What should I do with my 16k mile S14?

[Hoffman5982]

uhhh no..

i bought my last hybrid manifold for $85 shipped. Even having CodyAce do it would be like $250. A used t28 is $300. What lines and gaskets are costing $200? I spent less on gaskets when I did a full rebuild. The bulk of the price comes from ecu and tuning, but after doing so you will most definitely make more power than a stock SR and spend less doing so.

People act like you can buy an SR from Japan and throw it right in. You still have to deal with wiring, radiator, intercooler, etc. I spent more on that stuff when I did my first SR than I originally did to boost my KA, and I spent more overall on the SR than I did for my freshly built, forged bottom end KA. You can argue which engine is more capable all you want, but you simply can't argue the price difference. Especially when red tops are going for nearly $3000 these days.

[RalliartRsX]

.....yeah, but you are not factoring in blowing it up in the price

[Hoffman5982]

Originally Posted by RalliartRsX

.....yeah, but you are not factoring in blowing it up in the price

Actually, I am. I boosted my motor, blew the headgasket, then blew the rings out. I completely rebuilt the motor with forged internals and had an issue with the flywheel that caused the bolts to back out and the flywheel to fall off. I replaced the flywheel, crank(with machining), bearings, head(with machining), and gaskets, and I've still spent less overall than I did on my SR which was ultimately stock.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by Hoffman5982

uhhh no..

i bought my last hybrid manifold for $85 shipped. Even having CodyAce do it would be like $250. A used t28 is $300. What lines and gaskets are costing $200?

All that stuff is garbage. I would never put a 20 year old turbocharger on any engine these days, not worth it compared to what is available. I don't think the op wants a chipped up smoke machine either, that was never an option and never will be. To press the KA engine it takes at least 38lb/min as the minimum flow rate.

I spent less on gaskets when I did a full rebuild. The bulk of the price comes from ecu and tuning, but after doing so you will most definitely make more power than a stock SR and spend less doing so.

I disagree because when we factor in the SR20's 200,000 miles of reliability vs the 20-40k or whatever you get (u probably didnt even get 20k) from a KA at same 350rwhp it will cost you five to 10x as many KA engines in the long run. Tell me, where is your stock piston KA engine now and how many 350rwhp miles on the stock pistons using only 93 octane fuel? And you can't do a methanol KA comparison because the sr doesn't need that extra $500 safety system with weekly methanol charges.

People act like you can buy an SR from Japan and throw it right in. You still have to deal with wiring, radiator, intercooler, etc.

It takes me a day to do an SR swap. And two days if I want to change all the major gaskets, seals, clutch, and clean everything inside and out. Wiring = free. Radiator = $75 shipped. Intercooler = $180shipped.
heres my old build thread where I did all that in two days at some point
http://www.freshalloy.com/showthread...ir-and-Restore

Believe me, I know the cost and it isn't what ten KA engines with stock pistons cost.

price of a new turbo is the same for both engines so it isn't a factor and makes no difference on one engine or the other.

[spooled240]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

All that stuff is garbage. I would never put a 20 year old turbocharger on any engine these days, not worth it compared to what is available.

All that "garbage" is off your SR20 lol

[TheRealSy90]

FYI an sr20 with an EFR turbo, E85, and proper engine management can do 400whp/400ft-lbs (200hp per litre).
(more power and torque than an entry level LS swap)

[pacotaco345]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

All that stuff is garbage. I would never put a 20 year old turbocharger on any engine these days, not worth it compared to what is available. I don't think the op wants a chipped up smoke machine either, that was never an option and never will be. To press the KA engine it takes at least 38lb/min as the minimum flow rate.

I disagree because when we factor in the SR20's 200,000 miles of reliability vs the 20-40k or whatever you get (u probably didnt even get 20k) from a KA at same 350rwhp it will cost you five to 10x as many KA engines in the long run. Tell me, where is your stock piston KA engine now and how many 350rwhp miles on the stock pistons using only 93 octane fuel? And you can't do a methanol KA comparison because the sr doesn't need that extra $500 safety system with weekly methanol charges.

It takes me a day to do an SR swap. And two days if I want to change all the major gaskets, seals, clutch, and clean everything inside and out. Wiring = free. Radiator = $75 shipped. Intercooler = $180shipped.
heres my old build thread where I did all that in two days at some point
http://www.freshalloy.com/showthread...ir-and-Restore

Believe me, I know the cost and it isn't what ten KA engines with stock pistons cost.

price of a new turbo is the same for both engines so it isn't a factor and makes no difference on one engine or the other.

I love how you preach rear mount oil-less turbos like they're God's gift to Earth, and how you wouldn't be caught dead with a pre historic used t28 that anyone can pick up on the classifieds for $400 all day long, then you go tell OP to shove a Band-Aid SAFC 1999-tech bullshit box on a perfectly good car. That's just asking for trouble. For fine tuning a mail in tune do they work? Yeah.. For developing a tune from scratch to turbo your motor that was never designed to have a turbo strapped to it? LOL. Not to mention in the same post you reference $180 ebay intercooler kits and $75 shitty radiators that are welded together by some smelly dude in Taiwan with Parkinsons disease.


...Which brings me to my next point, are you advocating for a KA or an SR? Because you keep talking shit about KAs, then telling OP to go do some Mickey Mouse ghetto hack job like fabbing up intercooler piping that runs the length of the car, and splicing in a water/meth kit that WILL run out of juice while he's driving eventually. And that WILL blow up a KA when it's being fed 12 pounds of boost with nothing to compensate besides a SAFC in Texas heat. If you love SRs so much why don't you just tell him to swap in a stock SR and not deal with any of the bullshit?


That being said, even though I would never put a KA-T in my car over an SR, turboing that brand new KA the right way sounds a lot more reliable than throwing in some aging, beat to shit SR that got pulled out of a wrecker somewhere in JP and has been sitting upside-down in a freight container for 2 months.


OP: If you want to stay KA, then there's a tried and true recipe to make 300 hp reliably, and its already been mentioned in the thread.


$500 Tomei cast manifold (cast because it will NEVER crack)
$200 Tomei turbo elbow
$0-500 Whatever exhaust you want (stock is good for killing about 20-30 hp)
$100-500 Whatever intercooler kit you want (that s15 sidemount setup is pretty slick)
$400 S14/15 t28 @ 14 psi
$200 740cc injectors
$100 z maf
$100 turbo lines/mod the oil pan for an oil return
$1000 for a decent standalone, I suggest finding a reputable tuner and buying whatever he/she likes to use the most.


All that will put you at the price of buying an SR swap from an importer, it will make a little more torque, and you'll have the peace of mind knowing that your engine was in good condition to start with, and that you had eyes on everything that got put on the car.


You can go on youtube and look up "tomei making of KA-T" and you'll see their whole R&D process behind building that motor, as well as how much power it made. Actually, thinking of it now, that build is probably something along the lines that you'd be shooting for.

[Hoffman5982]

“No one wants a 20 year old turbo”

...what do you think comes on an sr? And with a good tune a 300-350whp ka will last just as long as that sr. I’ve seen plenty of sr’s blow up at 300hp. Don’t forget we’re talking about a 16k mile ka. You’re not going to make 300+ on an sr without turbo, injector, and ecu upgrades either, so now you’re looking at even more money. I didn’t say anything about how fast you can swap it in.

[Kingtal0n]

thanks to everyone for posts

Originally Posted by spooled240

All that "garbage" is off your SR20 lol

Yep and I would not use it. Why go through all the trouble to install an engine using 20 year old parts that are on the verge of replacement? The issue now with sr20's is age + mileage. Not performance, we know they perform well. The idea being discussed here, the comparison contrast isn't between sr vs ka, and it isn't between hp vs dollars. The real comparison being made here is reliability vs effort, and then we can include cost for a final stats breakdown once the truly reliable, least effort pathways are exposed. And I will address this further if you will bide...

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

FYI an sr20 with an EFR turbo, E85, and proper engine management can do 400whp/400ft-lbs (200hp per litre).
(more power and torque than an entry level LS swap)

Almost an Excellent point, and a great reason not to go N/A LS swap. All that work and extra money for a big engine, and your car isn't any faster where it counts (trap speed). This was/is my excuse for never going N/A LS swap in a 2800lb vehicle.
On the other hand, 400 is pushing it for an OEM sr20. 400rwhp is so easy on a redtop, but its just a tad higher than I would comfortably daily a reliable stock sr20det engine with, personal opinion. Look at the other engine, the LS is barely working at 400 and weighs about the same, whereas the sr20 could go/blow apart any minute due to all that boost and rpm on stock internals and presumably sometimes poor fuel condition. Reliability rears its ugly head in the form of 'potentially unreliable'. Changing engines is always more effort than not changing engines and is less reliable. I can say the LS at 400 would last 10 or 20 years with a 98-99% confidence interval. That is essentially how/why they are made and there are thousands (hundred thousands?) examples. Whereas with sr20's I cannot think/find even one or two good examples of 400hp/20 years, and even if I could it wouldn't form a substantial sample size to draw reasonable confidence/conclusions from. Feel free to add statistical evidence of such models it would be interesting to find some and do some better comparisons.

Originally Posted by pacotaco345

I love how you preach rear mount oil-less turbos like they're God's gift to Earth, and how you wouldn't be caught dead with a pre historic used t28 that anyone can pick up on the classifieds for $400 all day long,

Because I've gone this route. I bought a $380 shipped T-28 once and I never will again because it was a huge mistake. It looked great and had no shaft play, but when Installed finally it made a loud whining noise. It was also all chipped up from years of abuse and no bypass valve. The price of a brand new top mount turbo is around $500~ from a large variety of manufacturers so playing russian roulette with used 20 year old junk is !@*(&@ #(*&@#@ "won't be caught dead doing that again" is right. Not to mention their technology is so outdated, what you can get now is light years beyond it. Twice the power with similar spool I say is possible. GFL with that old junk, it isn't an option anymore 2018.

then you go tell OP to shove a Band-Aid SAFC 1999-tech bullshit box on a perfectly good car. That's just asking for trouble. For fine tuning a mail in tune do they work? Yeah.. For developing a tune from scratch to turbo your motor that was never designed to have a turbo strapped to it? LOL. Not to mention in the same post you reference $180 ebay intercooler kits and $75 shitty radiators that are welded together by some smelly dude in Taiwan with Parkinsons disease.

Hmm I guess you don't tune cars. The only thing the SAFC cant do is control timing and the only reason that isn't an issue is because the methanol and the only reason there is methanol is because its a stock cast piston KA that should never be run without meth or E85. Therefore, logic follows:
always has meth -> timing isn't an issue at 8-10psi of boost -> safc is the best/cheapest alternative, least amount of effort and high reliability. The only thing more reliable is to actually control the timing, which means only slightly less timing (two to 5 degrees), which means less power (5 to 12 ft*lb of torque probs). In other words, its a significant additional cost to rom-tune/stand-alone ($500-$1500) for such an insignificant change (2-5* less timing and 5 to 12~ less torque). What I suggest things I do these statistical analysis so you can rest assured it was an appropriate series of assumptions that led me to that route.

Now, the cheap ebay parts, there are some good one and some terrile ones. Ebay radiators WORK GOOD. If you turbo the KA you would want the Aluminum KA radiator anyways (not using plastic end tanks ftw) so the cost is not important. It doesn't matter if you bought a $75 or $200 radiator because EITHER WAY, with BOTH engines, you still have to buy one, whichever one you would have bought to begin with.

The same thing goes for an intercooler. You can't say that $intercooler cost is part of the SR swap and nothing to do with the turbo KA because the turbo KA still needs an intercooler. So again, it won't matter if you spent $5 or $500 for an intercooler because thats the same intercooler you would have purchased regardless of which engine you have. The cost of those parts is not part of the equation at all and cannot be fairly used 'against' one engine or the other.

...Which brings me to my next point, are you advocating for a KA or an SR? Because you keep talking shit about KAs, then telling OP to go do some Mickey Mouse ghetto hack job like fabbing up intercooler piping that runs the length of the car, and splicing in a water/meth kit that WILL run out of juice while he's driving eventually.

Nay mate, you misunderstand my visions. The purpose of the rear mount turbo orientation is not really just power. It is more for elegance, a fabricators masterpiece. A car that needs to stand out as artwork in the form of welding and cutting. The entire underside of a vehicle is as cosmetic in appearance attributes to 'car people' as the paint is to regular people. The rear-mount gives the owner/fabricator the maximum amount of potential for creation of such art, in the form of an exceptionally well engineered system. The cost of such a system could be in excess of $10,000 or more when done right. I am not sure anybody realizes how much it costs to run full high quality stainless oval tube tig welded, coated, and then covered by more custom sheets/plates to be protected from the environment and insulated to contain that fire and put it to work. If done right, it becomes the car, you are driving that artwork, tolerably efficient spectacular artwork.

here is an stand-out example

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showth...-testing/page8

And that WILL blow up a KA when it's being fed 12 pounds of boost with nothing to compensate besides a SAFC in Texas heat. If you love SRs so much why don't you just tell him to swap in a stock SR and not deal with any of the bullshit?

I'd never run an KA turbo without meth or E85 in 2018, said it several times pls read...
If you opted for 93 only the reduced timing would be a necessity instead of just a recommendation and a SAFC would not work. But I never once suggested pump gas + safc by itself. I mentioned several times that it would be used in conjunction with Methanol/water.

That being said, even though I would never put a KA-T in my car over an SR, turboing that brand new KA the right way sounds a lot more reliable than throwing in some aging, beat to shit SR that got pulled out of a wrecker somewhere in JP and has been sitting upside-down in a freight container for 2 months.

I also never suggested an original SR20det either. The rough truth is I don't advocate either engine in a 240sx unless you are able to deal with rebuilds in 2018. The sr20's are too old to rely on heavily without a rebuild, and the KA engines even new are still fragile higher compression truck motors with too much stroke to be practical/reliable in motorsports competition event., and they too have no replacements easily available either.

Ex. if you bought $5000 in parts for the KA engine and blow it up. Where are you going to get another 13k miles KA engine to drop in? That KA motor is worth $800-$1000 if sold at 15k miles to the right person. I would suggest to sell it for $800 and use that money towards a rebuilt SR20 that you follow FSM procedure in a clean room with all the right tools and put a turbo on THAT at 350-400rwhp for ~10 years. At least we know the sr20 will do the job and our effort vs reliability will pay off, IF the motor rebuild goes swimmingly. spectacularly. Whereas the KA Is always/still a wild card, question mark, and irresplacable, and parts from which are un-reusable. To many ifs and oopses I'm afraidses.

Originally Posted by Hoffman5982

“No one wants a 20 year old turbo”

...what do you think comes on an sr? And with a good tune a 300-350whp ka will last just as long as that sr. I’ve seen plenty of sr’s blow up at 300hp. Don’t forget we’re talking about a 16k mile ka. You’re not going to make 300+ on an sr without turbo, injector, and ecu upgrades either, so now you’re looking at even more money. I didn’t say anything about how fast you can swap it in.

If I bought an sr, I hope you read the above, I'd ditch the turbo and buy a new one no questions. Its part of the cost in 2018 or it isn't worth it. Turbo tech has come so far it would be #)(@*# to use the 20 year old junk. SR20det come from Japan with 280-300bhp so 320-350bhp is barely pushing it, an extra cold day, the engineers that design engines account for those extra cold days and then more, with respect to the yield/fracture limits the engine will be exposed to under a variety of conditions. If it blows up at that level it wasn't the engines fault. I've seen enough sr20's with proper parts survive unthinkable terrors so I am fairly confident in the success rate of even the stock low compression cast piston sr20 models around 350rwhp to advocate a fresh one at that level for 10-20 years.

Finally, I would never use a redtop. Its absolutely the most ancient sr20 out there, and lacks VTC. Use the S14 version and maintain the VTC working properly for best results.

[Hoffman5982]

We’re talking about whp here. Notchtops are rated at 220, s15’s at 250. Put it on the dyno and they MIGHT break 210 at the wheels. Once again, if you’re changing the turbo, therefore requiring a tune” that adds even more to the total price. No thanks, I’d rather spend less and have a freshly rebuilt ka with more power, better power band, and significantly more reliability due to freshness and forgedness. It’s not rocket appliance, it’s easy to comprehend. What’s the downfall, a lower rev limit? 7200 is plenty for me. In fact I bump mine down to 6900.

[tb13]

Slapping a turbo on the KA and doing it right would be great if you are going to keep the power around 300whp. It'll be a hell of a lot quicker than stock and probably last quite sometime with a proper tune and supporting mods. I have seen local guys romp on stock KA's on low boost for event after even without fail.

If the car were mine I'd opt for an SR all day, every day. Get your hands on a clean S14 or S15 SR20 and completely refresh it. Keep it stupid simple, get it tuned for whatever octane fuel you have locally and enjoy it. As others have stated, a stock SR is bullet proof if maintained properly, swap it and never look back.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by Hoffman5982

We’re talking about whp here. Notchtops are rated at 220, s15’s at 250. Put it on the dyno and they MIGHT break 210 at the wheels. Once again, if you’re changing the turbo, therefore requiring a tune” that adds even more to the total price. No thanks, I’d rather spend less and have a freshly rebuilt ka with more power, better power band, and significantly more reliability due to freshness and forgedness. It’s not rocket appliance, it’s easy to comprehend. What’s the downfall, a lower rev limit? 7200 is plenty for me. In fact I bump mine down to 6900.

I owned a stock S15 Silvia and maxed it on the dyno at 305rwhp. changed the turbo and at the same boost pressure (17psi) made 350rwhp. No issues there.

Forged is not better with 4-cylinder typical JDM engines. Forged is less reliable, not good for a daily. Needs proper setup for success. Oil acumulator or rod bearing #1 is toast after 15-20k miles in sr20's I've seen over and over. KA? good ruck

[Hoffman5982]

You're still missing the point. You changed the turbo, injectors, maf and got a tune, I can only assume on a powerfc since it's the most common. None of that is cheap and adds to the already high price of the SR motorset. Building a KA will still cost less. I disagree with a built motor being unreliable as I have seen many run for years, but for the sake of the argument you could do an oem rebuild, have it blueprinted, and make the same 350whp with just as much, if not more reliability, more torque, and less boost, all for less money.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by Hoffman5982

You're still missing the point. You changed the turbo, injectors, maf and got a tune, I can only assume on a powerfc since it's the most common. None of that is cheap and adds to the already high price of the SR motorset. Building a KA will still cost less.

I think it is you who are missing the point- you still need to buy all that same stuff for the KA. It just costs more, and is worth less.

Sorry man gota buy turbo maf injectors ecu etc... no matter what no matter which engine you pick. If I am forced to buy those things its better to buy for an application that is common so the re-sale value is higher. Or a setup that can cross-platform coexist. Thus the recommendation of a rear mounted 600hp turbo that couldn't care less whether you had the KA or SR or LS or 2J or 1J or RB or VQ application. Swap each engine in, all day long same power output maximum regardless of displacement because its the turbo, not the engine, that makes the power.

Invest in the car- win even when you lose the engine
Invest in the engine- lose if you lose the engine

15k miles chassis at stake, as an engineer you aren't building an engine or a swap, the engineer is building the car. Chassis support, stability, fabrication that will look mint and serve a higher purpose no matter how the car is used. And will re-route as many parts as possible throughout the car's life to be viable regardless of what is going on with the engine flavor of the week. The KA obviously isn't going to stay forever; they never do.

[Hoffman5982]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

I think it is you who are missing the point- you still need to buy all that same stuff for the KA. It just costs more, and is worth less.

Sorry man gota buy turbo maf injectors ecu etc... no matter what no matter which engine you pick.

I'm not missing the point and I very obviously understand that you have to buy all the stuff considering we're discussing adding a turbo to a non turbo engine. That was by far the most redundant statement possibly in the history of this forum. You clearly are missing the point which is that, and I'd like for this to be the last time I state so please pay attention here: It will still cost less than an SR setup.

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

If I am forced to buy those things its better to buy for an application that is common so the re-sale value is higher.

If you're building a car for resale value, please quit. That said, you of all people making that statement is hilarious since you're the one that's always pm'ing people with "I need this and I need it for this price" and the price you demand is always a pretty significant lowball. But that's a whole other discussion.

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

Or a setup that can cross-platform coexist. Thus the recommendation of a rear mounted 600hp turbo that couldn't care less whether you had the KA or SR or LS or 2J or 1J or RB or VQ application. Swap each engine in, all day long same power output maximum regardless of displacement because its the turbo, not the engine, that makes the power.

Did you really say it's the turbo that makes the power?? I....I don't even know how to respond to that ridiculous statement. No. Just no. A 2871r will make more power on a KA than an SR. A gt35 will make more power on a JZ than an SR. Yeah, you can run 18psi on an sr and make the same power as the same turbo at 10psi on a ka, but that's yet another pointless comparison.

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

The KA obviously isn't going to stay forever; they never do.

There are too many people that disprove that idiotic statement.

[pacotaco345]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

Because I've gone this route. I bought a $380 shipped T-28 once and I never will again because it was a huge mistake. It looked great and had no shaft play, but when Installed finally it made a loud whining noise. It was also all chipped up from years of abuse and no bypass valve. The price of a brand new top mount turbo is around $500~ from a large variety of manufacturers so playing russian roulette with used 20 year old junk is !@*(&@ #(*&@#@ "won't be caught dead doing that again" is right. Not to mention their technology is so outdated, what you can get now is light years beyond it. Twice the power with similar spool I say is possible. GFL with that old junk, it isn't an option anymore 2018.

Sucks you got screwed, wanna cry about it? I ran a used s15 t28 for two years till the motor ate a throttle body screw, spit it out the exhaust, and fed it to the turbo. Said motor made 320 wheel and full boost at 3200 rpm. Hard to argue with those results.

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

Hmm I guess you don't tune cars. The only thing the SAFC cant do is control timing and the only reason that isn't an issue is because the methanol and the only reason there is methanol is because its a stock cast piston KA that should never be run without meth or E85. Therefore, logic follows:
always has meth -> timing isn't an issue at 8-10psi of boost -> safc is the best/cheapest alternative, least amount of effort and high reliability. The only thing more reliable is to actually control the timing, which means only slightly less timing (two to 5 degrees), which means less power (5 to 12 ft*lb of torque probs). In other words, its a significant additional cost to rom-tune/stand-alone ($500-$1500) for such an insignificant change (2-5* less timing and 5 to 12~ less torque). What I suggest things I do these statistical analysis so you can rest assured it was an appropriate series of assumptions that led me to that route.

CORRECTION, the only thing the SAFC CAN do is modify the MAF signal going to the ecu. Which (yes) can alter fueling to whatever you desire, but can also put you in a part of the timing map where you shouldn't be for the load that the motor is experiencing. Obviously you don't tune cars. Also, here's this for your statistical bullshit. An SAFC is $200, water meth is another $3-400. A good ROM tune is $500 from Martin at RS, and a used standalone can be had for as cheap as $400.. Why would you ever recommend the SAFC?

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

Now, the cheap ebay parts, there are some good one and some terrile ones. Ebay radiators WORK GOOD. If you turbo the KA you would want the Aluminum KA radiator anyways (not using plastic end tanks ftw) so the cost is not important. It doesn't matter if you bought a $75 or $200 radiator because EITHER WAY, with BOTH engines, you still have to buy one, whichever one you would have bought to begin with.

The same thing goes for an intercooler. You can't say that $intercooler cost is part of the SR swap and nothing to do with the turbo KA because the turbo KA still needs an intercooler. So again, it won't matter if you spent $5 or $500 for an intercooler because thats the same intercooler you would have purchased regardless of which engine you have. The cost of those parts is not part of the equation at all and cannot be fairly used 'against' one engine or the other.

You missed my point, I wasn't arguing the that the cost for a new radiator was more for one motor or the other. I was pointing out that you're ruining your credibility by mentioning a $10,000 turbo setup in the same thread you mentioned using a $75 radiator. Decide if you want to be an elitist prick or a cheap bastard, but don't flip flop between the two. It makes you sound like an idiot.

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

Nay mate, you misunderstand my visions. The purpose of the rear mount turbo orientation is not really just power. It is more for elegance, a fabricators masterpiece. A car that needs to stand out as artwork in the form of welding and cutting. The entire underside of a vehicle is as cosmetic in appearance attributes to 'car people' as the paint is to regular people. The rear-mount gives the owner/fabricator the maximum amount of potential for creation of such art, in the form of an exceptionally well engineered system. The cost of such a system could be in excess of $10,000 or more when done right. I am not sure anybody realizes how much it costs to run full high quality stainless oval tube tig welded, coated, and then covered by more custom sheets/plates to be protected from the environment and insulated to contain that fire and put it to work. If done right, it becomes the car, you are driving that artwork, tolerably efficient spectacular artwork.

WTF did I just read, its a 1995 Nissan 240sx not the Mona Lisa. Also, way to post a rear mount turbo setup out of an NSX where the motor IS IN THE BACK. Of course it makes sense to do it in that car.

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

I'd never run an KA turbo without meth or E85 in 2018, said it several times pls read...
If you opted for 93 only the reduced timing would be a necessity instead of just a recommendation and a SAFC would not work. But I never once suggested pump gas + safc by itself. I mentioned several times that it would be used in conjunction with Methanol/water.

Oh I read where you mentioned that, several times. But why would you ever recommend an SAFC, water/meth Band-Aid wombo combo when a standalone could be had for the same price? And you won't ever run out of juice? And you know exactly what the tune looks like.

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

I also never suggested an original SR20det either. The rough truth is I don't advocate either engine in a 240sx unless you are able to deal with rebuilds in 2018. The sr20's are too old to rely on heavily without a rebuild, and the KA engines even new are still fragile higher compression truck motors with too much stroke to be practical/reliable in motorsports competition event., and they too have no replacements easily available either.

You were literally bragging about swapping an SR into a 240 in a day as a viable justification for the motor. Unless you're gonna tell me you rebuilt that whole motor in a day also?

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

If I bought an sr, I hope you read the above, I'd ditch the turbo and buy a new one no questions. Its part of the cost in 2018 or it isn't worth it. Turbo tech has come so far it would be #)(@*# to use the 20 year old junk. SR20det come from Japan with 280-300bhp so 320-350bhp is barely pushing it, an extra cold day, the engineers that design engines account for those extra cold days and then more, with respect to the yield/fracture limits the engine will be exposed to under a variety of conditions. If it blows up at that level it wasn't the engines fault. I've seen enough sr20's with proper parts survive unthinkable terrors so I am fairly confident in the success rate of even the stock low compression cast piston sr20 models around 350rwhp to advocate a fresh one at that level for 10-20 years.

Finally, I would never use a redtop. Its absolutely the most ancient sr20 out there, and lacks VTC. Use the S14 version and maintain the VTC working properly for best results.

By the way, I just put together an e85 SR, with an efr turbo, id1050s, standalone, the whole jazz. It goes to the dyno on Saturday. I realize the advantage to rebuilding a motor with modern technology, but I can also have fun with a 20 year old setup in a 20 year old car, and I did for several years. By the way my motor is non VTC because I prefer the powerband feeling "older". Hate me.

Stop trying to use big words to sound smart and go back to your $10,000 turbo setup, ebay radiator cars in Florida.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by Hoffman5982

It will still cost less than an SR setup.

This is very unlikely.
Lets do the labor math:

1. turbo KA engine
2. blow KA engine trying to make 350rwhp (400bhp) cast piston seizure
3. reBuild KA engine (machine work, labor, "DOING IT TWICE")
4. Blow KA engine from stupid mistake or fail machine work
5. reBuild KA engine "doing it three times"
6. Blow KA engine more fail machine work, block is toast
7. Get another KA engine block
8. reBuild KA engine "fourth try"
...

No, this doesn't cost less than using the right engine right off the bat. Even if parts are free, machine shop plus labor costs more in terms of time. You ain't going no where fast like that, for cheap.

If you're building a car for resale value, please quit.

LOL if you spend money on a car and then lose it, you are doing it wrong. I've never done that.

Did you really say it's the turbo that makes the power?? I....I don't even know how to respond to that ridiculous statement. No. Just no. A 2871r will make more power on a KA than an SR. A gt35 will make more power on a JZ than an SR. Yeah, you can run 18psi on an sr and make the same power as the same turbo at 10psi on a ka, but that's yet another pointless comparison.

No sorry, wrong. I guess you don't build engines and cars all day. Compressor map has the max flow limitation, not the engine. All those motors will make the same peak power minus drivetrain losses with the same turbo, except for the engines where displacement pushes the compressor off the map even sooner before reaching appropriate boost levels. Like a T-28 on a V8 would.

Boost is meaningless. It is just a measure of restriction in an intake manifold. Engines do not have "boost capacity" or "boost limits" they have FUEL limits and POWER limits which have nothing to do with fluid restriction.

There are too many people that disprove that idiotic statement.

actually I used the word "forever" which is a VERY long time. Eventually even if you put a 0 miles 240sx in a clean room for 999999 years at some point that motor/car is going to disappear.

So, not wrong

[jumpman2334]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

LOL if you spend money on a car and then lose it, you are doing it wrong. I've never done that.

for the amount these cars and parts depreciate its very unlikely your statement I've quoted is true. but you go ahead and keep telling yourself that.


with that said, im not picking a side but this thread went down the shitter quick. zilvia is alive and well.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by pacotaco345

Sucks you got screwed, wanna cry about it? I ran a used s15 t28 for two years till the motor ate a throttle body screw, spit it out the exhaust, and fed it to the turbo. Said motor made 320 wheel and full boost at 3200 rpm. Hard to argue with those results.

It isn't an experience I wish on other people so I am glad to share it for their sake

CORRECTION, the only thing the SAFC CAN do is modify the MAF signal going to the ecu. Which (yes) can alter fueling to whatever you desire, but can also put you in a part of the timing map where you shouldn't be for the load that the motor is experiencing. Obviously you don't tune cars. Also, here's this for your statistical bullshit. An SAFC is $200, water meth is another $3-400. A good ROM tune is $500 from Martin at RS, and a used standalone can be had for as cheap as $400.. Why would you ever recommend the SAFC?

Have to repeat myself? Again?

As many have mentioned an SAFC is still required with a rom tune.

I also said ROM tune is highly recommended. SAFC would be required regardless and that METH system is easy to re-sell, whereas ROM TUNE for KA engine is NOT easy to re-sell.

You missed my point, I wasn't arguing the that the cost for a new radiator was more for one motor or the other. I was pointing out that you're ruining your credibility by mentioning a $10,000 turbo setup in the same thread you mentioned using a $75 radiator. Decide if you want to be an elitist prick or a cheap bastard, but don't flip flop between the two. It makes you sound like an idiot.

You just don't understand the way I think after building hundred cars. Those radiators are intended to be 'throw aways'. they are part of the vehicle that does not last as long as the vehicle. The radiator you install initially in a 20 year old engine config often gets ruined inside due to the previous owners maintenance, disgusting orange/brown tap water garbage ruins your nice new expensive radiator right off the bat. Seen it too many times. So, I start out with the cheapest radiator possible so that I can flush the system throughout weeks of driving it until satisfied the system is clean enough to install a high quality Griffen radiator or similar and trash the old ruined one.

WTF did I just read, its a 1995 Nissan 240sx not the Mona Lisa. Also, way to post a rear mount turbo setup out of an NSX where the motor IS IN THE BACK. Of course it makes sense to do it in that car.

That's where most people go wrong. To me, each car is a work of art in progress. That is why my vehicles value increases. Do you need to see the 2000rwhp corvette using twin rear mounts that spool faster than a single 2jzgte at half the power?

Oh I read where you mentioned that, several times. But why would you ever recommend an SAFC, water/meth Band-Aid wombo combo when a standalone could be had for the same price? And you won't ever run out of juice? And you know exactly what the tune looks like.

Just predicting the future. And making subtle calculations.

The calculations part goes like this (and this IS A REPEAT you can read above also)
The stand-alone is not going to protect the cast fragile KA piston engine. Even with a stand-alone, 93 octane is NOT REALLY SAFE. Some reasons sr20det gets by with that, is because lower 8.5 or 9:1 compression, plus piston oil squirters, plus shorter stroke, plus combustion chamber tech, plus the fluid(air is a fluid) pathways are intended to be high density (the motor was designed with turbocharging in mind). It all adds up. Main girdle support for stability. Coil on plug. I cannot say the same for the KA engine which lacks all of those support features for boost.


Here is the predicting the future part:
If ANYBODY turbos a factory cast piston KA engine, they are very likely to explode that engine esp if its the first time, and not even their fault. Accidents happen. Its just so extremely common you can't do it without expecting it (always expect the worst). So that's where I 'hit a wall' for this op's car. I seriously doubt he wants to turbo that 17k mile engine, then pull it out a couple months later to completely rebuild it. I don't think that is a very good plan. But that seems to be what everybody wants for it. Even the other guy blew his up and probably has less than 10k on it and claims "all is well" when I know damn well in 20k hes going to need another one.

Nah. The op strikes me more as a "set it and forget it" type. 200,000 miles of reliability is desirable in many applications. Built engines typically offer 5-10% of factory reliability, and the factory one is a ticking time bomb no matter who turbos it. So that is why I am so concerned with the "re-sale ability" of all the parts he buys. This is a money saving tactic that will also save headache, by keeping the parts non-KA specific.


Not to mention: That KA would be worth more as it sits (sell it for positive money coming in, instead of money going out). This is simple math here. Would you rather have a few months of fun then potentially spend $2000 on machine work wait weeks/months and get something back that needs rebuild again at 20k miles. And even if it doesn't, will show significant signs of skirt/piston wear due to the forged piston clearances required, and pitting/damaged rod bearing due to cold-starts using thick oil with large main bearing clearances (common but avoidable). Or just put that money towards a proper engine that the car was designed for. Rocket science?

By the way, I just put together an e85 SR, with an efr turbo, id1050s, standalone, the whole jazz. It goes to the dyno on Saturday. I realize the advantage to rebuilding a motor with modern technology, but I can also have fun with a 20 year old setup in a 20 year old car, and I did for several years. By the way my motor is non VTC because I prefer the powerband feeling "older". Hate me.

Stop trying to use big words to sound smart and go back to your $10,000 turbo setup, ebay radiator cars in Florida.

I don't use big words lol. I purposes re-write my paragraphs with smaller words because I am afraid people will accuse me using big words. What big words are too big for you? Lol I'll try to dumb down some more.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by jumpman2334

for the amount these cars and parts depreciate its very unlikely your statement I've quoted is true. but you go ahead and keep telling yourself that.


with that said, im not picking a side but this thread went down the shitter quick. zilvia is alive and well.

Dude WHERE do you LIVE? Because here in Florida, the price of 240sx goes up daily, and they become more rare and difficult to find.

Real professionals know what is worth $$ and it isn't the engine swap or power output.

Ex.1 last year I found a dealer that got a Base model 95 with 130k as a trade in. He took $2800 for it (I overpaid)
couple weeks later somebody that Mazworx sponsors came down from Canada to get it for $5000 after seeing the underside.

Ex.2 two years ago I found a random white 97 for $5200 and was able to get $9800 for it after driving it for a year.

I only cleaned them.
Out of respect I don't post what I paid and sold my built cars for because the owners might not want that info public. However if you are curious you can always PM me. That said, I tend to double my money because it isn't worth the effort to sell and re-build unless you have something left over once finished.

[spooled240]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

This is very unlikely.
Lets do the labor math:

1. turbo KA engine
2. blow KA engine trying to make 350rwhp (400bhp) cast piston seizure
3. reBuild KA engine (machine work, labor, "DOING IT TWICE")
4. Blow KA engine from stupid mistake or fail machine work
5. reBuild KA engine "doing it three times"
6. Blow KA engine more fail machine work, block is toast
7. Get another KA engine block
8. reBuild KA engine "fourth try"
...

No, this doesn't cost less than using the right engine right off the bat. Even if parts are free, machine shop plus labor costs more in terms of time. You ain't going no where fast like that, for cheap.

Ok, you're just trolling...I hope.

I've been KA-T for over 10 years on the same block and only blew the ringlands twice. Once from a bad fuel pump and the other from my stupidity. What did I do both times? Tore the head off, honed the cylinder walls and dropped new pistons in(forged the second time). I guess I still have to blow the motor two more times! lol

[Hoffman5982]

I really have nothing left to say, your statements are getting increasingly ridiculous. I feel like if we continue you're going to start telling us we're dumb if we don't spend $800 on wheel spacers.

[FaLKoN240]

This dude has taken over the thread with his "matter of fact" opinion.

You guys are constantly rebuking him. Just add him to your ignore list.

It's not your civic duty to defend the KA or to prove him wrong.

He's on that Florida water. Just let it go.

[jumpman2334]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

Dude WHERE do you LIVE? Because here in Florida, the price of 240sx goes up daily, and they become more rare and difficult to find.

it would appear we are comparing apples to oranges here. im on the west. apologies.

[feito]

Originally Posted by jumpman2334

it would appear we are comparing apples to oranges here. im on the west. apologies.

Wait, is the 240 still being produced in the west, or what?
Anyway, why isn't this shit locked? Same questions are asked by a regular noob, he gets flamed and his shit locked in no time. Same shit is asked by a guy with a nice garage, all of the sudden is a serious 4 page thread. Fuck that, all this info is already out there. Ya'll be the first ones to respond SEARCH!

[RalliartRsX]

Great way to scare away the OP with inane discussion and dick swinging.

Welcome to Zilvia OP

[jumpman2334]

Originally Posted by feito

Wait, is the 240 still being produced in the west, or what?

no, but from what I've seen you wouldn't have a problem buying one at a good/decent price.


my favorite example to use in this context is IS300s. you can usually find a handful of factory manual/LSD cars within a couple of hours drive. i was able to find mine very quickly. lots of people from the east coast buy them here because they are cheaper, more plentiful, and have less rust. some east coasters buy them here without ever laying eyes on the car and have it shipped back.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by spooled240

Ok, you're just trolling...I hope.

I've been KA-T for over 10 years on the same block and only blew the ringlands twice. Once from a bad fuel pump and the other from my stupidity. What did I do both times? Tore the head off, honed the cylinder walls and dropped new pistons in(forged the second time). I guess I still have to blow the motor two more times! lol

lol at the arguments in favor of the KA engine being

"its no problem just yank the motor do a rebuild and put it back in wtf is the big deal" only blew the ringlands twice rofl

The big deal is the whole point (apparently) of using a KA engine to begin with is because "ITS ALREADY IN THE CAR". If you have to remove the engine for ANY REASON it no longer makes sense to put it back in the car. It completely demolishes your arguments of using it because its easy. Now hes done ALL the work of swapping an engine in a car with 20,000 miles (op's car) twice or more, gfj

[Hoffman5982]

Edit: nvm it doesn’t matter

[turbo2nr]

OMG when did it get so complicated to turbo a ka????

Are we in early 2000's where were running safc + rom tunes ????
Just get a standalone and tune it correctly.

This thread hurts my head.. why is there so much discussion on how to ka-t?

Its a 240sx not a ferrari. Just mod it how you see fit.