What should I do with my 16k mile S14?

[Kviper52]

100% slam it on emusas with xxrs and duraflex kit with spray paint matte grey and strip the interior but add a super cool nrg wheel. oh! and then sell it for pennies on the dollar please and thanks.

[jumpman2334]

i cant believe no one has mentioned this yet, but you should learn to park before you start modding your car.

[Sailor]

Originally Posted by jumpman2334

i cant believe no one has mentioned this yet, but you should learn to park before you start modding your car.

Haha, this is why I love this forum

[OutlawLui]

Wheels and coilovers (but keep the original parts stored)

and only drive it on the weekends

[dmitrysgarage]

Thanks for approving my earlier replies FaLKoN240, appreciate the help!

All you guys worried that I'm a 16 year old who's going to poorly modify the car can relax. I have a nice shop and am pretty experienced in this sort of thing.

Originally Posted by Hoffman5982

If you swap out a nearly new KA for an old, beat ass SR you truly are an idiot. Want more power? Put a t28 and get a proper tune. You will have as much/more power than an SR, more torque, and it will be more reliable because the motor has 16k miles on it.

Yea that's why I was saying I was iffy on the SR idea, seems like a waste of a good new engine. Plus my power goals aren't too crazy based on what I'm reading.

Originally Posted by pacotaco345

If you have the time/resources/money to modify the car while keeping it as nice as it is now then by all means do whatever you want. Just don't make it worse and you'll be fine. Can't please everyone!

Not trying to please everyone, because fuck that it's my car. Wanted to find a group to bounce ideas off and hear what everyone thought. Got some nice PMs and some good replies here. I also figured it'd be an interesting car to share with the people here. Whatever I do will be well executed, even if it's not someone's thing.

Originally Posted by Hoffman5982

Get an enthalpy mail order tune if you only want it short term. Get a real tune if you want it to last. With a t28 at 10-12psi it’ll never break and you’ll still make around 280-300whp

I generally get custom dyno tunes. I'd optimally find someone I trust locally to do the actual tune. Keep in mind I'm really just getting into the Japanese import scene so I don't know anyone. Part of the reason I joined the site, I figured there's lots of Houston guys here. May consider tuning it myself after some research. Figure out if it's cost effective and time effective, I'm sure there is a ton of good information out there.

Right now I have no idea what software/hardware/stand alone systems are good choices for these cars. I'm also out of practice. I haven't tuned a car since my G8. I used HP Tuners back then. I started working on new cars after. It wasn't practical for me to try to figure out how to do it with little to no public info.

Think that 280-300whp would be reliable on 93 pump gas, with a nice front mount? Keep in mind I'm in the Houston heat. I'd rather not run meth or e85. I'd be more than happy with even 250whp from this little car. I'm sure there are weight savings to be had while looking stock and not making any permanent changes. Feels like my goal is going to wind up being fun to drive, non-permanent and reliable. Something that doesn't require constant maintenance.

oLemurs: KA doesnt have rocker arms i think thats enough to get over the sr
FaLKoN240: Have/had the most reliable car on my drift team. 3 years and my KA-T going strong
ixfxi: not saying its the worst engine out there, but its surely not one of the best. poor layout, rough idle, weak internals. yeah, boost it if you want to shorten the lifespan significantly
Hoffman5982: I've owned both, rebuilt both, and tracked both. KA was easier to deal with imo, and the better bottom end power is much more desirable than a higher rev limit(300 whole rpm) for me.
Kingtal0n: At this point I'd consider a KA 240sx an exotic engine swap.
wolfpack: Hoffman didn't you blow up your KA right after you boosted it?

Dang what did I start. Sounds to me like both are viable choices. I'm kinda leaing towards keeping the KA since it's so fresh. I'm not going to try to squeeze every drop out of it. If the KA pops I can either rebuild or consider a swap, for now these engines are still very affordable.

Originally Posted by Malik

So the verdict is ka turbo wheels and coils

Starting to feel that way.

Originally Posted by jumpman2334

i cant believe no one has mentioned this yet, but you should learn to park before you start modding your car.

Pretty sure I can park however I want, in this case with the sun behind me, in what is obviously an empty and private lot. You seem pretty upset about it though, doing ok man? Need a hug?

[afishysilvia]

^^^ Quoter Extraordinaire, well executed

[spooled240]

Originally Posted by dmitrysgarage

Yea that's why I was saying I was iffy on the SR idea, seems like a waste of a good new engine. Plus my power goals aren't too crazy based on what I'm reading.

Think that 280-300whp would be reliable on 93 pump gas, with a nice front mount? Keep in mind I'm in the Houston heat. I'd rather not run meth or e85. I'd be more than happy with even 250whp from this little car. I'm sure there are weight savings to be had while looking stock and not making any permanent changes. Feels like my goal is going to wind up being fun to drive, non-permanent and reliable. Something that doesn't require constant maintenance.

Dang what did I start. Sounds to me like both are viable choices. I'm kinda leaing towards keeping the KA since it's so fresh. I'm not going to try to squeeze every drop out of it. If the KA pops I can either rebuild or consider a swap, for now these engines are still very affordable.

Turbo the KA! I think it would be awesome if you kept the engine looking stock and used as much bolt-on parts from Nissan as possible:
-Tomei cast manifold
-s15 gt28
-Tomei elbow and downpipe to stock exhaust
-stock s14 sr20det airbox, intake, hotpipe
-stock sr20det coldpipe on SR20 fan shroud
-740cc nismo injectors, z32 mafs(will bolt on to stock airbox with redrill) and a enthalpy or JWT flash
-s15 SMIC (a Greddy FMIC would be nice, but you would have to move the battery, remove the fogs, cut a hole, etc.)

[dmitrysgarage]

Originally Posted by spooled240

Turbo the KA! I think it would be awesome if you kept the engine looking stock and used as much bolt-on parts from Nissan as possible:
-Tomei cast manifold
-s15 gt28
-Tomei elbow and downpipe to stock exhaust
-stock s14 sr20det airbox, intake, hotpipe
-stock sr20det coldpipe on SR20 fan shroud
-s15 SMIC
-740cc nismo injectors, z32 mafs(will bolt on to stock airbox with redrill) and a enthalpy or JWT flash

Thanks for putting this together, really appreciate it!

If I go this route I think going very OEM looking is definitely the goal. I've been researching the Tomei manifold, I've heard good things about the brand. Any reason they cast these? I haven't used a cast aftermarket manifold in a long time. It would look more OEM for sure, although coating stainless can have that look too if it's not made from a million cuts.

The S15 SMIC won't be too small to deal with the Houston heat at 10psi+?

On the fuel side, will the 740cc injectors on stock pump work for my power goals? No aftermarket FPR or BAP needed right? I generally am not a fan of BAPs, would rather go bigger on the pump.

Overall this sounds like a pretty clean setup.

[dizzariot]

...well I'm pleasantly supirsed. Want to trade for an OEM grey hatch?

[cbeuglas]

You will have to have at least a new fuel pump 255 or higher. Also you will have to have a 300zx fuel filter. There are a ton of good write-ups on doing a KA-T setup. It will just take a little serching. Good luck!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Kingtal0n]

The way to do a turbo KA in 2018



is with an rear mounted oil-less cartridge.

It means you leave everything alone in the engine bay. The stock manifold can stay on the engine. And no need to remove the pan to drill a oil return. Those two things will prevent hassles returning the car to stock should the need arise.

Methanol progressive injection is a must. You use a SAFC with ~440cc injectors and stock computer to make up for the cost of the system. Avoid rom tunes and stand-alones at all costs. There is no reliable tuning scheme for the KA engine unless you do it yourself, and all the hardware becomes instant-junk the minute you decide to sell it, so I am sharing the real secret to making it work. The stock computer is absolutely perfect except you need more fuel and more octane. methanol injection runs the octane up around 116 with 50/50 mix, and the SAFC merges increased fueling with larger injectors seamlessly. Closed loop still works so it doesn't get bad fuel economy or foul plugs. The bypass requires recirculated so its silent and never washes the cylinder walls down with fuel. Everything is set up to around 10psi of boost. The motor needs 254-260* duration cams, springs, and shouldn't be spun much over 6k if at all ever because that is the big internal, unconquerable weakness of the KA engine. Which is why it doesn't make sense to use.

maths at 10psi of boost
146cid*6000/3456 = 253cfm * .069 = 17.48lb/min, 10/14.5psi = .6896 pressure ratio, 17.48 * 1.6896 = 295.5 brake horsepower * .88 (12% drivetrain loss) = 260rwhp

[dmitrysgarage]

Originally Posted by dizzariot

...well I'm pleasantly supirsed. Want to trade for an OEM grey hatch?

:-), I'll have to pass for the moment but thanks!

Originally Posted by cbeuglas

You will have to have at least a new fuel pump 255 or higher. Also you will have to have a 300zx fuel filter. There are a ton of good write-ups on doing a KA-T setup. It will just take a little serching. Good luck!

Thanks for the info! Wasn't sure on the stock size. If my math is right a 255 should hold 375hp crank on a turbo setup.

Assuming:

- 0.34kg per hour of fuel for each horsepower, very conservative.
- 0.755kg/l average density of E10 pump gasoline.

(375 bhp * 0.34 kg) / 0.755 kg/l = 169 lph

Based on the data sheet the walbro 255 makes 50gph at 60psi, that's 189lph. So that fits within the conservative 169lph estimate.

Injector duty seems like it might be tight based on spooled240's suggestion of 740cc.

169 lph / 60 min * 1000 = 2817 cc
2817 cc / 4 injectors = 704cc

That's 95% duty at 740cc injectors. But my 0.34kg is probably too conservative. In reality the car probably wont ever make 375bhp either.

I wouldn't install too much pump personally. You start to over heat the fuel in a return system. For example I converted my Mustang to a return with an aftermarket fuel rail and post-rail FPR. I'm running dual 450s and the heat this adds to the circulating fuel is huge, around 456W at 60psi. Even a single 450 is 228W, that's like almost 4x light bulbs in your tank. That's a bad time for a street car. Riding around on long rides will get that fuel cooking especially as it gets low. I mitigate mine largely by avoding going under half a tank if I'm testing on the street. That really limits my range unless I switch to the pump gas tune. Sending vacuum to my FPR to reduce pressure at idle helps reduce heat a little bit too.

This looks like a good kit from Walbro: http://walbrofuelpumps.com/1995-1999...-cyl-2-4l.html

I'm reading going to read through some of those KA-T threads in the AM.

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

Methanol progressive injection is a must. You use a SAFC with ~440cc injectors and stock computer to make up for the cost of the system. Avoid rom tunes and stand-alones at all costs. There is no reliable tuning scheme for the KA engine unless you do it yourself, and all the hardware becomes instant-junk the minute you decide to sell it, so I am sharing the real secret to making it work. The stock computer is absolutely perfect except you need more fuel and more octane. methanol injection runs the octane up around 116 with 50/50 mix, and the SAFC merges increased fueling with larger injectors seamlessly. Closed loop still works so it doesn't get bad fuel economy or foul plugs. The bypass requires recirculated so its silent and never washes the cylinder walls down with fuel. Everything is set up to around 10psi of boost. The motor needs 254-260* duration cams, springs, and shouldn't be spun much over 6k if at all ever because that is the big internal, unconquerable weakness of the KA engine. Which is why it doesn't make sense to use.

maths at 10psi of boost
146cid*6000/3456 = 253cfm * .069 = 17.48lb/min, 10/14.5psi = .6896 pressure ratio, 17.48 * 1.6896 = 295.5 brake horsepower * .88 (12% drivetrain loss) = 260rwhp

Interesting, thanks for the write up! How's the lag on a rear mount? I know these are popular on a lot of new cars too. I have used methanol/water in the past before and it's a great way to add cooling/fuel/octane. I was just hoping to avoid it on something like this build. I suppose a boost controller w/ wideband can provide safety if I run dry or even take a signal from the meth system if possible.

Definitely don't want to lose closed loop for a street build like this. What's causing closed loop issues on other builds? I don't mind the idea of using the stock computer, most my projects have been stock computers including the Mustang. If I'm understanding the scenario correctly, am I basically doing the fuel tuning with the Super AFC system as a piggy back controller and compensating for the meth fueling being injected in lieu of tuning the factory computer itself. I'm thumbing through the manual (will read in AM) but it looks like it piggy backs into all the usual stuff. This is definitely an interesting option, hell the controller on it's own even with a more traditional setup seems like a great option to let me tune it myself.

[TheRealSy90]

SAFCs belong in the garbage.

[OBEEWON]

That garage is so good. More pictures of the rest of your cars.

Originally Posted by wolfpack

Hoffman didn't you blow up your KA right after you boosted it?

^^was about to say this.

KA boom guess who stepped in the room.

[dmitrysgarage]

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

SAFCs belong in the garbage.

What's the disadvantage of piggy backs like this SAFC? I've never used one. I've only used stock ecus that I've tuned or had other people tune and stand alones like haltech.

[jumpman2334]

Originally Posted by dmitrysgarage

Pretty sure I can park however I want, in this case with the sun behind me, in what is obviously an empty and private lot. You seem pretty upset about it though, doing ok man? Need a hug?

you are the one that seems pretty upset/defensive over a harmless joke..?


piggybacks are seriously watered down standalones; its just better in the long run for you to spend the cash and get a standalone. ive seen countless threads where people cannot get a piggyback to work as they can be finicky as it has to work in conjunction with your stock computer, standalones replace the stock ecu and 'stand alone'. standalones allow you to tune/modify and monitor just about every engine related electrical component.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by dmitrysgarage

Interesting, thanks for the write up! How's the lag on a rear mount? I know these are popular on a lot of new cars too. I have used methanol/water in the past before and it's a great way to add cooling/fuel/octane. I was just hoping to avoid it on something like this build. I suppose a boost controller w/ wideband can provide safety if I run dry or even take a signal from the meth system if possible.

Definitely don't want to lose closed loop for a street build like this. What's causing closed loop issues on other builds? I don't mind the idea of using the stock computer, most my projects have been stock computers including the Mustang. If I'm understanding the scenario correctly, am I basically doing the fuel tuning with the Super AFC system as a piggy back controller and compensating for the meth fueling being injected in lieu of tuning the factory computer itself. I'm thumbing through the manual (will read in AM) but it looks like it piggy backs into all the usual stuff. This is definitely an interesting option, hell the controller on it's own even with a more traditional setup seems like a great option to let me tune it myself.

The technology behind oil-less cartridges is vastly different from what we are used to. They spool incredibly fast even in the rear. They also flow more than you will ever need. There is a twin-rear mounted vette packing 2000 horsepower around here somewhere that torque comes on like a blower. I think the smallest oil-less turbo is worth around 500bhp or something crazy.


SAFC is 'garbage' 99% of the time. the only time you want one is when you turbo a KA or you have an atmospheric bypass or non-recirculation setup on a stock computer. I'll go through the pros and cons now after some explanations.

SAFC alows you to dial in fuel perfectly. You can get any A/F you want, just like a stand-alone. Because KA/SR use a MAF sensor, the voltage curve is parabolic so at low flow rates there is a LOT of resolution where it is needed.

The down side is that it does NOT control timing. It means you will have more timing than you want. Luckily, there are ways to deal with this. #1 it has a distributor, so you can easily pull a couple degrees global timing right off the bat to help. #2 is don't run more than 10psi of boost, which mitigates the need for seriously retarded timing. #3 is the methanol injection, which raises octane and prevents the advanced timing from destroying the engine. It will actually make the most/more power like this (as opposed to have a 100% pump gas tune). Plus the addition of methanol means a richer a/f so you can push the limits of the injectors if necessary.

As for closed loop. The reason you lose closed loop on some setups that use OEM computers is because of the step size in ms of fuel control. Lets say you are at idle, 14.8:1, and closed loop decides to add some fuel. Well the factory injectors are like 270cc (something tiny like that) so the computer adds like a half a millisecond or more of fuel. the step size is around .5 of a ms (.0005 seconds of fuel). For a 270cc injector, this is nothing. But for a 440 or 600cc injector this can bring your 14.8 down to like 13's or even 12's and kill the motor due to the massive swing in fueling. The computer quickly loses track, all it see's is "rich now" and starts pulling fuel. Well guess what, it only made 1 step in the rich direction, but now its so rich that it can take several steps in the "lean direction" before" all the excess fuel washes out and the motor is too lean to stay running. The larger the injector, the worse the control.


So lets pro and con this bitch
SAFC setup pros:
SAFC is Cheap
SAFC is re-sellable
Methanol kit is re-sellable
more power on meth with stock timing and a little boost
meth adds more fuel to the table
water reduces EGT and makes it safer to run on pump fuel
tune it from the driver seat on the street

Cons:
Can't control timing
people will say its garbage all the time


now lets look at the rom tune pros and cons:
Rom tune pro:
Might plug in and go just fine


cons:
expensive and Not easy to re-sell a KA turbo rom tune (bye $500)
can't re-tune it easily (need to mail chips away)
Still needs a SAFC most of the time to bring fueling back in line (mail order tunes are not perfect, even if they are) unless you want to keep re-mailing chips which apparently is acceptable
Reduced power 'for safety' because low timing on pump gas with significant compression is the only way to keep it safe
Still a risk due to high temperature and no water to control EGT, given the engines history (not a turbo motor originally)


A stand-alone is essentially the same cons as a rom tune, becuase you still need reduced timing on pump fuels, except now you have a $1500 KA stand-alone you can't re-sell instead of a $500 rom tune. It won't need a SAFC though and you could tune it yourself are additional pros. And its not like you are going to run much more boost on a stock KA engine even with control over the timing,Because you are pushing the limits of pump fuel and high compression, with a fragile cast piston that won't take any abuse at all.

[dmitrysgarage]

Originally Posted by jumpman2334

you are the one that seems pretty upset/defensive over a harmless joke..?


piggybacks are seriously watered down standalones; its just better in the long run for you to spend the cash and get a standalone. ive seen countless threads where people cannot get a piggyback to work as they can be finicky as it has to work in conjunction with your stock computer, standalones replace the stock ecu and 'stand alone'. standalones allow you to tune/modify and monitor just about every engine related electrical component.

You got me, I'm super upset bro ;-) /ragequit

Interesting, so the reason I never tried a piggyback was because I always tuned stock computers until I got into newer cars. Then piggy backs were usually much more basic options for people who were afraid of voiding warranties by tuning stock computers or putting in a standalone. However, this Apexi SAFC seems pretty advanced compared to what I've seen people using. Most the other (non-240) piggyback systems I saw were prefab canned tunes only, no customization, this seems actually tuneable. Hence why it seems interesting.

I am familiar with standalones, and really the cost isn't the biggest factor here. Overall I want to do this thing right.

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

The technology behind oil-less cartridges is vastly different from what we are used to. They spool incredibly fast even in the rear. They also flow more than you will ever need. There is a twin-rear mounted vette packing 2000 horsepower around here somewhere that torque comes on like a blower. I think the smallest oil-less turbo is worth around 500bhp or something crazy.

Yea since I made my post I was reading on comp turbos site and looking at the specs and pricing. Really cool and seams remote oriented, sounds like maybe reliability in a top mount isn't appropriate? I think they spool so fast because it's all ball bearing carts right?

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

SAFC alows you to dial in fuel perfectly. You can get any A/F you want, just like a stand-alone. Because KA/SR use a MAF sensor, the voltage curve is parabolic so at low flow rates there is a LOT of resolution where it is needed.

So does this use MAF + wideband to figure out the mass air input and the lambda of the output? That's what I'd expect to get a perfect setpoint for A/F.

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

The down side is that it does NOT control timing. It means you will have more timing than you want.

That does kinda suck, I really like being able to control timing directly especially if using a variety of fuel. Though I'd probably just tune this for 93.

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

As for closed loop. The reason you lose closed loop on some setups that use OEM computers is because of the step size in ms of fuel control. Lets say you are at idle, 14.8:1, and closed loop decides to add some fuel. Well the factory injectors are like 270cc (something tiny like that) so the computer adds like a half a millisecond or more of fuel. the step size is around .5 of a ms (.0005 seconds of fuel). For a 270cc injector, this is nothing. But for a 440 or 600cc injector this can bring your 14.8 down to like 13's or even 12's and kill the motor due to the massive swing in fueling. The computer quickly loses track, all it see's is "rich now" and starts pulling fuel. Well guess what, it only made 1 step in the rich direction, but now its so rich that it can take several steps in the "lean direction" before" all the excess fuel washes out and the motor is too lean to stay running. The larger the injector, the worse the control.

Gotcha. I see you're saying the standalone is the same downsides as the ROM, however why wouldn't I be able to control timing or keep timing higher with meth + standalone? If money wasn't the big concern, what would you do?

[FaLKoN240]

I have a rom tune partnered with a SAFC...

Most of what he said is true. My set up didn't really start ripping until I leaned it out a bit.

[Kingtal0n]

oh if money is no concern. Put a haltech on it if they make a PnP version and go E85 flex fuel.


The big issue here is, stock bottom end, cast piston, high compression. It means 93 will never really be good enough by itself. Because even if perfectly tuned on 93 one little hiccup will destroy the motor and you'll be left with no engine because it could be very difficult to find another nice condition KA. Haltech will support that engine much better than OEM ecu because you can also monitor and log all the critical details, such as fuel pressure, oil pressure, oil temp, iat, etc.. and tune it to alert you immediately.

If on the other hand you could find a spare KA and have it sitting on the shelf. And don't mind swapping it in later at some point. Then sure why not try 93 and see what happens.

See what Im saying, better just to protect the engine you have. And 93 isn't going to protect shit. You need meth or E85 to ensure ensure the safety of that motor. Which severely opens the timing window and makes stock-ish timing safe at the power level the stock bottom end is comfortable at, making a stand-alone pseudo unnecessary.

sounds like maybe reliability in a top mount isn't appropriate

Top mount is as good as anything else if done right. It takes some finess and you will want a high quality manifold but ultimately it would be just as reliable as anything else and cheaper and less fab work than a rear mount.
I was just thinking you could leave the engine bay more stock if you had a rear mount. And convert the car back to stock easily if you wanted to. Its more reversible, and less KA specific so you aren't left with a bunch of expensive KA engine parts you can't sell or give away.

tuning it with a SAFC is just like tuning with anything else. You the driver drive the car and watch the wideband and adjust the dial on the SAFC until the numbers showing up match whatever you as the tuner think they should say. If you need help with that I can provide more details also.

why wouldn't I be able to control timing or keep timing higher with meth + standalone?

I'm not sure exactly what this is asking. But I can tell you this much: when it comes to forced induction on high compression engines with weak cast pistons, you don't want the timing to make the power. You let boost do the work and keep timing as far back as possible to prevent cylinder pressure from spiking up and ruining parts. You are better off with 1-2psi extra or some other power adder, and 2-3* less timing to make more power than the other way around. For example a guy with an N/A engine is sitting at 18* and wants to push 20* but the motor is pinging with 20* sometimes. The 2 extra degrees is making 8-12 ft*lbs more torque so the guy thinks its worth it? Hell no. Because he can pull timing back to 15* and run a 50 shot of nitrous, make 42 extra horsepower and far less risky than that 2 extra degrees of timing.
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...00HD-Questions

The stand-alone isn't going to let you run more timing than the stock computer. It will allow you to run less. It means you could potentially push a bit more boost pressure than 10psi and have much less timing, and also control larger injectors safely. It would be safer this way. But there is no guarantee that the stock bottom end will live at that level, I've tuned hundreds of engines but only one turbo KA and it was a looooooong time ago so all bets are off as far as my experience with how much power they are comfortable at. The traditional line of thinking is that 7psi any engine can take that 40% increase in power np. But after that it can be sketchy. I think 50-65% increase is my max comfort level for a KA engine that I expected to last a long time. I think 80-100% increase is a bit much. I'm sure it would live for a while its just how long of a while.

[TheRealSy90]

Your car does not have a factory wideband o2 sensor. You're giving the capabilities of the factory engine management way too much credit, the stock ecu is not so "tunable" like other factory ecu's on other cars. You'd have to install a wideband and "tune" the SAFC while monitoring it, but the ecu or safc is never seeing that wideband o2 reading.


Also, you don't have to "mail away" a rom tuned ecu to get another tune. The tuner (RS Enthalpy for example) sends you a new pair of chips in the mail and you install the new chips all while still being able to drive the car.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

Your car does not have a factory wideband o2 sensor. You're giving the capabilities of the factory engine management way too much credit, the stock ecu is not so "tunable" like other factory ecu's on other cars. You'd have to install a wideband and "tune" the SAFC while monitoring it, but the ecu or safc is never seeing that wideband o2 reading.


Also, you don't have to "mail away" a rom tuned ecu to get another tune. The tuner (RS Enthalpy for example) sends you a new pair of chips in the mail and you install the new chips all while still being able to drive the car.

I fixed my post. I hadn't realized about the chips. However, having to wait for chips is the same thing as having to wait for the computer to come back re-tuned if the old tune was no good to drive on in the first place. Any near-corrections could be made up for with a SAFC though so I can see how in some situations you could keep driving on the SAFC with the old chips while waiting for new ones. Theres nothing wrong with a rom tune, they are highly recommended, I just figured the car would never be run without methanol and never at high boost pressures so the stock ECU would work good. Not alot of power means 370cc injectors are fine, 250-260rwhp + oem ecu on meth no problem there. Maintain the meth system and use one with fail-safes and that KA motor should last forever and will be super-clean inside, free of deposits and oily residues thanks to water injection.

And it would pack something like 15-20% more torque than an sr20det throughout the range so it can't compare to a stock SR as the KA will have more area under the curve. Like a 5L V8 with only 260 horsepower still moves the car much faster from the dead-stop because 400ft*lbs of torque at 2000rpm is what counts at that moment, not peak HP. It makes the car more fun at low speeds. I had a 97 w/ 40k miles and I was fairly close to doing all this but I realized 250 to the wheels wasn't enough, I needed at least double that. Its gota go 10's to keep up with all these new vettes and teslas now. How crazy fast are things getting?

[dmitrysgarage]

Originally Posted by FaLKoN240

I have a rom tune partnered with a SAFC... Most of what he said is true. My set up didn't really start ripping until I leaned it out a bit.

Would you go the rom+safc route if you were doing it all over again?

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

oh if money is no concern. Put a haltech on it if they make a PnP version and go E85 flex fuel.

I wouldn't say money is no concern, but I like to do things right. If I can't afford it I'd rather not do it than hack it up. That being said I do alright, not going to stress out over not being able to resell a tune. I like getting a good deal and I do my own labor, which saves a lot of money. I don't want to waste money on something that is beyond what the project requires. I can appreciate aesthetics of course, but they also have limited value to me. Like I don't know who's paying $7-10K for a set of wheels, that's crazy to me. Then again maybe those people truly don't have a concern financially.

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

The big issue here is, stock bottom end, cast piston, high compression. It means 93 will never really be good enough by itself. Because even if perfectly tuned on 93 one little hiccup will destroy the motor and you'll be left with no engine because it could be very difficult to find another nice condition KA. Haltech will support that engine much better than OEM ecu because you can also monitor and log all the critical details, such as fuel pressure, oil pressure, oil temp, iat, etc.. and tune it to alert you immediately.

Not a huge fan of E85 when you let cars sit at times. Also it can be so inconstant in quality, at least here. I can buy Gulf E98 or Sunoco E85-R by the barrel, but it's relatively pricey. I'd like to try and keep it pump gas if possible. However, I ran into fuel quality issues with 93 in the Mustang. That's why I'm using race gas, but keep in mind I'm also squeezing out around 200hp/liter at 22 degrees of timing and 11:1 compression. I do hear you on the shortcomings of the KA, but in comparison I'm going to be shooting for 125/hp liter with 9.5:1 compression. I'm hoping that's doable with safe timing and boost without resorting to race gas or meth. If I have to get into a lot of timing like you're saying that will definitely require meth or race gas. Ill look into plug and play systems, I'm sure someone makes one.

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

I'm not sure exactly what this is asking. But I can tell you this much: when it comes to forced induction on high compression engines with weak cast pistons, you don't want the timing to make the power. You let boost do the work and keep timing as far back as possible to prevent cylinder pressure from spiking up and ruining parts. You are better off with 1-2psi extra or some other power adder, and 2-3* less timing to make more power than the other way around. For example a guy with an N/A engine is sitting at 18* and wants to push 20* but the motor is pinging with 20* sometimes. The 2 extra degrees is making 8-12 ft*lbs more torque so the guy thinks its worth it? Hell no. Because he can pull timing back to 15* and run a 50 shot of nitrous, make 42 extra horsepower and far less risky than that 2 extra degrees of timing.

I think I misunderstood you. You were saying "A stand-alone is essentially the same cons as a rom tune, becuase you still need reduced timing on pump fuels" and I took that to mean I wouldn't be able to reduce timing even with a standalone and was asking why. I totally agree with you on keeping the timing back. You want to make power with boost, not compression and timing. I would normally see where I get with reasonable boost levels, sometimes more boost doesn't give more power if you're at peak efficiency. Then I start working timing back in to a safe level. Like you said there is no sense in riding the knock sensors and it's not worth adding 2 degrees for a few extra horsepower. That's why I didn't push past 22 degrees on the Mustang.

I really like with the way some new cars tune spark advance, you can set a base spark advance and then it will walk it up/down. So normally you're at say 18 degrees and it will attempt to add more timing and you might limit it to say 4 degrees to wind up at 22 degrees as the max it will attempt. That's how my Mustang is tuned, base 18, +/- 4 degrees. In my case the fuel is good and it hits 22 degrees almost instantly when I get into power enrichment. My 93 tune is based at 14 degrees for comparison. The idea is to set a modest base advance and if the fuel is good it will add more timing on it's own, if not it won't or will reduce timing even further.

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

Your car does not have a factory wideband o2 sensor. You're giving the capabilities of the factory engine management way too much credit, the stock ecu is not so "tunable" like other factory ecu's on other cars. You'd have to install a wideband and "tune" the SAFC while monitoring it, but the ecu or safc is never seeing that wideband o2 reading. Also, you don't have to "mail away" a rom tuned ecu to get another tune. The tuner (RS Enthalpy for example) sends you a new pair of chips in the mail and you install the new chips all while still being able to drive the car.

I realize it's not factory wideband. I was just thinking maybe safc would be able to take one as an input, which in theory, why not right? But, seems not. You could definitely pair one with a boost controller to act as a safety and cut boost. For the mail away, the ones I'm more used to is emailing a file around, but I see what you're saying. The email route is great, you can just be on the phone at the dyno emailing logs and tunes back and forth.

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

How crazy fast are things getting?

Seems like everyone is running 9s and 10s these days.

[FaLKoN240]

Originally Posted by dmitrysgarage

Would you go the rom+safc route if you were doing it all over again?

I'm big on doing it right or doing it twice. Like I said, out of my drift team of 6 to 7 cars (at our biggest) I had the most reliable, although homebrew pieced together car. My set up is simple as heck. All bolt on aftermarket or repurposed OEM.

The ROM tunes are safe (read RICH TUNE), resellable if you don't get too crazy/unique with your set up and retunable.

Which is why I have the SAFC to make small minor corrections. To lean it out in the lower RPM ranges to pull a few more ponies out without blowing up the motor.

If you want to discuss it further, PM me.

[Kingtal0n]

the big issue here is a weak engine not designed for high output as it sits. 93 octane with a great tune can still blow up in your face with no warning. That is why meth/E85, its insurance.

With no insurance? it won't matter. Rom tune + safc is as good as any stand-alone when using 93. Stand-alone just allows more logging and fine tuning, which adds 100+ hours to the job, and might reveal 5-10 horsepower, but also leaves more room for mistakes.

What I do depends on budget and goal. A high power goal with 20k, could make 700bhp with an LS engine for 10+ years and if one pops you shit $250 for longblocks. A Handling goal I'd probably shoot for an SR20 because of the weight balance and no need for max power, 350rwhp is typical stock engine longevity territory. Although there are also aluminum six speed LS swaps available with +125~ HP over that and just as handle-able. There really isn't any place for the KA in performance land, it isn't really an option for any of these goals. Except the one where you just want to keep the engine bay looking somewhat original for some reason, and willing to spend more than the other swaps to do that. My org idea was to turbo for a while see how much it would take (350? on meth/water, maybe) and see how I like it, and if I did enjoy it enough, swap in a better engine and leave everything pretty much right where it was (already setup for rear mount). Thus the avoiding of KA specific parts, yank it and forget it, you didn't buy anything for it.

[Hoffman5982]

Originally Posted by OBEEWON

^^was about to say this.

KA boom guess who stepped in the room.

It blowing up wasn't a fault of the motor. Even if it was I'd still rather have a KA than SR. But that's just, like, my opinion

[dmitrysgarage]

Originally Posted by FaLKoN240

If you want to discuss it further, PM me.

Thanks for the info, I really appreciate it and it's going to help a lot figuring my plans! Will definitely shoot you a PM if I think that's the route I'm going to go.

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

With no insurance? it won't matter. Rom tune + safc is as good as any stand-alone when using 93. Stand-alone just allows more logging and fine tuning, which adds 100+ hours to the job, and might reveal 5-10 horsepower, but also leaves more room for mistakes.

It shouldn't take 100+ hours to setup a good tune. I'm reading about this mega squirt P&P kit, looks pretty much perfect:

https://www.diyautotune.com/product/...-manual-trans/
http://www.megasquirtpnp.com/docs/ms...ns9501_s14.php
http://www.megasquirtpnp.com/docs/ms...r=13&isModel=2

Wideband o2, closed loop, boost controller, flex fuel sensor support, canbus input, etc... Man seems like it's pretty much a "do everything the new car's ECUs are doing" kit, with the exception of being speed density where most new cars are mass flow. Need to research it more, but that sounds a lot more capable than rom + safc at quick glance. The MS3 Pro looks even better, maf support, etc...

I totally understand what you mean about the insurance of high octane. I'm just saying if the timing has to be too aggressive for comfort on 93 I can go to meth, race gas or E85 if I have to.

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

What I do depends on budget and goal. A high power goal with 20k, could make 700bhp with an LS engine for 10+ years and if one pops you shit $250 for longblocks.

Man I wish my Coyote engine popping was $250.

[spooled240]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

There really isn't any place for the KA in performance land, it isn't really an option for any of these goals. Except the one where you just want to keep the engine bay looking somewhat original for some reason, and willing to spend more than the other swaps to do that.

Lol bolting on a turbo kit on the KA is not going to be more expensive than swapping in an entirely different motor.

The benefit of the KA-T route is the fact that you can leave the everything intact. This means you keep A/C, heat, cruise, etc.

If we actually had the sr20 in the schassis's here in the states, I don't think people would have started swapping in the KA because it's the best engine..everyone knows that it isn't. People started building the KA because but it's already there and can actually take some boost.

[5280VertDET]

Don't forget about these:

Nismotronic:
http://www.nismotronic.com/faq.php

Nistune:
https://nistune.com/faq/faq-general

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by spooled240

Lol bolting on a turbo kit on the KA is not going to be more expensive than swapping in an entirely different motor.

The benefit of the KA-T route is the fact that you can leave the everything intact. This means you keep A/C, heat, cruise, etc.

If we actually had the sr20 in the schassis's here in the states, I don't think people would have started swapping in the KA because it's the best engine..everyone knows that it isn't. People started building the KA because but it's already there and can actually take some boost.

good manifold $400+
good turbo $600+
lines and gaskets $200
Rom tune $500

I could go on but even coming close to the price of a boost ready, same output, higher mpg engine that literally was designed for the car originally you'd be @*$@# to continue. Think of it as, you are fixing the car back to the way it was originally intended, some would say