Car starts sometimes and then wont start again - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

Ichiban4 · 06-20-2012, 01:16 PM

**UPDATE** PLEASE SKIP TO BOTTOM

This is for my brother's 96 s14 ka24de

Starts up usually after sitting an hour or so or completely cold, but sometimes you have to crank it a little or let off and crank it again.

If the car was JUST running and you turn it off and try to start it, it wont start. It turns over fine it isn't a power issue or anything.

Sounds like a coolant temp sensor issue right? Well it was replaced a few years ago because it was bad. I tested it out with a multimeter and it was getting proper voltage and ohms based on the temperature stated in the FSM.

Are there any other sensors or things that could cause this?

When they car is running it runs perfectly fine too by the way.

Thanks for readiing

KiLLeR2001 · 06-20-2012, 01:25 PM

Run the car until it gets to normal operating temp. Turn car off, and check the resistance (ohms) on the coolant temp sensor.

If that checks out fine you'll want to start the basic process of checking for fuel, spark and compression.

Ichiban4 · 06-20-2012, 01:40 PM

Yea that's what I did, I was getting like .3ish which is about normal according to the fsm

Ichiban4 · 06-23-2012, 03:06 PM

UPDATE

Car will not start at all today. Pulled the fuel rail and found out the injectors are not spraying any fuel. I pulled the line from the fuel filter and turn on the pump and got a good flow so the pump is working fine. What could cause them not to spray then?

Seems like they went from working sometimes to not at all, and its not the injector itself because all 4 don't spray.

Some type of electrical sensor or something?

KiLLeR2001 · 06-23-2012, 04:44 PM

Possibly faulty distributor. Are you getting any spark?

edit: Oops this is a KA not an SR.

Ichiban4 · 06-23-2012, 04:59 PM

Yup spark is ok, just no fuel. Pump is working though but it just isnt coming out of the injectors.

Ichiban4 · 06-23-2012, 06:01 PM

Just spark was fine yesterday when the car ran, today it won't start at all so just pulled the plugs again and cranked it and no spark whatsoever.

intel5811 · 06-25-2012, 11:45 AM

Might help or not but worth a try... Beside the s13 I have a eclipse which was the doing the exact same thing I mean to the T. Well to not drag this it turned out to be the cam sensor. That was not reading after it reach a certain temp but would work when cold. Hope it helps.

qwerth · 06-25-2012, 12:14 PM

mine has been doing the same exact thing, until last week it didn't start at all

i replaced the starter, fixed my problem

Sileighty_85 · 06-25-2012, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwerth

mine has been doing the same exact thing, until last week it didn't start at all

i replaced the starter, fixed my problem

That makes no sense....

What does a starter have to do with your engine not having spark or fuel?

qwerth · 06-25-2012, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sileighty_85

That makes no sense....

What does a starter have to do with your engine not having spark or fuel?

I'm saying that was MY problem maybe it would help, i turn key sometimes it would start sometimes it wouldn't i replaced my starter and it fixed MY problem.

Sileighty_85 · 06-25-2012, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwerth

I'm saying that was MY problem maybe it would help, i turn key sometimes it would start sometimes it wouldn't i replaced my starter and it fixed MY problem.

No it wont help cuz if you read you would see that he says

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichiban4

If the car was JUST running and you turn it off and try to start it, it wont start. It turns over fine it isn't a power issue or anything.

So its clearly a Fuel/Ign timing component

1on1 · 06-25-2012, 01:08 PM

I hope your brother didn't pour NOS in his gas tank...

However, try changing the fuel filter and check the resistance for each injector. You should also check the spark plug wires/cap/rotor. If there's crud on the cap and rotor, you can try and sand the connectors.

slider2828 · 06-25-2012, 04:05 PM

Injectors work on ground signal from the ECU....

Check all your grounds, check voltage to injector (I am guessing its 0), check fuses....

Is your harness good?

Swap ECU's.

ka4life87 · 06-26-2012, 11:54 AM

I put my money on bad dizzy

Ichiban4 · 07-12-2012, 12:32 PM

UPDATE

Car still isn't running -_-

We swapped the distributor for one we bought on here from a guy who said it was working fine and it still wont start. I pulled a plug and cranked the car touching the threaded part of the plug to a grounded bolt on the chassis and no spark whatsoever. ALL wires going to the dizzy are getting proper voltage and resistance so I don't think there is a short anywhere.

Pretty sure we are getting fuel because the plugs smell of gas after trying to start it and after disconnecting the hose after the fuel filter there was a steady flow of gas when turning the car on. We are getting power to the injectors as well.

Would a bad ecu still allow for all the components to get power? I pulled it and check all the connections everything seems fine and I had good continuity between my components and ecu, I checked everything according to the FSM.

Any other thoughts please people that could cause no spark?

No NOS in the gas tank lol..

****qwerth****

Car is turning over when we crank it, did yours still turn over? The starter does seam like its making a winding type noise, doesn't sound normal. I always thought when a starter was bad it just clicked though?

slider2828 · 07-12-2012, 03:20 PM

Still sounds like a grounding issue to me if you get no spark during crank....

Make sure you have all the grounds connected properly. There should be 5 grounds? Maybe someone with more KA experience can point out where the grounds are.....

PowerDrifter · 07-12-2012, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichiban4

UPDATE

Car still isn't running -_-

We swapped the distributor for one we bought on here from a guy who said it was working fine and it still wont start. I pulled a plug and cranked the car touching the threaded part of the plug to a grounded bolt on the chassis and no spark whatsoever. ALL wires going to the dizzy are getting proper voltage and resistance so I don't think there is a short anywhere.

Pretty sure we are getting fuel because the plugs smell of gas after trying to start it and after disconnecting the hose after the fuel filter there was a steady flow of gas when turning the car on. We are getting power to the injectors as well.

Would a bad ecu still allow for all the components to get power? I pulled it and check all the connections everything seems fine and I had good continuity between my components and ecu, I checked everything according to the FSM.

Any other thoughts please people that could cause no spark?

No NOS in the gas tank lol..

****qwerth****

Car is turning over when we crank it, did yours still turn over? The starter does seam like its making a winding type noise, doesn't sound normal. I always thought when a starter was bad it just clicked though?

same here, proper voltage to the distributor but no spark. traded ecus and it worked. common problem. open your ecu and check for burned marks. or just borrow one

Ichiban4 · 07-12-2012, 06:49 PM

I'll recheck the grounds when I get home. No one to borrow an ecu from but did open it and it all looked fine. Thanks for the help so far.

godsmack · 07-12-2012, 07:14 PM

not sure if ka's have this but if the dizzy has an ignition module and thats bad you wont get spark. from what i'm gathering you are getting power to where you need it to power the dizzy so what ever is controling that power is not working.

slider2828 · 07-13-2012, 12:27 AM

Yeah the dizzy should have an ignition module.... But I thought he changed the entire dizzy with the ignition module?

mad-ass · 07-13-2012, 12:55 AM

This may sound silly, but jump start the car with another car while it's running. your battery may not have enough juice in it to actually start the car. This happens when the battery is old and it usually would have a bad cell in it.

and also, when you said your injectors didn't spray any fuel when you checked them..how did you check them? just off the intake manifold and cranked the car over? because they aren't suposed to spray or leak fuel unless the engine is actually started or cranking over.

and finally, does the car have gas? MAF connected?

Ichiban4 · 07-13-2012, 01:31 AM

Yea ignitor thing is built into the dizzy on obd2 and we changed that with no luck

mad-ass we cant get the car to start, we have swapped batteries and jumped the current one with no results so it's not a battery issue. MAF is connected. Didn't look at the fuel gauge but I am pretty sure it has gas.

Look into it more next week I'm gona be out of town this weekend thanks guys <3

kongoboi8 · 07-13-2012, 11:05 AM

I car use to be like that to. The third injector didn't spray so I got a new one. It got worst so I put the stock one back on. But mines was the distrubitor mul-joe. Forgot how to spell it. It use to crank and work to not working. If you advance tune a lot that might be the case. But check it with jumper cable. Use the negative to bite the spark plug and the other side to the negative battery. Then crank it and have someone look for spark.

Sileighty_85 · 07-13-2012, 11:27 AM

Brian I think its time for an SR upgrade lol

have you replaced the plug since they stopped sparking? Possibly the plugs are fould out from running rich?

Ichiban4 · 07-16-2012, 12:00 PM

Not my car Pat lol you know I have SR

Haven't replaced the plugs simply bc I really do't see all 4 going bad at one time, especially seemings we drove home fine and parked and then the next day the car wouldn't start and hasn't since then, been almost a month now :/

I am about to look up the main ground on the car and check and also I will re-check the ecu for burns again.

Anyone wouldn't happen to have a extremely cheap extra working one they would be interestef in shipping to help us out?

PowerDrifter · 07-16-2012, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichiban4

Not my car Pat lol you know I have SR

Haven't replaced the plugs simply bc I really do't see all 4 going bad at one time, especially seemings we drove home fine and parked and then the next day the car wouldn't start and hasn't since then, been almost a month now :/

I am about to look up the main ground on the car and check and also I will re-check the ecu for burns again.

Anyone wouldn't happen to have a extremely cheap extra working one they would be interestef in shipping to help us out?

your describing all my problems, my brother was drifting. turns it off and it wouldnt start anymore. i was going crazy because i was getting proper voltage but no spark. i replaced my harness because the one i had was pretty bad. and still didnt work. replaced ecu and bam it works. just because you dont see damage in the ecu dosent mean it isnt bad. it has micro chips. key word: MICRO. as in really small and you may not be able to see the damage

Ichiban4 · 07-23-2012, 01:09 PM

We just changed the ecu for a known working one and it still doesn't start, completely out of ideas now. Probably gona have to tow it to a shop or something.

Once changing the ecu we checked the codes with a little reader we have and we got a new code:

*Evaporative Emission System Vent Control Circuit*

Would that be causing all this? (EDIT apparently running a 97ecu on a 96 will make it throw the p0446 code) ... So i guess maybe that isn't an issue since we didn't get that code with his original ECU in.

Here is a video, is the sound in the beginning/end normal?

KA wont start clip - YouTube

idlafie · 07-25-2012, 11:47 PM

Intel 5811 might be right...check the cam sensor on the transmission housing.. hidden against the firewall. If you're not getting signal from that, then you won't get any spark.

Just out of curiosity, I take it the relays for the fuel pump & ECU are in good working condition??

Another suggestion is to check the ground wires located on the driver side of the motor towards the firewall above the oxygen sensor. If those ground wires short out or go bad, your S14 won't start. Nissan uses this ground spot for several sensors, so you'll have three or for wires grounded at this spot. I forget what sensors use this as the ground spot but I think the cam timing sensor is one of them.

I had this problem years ago with my 95. After three weeks with a dead S14 and two ASE certified mechanics not being able to figure it what the problem was, I finally broke down & took it to the dealership. The first thing the dealership tried telling me was that my ECU was bad. After proving them wrong with another ECU from a working S14, I was finally able to convince the dealership that I had a ground wire problem. I just couldn't figure out where the short was. It took the dealership two days to figure out that ground wires above the oxygen sensors had a short in it.

Anyhow, hope this helps...

ID

Sileighty_85 · 07-26-2012, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichiban4

Haven't replaced the plugs simply bc I really do't see all 4 going bad at one time, especially seemings we drove home fine and parked and then the next day the car wouldn't start and hasn't since then, been almost a month now :/

its not that they would be bad, but possibly fouled out from fuel being dumped from not starting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by idlafie

Intel 5811 might be right...check the cam sensor on the transmission housing.. hidden against the firewall. If you're not getting signal from that, then you won't get any spark.

That sensor doesnt control the engine system, its only for on board diagnostics for sensing misfire.

Although I would agree to check and clean all the grounds though for shits and giggles.

06-20-2012, 01:16 PM	#1
Ichiban4 Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Denver / Kanagawa Posts: 371 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	Car starts sometimes and then wont start again UPDATE PLEASE SKIP TO BOTTOM This is for my brother's 96 s14 ka24de Starts up usually after sitting an hour or so or completely cold, but sometimes you have to crank it a little or let off and crank it again. If the car was JUST running and you turn it off and try to start it, it wont start. It turns over fine it isn't a power issue or anything. Sounds like a coolant temp sensor issue right? Well it was replaced a few years ago because it was bad. I tested it out with a multimeter and it was getting proper voltage and ohms based on the temperature stated in the FSM. Are there any other sensors or things that could cause this? When they car is running it runs perfectly fine too by the way. Thanks for readiing __________________ ☆ Panda Pirates ☆ Last edited by Ichiban4; 07-12-2012 at 01:17 PM..

06-20-2012, 01:25 PM	#2
KiLLeR2001 Post Whore! Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: オーランドフロリダ Posts: 7,955 Trader Rating: (46) Feedback Score: 46 reviews	Run the car until it gets to normal operating temp. Turn car off, and check the resistance (ohms) on the coolant temp sensor. If that checks out fine you'll want to start the basic process of checking for fuel, spark and compression. __________________

06-20-2012, 01:40 PM	#3
Ichiban4 Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Denver / Kanagawa Posts: 371 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	Yea that's what I did, I was getting like .3ish which is about normal according to the fsm __________________ ☆ Panda Pirates ☆

06-23-2012, 03:06 PM	#4
Ichiban4 Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Denver / Kanagawa Posts: 371 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	UPDATE Car will not start at all today. Pulled the fuel rail and found out the injectors are not spraying any fuel. I pulled the line from the fuel filter and turn on the pump and got a good flow so the pump is working fine. What could cause them not to spray then? Seems like they went from working sometimes to not at all, and its not the injector itself because all 4 don't spray. Some type of electrical sensor or something? __________________ ☆ Panda Pirates ☆

06-23-2012, 04:44 PM	#5
KiLLeR2001 Post Whore! Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: オーランドフロリダ Posts: 7,955 Trader Rating: (46) Feedback Score: 46 reviews	Possibly faulty distributor. Are you getting any spark? edit: Oops this is a KA not an SR. __________________

06-23-2012, 04:59 PM	#6
Ichiban4 Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Denver / Kanagawa Posts: 371 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	Yup spark is ok, just no fuel. Pump is working though but it just isnt coming out of the injectors. __________________ ☆ Panda Pirates ☆

06-23-2012, 06:01 PM	#7
Ichiban4 Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Denver / Kanagawa Posts: 371 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	Just spark was fine yesterday when the car ran, today it won't start at all so just pulled the plugs again and cranked it and no spark whatsoever. __________________ ☆ Panda Pirates ☆

06-25-2012, 11:45 AM	#8
intel5811 Zilvia Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 215 Trader Rating: (10) Feedback Score: 10 reviews	Might help or not but worth a try... Beside the s13 I have a eclipse which was the doing the exact same thing I mean to the T. Well to not drag this it turned out to be the cam sensor. That was not reading after it reach a certain temp but would work when cold. Hope it helps.

06-25-2012, 12:14 PM	#9
qwerth Nissanaholic! Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: あなたのお母さんの家 Southern Cali Posts: 1,619 Trader Rating: (25) Feedback Score: 25 reviews	mine has been doing the same exact thing, until last week it didn't start at all i replaced the starter, fixed my problem __________________ DarkMagician Instagram

06-25-2012, 01:08 PM	#13
1on1 Post Whore! Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Norcal Age: 38 Posts: 3,321 Trader Rating: (15) Rides Gallery: 1on1 Feedback Score: 15 reviews	I hope your brother didn't pour NOS in his gas tank... However, try changing the fuel filter and check the resistance for each injector. You should also check the spark plug wires/cap/rotor. If there's crud on the cap and rotor, you can try and sand the connectors. __________________ instagram

06-25-2012, 04:05 PM	#14
slider2828 Post Whore! Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 5,998 Trader Rating: (13) Feedback Score: 13 reviews	Injectors work on ground signal from the ECU.... Check all your grounds, check voltage to injector (I am guessing its 0), check fuses.... Is your harness good? Swap ECU's. __________________ Turn and Burn!

06-26-2012, 11:54 AM	#15
ka4life87 Leaky Injector Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: casa grande Posts: 104 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I put my money on bad dizzy

07-12-2012, 12:32 PM	#16
Ichiban4 Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Denver / Kanagawa Posts: 371 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	UPDATE Car still isn't running -_- We swapped the distributor for one we bought on here from a guy who said it was working fine and it still wont start. I pulled a plug and cranked the car touching the threaded part of the plug to a grounded bolt on the chassis and no spark whatsoever. ALL wires going to the dizzy are getting proper voltage and resistance so I don't think there is a short anywhere. Pretty sure we are getting fuel because the plugs smell of gas after trying to start it and after disconnecting the hose after the fuel filter there was a steady flow of gas when turning the car on. We are getting power to the injectors as well. Would a bad ecu still allow for all the components to get power? I pulled it and check all the connections everything seems fine and I had good continuity between my components and ecu, I checked everything according to the FSM. Any other thoughts please people that could cause no spark? No NOS in the gas tank lol.. **qwerth** Car is turning over when we crank it, did yours still turn over? The starter does seam like its making a winding type noise, doesn't sound normal. I always thought when a starter was bad it just clicked though? __________________ ☆ Panda Pirates ☆

07-12-2012, 03:20 PM	#17
slider2828 Post Whore! Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 5,998 Trader Rating: (13) Feedback Score: 13 reviews	Still sounds like a grounding issue to me if you get no spark during crank.... Make sure you have all the grounds connected properly. There should be 5 grounds? Maybe someone with more KA experience can point out where the grounds are..... __________________ Turn and Burn!

07-12-2012, 06:49 PM	#19
Ichiban4 Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Denver / Kanagawa Posts: 371 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	I'll recheck the grounds when I get home. No one to borrow an ecu from but did open it and it all looked fine. Thanks for the help so far. __________________ ☆ Panda Pirates ☆

07-12-2012, 07:14 PM	#20
godsmack Zilvia Addict Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Allentown, PA Age: 38 Posts: 652 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	not sure if ka's have this but if the dizzy has an ignition module and thats bad you wont get spark. from what i'm gathering you are getting power to where you need it to power the dizzy so what ever is controling that power is not working.

07-13-2012, 12:27 AM	#21
slider2828 Post Whore! Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 5,998 Trader Rating: (13) Feedback Score: 13 reviews	Yeah the dizzy should have an ignition module.... But I thought he changed the entire dizzy with the ignition module? __________________ Turn and Burn!

07-13-2012, 12:55 AM	#22
mad-ass Nissanaholic! Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Nor Cal Posts: 2,273 Trader Rating: (14) Feedback Score: 14 reviews	This may sound silly, but jump start the car with another car while it's running. your battery may not have enough juice in it to actually start the car. This happens when the battery is old and it usually would have a bad cell in it. and also, when you said your injectors didn't spray any fuel when you checked them..how did you check them? just off the intake manifold and cranked the car over? because they aren't suposed to spray or leak fuel unless the engine is actually started or cranking over. and finally, does the car have gas? MAF connected? __________________

07-13-2012, 01:31 AM	#23
Ichiban4 Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Denver / Kanagawa Posts: 371 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	Yea ignitor thing is built into the dizzy on obd2 and we changed that with no luck mad-ass we cant get the car to start, we have swapped batteries and jumped the current one with no results so it's not a battery issue. MAF is connected. Didn't look at the fuel gauge but I am pretty sure it has gas. Look into it more next week I'm gona be out of town this weekend thanks guys <3 __________________ ☆ Panda Pirates ☆

07-13-2012, 11:05 AM	#24
kongoboi8 Zilvia Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: California Posts: 158 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I car use to be like that to. The third injector didn't spray so I got a new one. It got worst so I put the stock one back on. But mines was the distrubitor mul-joe. Forgot how to spell it. It use to crank and work to not working. If you advance tune a lot that might be the case. But check it with jumper cable. Use the negative to bite the spark plug and the other side to the negative battery. Then crank it and have someone look for spark.

07-13-2012, 11:27 AM	#25
Sileighty_85 Post Whore! Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Misawa, Japan Posts: 6,815 Trader Rating: (8) Feedback Score: 8 reviews	Brian I think its time for an SR upgrade lol have you replaced the plug since they stopped sparking? Possibly the plugs are fould out from running rich? __________________ 後輪駆動車１番 1989 Built SR GT2871R -363whp 1998 S14 W/RB25- 250ish (For Now) 1986 SR86 - 200ish 1990 R32 GTR - 320hp Don't Buy Engines from JDM-Online http://zilvia.net/f/businesses/207457-jdm-online.html Don't Buy XS-Power or SSAC Shit

07-16-2012, 12:00 PM	#26
Ichiban4 Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Denver / Kanagawa Posts: 371 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	Not my car Pat lol you know I have SR Haven't replaced the plugs simply bc I really do't see all 4 going bad at one time, especially seemings we drove home fine and parked and then the next day the car wouldn't start and hasn't since then, been almost a month now :/ I am about to look up the main ground on the car and check and also I will re-check the ecu for burns again. Anyone wouldn't happen to have a extremely cheap extra working one they would be interestef in shipping to help us out? __________________ ☆ Panda Pirates ☆

07-23-2012, 01:09 PM	#28
Ichiban4 Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Denver / Kanagawa Posts: 371 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	We just changed the ecu for a known working one and it still doesn't start, completely out of ideas now. Probably gona have to tow it to a shop or something. Once changing the ecu we checked the codes with a little reader we have and we got a new code: Evaporative Emission System Vent Control Circuit Would that be causing all this? (EDIT apparently running a 97ecu on a 96 will make it throw the p0446 code) ... So i guess maybe that isn't an issue since we didn't get that code with his original ECU in. Here is a video, is the sound in the beginning/end normal? KA wont start clip - YouTube __________________ ☆ Panda Pirates ☆

07-25-2012, 11:47 PM	#29
idlafie Zilvia Addict Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: ..So Cal.... Posts: 940 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Intel 5811 might be right...check the cam sensor on the transmission housing.. hidden against the firewall. If you're not getting signal from that, then you won't get any spark. Just out of curiosity, I take it the relays for the fuel pump & ECU are in good working condition?? Another suggestion is to check the ground wires located on the driver side of the motor towards the firewall above the oxygen sensor. If those ground wires short out or go bad, your S14 won't start. Nissan uses this ground spot for several sensors, so you'll have three or for wires grounded at this spot. I forget what sensors use this as the ground spot but I think the cam timing sensor is one of them. I had this problem years ago with my 95. After three weeks with a dead S14 and two ASE certified mechanics not being able to figure it what the problem was, I finally broke down & took it to the dealership. The first thing the dealership tried telling me was that my ECU was bad. After proving them wrong with another ECU from a working S14, I was finally able to convince the dealership that I had a ground wire problem. I just couldn't figure out where the short was. It took the dealership two days to figure out that ground wires above the oxygen sensors had a short in it. Anyhow, hope this helps... ID __________________ Weekend Mechanic for my Not-So-Mechanically-Inclined buddies....