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Old 01-14-2010, 11:33 PM   #1
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Dyno faq

I Just wanted to get this out in the open because I get this question every single time.

"Do I need to own a wideband to come get my car tuned on the dyno"

No,

Any REPUTABLE dyno will have it's own high quality Wideband WITH data logging on site.

If you guys have any other FAQ for Dyno please post in this thread and I will attempt to answer
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Old 01-14-2010, 11:47 PM   #2
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Do you have a knock box also? That'd save me a few hundred.

Rb25 project coming to you soon Steve
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Old 01-14-2010, 11:48 PM   #3
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here's one that come up all the time.
whats the difference between:
dynojet
dynapac
dyno dynamics
mustang dyno
etc.

and which is the best/most accurate?
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Old 01-15-2010, 12:34 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by GSXRJJordan View Post
Do you have a knock box also? That'd save me a few hundred.

Rb25 project coming to you soon Steve
YES I DO HAVE ONE!!!! Ready to use on site - we use on almost every car during the power pulls portion of the run
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Old 01-15-2010, 12:41 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by jackal264 View Post
here's one that come up all the time.
whats the difference between:
dynojet Giant Drum at a given weight, Dyno reads how much energy the car has to use to push against the given weight. Often reads the highest of any dyno due to the fact you cannot apply additional load. The weight is the only resistance on every car for every run/chassis/weight etc of the car- You cannot tune the low end or mid range cells on a dynojet, You can only tune based on straight power pulls or on-off attempts to simulate load.
dynapac Dynpac is like a mini-dyno dynamics in a way. It is very popular in Japan because of the same reasons the Dyno Dynamics is popular with very thourough tuners elseware. It allows you to do some steady state or part throttle tuning/ cell by cell but not as fine as the DD. Also it will often overheat before you can really nail down a cell or complete a map and will read 2nd highest compared to the dynojet on numbers because it is bolted to the hubs.
dyno dynamicsDyno Dynamics is the best dyno for the money imo. It reads lower than all other mainstream dynos on the market because it uses an Electromagnetic Brake that is slowed by the magnets applying a force to slow the rollers the HARDER the car trys to push against the applied force. This dyno also allows the operator to apply various amounts of load conditions, simulate highway speeds, acceleration and other driving conditions that cannot be simulated with any other dyno.
mustang dyno Mustang Dyno is like a less precise version of a Dyno Dynamics. They typically use a large Belt whcih is attached to a pulley type system which is then in-turn strapped to a brake eddy or electronic brake. This system is less precise in steady state or cell by cell tuning. you can tune regions of cells but not hold the dyno in one exact spot. Tends to hunt around the screen. This dyno also reads considerably lower than the dynojet and dynapack because of the additonal load applied by the brake but is still not able to simulate as many various conditions as the DD. Good alternative for muscle cars or V8s because it is less important to get at every single Cell. This is a good dyno for Naturally Aspirated larger engines
etc.

and which is the best/most accurate?
Here is some basic wrap up
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Old 01-15-2010, 12:54 AM   #6
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1. how/where is the wideband o2 connected at?
2. do i need additional bung?
3. any experience tuning rotary?
4. for ka-t setup, what "budget" fuel management system do you recommend?(you would be tuning it). 4b. fuel upgrades? injectors, fuel pump, and? fpr??
5. obd1 vs obd2, do I need to know anything if I am obd2?
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Old 01-15-2010, 12:56 AM   #7
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i have never heard of "Also it will often overheat before you can really nail down a cell or complete a map ." could this be because the person didn't hook up the water hose to the devices?

how much for a baseline dyno pull, and can you tune something called nistune?
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Old 01-15-2010, 09:56 AM   #8
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i have never heard of "Also it will often overheat before you can really nail down a cell or complete a map ." could this be because the person didn't hook up the water hose to the devices?

how much for a baseline dyno pull, and can you tune something called nistune?
Not all Dyna Packs have water cooling. They are starting to come pre-equipt now. They still operate similar to a mustang dyno in regards to the fact that you can't quite hover in each indvivdual cell to do true steady state.

Baseline pull is 75 bucks. 5 runs typically

Nistune? Yes, you just have to bring your laptop/software to synch up and I can tune it

Quote:
Originally Posted by NINJASPY View Post
1. how/where is the wideband o2 connected at?
2. do i need additional bung?
3. any experience tuning rotary?
4. for ka-t setup, what "budget" fuel management system do you recommend?(you would be tuning it). 4b. fuel upgrades? injectors, fuel pump, and? fpr??
5. obd1 vs obd2, do I need to know anything if I am obd2?
The wideband 02 is conntect to a long pipe that goes into the back of your tail pipe and then routes the exhaust gas from about 3 feet upstream past the wideband sensor.

I have tested it back to back with my old race car using a LM 1 about 3 feet behind the turbo and the AFRs are nearly identical. In most cases the tail band sensor was actually more acurate because the sensor itself is exposed to less ambient heat. High heat around the sensor burns them out and can skew readings

KA-T, depends on what you mean by budget. Most people spend 1000-2000 on their turbo and manifold alone but when it comes to their "EMS Budget" they want to spend a fifth of that. I still think the AEM EMS plug and play is the best unit for the KA-T, from tuning experience.

OB1 vs. OBD2? Doesnt matter if you have an upgraded EMS.

Do you need to know anything if you are OB2? .....? like what?
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Old 01-15-2010, 02:50 PM   #9
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very good info
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Old 01-15-2010, 11:25 PM   #10
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I hope it's okay if I post my knowledge about the different dynos.

As far as I'm concerned dynojets read the highest.
Mustang dynos read the next best.
Dyno dynamics read the lowest and are usually give the best sense of where your car lies. If you're making high numbers with dyno dynamics you must have done something right (or wrong!).

Take it for what you will.
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Old 01-16-2010, 09:11 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by wolfvq37 View Post
I hope it's okay if I post my knowledge about the different dynos.

As far as I'm concerned dynojets read the highest.
Mustang dynos read the next best.
Dyno dynamics read the lowest and are usually give the best sense of where your car lies. If you're making high numbers with dyno dynamics you must have done something right (or wrong!).

Take it for what you will.
Pretty certain that Mustang dynos read the lowest, easily.
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Old 01-16-2010, 12:12 PM   #12
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Dyno Dynamics read the lowest.

Mustang Dynos are usually the second lowest.

However some units arent properly calibrated or maintained and this can skew readings.

Mike has hauled his DD out to dyno days or festivals and they have done side by side testing at other shops with mustang vs. dd.

Either way at the end of the day the thing that is most important is if the dyno allows you to tune the car in a certain way. Cell by cell, etc.

In my opinion the best way to do it is use the dyno dynamics for the actual tuning of the car and then having a dj in the floor to do the power pull for the best numbers once the car is finished. This is actually what XS engineering did for a very long time! their customers didnt even know it
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Old 01-16-2010, 01:48 PM   #13
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In my opinion the best way to do it is use the dyno dynamics for the actual tuning of the car and then having a dj in the floor to do the power pull for the best numbers once the car is finished. This is actually what XS engineering did for a very long time! their customers didnt even know it
Sounds like a good business plan. What I would do.

"Tuning to the Left bay, ePeens to the Right bay."
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Old 01-16-2010, 02:34 PM   #14
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hahah

exactly

It works,

But for me personally I dont mind the lower read out on the DD.

It's more of a reaity check. And hey you always know if you needed to lengthen the epens you could hit the dj
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Old 01-16-2010, 03:07 PM   #15
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Sorry for the misinformation folks
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Old 01-16-2010, 07:56 PM   #16
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Not all Dyna Packs have water cooling. They are starting to come pre-equipt now. They still operate similar to a mustang dyno in regards to the fact that you can't quite hover in each indvivdual cell to do true steady state.
Interesting, I've never heard of Dynapacks that were not water cooled, if they were not, I would agree, you would have a hard time completing a mapping session without overheating the dyno. Before we bought our Dynapack dyno, we rented dyno time from Church Automotive Testing, and their unit has always been water cooled, so if Dynapack did ever did sell dyno's without water cooling, it was a long time ago.

I disagree with another statement made above about the Dynapack not being able to hold the vehicle well under steady state conditions. Considering I've used Dyno Dynamics, Mustang MD-250, Dynojet with eddy current, and a Mainline, the Dynapack, I've found, has been the most capable at holding steady state, and that's one of the main reasons we decided to purchase one. Under most situations, our Dynapack will hold +/- 5 RPM of the target, even at very high power levels.
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Old 01-17-2010, 01:54 AM   #17
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Interesting, I've never heard of Dynapacks that were not water cooled, if they were not, I would agree, you would have a hard time completing a mapping session without overheating the dyno. Before we bought our Dynapack dyno, we rented dyno time from Church Automotive Testing, and their unit has always been water cooled, so if Dynapack did ever did sell dyno's without water cooling, it was a long time ago.

I disagree with another statement made above about the Dynapack not being able to hold the vehicle well under steady state conditions. Considering I've used Dyno Dynamics, Mustang MD-250, Dynojet with eddy current, and a Mainline, the Dynapack, I've found, has been the most capable at holding steady state, and that's one of the main reasons we decided to purchase one. Under most situations, our Dynapack will hold +/- 5 RPM of the target, even at very high power levels.
Yes all recent dynapacks come with water cooling.
No, a lot of dumbasses at shops do not hook up the water cooling. Which is really common unfortunately
Church automotive stick to hondas...btw... I have had a lot my customers bringing cars in that they "tuned" and had some insane crack pot maps with timing all over the place in random places

Yes the dyna pack will allow some steady state. But what i am talking about is something I like to call ROW WALKING, when you trace down a single row of cells hitting each individual cell one by one in a single RPM row, load point by load point. So far the only dyno that could do it perfectly has been the DD for me.

If I had to buy a dyno other than a DD, I think the Dyna Pack is a good alternative. But I have seen dyna packs that even have the water cooling hooked up overheat...
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Old 01-17-2010, 05:57 PM   #18
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is there any benefit for running a dyno on the fresh swap stock sr?

if the car is running stock ecu and recieving a knocking code, would running a dyno tell any information about where the knocking happens?

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Old 01-17-2010, 06:28 PM   #19
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Yes, dyno on a stock swap is actually something I have just recently started to recommend.

A. Most people, even experienced shops, don't get the base CAS timing right. Which even if it's off by a little bit can throw off base HP numbers by 50-100 HP!!!!, I KNOW!

B. TPS, and other parts of the motor are harder to check when they are not under controlled conditions. I can data log your air temps, vacuum and other functions under controlled conditions on the dyno to make sure your stock swap or motor with bolt ons is at it's peak potential mechanically.


PS> I wanted to correct myself earlier.

The Dyno Dynamics actually uses an extremely accurate NARROW band sensor. I also have a Wide Band LM1 with tail pipe mount which we use as a third party sensor on-top of the Dyno Dynamics equipt super accurate Narrow Band. It's ridiculously accurate. Even more so than the bosch wideband.

Also the dyna packs are very capable of steady state. I just prefer the durability of the dyno dynamics and some of the more advanced load simulating capabilties. Just make sure the shop you go to is Nissan specialized or has A LOT of experience. because they are finicky
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Old 01-17-2010, 06:44 PM   #20
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Yes, dyno on a stock swap is actually something I have just recently started to recommend.

A. Most people, even experienced shops, don't get the base CAS timing right. Which even if it's off by a little bit can throw off base HP numbers by 50-100 HP!!!!, I KNOW!

B. TPS, and other parts of the motor are harder to check when they are not under controlled conditions. I can data log your air temps, vacuum and other functions under controlled conditions on the dyno to make sure your stock swap or motor with bolt ons is at it's peak potential mechanically.
nice, this is such an important piece of information to know from an expert. I heard you can do a remote dyno/tune, how can you achieve that?

also, do you have any comment of my second part of the questions?

"if the car is running stock ecu and recieving a knocking code, would running a dyno tell any information about where the knocking happens?"
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Old 01-17-2010, 07:43 PM   #21
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The Base Map and Remote Tuning services I offer are for people who own re-programmable fuel and ignition management systems or engine management systems like Power FC, Tomei Reytech, Haltech, AEM EMS, Megasquirt, Autronic, etc, etc etc...

I do not currently do rom or ecu tuning. If you're looking for this strickly I recommend Scot Avoy or Enthalpy Tuning. JWT is ok too, but Scott is a little bit more custom tailored and price savvy.

I still think getting an EMS like a power fc and buying a base map or remote service package from me is better in the long run because you can get a map and tune the car specifically for the exact mods and engine you have. Every engine is different. Even stock to stock every one has it's own little ticks that a custom fit is much better tailored to.

We can check knock with det cans and knock box at the shop on stock motors as well as montor your injector duty cycle and fuel pressure under load if needed.

Tuning by knock is not recommended though. If you have an EMS you should be tuning and checking input vs. MBT, not knock.
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Old 01-17-2010, 07:57 PM   #22
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i am now learning alot about dyno's. Thanks! Steve!
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Old 01-17-2010, 08:04 PM   #23
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Steve, I should know this, but what is MBT an abbreviation for?
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Old 01-17-2010, 10:00 PM   #24
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max best torque

the best torque or power you can achieve with the minimum amount of timing in the tune. MBT can be achieved when you don't want to use more timing than you have to to hit your target output, the less the better.
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Old 01-17-2010, 10:40 PM   #25
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max best torque

the best torque or power you can achieve with the minimum amount of timing in the tune. MBT can be achieved when you don't want to use more timing than you have to to hit your target output, the less the better.
I feel I need to add to this, while it's nice to be able to tune to MBT, many engines will reach their knock threshold before they get to MBT with pump fuel. This is why knock monitoring is so important. Also, if you carefully monitor knock and creep up on timing, you are generally not going to kill a street engine if it just begins to ping. In practice, on engines that reach their knock threshold before MBT, you cannot tune the engine safely unless you reach the knock threshold, otherwise you would not know the limit of the motor. With a set of knock headphones, it is possible to hear knock just as it begins, well before you would hear it with just your ears . Of course, the more power you make with a given engine, the higher the risk of damaging it with knock. I think of it like a blow torch, you can pass a blow torch over a piece of metal without affecting it one bit, if you hold it there you will start melting things.

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Old 01-17-2010, 10:47 PM   #26
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hello steve,

1.i was wondering if u can tune a chiped sr ecu?what about stock ecu?
2.if im installing bigger injector, fpr, boost cntrlr,and other mods, should i install right before heading to a tuneshop?
3.i notice your in la, where is your shop? im in pasadena

i have my sr that has a shitty tune for about 4 months now, i backfire EVERYWHERE, i figure to invest in tuning to extend my sr lifespan.

here is pic whats in my ecu


thank you sir...
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Old 01-17-2010, 11:00 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hexdmy View Post
I feel I need to add to this, while it's nice to be able to tune to MBT, many engines will reach their knock threshold before they get to MBT with pump fuel. This is why knock monitoring is so important. Also, if you carefully monitor knock and creep up on timing, you are generally not going to kill a street engine if it just begins to ping. In practice, on engines that reach their knock threshold before MBT, you cannot tune the engine safely unless you reach the knock threshold, otherwise you would not know the limit of the motor. With a set of knock headphones, it is possible to hear knock just as it begins, well before you would hear it with just your ears . Of course, the more power you make with a given engine, the higher the risk of damaging it with knock. I think of it like a blow torch, you can pass a blow torch over a piece of metal without affecting it one bit, if you hold it there you will start melting things.

- Chris
Hi Chris

We use active knock detection such as Det cans and we have a knock box but I have never heard knock before reaching correct timing in each cell and achieving knock...at least yet on a Nissan motor. This is an AGE old tuning debate that was actually discussed even this weekend at the EFI University session we had with Seth from EFI University. The debate and EFI University ended up being a conclusion that tuning off MBT and not being sole focused on knock precautions. Most knock sensors are not even properly configured for the motors they are running on and most oem knock sensors are not designed to pick up the minor knock you are mentioning.

Part of the way to avoid knock while tuning on PUMP gas to begin with is to move towards more rich AFRs than you would commonly expect, especially with the quality of fuels being lower, to actually achieve the same energy out of many of the pump gases today a richer mixture must be used. I honestly have to disagree that most motors will see knock before you reach max best torque. When watching an OEM knock sensor that is actually configured and in working condition for the correct vehicle, at least with Nissan applications, this has not been the case in my experience. With Knock sensors that are aftermarket and not properly calibrated specifically for the voltage range of true inaudible knock this becomes the opposite and it becomes harder and harder to tell if you are actually picking up real knock or supersonic engine air vibration or some other engine condition.

It might also be good to note here that knock IS NOT detonation / extreme engine pressure or typical preignition referred to by most people referring to it...Knock is also not flame fronts meeting in the center of the quench zone of the combustion chamber...

Knock is literally the sound waves of the air inside of the combustion chamber reaching such a pitch and velocity that they explode the fuel air mixture milliseconds prior to TDC during a piston stroke. This vibration is what will actually damage your internals. And also note that on most nissan motors inaudible knock will first start to effect ROD bearings, not pistons in most cases. This is another misnomer.

I think you present an excellent point in that MBT will not always tell you if a motor is tuned in a way to avoid all knock. However tuning with det cans or after market knock senors is an even more risky way to tune off of, based on the fact that most aftermarket knock sensors are extremely hard to properly calibrate due to each individual engine having a different voltage threshold to properly identify actual engine knock and not some other vibration or cam noise in the engine.

In a perfect world you could hook up det cans, knock boxes and an external 3rd party knock sensor and hear knock that would normally be inaudible, see knock on the 3rd party sensor easily without having to spend thousands of dollars on equipment and development to properly configure the sensor to see REAL knock and not some other vibration from engine to engine and also be 100&#37; clear of any detonation before TDC while tuning for MBT. It's an endless debate and I think that honestly it has more to do with engine to engine, vs. tuning method to tuning method. Some engines are much more prone to knock and inaudible det than others. For example many 4G and Subaru engines often see these conditions and their users are very involved in the development or more and more knock feedback and knock based tuning. Age old debate and I hope I shed some light as well
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Old 01-17-2010, 11:27 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve shadows View Post
Hi Chris

We use active knock detection such as Det cans and we have a knock box but I have never heard knock before reaching correct timing in each cell and achieving knock...at least yet on a Nissan motor.

This is an AGE old tuning debate that was actually discussed even this weekend at the EFI University session we had with Seth from EFI University. Seth backed up my same opinion on tuning off MBT and not being sole focused on knock precautions. Most knock sensors are not even properly configured for the motors they are running on and most oem knock sensors are not designed to pick up the minor knock you are mentioning.

It might also be good to note here that knock IS NOT detonation / extreme engine pressure or typical preignition referred to by most people referring to it...Knock is also not flame fronts meeting in the center of the quench zone of the combustion chamber...

Knock is literally the sound waves of the air inside of the combustion chamber reaching such a pitch and velocity that they explode the fuel air mixture milliseconds prior to TDC during a piston stroke. This vibration is what will actually damage your internals. And also note that on most nissan motors inaudible knock will first start to effect ROD bearings, not pistons in most cases. This is another misnomer.

I think you present an excellent point in that MBT will not always tell you if a motor is tuned in a way to avoid all knock. However tuning with det cans or after market knock senors is an even more risky way to tune off of, based on the fact that most aftermarket knock sensors are extremely hard to properly calibrate due to each individual engine having a different voltage threshold to properly identify actual engine knock and not some other vibration or cam noise in the engine.
Steve, I agree with you that tuning to MBT is a safer and really, a better way to tune a engine IF that engine reaches MBT before it's knock threshold. That being said, many of the vehicles we tune at our shop reach their knock limit before or very close to MBT, and I am not referring to SR20's. This is why when I tune vehicles, I do both, watch torque and monitor/listen for knock, I'm sure you do the same.

As a side note, many of the late model european turbo cars that come through our shop, straight of the dealer lot, knock. The knock control systems on those vehicles are apparently good enough that the manufactures feel comfortable to calibrate them that way. As an example, we had a brand new Porsche Cayman that was consistently pulling up to four degrees of timing. With the engine cover removed ( the car is mid engine so the engine cover is right behind your head) you could drive it around and hear the engine momentary knock at times as you rolled into the throttle. It was not very loud, but it was definitely there.

- Chris
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Old 01-17-2010, 11:33 PM   #29
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Exactly. So you agree it is more based on make to make discrepancies vs. tuning method to tuning method in a way.

I do understand what you are saying in your example as well. We used knock box on a couple of vw's that were knocking like pigs however we could still see torque going up. Didnt mean the motor needed more timing (obviously).

This would be a great selling point however to get the customer on 1. meth and water injector 2. or E85. I think this is why this has popped up as a popular route because you can then limit the specific make and models tendancy to see knock prior to MBT and get more out of the motor while decreasing the knock with an octane simulator
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Old 01-17-2010, 11:37 PM   #30
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Well when we were tuning my ear, if there was a way to detect knock via a eletronic mechanism, my ears would thank them for it... But yeah tuning my car, I had a knock box by phormula which can be tuned for knock frequency as well as sensitivity. I believe all these boxes need to be calibrated, but I think tuning for MBT and really just trying to listen for knock via an ear, imo is really the only way...

But ear and turbo's and boost... not a good thing, so yeah... not doing that for anyone elses car haaha
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