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Old 12-14-2014, 01:25 PM   #31
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Do the Miata guys have good luck with these?
http://www.bellengineering.net/produ...roducts_id=642
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Old 12-14-2014, 01:49 PM   #32
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I spent about an hour porting the turbine housing this morning. Here are 2 before and after shots (see attached).

Even though no one on Zilvia has commented on running into boost creep issues, I said fuck it and gave it a whirl. I gasket matched the flange and also ran it on my bench sander. Not machinist-grade but good enough for me. Ran it along a straight-edge with light shining behind it and it looks good to me. I will use either Copper RTV or wheel bearing grease to seal.

S14DB, I saw those studs and hey... real cool. Not $140 cool though. My next quest is to locate OEM M10x1.25 hardware. KoukiMonsta, I have acquired numerous PNs for various turbo cars (R32/33/34, Z32, FD3S, Supra) and will look into the offerings this week.

Jacob, I have thought about welding the turbo to manifold but it just doesnt seem legit. You see, I purchased my TIG machine about 5-6 years ago and since then, have been climbing the learning curve. Cast iron seems to be one of this 50-50 shot materials when it comes to welding and typically requires pre-heat. I dont claim to be an expert, but I watch enough of Jody's videos (WeldingTips&Tricks) and have read a few books, and I just dont feel like experimenting with this turbo/manifold. Moreso because the turbine outlet housing was ALSO one of the segments that loosened itself over time - and I ran a fully connected exhaust system including transmission exhaust mount.

Remember, we're not the only people discussing this topic. I even ran into one of your posts yesterday dating back to 2009 on the BMW forums:
http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...-gaskets/page2

Looking at the R35 GTR, you can see why they decided to integrate the turbos with the exhaust manifold.
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Old 12-14-2014, 05:56 PM   #33
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And OEM hardware worked fine for me with occasional replacement/refresh until I was basically at the DE instructor level. Then the hardware was not holding up more than a couple of days.


The manifold is also NOT cast iron. It's high nickel cast steel. It welds great. I'm telling you, I've done it. It welds fine with a plain old MIG. Even better if you want to go with some higher nickel rod and TIG it like 309 or 316 (there's probably even a better SS rod, but those are what I've used before, work fine).

I think this is a thumbnail to show the turbine housing way back when I did it with just a MIG. Nothing fancy, and I kinda sucked with hand movement back then (probably still do, but whatever, it's held for THOUSANDS of track miles).

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Old 12-14-2014, 06:01 PM   #34
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BTW - on the turbine outlet, nordlock washers will work. I prefer to just use bolts so that the studs can't come out as well. So 316SS bolts + nordlock washer.

The nordlocks won't work on the turbine inlet, too hot.
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Old 12-14-2014, 07:41 PM   #35
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Since we are on topic. If I am using OEM gaskets, studs, and nuts; what am I uaing for washers? A question of standard vs. lock washer is what I am getting at. I do love oem p/n's too.

But I am looking for all the info on replicating oem setup, as realisticaly it is enough for me...for now.
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Old 12-14-2014, 10:57 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Def View Post
The manifold is also NOT cast iron. It's high nickel cast steel. It welds great. I'm telling you, I've done it.
Dont get fancy with me Def, lets not get hung on metallurgy. :-)
Regardless what the manifold is cast from, to me.. welding is a last ditch effort.

How many people here would be happy with a fully welded setup? I dont think its that bad, but I dont think its that good either. Besides, OEM manifolds are a dime a dozen.

Still, today I took a shot and without any special tools, I used my 1960s-era Craftsman drill press and cross vise, drilled & tapped the manifold to M10x1.25. I also drilled the turbine's flange and enlarged the 4 mounting holes to 10mm. So far, it appears that everything lines up. All I can say is that the larger hardware looks bitching and I am going to put money down that this shit will hold.

With that said, I am on the hunt for two things:

- M10x1.25 turbo studs
- turbo locking clips w/ 10mm bolt holes

I found this NISSAN PN, not sure if its proper (08267-03210) but I will know more this week. As for the locking clips, I could always enlarge the current T2 clips but I would prefer having the proper ones (if they exist).

If anyone has PNs for any of the above items, PLEASE contribute and post in this thread.

Thank you


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A question of standard vs. lock washer is what I am getting at. I do love oem p/n's too.
I dont think any turbo setup has used washers (or spacers) on the turbo to manifold bolts, only the locking clips. I am wondering however, if anyone has looked into adding those exhaust spacer things to the turbo hardware, in order to keep heat away from the nuts. Here is an example if you dont know what I am talking about:

http://www.frsport.com/Nissan-14037-...ET_p_8078.html
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Old 12-15-2014, 08:32 AM   #37
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I've never had an issue with oem gaskets for my turbo. I always used the multi layered one and oem locking tabs. A little bit of thread locker doesn't hurt either.

I just ordered my new manifold with a v-band flange, so I don't have to worry about gaskets and what not. Should make my life a lot easier.
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Old 12-15-2014, 08:44 AM   #38
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If you are looking for the 10mm bolts/studs, if my memory serves me, all Garrett T3s (and most T3s) use the 10x1.25mm hardware, so you can source the hardware for those turbos and be fine.
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Old 12-15-2014, 10:30 AM   #39
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Solid motor mounts, exhaust solid mounted, turbo mig welded to the oem manifold, o2 welded to the turbo. Been working perfectly for 2 years now. Never have to worry about blown gaskets again.

However, most people have problems due to not running a flex pipe between the o2 housing or downpipe and the rest of the exhaust system. All the flex on stock or poly mounts will blow out the gaskets quickly.
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Old 12-15-2014, 10:47 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramonesfreak2010 View Post
I've never had an issue with oem gaskets for my turbo. I always used the multi layered one and oem locking tabs. A little bit of thread locker doesn't hurt either.

I just ordered my new manifold with a v-band flange, so I don't have to worry about gaskets and what not. Should make my life a lot easier.
Thread locker is worthless at these temps. V-Band is cool, but not for us stock manifold users.

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My word, What are your EGT's at to make your Nuts and bolts fail?
WOT on the track, as mentioned before, not your average spirited street driving. Curious as to what temps (actual values) it takes to start stretching the OE studs - as seen in that clip from the miata.

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However, most people have problems due to not running a flex pipe between the o2 housing or downpipe and the rest of the exhaust system. All the flex on stock or poly mounts will blow out the gaskets quickly.
This is another good point. We are discussing one issue, but there are other factors that lead to (premature)failure of said gasket. I feel this one is a big contributor.

I am going to fab up a DP with similar idea to that of the PBM. Cut the flanges from my DP and turbo elbow and weld in a flex section. less places to leak, and added benefit of flex section. win-win, right?
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Old 12-15-2014, 11:28 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Ramonesfreak2010 View Post
I've never had an issue with oem gaskets for my turbo. I always used the multi layered one and oem locking tabs. A little bit of thread locker doesn't hurt either.
I just ordered my new manifold with a v-band flange, so I don't have to worry about gaskets and what not. Should make my life a lot easier.
Relax, green horn. This is for the experienced. No offense but at 22, a lot of things on my car that I thought were proper did not fail until later. And v-band does not apply to people who, like me, continue to want to run a stock cast (iron, ahem... high nickel steel) manifold.

As for the flex pipe, it cant hurt but, I think the main reason the studs stretch and fail is due to overloading the m8 hardware.


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If you are looking for the 10mm bolts/studs, if my memory serves me, all Garrett T3s (and most T3s) use the 10x1.25mm hardware, so you can source the hardware for those turbos and be fine.
Yes, I am looking into that. I have a crap load of part numbers for various studs used on Supras and what not, so the stud should be easy to find. The other issue is the OEM locking tab. I dont think an OEM locking tab exists that has the same bolt orientation BUT with 10mm holes. No biggie, I could always enlarge them. I'm just saying, if something already exists that would be nice. I doubt it though. T3 stuff should be larger, obviously.
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Old 12-15-2014, 11:38 AM   #42
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Dont get fancy with me Def, lets not get hung on metallurgy. :-)
Regardless what the manifold is cast from, to me.. welding is a last ditch effort.

How many people here would be happy with a fully welded setup? I dont think its that bad, but I dont think its that good either. Besides, OEM manifolds are a dime a dozen.

Still, today I took a shot and without any special tools, I used my 1960s-era Craftsman drill press and cross vise, drilled & tapped the manifold to M10x1.25. I also drilled the turbine's flange and enlarged the 4 mounting holes to 10mm. So far, it appears that everything lines up. All I can say is that the larger hardware looks bitching and I am going to put money down that this shit will hold.

With that said, I am on the hunt for two things:

- M10x1.25 turbo studs
- turbo locking clips w/ 10mm bolt holes

I found this NISSAN PN, not sure if its proper (08267-03210) but I will know more this week. As for the locking clips, I could always enlarge the current T2 clips but I would prefer having the proper ones (if they exist).

If anyone has PNs for any of the above items, PLEASE contribute and post in this thread.

Thank you




I dont think any turbo setup has used washers (or spacers) on the turbo to manifold bolts, only the locking clips. I am wondering however, if anyone has looked into adding those exhaust spacer things to the turbo hardware, in order to keep heat away from the nuts. Here is an example if you dont know what I am talking about:

http://www.frsport.com/Nissan-14037-...ET_p_8078.html
Should have tapped the manifold to M10x1.5 and used these:

http://www.full-race.com/store/turbo...dware-kit.html

The different thread pitch helps keep stuff together. Maybe you could flip them around and use some M10x1.5 mm Stage 8 nuts?


Given that you're using a stock manifold, I still think it's silly to be such a vag about welding the damn thing together. At least you're going about it the smart way and stepping up to M10 stuff, but when going to the track and putting up $$$ just to drive, sometimes it's smarter just to hit the easy button.
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Old 12-15-2014, 03:25 PM   #43
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If you are looking for the 10mm bolts/studs, if my memory serves me, all Garrett T3s (and most T3s) use the 10x1.25mm hardware, so you can source the hardware for those turbos and be fine.
10x1.5 in the manifold and 10x1.25 on the turbo side.
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Old 12-15-2014, 06:35 PM   #44
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Has anyone ever used AN lines for the turbo drain tubes? if so what sizes did you use?
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Old 12-15-2014, 06:58 PM   #45
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Has anyone ever used AN lines for the turbo drain tubes? if so what sizes did you use?
negative, that has never been done. cool idea though - you should do it and be the first!

DEF, interesting point that the different thread pitches will help. It seems to make sense..is this something with data/testing/proof backing it?

I can understand not welding the turbine housing, for resale purposes especially. In that I may change my mind on which turbo I want blah blah...

But guys, that cast high nickel bullshit can't be easy to weld..? Your telling me I can MIG it (with my 220v machine), a nice chamfer?, and what about pre-heat?
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Old 12-16-2014, 09:11 AM   #46
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Yes, people have run AN fittings for the drain tube.

Tapping 1.5 instead of 1.25 isnt a bad idea. I dont think its a big deal as I should have no problem acquiring 1.25 studs and I dont plan on removing turbos daily.

I have two manifolds I am monkeying with at the moment, three technically. One is a standard S13 SR20DET manifold. The other is a newer S14/S15 manifold with the EGR port. I plan on cutting the EGR port off and welding a EGT provision there OR somewhere else on the manifold. Either way, I will see how well this manifold welds (or doesnt).

The other manifold I have is for the Miata project and is made of cast iron:
http://www.bellengineering.net/produ...products_id=33

* Notice that the BEGI manifolds are pre-drilled to use 10mm fasteners.

I bought that used a long time ago and am finally putting it to use. It has an EGR provision TIG welded on there. It was welded and never cracked, so I will give that a go as well. I am going to cut off the EGR provision and weld it shut as opposed to just capping it.

Lets switch gears for a moment. How many people are running EGT sensors in their OEM exhaust manifolds? Anyone have any photos? I am curious to what locations people have used.

Also noticed that my S15 manifold has a small hairline crack in the divider, seems to be all too common.
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Old 12-16-2014, 10:04 AM   #47
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But guys, that cast high nickel bullshit can't be easy to weld..? Your telling me I can MIG it (with my 220v machine), a nice chamfer?, and what about pre-heat?

I had some random guy mig mine together, didn't even take the gasket out of it. It's been holding up for years with no prep work other than cleaning it with brake cleaner before welding.
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Old 12-16-2014, 10:10 AM   #48
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I had some random guy mig mine together, didn't even take the gasket out of it. It's been holding up for years with no prep work other than cleaning it with brake cleaner before welding.
Random guy, lol. This brings up something else I have thought about viewing photos of them welded. If you weld around the 'rectangular' perimeter, does this not leave the bolt holes as a place for leakage?

Mike, based on a discussion I recently had with CodyAce (who handles a lot of OEM manifolds due to his gig welding EWG flanges) essentially, they all crack in that divider/collector in time. But he hasn't seen any let go and destroy a turbo, including extrude honed ones which are significantly thinner in there.
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Old 12-16-2014, 10:42 AM   #49
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I use method 1, OEM hardware + locking tabs. I had a manifold>turbo gasket failure last year, replaced all hardware and the tabs with new OEM pieces, I spent a good deal of time making sure the locking tabs were hammered down securely around the nuts before reinstallation.

I had a suspicion that exhaust vibrations might have caused my bolts to back out, so along with this new hardware, I had a 6" flex section welded into my downpipe (previously had no flex sections at all). I know time is the true test here, but things are great so far, it's been 1 year already, no issues.
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Old 12-16-2014, 12:12 PM   #50
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Random guy as in, the first guy I came across with a mig welder that would weld two car parts together for me.
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Old 12-16-2014, 12:19 PM   #51
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Old 12-16-2014, 01:53 PM   #52
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We use OEM Hardware on all of our cars, there are Z32 guys out there running 800+ WHP on their cars using OE Locking tabs and OE hardware with no problems. for the guys using T3 Flanged turbos you'll want to use the Z31 / RB25 locking tabs. unfortunately for the guys using T4's you'll be stuck having to use copper hardware safety wired.

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Old 12-16-2014, 02:00 PM   #53
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It's not the power level, it's the use.

Track days especially seem to cause the most problems. That's where mine started coming apart after 2 years on stock tabs/hardware being totally fine for autox.
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Old 12-16-2014, 02:37 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by e1_griego View Post
It's not the power level, it's the use.

Track days especially seem to cause the most problems. That's where mine started coming apart after 2 years on stock tabs/hardware being totally fine for autox.
Nissan calls for new hardware after it's been heat cycled and torqued. so that is more than likely why you guys are having a problem with the hardware backing out. I understand the track miles cause additional stress on every component. on an area like this you normally wouldn't re use the gaskets, or head bolts so what makes the turbo hardware different? try using all new OEM Nissan Studs, nuts, locking tabs and chase the threads on the turbo and manifold before you install new hardware. it is very unlikely you'll experience premature failure if you do so.

-Juan
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Old 12-16-2014, 02:42 PM   #55
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Any hardware no matter how strong it is, or how strong its supported is going to break/come loose with the REPEATED abuse on track.

Think of it this way, if a professional athlete exrunner), runs 25miles in one day he should be fine, All his muscles and bones should take that consistent abuse. But... When he tries to run 75 or 100 miles, his body will start to fall apart mostly muscle here.

So I hope you understand what I'm trying to say with this example.
No matter how good your hardware is, if you beat on it hard at the track it will evently fall apart, nothing will last forever. But you can certainly increase the life a bit more.
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Old 12-16-2014, 02:59 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Scott@FontanaNissan View Post
Nissan calls for new hardware after it's been heat cycled and torqued.
-Juan
What? Can you elaborate on this?

I have also thought about chasing the manifold threads a few times now. This is common practice for me in many places. But in a location where studs are known to back out..is it really a good idea to create a situation in which they can rotate more easily?
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Old 12-16-2014, 03:31 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott@FontanaNissan View Post
Nissan calls for new hardware after it's been heat cycled and torqued. try using all new OEM Nissan Studs, nuts, locking tabs and chase the threads on the turbo and manifold before you install new hardware. it is very unlikely you'll experience premature failure if you do so.
hey come on juan, this is starting to sound like a solicitation. I dont mind supporting companies (NISSAN included) but I'm also not a fool. Why not change our wheel studs every track event too. I mean, thats what made me start this thread. All this bullshit about 8mm fasteners. If all the wheel studs in the industry were M8, wheels would be flying off left and right. Standard steel M12 fasteners = no problems.

I ordered some M10 studs from Toyota, they'll be here tomorrow. $1.61 per fastener. No way I am paying 40-140 for 4 studs, thats for sure. Inconel, Monel, or Unicorn.. no thanks.
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Old 12-16-2014, 03:59 PM   #58
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SR/KA/whatever Nissan exhaust manifold studs (the ones that connect the manifold to the head) are M10x1.25. Or are those not made from the desirable materials?

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Old 12-16-2014, 04:11 PM   #59
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^ those MAY be a little on the long side. Curious if you thought of those as an option Mike?

As I previusuly said, I don't think any OE Nissan stuff is inconel. I believe it to be stainless based on my research.
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Old 12-16-2014, 04:40 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dboyizmlg View Post
Any hardware no matter how strong it is, or how strong its supported is going to break/come loose with the REPEATED abuse on track.

Think of it this way, if a professional athlete exrunner), runs 25miles in one day he should be fine, All his muscles and bones should take that consistent abuse. But... When he tries to run 75 or 100 miles, his body will start to fall apart mostly muscle here.

So I hope you understand what I'm trying to say with this example.
No matter how good your hardware is, if you beat on it hard at the track it will evently fall apart, nothing will last forever. But you can certainly increase the life a bit more.
I understand this completely, and I agree. this is the same reason why Nissan forces us to replace the hardware on all exhaust components whenever we warranty or do any repairs involving exhaust components. the amount of heat, vibration , weight and stress really puts a toll on the hardware. this is also why when say for example you remove your 10+ year old exhaust manifold half the time if you don't replace the studs and you attempt to re-torque it to factory specs you'll snap the studs or ruin them the next time you attempt to take them off.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KoukiMonsta View Post
What? Can you elaborate on this?

I have also thought about chasing the manifold threads a few times now. This is common practice for me in many places. But in a location where studs are known to back out..is it really a good idea to create a situation in which they can rotate more easily?
It's standard practice for us. Whenever we remove downpipes on GT-R's Headers or Cat's on Z cars, Titans, Exterras, Juke's etc. basically any time we do anything with the catalytic converters, exhaust manifolds, downpipes or turbos we replace the hardware with all new units as well. My Personal Z32 has 155K on the original block. I've never suffered a blown turbo gasket, downpipe gasket, or manifold gasket since my turbo upgrade (at 80K)

The reason you want the area to be clean is so that when you torque the hardware the torque is distributed evenly through the threads. dirty threads = uneven torque = loose hardware
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