difference i like then 100x more.. i have sway bars and ply bushings in front.

my problem isnt a weak handling car i just want it to feel more soild and less shakey. i guess i dont want it to feel like a 12yr old car.. thats why im looking in to reinforcement.
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Old 01-19-2009, 02:53 PM   #77
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Im in the northern midwest.

I used some 2lb closed cell foam, didnt do much - dry rotted after 2 years.
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Old 01-19-2009, 02:54 PM   #78
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i rock RSR sports i coils. they are a good combination of stiff and streetable. i daily drive mine and take it to auto X courses.
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Old 01-19-2009, 03:04 PM   #79
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I don't have problems with Megan tracks and I was at the track with them yesterday and yes I do feel the difference in dampening within 2 clicks.... Don't compare coilovers on the street because you are not using the coils in an environment where you can tell except your ass dyno which doesn't do any suspension justice.... and no its not my first trackday and not its not my first AutoX event and yes I touge, yes its daily driven, no I am not a professional racer, but I would like to be and working on my driving skills to do so.

You know what, take your car to the track and learn more about your car instead of reading everything on the internet.... then figure out what you want... Foaming bla bla bla everything here mentioned is people who have a preference to how their cars feel and they are giving a suggestion of what their car is to them. Not every car off the line is made the same nor have had the same history as your car. 13 Years of history makes every 240sx unique no on knows what you are experiencing, they are just describing something about their cars. Stiff is not always good....

If you don't want your car to feel like 13 yrs old.... guess what, buy a new one.... Welds, Frame, Metal Fatigue, nothing in the world you can do. Period.... Got money then? Full restore.... Strip it down to frame and rebuild the whole thing piece by piece.... Nothing you can do about it get over it.
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Old 01-20-2009, 07:09 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Bigsyke View Post
Im in the northern midwest.

I used some 2lb closed cell foam, didnt do much - dry rotted after 2 years.
gunluvs14 used 8lb closed cell foam in his rockers.

Not sure if he ever got around to it, but he was telling me to do the pillars with the 2lb foam.

If I have time I'll look up the difference between the 2 foams, pretty sure there's a slight bit of difference, maybe even the "make or break" type difference.
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