STL Riots

[OutlawLui]

Black people are the real racist.

[ixfxi]

Originally Posted by Matej

The guy was some scumbag hooligan wannabe thug and I am pretty sure the officer did not just decide to shoot him for no reason. Bet all the individuals painting Michael Brown as a saint are the same people who would think twice about sitting next to him on public transportation late at night.
I am against the police as much as the next law-abiding resident, but this is not the right incident to rally behind.

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[theronin]

Originally Posted by ixfxi

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What about it?

[TMW]

Originally Posted by theronin

What about it?

Are you serious?

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by TMW

Are you serious?

Regardless of whatever - People need to understand a few things.

Most officers are poorly trained when it comes to using a fire-arm. Departments typically require some in class training and annual qualification. Qualification is typically shoot 5 rounds into a man-size target at 15 feet and demonstrate you can reload and properly draw your weapon.



There is also the adrenaline factor. Everyone is yelling, tense, weapons draw and "pop". This is why most cops struggle when asked "who fired first" or "why did you fire"? Someone fired... then they all fire, many times pulling the trigger until the target is visually down or they are out of ammo.

30 years ago out of ammo met 5-7 shots total. (Revolvers, 1911). Today, out of ammo means 12-17 shots... each. This is why you see "cops fired 37 times..." or "suspect shot 6 times".



Notice these are all terrible shot placement. It was not like the cop shot him 6 times in the chest. Those arm wounds are non-life threatening and would have done little to deter a close range assailant. Also, in the video, notice how fast those shots are fired. It's not long-range sniper stuff. Popopopop..... *guy falls down*

This isn't to excuse any of these cops - it's to explain why this stuff happens the way it does.

Several studies actually showed cops accuracy dropped dramatically with the transition from Revolvers to Semi-Autos and accidental firing, injury and other such incidence have increased.

http://americancopmagazine.com/legac...ied-revolvers/


This will blow your mind - China will start letting police cary fire arms...
http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2...ke-any-others/

[J3123MY]

Originally Posted by theronin

What about it?

Wow. Fucking cunt pigs. You're not suppose to shoot someone just because they told you to...

I have been told this by a pig. The reason every pig opens fire is to support the person who fired the first shot. When every pig shoots, it shows that all of them thought theirs or someone else's life was threatened.

Other cops will get mad at you if they opened fire and you did not, because it demonstrates that you thought there was no threat. Ever hear of the blue shield? Gangster pigs out to get us. Watch out.

Did you guys hear about the bank robbers in Stockton? The bank robbers took a hostage and all the pigs turned them into swiss cheese, including the hostage. So if someone takes you as a hostage, you better pray the cops don't show up.

[TMW]

Corbic, I'm not sure if what you just posted is relevant to the post of mine you quoted. As far as cops shooting people lots of times, that wasn't really what I was on about.

I assume you watched the video... I'm not trying to totally take what you said out of context, but you're not trying to justify what happened in that video just because of poor training and an adrenaline factor are you? Why did the officer even have to fire at all is the real question, not why did they fire almost 10 times. Again, I'm referring to the video not the Brown incident.

[Corbic]

Another thing worth noting, as the news is bitching about it...

Black Cops.

The news made a squawk about how there are not enough black cops in Fergy land. Back in school we covered this general problem ad nauseam as there has been lots of research in the last 30 years on it.

A. It's hard to find qualified canadits. To be a police officer you have to graduate high school, have a clean police record, never have done drugs (been caught), be at least 20-21 and many areas now require some form of a post high school degree.

1 in 15 Black men is in jail and 1 in 3 is likely to be arrested at some point in his life. Those individuals that do qualify - having remained out of trouble, gone to school entered college - typically want NOTHING TO DO WITH Law Enforcement. They see better opportunities else where.

B. It doesn't do shit. Black offers actually play right into the stereo type of "cops go easy on whites and hard on colors". This is two fold -

First it's the "your making us look back" mentality. A black cop worked hard together and likely has an axel to grind with all the gang-bangers and trouble makers from his home town. He's not about to cut some punk slack just because they share skin-tone. Many interviewed officers say they are just tired of these kids and trouble makers making the community look bad. Additionally, black officers don't want to make trouble, so they often go easier on white suspects because last thing they want to deal with is a "omfg mean black cop yelled at my blonde daughter" non-sense.

Second - Brotherhood. For any cop, fellow cops become family. For black officers, blue becomes the new skin tone. Their fellow cops, whether white or brown or black mean more then whatever racial community they come from and they act accordingly.

C. Uncle Tom - believe it or not, while the communities often cry how unfair it is and how they want more representation from their own racial group - those cops from the area that are that same genetic background then get treated like crap. Many of these communities hate the police and to see a "black man" acting like a "white cop" just enrages them as a "kid from the suburbs coming into the hood" does. These black officers get treated especially harshly and in turn grow bitter to their own community which goes back to Reason A and B

D. Fuck this shit : Politicians often want cops to be from where they police. Thats cool in a nice upscale community* but as a cop, the last thing you wan to be is living next to the meth house or gang-club that you just raided. Worse yet, you know what a shit hole areas are so you don't want your family anywhere near it. It's a safety issue. So even if you higher local black officers, they quickly get the hell out of dodge.

Basically 30 years of research shows that the issue is not one of race. People assume a black-cop will get along with an understand a black community better. The problem isn't skin color but culture and context. A black cop is still a cop and sees the world as a cop. The community, regardless of race, still sees the world the way they do - so gang bangers are still bangers, hipster and tree huggers are still pussies and meth heads are still tweakers. So no mater what, that divide still exists.

* it's also hard to "community police" upscale areas as cops can't afford to live in those areas - but then we don't hear people crying about needing more cops to live in those communities...

[Matej]

Originally Posted by TMW

Are you serious?

There are a bunch of other black people in the video. How come they did not shoot them all for no reason?

Suicide by police is actually more common than one may think. Legally, they have a right to shoot you for the slightest movement indicating you are intending to touch them or reach for their weapon. Yes, it is kind of silly how scared they apparently are of everyone, but at the same time people should know better than to approach them when being screamed at not to.

The guy had a knife by the way, if you cannot tell from the video.

[TMW]

Originally Posted by Matej

There are a bunch of other black people in the video. How come they did not shoot them all for no reason?

Suicide by police is actually more common than one may think. Legally, they have a right to shoot you for the slightest movement indicating you are intending to touch them or reach for their weapon. Yes, it is kind of silly how scared they apparently are of everyone, but at the same time people should know better than to approach them when being screamed at not to.

The guy had a knife by the way, if you cannot tell from the video.

Yes, I read he had a knife. I didn't say if anything about the officer's legal right to shoot the man.

Obviously, there will not be any repercussions for killing the man because it was justified and the right thing to do...

If you seriously think that the best way to handle that situation was to fill the guy full of lead just because he walked toward them then maybe you should pursue a career in law enforcement. There was definitely no way the officers could have diffused the situation or used non-lethal force. Right?

Quick edit: As far as this being a racial incident, I don't really think it is. If the guy was white they would have probably shot him just as many times.

[ixfxi]

im just surprised at the discussion here....

dude got shot and killed... i mean, cops filled him full of lead.

so.


cop A and B never thought once of shooting the guy in the leg?

its a fucking KNIFE, not a nuclear bomb. cap the guy ONCE in the leg, he's down and out... problem solved.

nope. lets kill the motherfucker.

anyway, i hate offtopic. i just wanted to add that video since i stumbled into it today.

[Matej]

Originally Posted by TMW

If you seriously think that the best way to handle that situation was to fill the guy full of lead just because he walked toward them then maybe you should pursue a career in law enforcement. There was definitely no way the officers could have diffused the situation or used non-lethal force. Right?

Originally Posted by ixfxi

cop A and B never thought once of shooting the guy in the leg?

its a fucking KNIFE, not a nuclear bomb. cap the guy ONCE in the leg, he's down and out... problem solved.

nope. lets kill the motherfucker.

The ironic thing is that my brother just graduated from the police academy a few weeks ago and the guys in the video did everything they were taught by the book. This is exactly the kind of stuff they trained. Take out the threat as quickly as possible with multiple shots to make sure they do not retaliate. Do not aim for the legs because it is a tough shot to make in the heat of the moment, plus while you are looking down you can lose track of what they are doing with their hands. Apparently when someone is pumped full of adrenaline, it may take multiple shots in the legs to take them down, which is especially risky when they are a few steps away from you, or whatever, I am not the expert.

I never said I agree with their methods. In fact, I find most of them ridiculous and over the top and I think police officers act like sissies who are constantly afraid of everyone so they shoot as soon as someone looks at them wrong, just in case. But at the same time, if you think that you can approach a cop with a knife and they are going to baby talk you out of it or something, then good luck. Why give them a reason to point their guns at you in the first place?

[theronin]

Originally Posted by ixfxi

im just surprised at the discussion here....

dude got shot and killed... i mean, cops filled him full of lead.

so.


cop A and B never thought once of shooting the guy in the leg?

its a fucking KNIFE, not a nuclear bomb. cap the guy ONCE in the leg, he's down and out... problem solved.

nope. lets kill the motherfucker.

anyway, i hate offtopic. i just wanted to add that video since i stumbled into it today.

This isn't the movies you don't aim for the legs or arms. Cop shoots someone in the leg, he gets sued. You don't approach a cop brandishing a knife either.

[TMW]

Lol, I was just reading over this thread and thought, "Either Matej or someone in his family is a cop..."

So, The Atlantic posted an article about the incident that quoted another journalist who said what I have quoted below. I think it somewhat captures what I think about what happened. And about the police "baby talking you out of it", the police should have some skills in talking to people who are agitated and angry and know how to not make a bad situation that much worse. The police should protect and serve not just kill a guy and drag his corpse off when someone calls about a disturbance/domestic dispute.

The police arrive and instantly escalate the situation... Powell looks sick more than he looks dangerous. But the police draw their weapons as soon as they exit their car... They don't seem to know how to stop Powell, save for using deadly force. But all Powell had was a steak knife. If the police had been in their car, with the windows rolled up, he could have done little to hurt them...

...Even when he advances on police, he walks, rather than runs... He swings his arms normally, rather than entering into a fighting stance. They begin yelling at him to stop. And when they begin shooting, they shoot to kill—even continuing to shoot when Powell is motionless on the ground. There is no warning shot, even. It does not seem like it should be so easy to take a life.

[1 88 U]

Guy in the video aprouched the cops with a knife. The shooting was justified.
Brown was stopped for Jay walking, hurt a cops pride by tussling his arm away and was chased down and executed. Not justified.

[WheelWhore]

Dont know what happened with Brown. Given the video of the convenient store, who knows?


The guy with the steak knife? Yeah, should have been tasered. That incident could have gone a million times differently. Its almost like they showed up anticipating it.

On the other hand, the fool stole from the store and then waited like he was some kind of martyr or had something to prove to the cops.

While he does make mention of social media and it looked like a stint, its just all around bad news...

[KiLLeR2001]

Super soaker filled with bear mace would have solved the problem with the charging knife lunatic.

[zeitgeist]

Originally Posted by theronin

You wouldn't be glad these riots were happening if they were in your town.

No I wouldn't, however if its for the good of the nation and the rights of the people, i'd for damn sure be out there protesting as well, my neighborhood or not

Originally Posted by Matej

The guy was some scumbag hooligan wannabe thug and I am pretty sure the officer did not just decide to shoot him for no reason. Bet all the individuals painting Michael Brown as a saint are the same people who would think twice about sitting next to him on public transportation late at night.
I am against the police as much as the next law-abiding resident, but this is not the right incident to rally behind.

I don't give a damn if he was a scumbag, a saint or whatever. Police don't have the right to act as executioner of an unarmed civilian. A lack of police accountability leads to the perversion of the law
And no this may not be the ideal event to act behind, but it's waking up the nation to the idea of police militarization and excess of force

Originally Posted by evilpanamajack

Black people are the real racist.

everyone is racist

Originally Posted by ixfxi

im just surprised at the discussion here....

dude got shot and killed... i mean, cops filled him full of lead.

so.

cop A and B never thought once of shooting the guy in the leg?

its a fucking KNIFE, not a nuclear bomb. cap the guy ONCE in the leg, he's down and out... problem solved.

nope. lets kill the motherfucker.

Mace would have been quite efficient. Or a tazer. But cops like to use bullets in the poor communities more

Originally Posted by Matej

The ironic thing is that my brother just graduated from the police academy a few weeks ago and the guys in the video did everything they were taught by the book. This is exactly the kind of stuff they trained. Take out the threat as quickly as possible with multiple shots to make sure they do not retaliate. Do not aim for the legs because it is a tough shot to make in the heat of the moment, plus while you are looking down you can lose track of what they are doing with their hands. Apparently when someone is pumped full of adrenaline, it may take multiple shots in the legs to take them down, which is especially risky when they are a few steps away from you, or whatever, I am not the expert.

I never said I agree with their methods. In fact, I find most of them ridiculous and over the top and I think police officers act like sissies who are constantly afraid of everyone so they shoot as soon as someone looks at them wrong, just in case. But at the same time, if you think that you can approach a cop with a knife and they are going to baby talk you out of it or something, then good luck. Why give them a reason to point their guns at you in the first place?

Escalation of force is the answer. How often do most police use this anymore? They don't have to because they get away with shooting a motherfucker in the dome as first response.
Lack of accountability from the public

Originally Posted by theronin

This isn't the movies you don't aim for the legs or arms. Cop shoots someone in the leg, he gets sued. You don't approach a cop brandishing a knife either.

I completely agree. If someone comes at you with a lethal weapon, kill the asshole
Vid of the most recent shooting. 9 shots? Plenty of time for a tazer
http://www.vox.com/2014/8/20/6051377...Kajieme-Powell

[theronin]

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

No I wouldn't, however if its for the good of the nation and the rights of the people, i'd for damn sure be out there protesting as well, my neighborhood or not


I don't give a damn if he was a scumbag, a saint or whatever. Police don't have the right to act as executioner of an unarmed civilian. A lack of police accountability leads to the perversion of the law
And no this may not be the ideal event to act behind, but it's waking up the nation to the idea of police militarization and excess of force


everyone is racist


Mace would have been quite efficient. Or a tazer. But cops like to use bullets in the poor communities more



Escalation of force is the answer. How often do most police use this anymore? They don't have to because they get away with shooting a motherfucker in the dome as first response.
Lack of accountability from the public


I completely agree. If someone comes at you with a lethal weapon, kill the asshole

So many contradictions in your post.

[zeitgeist]

please explain
I even provided you a video of the recent shooting

[silviasandbeer]

Theres a petition on whitehouse DOT gov that you can sign asking that all police officers have to wear a camera on them so that all this bull shit isnt always speculation

maybe some one should make a thread about that instead of a 25 yr car import law

if you dont recognize that the police in this country is getting out of hand and have entirely to much power and ZERO accountability than your not paying attension

im not black but even i reliaze that the black community have a history of opression in this country (dUHHH)

JAMES HOLMES who killed 12 people was arrested and brought out with some dignity by police officers... the media even showed his high school grad picture and tried to say he was a good kid....

mike brown was shot and killed and witnesses all say the same thing
he had his hands up saying "dont shoot"

and the media is showing the absolute worst pictures of him found on the internet loll we all have bad pictures that make us out to look like a thug, doesnt mean we are one


remeber the trayvon martin shit, all they seemed to care about was that he was suspended from school and smoke weed once or twice, who the fuck hasnt honestly... does that make you a thug
so to say that people are just "using the race card" or to even hint that race had nothing to do with mike browns murder is having rose colored glasses

people dont just wake up saying, Gee, i sure hope i get to use my race card today


as stated above, its not exactly a good thing people are rioting BUT if they didnt it would show that they werent concerned about the issue... woudnt you be fucking pissed off if your cousin/brother/friend or whatever was murdered? what would you do exactly?

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by silviasandbeer

if you dont recognize that the police in this country is getting out of hand and have entirely to much power and ZERO accountability than your not paying attension

Accept police will argue the world is an ever more dangerous place.

http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-...data/year.html

In 2012 Wiki estimates "nearly" 400 people where killed by police - many none of us would argue clearly deserved it.

You can see the link above - 122 officers where killed by people in 2012.


As for cameras, great - whose paying for them?

Second- it won't do shit to stop the Monday night quarterbacking and bitching about race.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by silviasandbeer

remeber the trayvon martin shit, all they seemed to care about was that he was suspended from school and smoke weed once or twice, who the fuck hasnt honestly... does that make you a thug

Yeah whatever. It was to show he was a trouble making thug that got in a fist fight with zims. Not an innocent alter boy gun down by a Neo nazi Klan member.

Remember how the media made a huge deal about how that "mix race ker " Zimmerman was supposedly white? How they edited the 911 tapes to make it sound like he was following him cause "he looks black!"....leaving out the operators request to know the suspects race...

[VROOOM]

Originally Posted by Matej

The ironic thing is that my brother just graduated from the police academy a few weeks ago and the guys in the video did everything they were taught by the book. This is exactly the kind of stuff they trained. Take out the threat as quickly as possible with multiple shots to make sure they do not retaliate. Do not aim for the legs because it is a tough shot to make in the heat of the moment, plus while you are looking down you can lose track of what they are doing with their hands. Apparently when someone is pumped full of adrenaline, it may take multiple shots in the legs to take them down, which is especially risky when they are a few steps away from you, or whatever, I am not the expert.

I never said I agree with their methods. In fact, I find most of them ridiculous and over the top and I think police officers act like sissies who are constantly afraid of everyone so they shoot as soon as someone looks at them wrong, just in case. But at the same time, if you think that you can approach a cop with a knife and they are going to baby talk you out of it or something, then good luck. Why give them a reason to point their guns at you in the first place?

exactly, eliminate the threat

[VROOOM]

a cop was almost beat to death at the mall 3 miles from my house a week ago. even people with no weapons can be dangerous. the cop probably would have died if it wasnt for a citizen who pushed the guy off the cop.

[1 88 U]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFddlI9QHJk#t=18

[silviasandbeer]

[QUOTE=Corbic;5706721]Accept police will argue the world is an ever more dangerous place.

http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-...data/year.html

As for cameras, great - whose paying for them?

QUOTE]

grants?
maybe taxes, id feel great knowing that my tax money would go to this
if we can pay billions for rockets and tanks and the war can we not fund this??

no it wont stop armchair reporters, but thats not the point of the cameras..
its to hold some one accountable in the justice system, not to please some dumbass who complains about the system but does nothing about it



and i wouldnt dismiss the race/class issue as "bitching"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y7XX_jI0PI

watch that... she makes valid points
she also mentions Rilato CA police department and how they have cameras on each officer and police complaints about misconduct have dropped dramatically

[DRIFTER-M]

Regardless of where one stands on this issue, there is some strong misinformation in this thread.

- I can tell you I have witness cops profile every color, sometimes it has to do with age and time, sometimes race, whatever. They are taught statistics and look for that. This is fair, its part of life and keeping communities safe. I have been wrongly harassed before, it ended up being just fine. I may have been angered at the time of the irritation, however after I calmed down I could rationalize why - the officer is simply doing their job.

- Applying more tax money elsewhere would be a nightmare being we are further and further in a drowning pool of national debt and our schools continue to take a large beating with funding. No offense, but it is fairly obvious you are young when a comment like that is made.

- People need to be VERY wary of media coverage of events like this. They ABSOLUTELY have agendas and do studies to learn how to gain viewers and attention. Regardless of which side was wrong, 2 cases in this very thread which have been mentioned - Brown and Martin were both STRONGLY mishandled by the national media to create outrage and controversy which ups their ratings, viewership, and coverage exposure and it's probably worthy to note that if you study up on politicians involvement with national media sources you may be surprised at the findings and may understand some of the bias that exist in reporting today.

Example: The media portraying Brown as a "Kid", he was 18 years old 292 pounds and 6 foot 4? Robbed a store, so clearly didn't make wonderful life or logically impressive decisions. 18 is a legal adult, strong armed robbery is a felony. He was an adult felon. How does "Cop shoots adult felon in self-defense" sound? Not like much of a major headline.

Example 2: In the Martin case showing pictures when he was between 12-14, showing a picture of Zimmerman in orange (tricking the mind into thinking prison uniform), portraying him as white, editing 911 tapes, he was carrying "tea", etc.

The media absolutely sparks much of the controversy that exist today, it helps their business.

- Wrongs absolutely happen within the police force, and many today are quick to point fingers and throw the flag. I do feel many are on a power trip, and at times overstep their boundaries. What's funny is the amount of people who would probably (though never admittedly) would never have the BALLS to do the job they do. Every day they face a danger, when they pull over a car for speeding, who knows if that guy is packing drugs and has a Glock under the front seat. They could get a call to a shooting and instantly put their life in danger to help others. So many more instances that we would probably absolutely freeze in, or even pee ourselves in if it happened to us. That doesn't excuse it however - the ones who do abuse the badge. The problem is this particular case has no proof to support that.

- Statistics show (like has already been said in this thread prior) that when instances of self defense occur, especially when one is surprised by incident and not expecting it, the amount of shots can increase, inaccuracy goes up, loss of memory, etc. Adrenaline among panic does funny stuff to the human brain and body, anybody who has ever been in a traumatic circumstance can tell you that. It is also a basic foundation of psychology when dealing with instances of trauma.

- Not all of the witness statements said he did nothing, by the way. In fact - the most important of all witness statements (made by the friend of Brown) has been completely blown up by evidence and autopsy findings. There are a mix of witness reports, some of which absolutely coincide with the Police forces side of the story.

I am not one for strong militarization of our police force, strong central government, this that and the other. I think our constitution is ran over today, the whole reason our founding fathers formed the states and created America serves no purpose anymore and that is SCARY. I think it is humorous that many of the people who don't want the "militarization" of the police force are the same people who are fine with the gun control laws. The whole reason the founding fathers wanted the right to bare arms was to protect against an all empowering oppressive government - how's that for a knowledge drop?

[HORShi]

Originally Posted by silviasandbeer

grants?
maybe taxes, id feel great knowing that my tax money would go to this
if we can pay billions for rockets and tanks and the war can we not fund this??

no it wont stop armchair reporters, but thats not the point of the cameras..
its to hold some one accountable in the justice system, not to please some dumbass who complains about the system but does nothing about it



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y7XX_jI0PI

watch that... she makes valid points
she also mentions Rilato CA police department and how they have cameras on each officer and police complaints about misconduct have dropped dramatically

Shoot, I wouldn't mind paying extra taxes for cameras. That would stop all these "lack of..." non-sense that myself personally, thinks its entire bullshit at times. I'm not just talking about in this particular situation either. Make it required to wear one for whenever your on duty, doesn't matter if it's a full blown OK Carrol shootout or a giving a ticket because the parking meter expired. Lack of evidence, lack of accountability, lack of witnesses, lack of "clear video angles" etc. etc. etc. just makes things extremely complicated and I'm sure make things much harder for investigators. Having these cams, would give us first hand into the view of the officer and whatever the opposing force is. I believe it would give a personal account of how the officer was thinking, the way he/she acted and why he/she acted in the manner he/she does. You'll be able to evaluate the threat level of the task, answer "was the officer actions necessary for the given conflict" and kill off a lot of the hearsay like in this incident we have here and in many others to come.

Originally Posted by silviasandbeer

and i wouldnt dismiss the race/class issue as "bitching"

I agree. It's been said NUMEROUS of times that we have arguably the most broken, worst, backwards police/justice system in the world. We have a lot of demons in the closet to deal with in our country.

Racism is much more complicated now then it was back then. Racism now have become a racial/class kind of thing. Which in turns, makes everything even more "explosive". It's not just painted white and black anymore...It's a socioeconomic thing now.

[WheelWhore]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Remember how the media made a huge deal about how that "mix race ker " Zimmerman was supposedly white? How they edited the 911 tapes to make it sound like he was following him cause "he looks black!"....leaving out the operators request to know the suspects race...

Any sources for this? I never heard mention of this before.