At last, depowered the rack.

[Bigsyke]

While back I disconnected the PS system. I kept the pully/pump for a belt tensioner, but removed everything else and looped the lines. Wasnt too bad, but I was conserned about the steering linkeage getting too worn.

I was worried about the splines stripping on the linkeage, so my mission was to de-power the rack. I've only found 1 writeup on the web -a Miata.

After 2 days its done, some fine tuning and wow, night and day difference. I removed the rack and pinion;

Everything was a bitch to get off. Nissan made sure you needed proper tools for this. 1st problem was the torx bolts. I used an 8mm socket. After drilling out the punch and finally getting the rack taken apart, I was dripping in sweat and blood.

Got the pinion out, removed the center seal

Got some Amsoil grease, new Moog tie rods, and put her back together. I cut all the lines and crimped them because its not needed.

After install, there is a Tensioner type thing that holds the pinion steady, I had to loosen that a bit, but its spring activated so there is still some light tension.

Finally a PS/manual setup that semi rivals a FWD car. I love it.

For all you guys who eliminated your power steering, this is a simple/cheap way to run a single belt for both your water pump and alternator.

parts needed:
SOHC Lower Alt bracket
SOHC Upper Alt bracket
SOHC water outlet (DOHC hits belt)
35" 3 rib belt

the water pump pulley and the outer most crank pulley are 3 rib but the alternator is 4 rib so you need to run it on the inner most set of ribs (as shown in the pics)

You'll need to use a spacer between the alternator and the upper alt. bracket. I used a exhaust manifold washer and it worked perfectly. you will also notice the belts will hit a certain spot on the upper alt bracket, but its nothing very minor grinding wont fix, you can see the spot on the 7th picture down.

The factory lower hose also lined up fine.

tested it to 8k+ rpm, with no issues.


Big thank you to my buddy Anthony (1991silvia), who is the one who figured out this setup.

http://flyinmiata.com/tech/depower.php?x=1
http://www.ka-t.org/forums/viewtopic...teering+delete

[soreballz]

So, compared to the way you had it before with the looped lines, how does it feel?

[Bigsyke]

It feels more managable. However mostly due to adjusting the tension.

Once the grease heats up its alot easier to steer.

[chibo]

I don't know how you do this with any decent sized tires, I dailied a S13 with 245's up front and broken-ass power steering. I almost died a few times... and parking lots sucked. I'm not a weak guy either.

[Addicted2Kouki]

Originally Posted by chibo

I don't know how you do this with any decent sized tires, I dailied a S13 with 245's up front and broken-ass power steering. I almost died a few times... and parking lots sucked. I'm not a weak guy either.

Yeah, I wouldnt wanna deal with parking lots with no power steering.

[Wake]

i used to go on mountain runs on the regular with a failing pump so i just kep refilling the fluid so it wasnt too bad but parking lots with no fluid was a whole nother story. im sure the "manual" rack conversion is proper tho. as long its worth the effort (and price) then its a worthwhile upgrade IMHO.

[420sx]

not sure what kind of driving you do, i won't drift with no ps. definately no tandem.

[DisEpyon]

iv done the same with my car as well, i went off that miata write up and did the same to my rack.

My experience with it, it sux monkey balls. The feeling is very hard, and like said above, its a biatch to park it. i tried drifting and it really sux, to hard to turn the wheel. A true manual rack is designed differently, which is why most stock cars with a manual rack has a nice feel to it. Ive been driving with this for about a year and a half.

As of now im saving up for parts to put powersteering back on my car. reason why i went with the nonpowersteering setup is because my powersteering was not working properly to begin with, and i could not afford to spend the money on parts to figure out what was wrong with it.

[!Zar!]

No powersteering is dumb and pointless.

Matter of fact it's quite possibly one of THE dumbest mods to do to a s13 imo.

[raen419]

Originally Posted by !Zar!

No powersteering is dumb and pointless.

Matter of fact it's quite possibly one of THE dumbest mods to do to a s13 imo.

I would almost agree, but the way the OP has depowered his rack is similar to how I did mine on my Miata, and it feels very little like the common way 240 guys remove PS.
Instead of looping the lines, and fighting the force of moving the fluid back and forth on your own, I took the rack completely apart, cut the collar off the main steering shaft (the one that pushes fluid back and forth in the rack), greased the whole thing down, and put it back together. The tension nut and locking collar is also adjustable, so the amount of force needed to turn the steering wheel can be lessened.
Its actually pretty sweet....however, my car runs 205/50/15 on 15x7 Panasports, and weighs 500-600 lbs less than a S13....so the feel is different. It also allows the driver to really feel what the tires are doing. Ask any road racer. Depowering steering like this to make it essentially a manual rack is one of the best things you can do to MOST lighterweight cars (by today's standards). I too am skeptical of how it feels.
I might pull a S13 rack from the junkyard just to find out...

[racepar1]

Originally Posted by !Zar!

No powersteering is dumb and pointless.

Matter of fact it's quite possibly one of THE dumbest mods to do to a s13 imo.

In general yes it is. However removing the powersteering like the OP did is not a terrible idea. The P/S system is a sizeable chunk of weight to get rid of, a manual steering system offers better feedback, and disassembling the rack to basically make it a manual rack will make the steering effort much less.

I say we need a full write-up with pics or BAN!!!

And we need a review of the steering feel and effort or DIE!!!

LOL!

[S14DB]

Originally Posted by !Zar!

No powersteering is dumb and pointless.

Matter of fact it's quite possibly one of THE dumbest mods to do to a s13 imo.

Naw man, it makes you more hardcore yo! You got's to be leet these days1!!


Power rack will always turn like shit without pressure. Only proper way to do this is to get a REAL manual rack. But, I think with the 240sx's caster angle this would still suck ass.

[Bigsyke]

Theres quite a difference between looping the lines, and removing the center oil seal and packing with grease.


DisEpyon did you back off the tensioner enough?

When I fineally got mine installed, I couldnt steer for shit. It wouldnt return to center. I jumped underneather the car, loosened mine back about 360* and locked it down.

Now on the highway its almost looser than a PS setup. Lock to lock I can tell im not hitting any restrictions like I did when I just looped the lines.

Im not the strongest dude, but I wouldnt ever go back. Parking is no problem.

Racepar1 I would totally do a writeup, but there is no way im going back to that hell.

But if you guys have any questions LMK.

Originally Posted by S14DB

Naw man, it makes you more hardcore yo! You got's to be leet these days1!!


Power rack will always turn like shit without pressure. Only proper way to do this is to get a REAL manual rack. But, I think with the 240sx's caster angle this would still suck ass.

Manual racks usually have a worse gear ratio. True its not exactly like a FWD depowered rack, but for "street" use, do you think playing around with the caster could help a bit?

[DisEpyon]

hmmm...

maybe i did not torque mine correctly.

what was your procedure on going about torqueing down the adjusting screw?

[slideways2004]

so taking out the power steering give you like 2whp and makes steering really hard and shitty.

[projectRDM]

Originally Posted by slideways2004

so taking out the power steering give you like 2whp and makes steering really hard and shitty.

If you just loop it, yes. Everyone fails to realize there's more to it than that. The OP has essentially converted his rack to a manual unit, foregoing the need to run fluid or assist. 99.9% of people don't do that, they just take the system off creating just a power rack that's full of fluid sloshing around.
You guys need to get back to those RIF tapes and learn what's going on in this post.

If it wasn't for the need to run a tensioner for the water pump on a KA I would have done this years ago. But I don't like the idea of removing a big pump and bracket only to put something else right back in it's place. For SR guys this is a viable option, and easy as shit too.

[LA_phantom_240]

Originally Posted by S14DB

But, I think with the 240sx's caster angle this would still suck ass.

Care to elaborate? I assume by your post that a 240 has a relatively high caster angle to make it more stable in a straight line, sacrificing steering response and such... Is there anything you can add?

[Def]

Steering effort builds up much quicker with higher caster numbers.

I ran my rack with a very minimal amount of fluid and the lines run to a breather, which I imagine feels pretty close to this. It's not that bad, even in parking lots, but on track when the car is really loaded up it definitely gave me a workout. It was enough to where I'd be a little tired at the end of a track day after fighting the steering around every lap.

The car is much easier to drive at the limit with PS just because you can make corrections with a much lighter feel than all that effort on the wheel.

This was with 245/40s on 17x9's up front. The effort when you're at the limit of the tires is similar to trying to turn the wheels at about 1 mph in a parking lot - it's quite a bit. Off center it wasn't bad at all.

The effort was also enough to wear out my stock steering wheel that was in perfect shape before that. Delaminated the material from the steel ring.

[Z33TT]

Originally Posted by chibo

I don't know how you do this with any decent sized tires, I dailied a S13 with 245's up front and broken-ass power steering. I almost died a few times... and parking lots sucked. I'm not a weak guy either.

I was running 275 up front on my Z with no PS and it didn't feel that bad?

[racepar1]

Originally Posted by slideways2004

so taking out the power steering give you like 2whp and makes steering really hard and shitty.

It gains a few hp, removes like 20-30lbs of crap from the front of the car, and gives the steering theoretically better feedback and road feel.

I think I am going to try this with a shitty, leaking, regular s-13 rack and see how I like it. If I like it i'll do it to my hicas rack. I think the best solution for the belt on a ka would be a custom water pump pulley so that one belt drives the water pump and the alternator.

TO THE OP: Post a link to the miata write-up please. I would like to learn more about this conversion.

[raen419]

Originally Posted by racepar1

In general yes it is. However removing the powersteering like the OP did is not a terrible idea. The P/S system is a sizeable chunk of weight to get rid of, a manual steering system offers better feedback, and disassembling the rack to basically make it a manual rack will make the steering effort much less.

I say we need a full write-up with pics or BAN!!!

And we need a review of the steering feel and effort or DIE!!!

LOL!

Correct. All these naysayers are speaking out of ignorance. Just removing the pump and looping the lines is NOT THE SAME as actually depowering the rack itself and remove the pump/resevoir/lines.

To give you guys a better idea of what I did, take a look at this:
Flyin' Miata : Tech: 1.8 conversion
Its the best free mod I've ever done to the Miata. Might be the best for the S13 too. But like you, I'm grabbing a spare rack take apart and depower.

Btw, depowering my way (and flyinmiata's) = turning a PS rack into a manual one. There is ZERO difference between the two.

[s13dan]

Um the gears are designed to have pressure. So under cornering you will have to fight the full weight of the car. --Watch your thumbs-- For drifting,if the car wants to snap back you better let it.

[Bigsyke]

Taking apart the rack, I learned alot how the actual PS system operates.

On a FWD car, I can assure it would be as easy if not easier to turn than a functioning PS setup, just a more direct feedback of the road.

On the 240's, I think the KA weight/caster/wider tires/wheels are the only things putting a restriction after the rack is depowered.

DisEpyon the manual states to torque the 12mm adjusting bolt to around 46lb's i think, then back it 70-110* counter clockwise, then torque it 1lb. THen lock the adjusting nut. After the rack is depowered I think alot of the stuff in the manual fly out the window;

The adjusting bolt pushes against a white retainer via a spring. All the tension you need now is just enough to put pressure against the shaft so the teeth contact the gear. I torqued it just enough so the pinion shaft cant rotate (slip off the dust boots adn try to turn the end of the inner tie rod, thats screwed into the pinion shaft). A slight drag, so trial and error. This would not be ideal for drifting, because then its a direct link on the tierods adn your thumbs, but autox/roadracing/daily driving its good. I also noticed an increase in my avg MPG, a rather big increase without the clutchfan/AC/PS.

IMO the white plastic retainer only holds pressure on the shaft so it contacts the gear. Too much pressure and the gear cant rotate so it seems like its WAY to stiff. - I would back off the adjusting bolt on looped racks about 90-150* counter clockwise and see if its a tad better.

Next thing I need to overcome is removing the pump and bracket. The suggested belt for the waterpump and crank is way to tight, and will not go on.

Then its caster, anybody in road racing with 240's have any suggestions, or positive caster something you have to have.

[DisEpyon]

thanks for the info..

ill try that out and see if i cant get my steering to feel any smoother. btw im more into road racing too, than drifting so hopefully my thumbs are safe

[racepar1]

Originally Posted by s13dan

Um the gears are designed to have pressure. So under cornering you will have to fight the full weight of the car. --Watch your thumbs-- For drifting,if the car wants to snap back you better let it.

Dude you clearly have no idea how a powersteering rack differs from a manual one. It would be wise to shut your mouth before you get owned on the construction and operation of a P/S rack and pinion. For a drift car this is not the best as it is necessary to move the wheel as quickly as possible all the time. However there are a TON of guys out there drifting with ghetto disabled powersteering and this would be much better then that.

[DisEpyon]

hahahahaha, omg, just got done fixing my steering.

ahhhhh man, the feeling feels so much damn better than before.

Bigsyke: I just want to thank you for making this thread, if not i probably would have wasted my money on the plans i had to put powersteering back on my car. Now i can spend my money on getting more goodies for my suspension. Even better yet, the rack i am using is a hicas rack. For the longest time i felt so damn bad about doing this mod on a hicas rack, but now i do not regret a dam thing. My problem was that i was thinking that the adjusting screw needed a lot of pressure against the rack, but boy was i wrong. I take back anything i said in my previous post.

For those of you that want to know the feeling, ummmm... lets see, the best way i can describe it is as feeling like driving a actual car with a manual rack. For example: my brothers honda eg hatch that he uses for daily driving, it has a manual rack in it and it feels similar to a power steering car, not as smooth as a power steering car but pretty similar. Turning at low speeds and parking no longer feels tough and hard (still need a little muscle in it, but not bad at all), and driving in general when going straight has a smoother a looser feel, and the wheel returns back to center when letting go. I still would not recommend this for drifting but definitely for road race. Oh yea i almost forgot too, when people say that you have a better feeling and reaction to road and tires, that is true, feels really good and responsive.

I enjoy driving my car again!!
BOOOYYAAA!!!!

[Propaganda]

Originally Posted by Bigsyke

DisEpyon the manual states to torque the 12mm adjusting bolt to around 46lb's i think, then back it 70-110* counter clockwise, then torque it 1lb. THen lock the adjusting nut. After the rack is depowered I think alot of the stuff in the manual fly out the window;

The adjusting bolt pushes against a white retainer via a spring. All the tension you need now is just enough to put pressure against the shaft so the teeth contact the gear. I torqued it just enough so the pinion shaft cant rotate (slip off the dust boots adn try to turn the end of the inner tie rod, thats screwed into the pinion shaft). A slight drag, so trial and error. This would not be ideal for drifting, because then its a direct link on the tierods adn your thumbs, but autox/roadracing/daily driving its good. I also noticed an increase in my avg MPG, a rather big increase without the clutchfan/AC/PS.

IMO the white plastic retainer only holds pressure on the shaft so it contacts the gear. Too much pressure and the gear cant rotate so it seems like its WAY to stiff. - I would back off the adjusting bolt on looped racks about 90-150* counter clockwise and see if its a tad better.

This is super good information!

When I depowered my rack, I just tightened it as much as possible and then steering felt so-so..

[raen419]

Damnit. You guys are going to make me want to do this to my S13. I might do a pic/write-up too. But it'll be a quite a few weeks before I get around to it. Got a trip to the Dragon weekend after next and paint/sanding/paint to do until then.

[Caithness]

Sorry for the bump, but I think this information would go well with this thread:

Junkyard Power steering delete brackets for KA

I'm planning on doing the Flyin' Miata depower and the junkyard single belt setup soon. I'll post my impressions of everything when I'm done.

[Bigsyke]

Originally Posted by Caithness

Sorry for the bump, but I think this information would go well with this thread:

Junkyard Power steering delete brackets for KA

I'm planning on doing the Flyin' Miata depower and the junkyard single belt setup soon. I'll post my impressions of everything when I'm done.

You are the MAN!

Yea I did the flyin miata depower, and still to this day after tweaking it, its easier to turn than my GF's 05' Nissan Altima.

I will never go back, ever! Even if theres a fire!