This is the roll center, suspension pickup, and steering angle modification thread.

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by !Zar!

If you all are increasing front track, what are you doing to increase the rear track?

Why do you want/need more camber?

Running wider or lower offset wheels increases the rear track, and a wider front track compared to rear is generally an advantage on a FR car when done in moderation.

When doing anything serious in motorsports, 3* is a minimum for our front suspensions, especially if there isn't much RC correction.

Originally Posted by Csomme

Running more camber up front will increase your leading wheel contact patch at full lock. Paired with the right caster, this is pretty awesome.

A lot of guys don't run much camber to have TONS of camber out of the leading wheel at full lock, this is beneficial to a certain extent, because it will "lift" up that corner of the car, putting more weight on the opposite end, resulting in more rear bite.

Your first point is for the most part a myth. Tilting the tops of the coils inwards doesn't do much when the wheel is nearly parallel with the axis you're moving the coil.

Also, I don't think lifting the front of the car really helps rear traction, but I need to do a little more studying as to the dynamic weight transfer.

I know when static corner balancing a car, the more you raise one point on the car, the more weight is on THAT corner.

[DC Dan MAX USA]

Originally Posted by s14unimog

I see a lot of front tire dragging, huge loss of momentum and unintended line changes.

Ryan Kado's backwards entries are just for fun, and just because he can, he would never do that in competition where he would be judged for loosing speed.

Originally Posted by Matej

MAX gentlemen, it would be totally radical if you made some cool super-elastic dust boots to match with all your other neat steering items. Possibly to also accommodate the offset spacers or spaced out tie rods better than the hard OEM boots.

the lip on the rack spacer is to retain a boot with a ziptie
you would not want a boot made for cars, you need one for off road trucks, they come in black blue and red and are super cheap so there is not much reason for us to produce them... the black one matches everything.

Originally Posted by Z33dori

so with the increased steering speed with knuckles, does this allow you to maintain faster steering return w/o running 9 degrees of caster?

faster steering at the knuckle requires less input to the wheel and when it corrects it spins back to straight less violently than stock.
we like to run less caster then stock, it requires a bit more direction from the driver instead of letting the car drift itself which is way more fun and controllable.
you never want to run too much caster, it exaggerates over centering at a low steering angle.

Originally Posted by Csomme

Running more camber up front will increase your leading wheel contact patch at full lock. Paired with the right caster, this is pretty awesome.

A lot of guys don't run much camber to have TONS of camber out of the leading wheel at full lock, this is beneficial to a certain extent, because it will "lift" up that corner of the car, putting more weight on the opposite end, resulting in more rear bite.

camber is the old school method, now its all about having the right caster by having a caster top plate
since the caster just multiplies the camber like crazy at double OEM steering angle

[Matej]

Originally Posted by DC Dan MAX USA

the lip on the rack spacer is to retain a boot with a ziptie
you would not want a boot made for cars, you need one for off road trucks, they come in black blue and red and are super cheap so there is not much reason for us to produce them... the black one matches everything.

Wonderful. It was my intention to inquire whether you were planning to sell some kind of an elaborate boot for the them.

Would you mind posting a couple links for the kind of boots to purchase?
Are these them?
http://www.energysuspensionparts.com...sp?prod=9.8130

[GSXRJJordan]

Dan, it was absolutely awesome shooting the shit with you Saturday during the comp.

[az_240]

Sorry for the dumb question but is it ever a good idea to try "correcting" a strut tower with camber/caster plates if it's only slightly out of spec?

Like say the passenger side front strut tower was pushed in towards the firewall .25"... is it okay to offset this with caster plates or is it worth it to get the strut tower pulled by a frame repair shop?

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by az_240

Sorry for the dumb question but is it ever a good idea to try "correcting" a strut tower with camber/caster plates if it's only slightly out of spec?

Like say the passenger side front strut tower was pushed in towards the firewall .25"... is it okay to offset this with caster plates or is it worth it to get the strut tower pulled by a frame repair shop?

In the long run, or if you're building a competition car, it's probably better to have it pulled.

But it's fine to correct it with a caster plate in the short term.

[Silverbullet]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Also, I don't think lifting the front of the car really helps rear traction, but I need to do a little more studying as to the dynamic weight transfer.

I know when static corner balancing a car, the more you raise one point on the car, the more weight is on THAT corner.

lifting is caused by jacking. You can look at it the same as a car turning at steady state around a radius. Variables that determine amount of total weight transfered is just simply =(weight*CG height) / (track length*G force).

To apply this in drifting, I would assume the car is at a 45* yaw angle. The track length would be the length between the "instant grip point" of front to the "instant grip point" of the rear.

[Csomme]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Running wider or lower offset wheels increases the rear track, and a wider front track compared to rear is generally an advantage on a FR car when done in moderation.

When doing anything serious in motorsports, 3* is a minimum for our front suspensions, especially if there isn't much RC correction.



Your first point is for the most part a myth. Tilting the tops of the coils inwards doesn't do much when the wheel is nearly parallel with the axis you're moving the coil.

Also, I don't think lifting the front of the car really helps rear traction, but I need to do a little more studying as to the dynamic weight transfer.

I know when static corner balancing a car, the more you raise one point on the car, the more weight is on THAT corner.

Care to explain why my first point is a myth? The running more camber will give you a flatter contact patch from the leading wheel? This is not a myth, it's simply truth,

Take an S-chassis, with stock caster let's say(6.7-6.8). if you run 2.5* of negative camber, you are going to see a lot of positive camber at full lock from the leading wheel(This is where the diagonal wheel shit I was talking about comes into play). If you run 6.5* negative camber up front, you have a flatter contact patch and are using more of the tire, because at full lock your leading wheel will have hardly any positive camber.

[GSXRJJordan]

^^^ The leading wheel has the least load out of all of them - you can literally remove it from the car mid-turn. The trailing front wheel has almost all of the load, and needs the contact patch that will promote the most traction (usually, because of tire loading, that's cambered in a bit).

[Pandapants]

^^ what about in the middle of a drift? Is the leading wheel the loaded wheel?

[95KA-Turbo]

I just did a practice even two weeks ago, I added some caster by turning my camber plates sideways - and since I needed a little more clearance on the rear of my wheel well I also shortened my tension rods just a little.

I didn't get a chance to get a real alignment after I did this, so I eyeballed it, I believe it was toed in just a little from how it was handling. I toed it out some at the track and it felt better but I was having an issue with transitioning between turns.

The first turn would feel awesome like I had a lot of grip, then it would basically tank slap and become uncontrollable when I'd transition. The very most I could manage was linking three turns before I'd spin out, and that involved a shit tone of input on my part. I am attributing most of that to my lack of having a real alignment (I checked my rear arms when I changed tires and my freaking traction arms were loose, I guess the alignment guys - or me - forgot to tighten them down all the way, so who knows how my rear alignment was).

Any suggestions on correcting my instability issues? Obviously I need a real alignment, that will probably reveal a lot.

Here's a picture, you can see the front wheels really well in it...

[GSXRJJordan]

Originally Posted by Pandapants

^^ what about in the middle of a drift? Is the leading wheel the loaded wheel?

I'm sure Dan can chime in also, but mid-drift the inside (leading) wheel does the least work, since the weight is still loaded to the outside. The whole idea of zero Ackerman is so you can stop dragging the front wheel, since the car's steering angle is determined by how much angle the outside wheel has.

Point is, you'd be foolish to make concessions for the inside wheel's contact patch.

[PoorMans180SX]

Let's all get this straight. The leading wheel is the wheel with the most angle, the furthest forward wheel while drifting (unless you're going backwards), and the one on the "outside". This is the loaded wheel in drift. Sheesh, we need some standardized terms.

Originally Posted by Csomme

Care to explain why my first point is a myth? The running more camber will give you a flatter contact patch from the leading wheel? This is not a myth, it's simply truth,

Take an S-chassis, with stock caster let's say(6.7-6.8). if you run 2.5* of negative camber, you are going to see a lot of positive camber at full lock from the leading wheel(This is where the diagonal wheel shit I was talking about comes into play). If you run 6.5* negative camber up front, you have a flatter contact patch and are using more of the tire, because at full lock your leading wheel will have hardly any positive camber.

I said it was largely a myth. Think of how tilting the tops the coilovers in relates to how the wheel is tilted at full lock. All your coilover does is spin, so at 50* of steering angle, that much camber isn't affecting the "leading" wheel nearly as much as it does when it's straight. Now, dialing some of that camber in with the lower strut mount, and it does affect the leading tire quite a bit. But it also does the opposite to the trailing tire, making it gain more positive camber. Simply adjusting your caster is 10x more effective, as it's what causes the massive positive camber in the first place, and it places more of both wheels on the ground.

Originally Posted by 95KA-Turbo

I just did a practice even two weeks ago, I added some caster by turning my camber plates sideways - and since I needed a little more clearance on the rear of my wheel well I also shortened my tension rods just a little.

Did you mean added or took away? You add positive caster when you shorten your tension rods, and negative caster if you move the strut tops forward.

It looks like you don't have much caster in that pic. That would explain why you had to make so much input to get the car to go where you wanted. I would recommend shortening your tension rods more, and if you want more negative camber then your strut tops are giving you, lengthen your LCA.

[pjmrnolife1]

would someone go into some detail about making a steering rack like darren mac in his 86 recently did? speedhunters doesnt say anything specific. thanx

[95KA-Turbo]

My wheel was so far forward I ripped my bumper off on an initial test drive around my neighborhood. If I shorten them more then where they are now my tires will hit the front part of my fender where the bumper is attached.

Should I flip the camber plates the other way and shove the top of the shock toward the firewall? I was rubbing bad on the firewall side of my fender wells before, and I know I only had like 6* of caster before. Would caster really make the car feel THAT unstable. It was like tank slap city.

[JaredP]

Originally Posted by 95KA-Turbo

My wheel was so far forward I ripped my bumper off on an initial test drive around my neighborhood. If I shorten them more then where they are now my tires will hit the front part of my fender where the bumper is attached.

Should I flip the camber plates the other way and shove the top of the shock toward the firewall? I was rubbing bad on the firewall side of my fender wells before, and I know I only had like 6* of caster before. Would caster really make the car feel THAT unstable. It was like tank slap city.

Even before you get into performance driving caster has a huge effect on how a vehicle handles. A few degrees on cars as light as an s chassis could make it feel totally different. You should get an alignment and see what your caster settings were at

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by 95KA-Turbo

My wheel was so far forward I ripped my bumper off on an initial test drive around my neighborhood. If I shorten them more then where they are now my tires will hit the front part of my fender where the bumper is attached.

Should I flip the camber plates the other way and shove the top of the shock toward the firewall? I was rubbing bad on the firewall side of my fender wells before, and I know I only had like 6* of caster before. Would caster really make the car feel THAT unstable. It was like tank slap city.

I think your rear alignment might be out too, but the caster is the reason you're having to steer so much. I don't think I would run less than 6* or something, but I'm not the one driving the car, and I don't know what you have it at now.

I would put the camber plate back sideways, or just mess with it when you get an alignment so you can compromise between getting the wheel centered in the well and having enough/not too much caster.

That being said, too much toe in or out will hurt grip by heating the front tires too much (scrubbing), and can make the rear feel unstable depending on the thrust angle.

[SicBastard]

If you didn't have a known and symmetrical alignment than you really can't make any educated decisions about where to go next! On some cars, just a hair of toe out on either end makes the car almost undrivable. I agree w/ Poorman, go to a convensional set up with a good alignment (infront: 7 caster, 2.9-3.5 camber, 0 toe), take notes and go from there.

Re the 86 steering rack, I believe that all of that work was just to make room for the rotary. 13b has no conventional sump to create clearance for a rack, so it has to be infront of the engine. You can swap the stock spindles sides so that the steering arms are in front, then mount the steering rack infront of the engine.

I considered doing a similar set up once I got the drysump for my build, but I realized that the bellhousing/flywheel and trans sit so low that there's no point. Even if the rack wasn't below my engine, I couldn't lower my engine anymore because the trans would drag on the ground while maintaining proper pinion angle to the diff.

[mikerbike]

Originally Posted by GSXRJJordan

I'm sure Dan can chime in also, but mid-drift the inside (leading) wheel does the least work, since the weight is still loaded to the outside. The whole idea of zero Ackerman is so you can stop dragging the front wheel, since the car's steering angle is determined by how much angle the outside wheel has.

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Let's all get this straight. The leading wheel is the wheel with the most angle, the furthest forward wheel while drifting (unless you're going backwards), and the one on the "outside". This is the loaded wheel in drift. Sheesh, we need some standardized terms.

When I was talking about the leading wheel, I meant the leading wheel while drifting. This could get confusing.

[TFD]

Hi people,

I'm busy getting my s13 to handle well (as in no tramlining) and got myself anti-bumpsteer tie-rods installed on my lowered car (2 fingers gap).

Now i read you have to adjust the tierods parallel to the LCA. Now I was thinking is this parallel to the joints (red line) or the arm itself (blue line)?



Sorry for the hijacking but I cant find the answer.

Thanx for the help!

Daniel

[SomeoneWhoIsntMe]

Yeah, how much the links are curved doesn't matter, the red line is what the tie rod has to be parallel to.

Both the pivot points on the tie rod lie along it's axis, so you don't have to worry about anything like that with it.

[Def]

The blue line could be in an S shaped - doesn't matter. You just want the pivots to be parallel so the arms don't sweep in different arcs.

[TFD]

Ok thanx guys. Going out to re-do the tierods to redline shape and play around with toe in/out haha.
Just noticed the lca's on my car are almost horizontal. Better to lift it up a bit I guess.

[Jonnie Fraz]

These are some local guys that make some super cool stuff.
Cor Integration | Facebook
Some very cool massive angle parts.

[Pandapants]

Hey jonnie, did you ditch the subframe braces project?

[word sux]

going to be getting a front subframe mod from DANGDRIFTERS. Then throw some MA Motorsports awsomeotron 3000 knucks that my buddy has laying around for crazy steering angle next year.


in a few years I hope to be able to afford some driftworks front and rear knucks or D-UP garage might have theirs out by then and that would be sickkkkk!



this is how much angle I had for this year with SPL outters and Z33 inners w/ spl spacers







deff could have used some more angle to scrub speed

[DC Dan MAX USA]

Originally Posted by Matej

Wonderful. It was my intention to inquire whether you were planning to sell some kind of an elaborate boot for the them.

Would you mind posting a couple links for the kind of boots to purchase?
Are these them?
Energy Suspension 9.8130 Pair of Universal Shock Boots

yes thats it.

Originally Posted by GSXRJJordan

Dan, it was absolutely awesome shooting the shit with you Saturday during the comp.

it was fun, and there was such awesome bouncy titties next to you, thats why I couldnt make good eye contact while chatting, lol

Originally Posted by GSXRJJordan

^^^ The leading wheel has the least load out of all of them - you can literally remove it from the car mid-turn.

maybe for a fraction of a second, but then you see your sidewall has worn completely away and you realize its time to do something

Originally Posted by 95KA-Turbo

I just did a practice even two weeks ago, I added some caster by turning my camber plates sideways ~ I was having an issue with transitioning between turns.
Any suggestions on correcting my instability issues?

you reduced caster. it does prevent the car from driving itself, you can dial it back some to change the feeling but if you can learn to control it, its way better doe drifting.
Dont toe out, and do a real alignment...that will help the stability

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Simply adjusting your caster is 10x more effective

agreed

Originally Posted by 95KA-Turbo

My wheel was so far forward I ripped my bumper off on an initial test drive around my neighborhood.

You need to balance the caster and wheel position with the top plate (forward) and the tension rod longer (back) so that the shock is more vertical but the wheel is still centered. I sell all the stuff to do this.

Originally Posted by JaredP

Even before you get into performance driving caster has a huge effect on how a vehicle handles. A few degrees on cars as light as an s chassis could make it feel totally different. You should get an alignment and see what your caster settings were at

yup you got to get it dialed, there is a middle ground to be found here.

[thefro526]

I apologize if this has been brought up before, but does anyone know anything about this: JUN Auto Drag Rear Member

[GripTerror]

ya its been posted and its money

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by GripTerror

ya its been posted and its money

Hmm, I wasn't able to find any posts in this thread about it. I'm just curious to what it actually is/how it works/what makes it worth $3k.