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Old 10-19-2017, 03:31 AM   #7471
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You could just take measurements of your LCA's geometry after alignment and then try suggested settings, nothing to lose really. Saves from having to cut it. If it doesn't work, you can always go back.
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Old 10-19-2017, 06:37 AM   #7472
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Is it just me and jaysgotaredtop or am I messing some thing here. The only problem I see is the tire side walls size is way to big. Drop down to 40 series and I bet all rubbing gos away I only use 35 wall on the front of s-chassis. But i like mines Lo
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Old 10-19-2017, 07:09 AM   #7473
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Quick question tho I'm about to purchase theses gk tech flca/ tension arm combo. With 9j@-20 or 10j @0 for front wheels. I think I would want the shorter flca. What reasons would I want the longer ones other than more camber and bigger finders.
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Old 10-19-2017, 08:43 AM   #7474
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Quick question tho I'm about to purchase theses gk tech flca/ tension arm combo. With 9j@-20 or 10j @0 for front wheels. I think I would want the shorter flca. What reasons would I want the longer ones other than more camber and bigger finders.
higher clearance to the frame rails for more angle.
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Old 10-19-2017, 02:15 PM   #7475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ka-titties View Post
higher clearance to the frame rails for more angle.
Yeah, and more clearance to the tension rod joint. Also wider front track reduces understeer. If you want a lot of angle with 10j wheels you’re going to want the longer arms.
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Old 10-19-2017, 07:54 PM   #7476
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I struggled so much getting a 17x9 to work with modded knuckles. Offset was +20 and would hit the TC / sway bar. So I got a 35mm spacer (-15 effective) and that would STILL hit AND now hit the back of the fenderwell due to the huge scrub radius.

If it were me, I'd go function over hotboi, and run a 17x8. More inside clearance and still fit a 225/45 or 235/40
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Old 10-20-2017, 06:34 AM   #7477
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I struggled so much getting a 17x9 to work with modded knuckles. Offset was +20 and would hit the TC / sway bar. So I got a 35mm spacer (-15 effective) and that would STILL hit AND now hit the back of the fenderwell due to the huge scrub radius.

If it were me, I'd go function over hotboi, and run a 17x8. More inside clearance and still fit a 225/45 or 235/40
Quoting this so it can't be denied. Someone on Zilvia actually denounced the hotboi lyfe.
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Old 10-20-2017, 10:09 PM   #7478
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In its hard more expensive in AUS to get 225 35 17 and i have no clue about a 225 40 17.

Thanks guys.
Why do you HAVE to run 225's? If you're running these extended lca's, I'm assuming you're going to have quite a bit of negative camber. At that point there's no real reason to me to be running such a wide tire.
Step it down to a 215/35 or 215/40.


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I struggled so much getting a 17x9 to work with modded knuckles. Offset was +20 and would hit the TC / sway bar. So I got a 35mm spacer (-15 effective) and that would STILL hit AND now hit the back of the fenderwell due to the huge scrub radius.

If it were me, I'd go function over hotboi, and run a 17x8. More inside clearance and still fit a 225/45 or 235/40

Many ways to fix all of that. Run a sway bar with more clearance. Run a tension arm with more clearance or a one piece tension/lca. Run the caster further forward so that the wheel/tire clears the firewall at lock. I've ran 17x10's up front with lots of angle without clearance issues.
I currently run a 17x9-3 up front with 215/40 and over 60 degrees of lock and don't hit on anything.
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Old 10-21-2017, 12:13 AM   #7479
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dudes problem is 1000% that 225/45. iirc that's taller than a 245/40.

anyway, here's a thing I'm working on.




Clearing room for big heat exchangers on the front of this time attack Z32 and decided to go to a vertical tension rod pin on a Z32 for front end anti dive adjustment.

forgot the first pic was it propped together, second picture has it all bolted up to roll around the shop.
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Old 10-21-2017, 06:11 AM   #7480
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I need your help guys!


I've got S14 inner tie rods, SPL outers, 30mm extended FLCA and 18x10.5j +15 wheels on 265/35 with 15mm spacers just to clear my coilovers. Is there anything out there that can help with my clearance issue? Currently have -4.2 degrees of camber, TIA
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Old 10-21-2017, 10:07 AM   #7481
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Originally Posted by koukimonst3r View Post
I need your help guys!


I've got S14 inner tie rods, SPL outers, 30mm extended FLCA and 18x10.5j +15 wheels on 265/35 with 15mm spacers just to clear my coilovers. Is there anything out there that can help with my clearance issue? Currently have -4.2 degrees of camber, TIA


Clearance to the fender? Or is it hitting/ rubbing on suspension components?
You have a huge ass wheel number one, but if you plan on keeping it 10.5 then get aftermarket fenders that are +20 or more
If it’s hitting suspension what is it hitting?


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Old 10-21-2017, 11:08 AM   #7482
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Originally Posted by anthony_240 View Post
Clearance to the fender? Or is it hitting/ rubbing on suspension components?
You have a huge ass wheel number one, but if you plan on keeping it 10.5 then get aftermarket fenders that are +20 or more
If it’s hitting suspension what is it hitting?


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Forgot to add I have 50mm koguchi power fender, it's definitely rubbing on my tucked wiring harness. I know roy_goldstar is selling a wire harness shield.


I probably have to keep running 15mm spacers to clear coilovers forever on a 105.j unless there's a solution out there. Not hitting any suspension as we speak, I ran 10j +12 fine prior to this new 10.5j 0 setup.
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Old 10-21-2017, 11:45 AM   #7483
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Originally Posted by McRussellPants View Post
dudes problem is 1000% that 225/45. iirc that's taller than a 245/40.

anyway, here's a thing I'm working on.

Clearing room for big heat exchangers on the front of this time attack Z32 and decided to go to a vertical tension rod pin on a Z32 for front end anti dive adjustment.

forgot the first pic was it propped together, second picture has it all bolted up to roll around the shop.
This is very cool. I've always wanted to mess with anti-dive. Let us know how testing goes!

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Originally Posted by koukimonst3r View Post
Forgot to add I have 50mm koguchi power fender, it's definitely rubbing on my tucked wiring harness. I know roy_goldstar is selling a wire harness shield.


I probably have to keep running 15mm spacers to clear coilovers forever on a 105.j unless there's a solution out there. Not hitting any suspension as we speak, I ran 10j +12 fine prior to this new 10.5j 0 setup.
Get out the hammer.
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Old 10-21-2017, 01:08 PM   #7484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koukimonst3r View Post
Forgot to add I have 50mm koguchi power fender, it's definitely rubbing on my tucked wiring harness. I know roy_goldstar is selling a wire harness shield.


I probably have to keep running 15mm spacers to clear coilovers forever on a 105.j unless there's a solution out there. Not hitting any suspension as we speak, I ran 10j +12 fine prior to this new 10.5j 0 setup.


Prob on the wrong thread then bud haha but sounds to me like you either need to get that shield. Find another place to run the wiring. Raise the car up a tad. Or go with a thinner tire. Try a 255-35 , it will be a bit thinner on the sidewalk


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Old 10-23-2017, 07:45 AM   #7485
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Hi gents,
I’ve got an s14 with pbm limit break front kit with the trailing spindle knuckles. Heading for a track day next weekend and was wondering about alignment settings.

Currently aligned with about -6 camber and -8 caster (lots I know) but the wheel is sitting centered in the well, and no binding. Have the Ackerman plates in the middle setting. Going to try it out and see how I like it.
Ive Street driven it a bit and everything feels good so far, but I’d like to reduce the caster and Ackerman to get more front grip. was told that initially switching from a traditional setup to a trailing set up can be difficult to manage, and was recommended to keep lots of castor in the alignment until I get comfortable with the new setup. Anyone running these knuckles and have any input? Or tips for what data I should be collecting?

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Old 10-23-2017, 04:33 PM   #7486
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Hi gents,
I’ve got an s14 with pbm limit break front kit with the trailing spindle knuckles. Heading for a track day next weekend and was wondering about alignment settings.

Currently aligned with about -6 camber and -8 caster (lots I know) but the wheel is sitting centered in the well, and no binding. Have the Ackerman plates in the middle setting. Going to try it out and see how I like it.
Ive Street driven it a bit and everything feels good so far, but I’d like to reduce the caster and Ackerman to get more front grip. was told that initially switching from a traditional setup to a trailing set up can be difficult to manage, and was recommended to keep lots of castor in the alignment until I get comfortable with the new setup. Anyone running these knuckles and have any input? Or tips for what data I should be collecting?
Definitely too much caster. I'm not sure exactly how much trail is in the PSM knuckles, but you're close to getting caster wobble at that much caster. Dial it down to 4-5*.
Whoever told you that going to a low caster setup is difficult to manage probably didn't have trailing knuckles, because with trailing knuckles it's really easy to get used to.

People say ackerman is personal preference but you'll be faster with less ackerman. You'll have to get used to it on the street, and your turn in will be less aggressive. If you're using it only for drifting, low or none is the way to go.

With less caster you'll notice your braking and steering response improve when you're at high lock angles.
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Old 10-23-2017, 05:43 PM   #7487
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What would u recommend with there old pbm non trailing arm for caster?
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Old 10-23-2017, 07:03 PM   #7488
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What would u recommend with there old pbm non trailing arm for caster?
For Drifting on an S-chassis, 5-6*. Much lower than 6 and you'll have to adjust from the top hat though, the firewall doesn't like it haha.

Don't be afraid of the BFH though!

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Old 10-23-2017, 07:25 PM   #7489
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Seems to me that the whole point of a trailing knuckle is to be able to run 0 ackerman/low caster setups and still retain self steer for transitions. I personally can't stand having to manually steer through transitions or when coming out of drift. I like to be able to throw it and let the car do the steering work for me.
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Old 10-24-2017, 06:12 AM   #7490
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Seems to me that the whole point of a trailing knuckle is to be able to run 0 ackerman/low caster setups and still retain self steer for transitions. I personally can't stand having to manually steer through transitions or when coming out of drift. I like to be able to throw it and let the car do the steering work for me.
Yep
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Old 10-29-2017, 07:35 PM   #7491
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One more questions can I just set my ruca to 12",12.25",12.5"and traction arms to 8",8.25",8.5" to one of these combinations and then only mess with the toe arms on the Alignment rack? Or dose ride hight still play factor? My traction arms are not even from LtoR dose this matter? I'm going to get another alignment this week and just want to try to make the best of it.
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Old 10-30-2017, 04:53 AM   #7492
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One more questions can I just set my ruca to 12",12.25",12.5"and traction arms to 8",8.25",8.5" to one of these combinations and then only mess with the toe arms on the Alignment rack? Or dose ride hight still play factor? My traction arms are not even from LtoR dose this matter? I'm going to get another alignment this week and just want to try to make the best of it.
If you can get your camber where you want, then messing with the toe arms will only mess with the camber a small amount.

Traction rods should be extended as much as ruca, sometimes they're a little different per side, but generally they should be pretty even.
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Old 10-30-2017, 12:11 PM   #7493
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Lost me on the traction rods should be extended as much as ruca, u just mean if I extend the ruca 1" I need to extend the traction rod 1"?
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Old 10-30-2017, 12:36 PM   #7494
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Definitely too much caster. I'm not sure exactly how much trail is in the PSM knuckles, but you're close to getting caster wobble at that much caster. Dial it down to 4-5*.
Whoever told you that going to a low caster setup is difficult to manage probably didn't have trailing knuckles, because with trailing knuckles it's really easy to get used to.

People say ackerman is personal preference but you'll be faster with less ackerman. You'll have to get used to it on the street, and your turn in will be less aggressive. If you're using it only for drifting, low or none is the way to go.

kinda disagree with most of this.

KPI and caster are making a comeback after a few years of the wisefab dogma, since you can artificially weight jack onto the rear end for more bite.

mech trail can help a little bit but you can still get a fall to angle like all the Wise fab bullshit and honestly 90 percent of people the self steer from a bigger caster number is probably helping more than it hurts.

Also typically on faster tracks we would change onto the higher Ackerman setup. like, yeah sure, on paper you'll be outright faster with less Ackerman but the inside wheel drag basically amounts to a built in left foot brake effect that stabilizes the car and is super benificial in tandem.
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Old 10-30-2017, 04:36 PM   #7495
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Lost me on the traction rods should be extended as much as ruca, u just mean if I extend the ruca 1" I need to extend the traction rod 1"?
Yes.

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kinda disagree with most of this.

KPI and caster are making a comeback after a few years of the wisefab dogma, since you can artificially weight jack onto the rear end for more bite.

mech trail can help a little bit but you can still get a fall to angle like all the Wise fab bullshit and honestly 90 percent of people the self steer from a bigger caster number is probably helping more than it hurts.

Also typically on faster tracks we would change onto the higher Ackerman setup. like, yeah sure, on paper you'll be outright faster with less Ackerman but the inside wheel drag basically amounts to a built in left foot brake effect that stabilizes the car and is super benificial in tandem.
Maybe in some circles, but most pro s-chassis' are rocking lower caster than ever. Pretty sure Odi uses like 2*. Mechanical trail helps quite a bit. I ran 4* of caster and it felt like 5-6 when my power steering was working. I'm not sure what you mean by "fall to angle". Sure caster helps a lot of people steer, but a lot of people are still rocking cut n' shut knuckles. Kinda like bringing a club to a gun fight IMO.

The only cars I know of that actually use weight jacking are the Gittin and Denofa mustangs, and those dudes clearly steer with mostly throttle and don't have much front end grip in general. The cars also have a lot of anti-squat, which makes the combo drive the rear tires into the ground. Do that in a lowish S14 and all you'll do is drag ass and do a burnout.
If you're just trying to go super fast, then you can obviously rock higher static caster and ackerman, as lower steering angles mean their effects are less extreme. But if you're trying to rock deep angle and still have good braking and steering response at angle, then low caster and ackerman are where it's at. Ultimately it comes down to your driving style and how you want your car to perform. A guy that drives for fun and goes to bashes and someone who wants to eventually run Formula D have different goals and require different setups.

Super low cars will clear the fenders better with higher caster.
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Old 10-31-2017, 09:24 AM   #7496
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Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX View Post
Maybe in some circles, but most pro s-chassis' are rocking lower caster than ever. Pretty sure Odi uses like 2*. Mechanical trail helps quite a bit. I ran 4* of caster and it felt like 5-6 when my power steering was working. I'm not sure what you mean by "fall to angle". Sure caster helps a lot of people steer, but a lot of people are still rocking cut n' shut knuckles. Kinda like bringing a club to a gun fight IMO.

The only cars I know of that actually use weight jacking are the Gittin and Denofa mustangs, and those dudes clearly steer with mostly throttle and don't have much front end grip in general. The cars also have a lot of anti-squat, which makes the combo drive the rear tires into the ground. Do that in a lowish S14 and all you'll do is drag ass and do a burnout.
If you're just trying to go super fast, then you can obviously rock higher static caster and ackerman, as lower steering angles mean their effects are less extreme. But if you're trying to rock deep angle and still have good braking and steering response at angle, then low caster and ackerman are where it's at. Ultimately it comes down to your driving style and how you want your car to perform. A guy that drives for fun and goes to bashes and someone who wants to eventually run Formula D have different goals and require different setups.

Super low cars will clear the fenders better with higher caster.
The on power fall to angle is probably why Forrest consisistently had one of the slowest cars in FD. Dude could literally not floor it and have the car hook and go, the car just slowly dials in angle on power. which you could attribute to a lot of problems. like, God knows what that wisefab shit actually does under load it flexes so much, but a few teams ive talked to actually attributed it to low caster and low overall trail.

The weight jacking that ASD took from dirt oval exists outside of your anti squat %. and yeah, with how short Nissan makes their traction link there's basically zero hope of ever having useful anti squat. Still think its useful to look at what they're doing because it's a clear innovation outside of 'well I bought wisefab and I'm just gonna wonder why it sucks until I put Achilles on it'

About the driver skill that's kind of what I'm getting at though, it's like, all these local kids are getting rid of caster and roll couple and then wondering why they can't feel anything through the steering, and their car looks like you kicked a shopping cart. it's like, you're gonna run 5 or 6 degrees of static amber anyway, you might as well let caster roll the contact patch flat and keep the feel.

Alternatively you can do whatever with Ackerman since most people's 4th gear has dust on it from never being used, but more Ackerman is probably useful learning faster tracks.
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Old 10-31-2017, 01:19 PM   #7497
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Hey,

I have a question regarding the LCA offset ball-joint location on steering knuckles. Any OEM s13 steering knuckles, or aftermarket knuckles feature this, for that matter.

This was brought up earlier in the thread on Page 214, but the question was never really answered.

Iv'e been trying to engineer my own knuckles, and in this process i'm trying to understand all aspects of the knuckles. They aren't actually for a s13, but I want to talk about theory, because correct theory is consistent everywhere.

Why is the LCA ball-joint location offset rearward of the wheel rotational axis?

Some implications iv'e thought of are listed below, and please let me know if iv'e missed anything, or if i'm just straight-up incorrect.

If the ball-joint location is offset rearward of the wheel-axis (spindle), then:

- At angle, the trailing tire will hit the frame before the leading wheel will.
- As you turn the wheel, both wheels are scrubbing while steering, because you are moving the tire on a lever arm. This scrub is not the same, but similar to scrub induced by scrub-radius.
-If your ball-joint was inline with the spindle, your wheel would be
pivoting along where the knuckle rotates, and therefore not scrubbing.
- Scrubbing generates more slip angle on both tires.
- Moving your ball-joint located rearward creates anti-trail (reduces mechanical trail induced from caster, lower strut mount offset).
- Creates greater cross-jacking, at earlier steering angles.


By moving that ball-joint location, you can also change at which point your steering rack and tie rods over-center.

Obivously, the offset on S13 knuckles is very slight to other vehicles, but that offset is there nevertheless.

Thanks for reading this. Iv'e been designing and fabricating Trailing spindles for an FC over the last few months, and iv'e thought about all of this stuff alot, but the ball-joint location is the one aspect that I can't seem to get a clear answer for. I frequently dig into this thread to find direction; thank you for all of the information you guys post.

Iv'e read all of Carol Smith's books, RCVD by Milliken, and my study is in vehicle dynamics. I just happen to love drifting.

Thank you.

Last edited by engineeringdrifts; 10-31-2017 at 02:46 PM.. Reason: LCA ball joint, Wheel rotational axis.
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Old 10-31-2017, 02:09 PM   #7498
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Why is the ball-joint location offset rearward of the wheel-axis?
Which ball joint? The LCA or the tie rod?

Which axis? The wheel's rotational axis or the spindle's steering axis?

Which direction rearward? Rearward relative to the car (towards the back bumper) or rearward relative to the wheel (towards the engine)?

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what you're trying to ask here.
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Old 10-31-2017, 02:17 PM   #7499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysgottaredtop View Post
Which ball joint? The LCA or the tie rod?

Which axis? The wheel's rotational axis or the spindle's steering axis?

Which direction rearward? Rearward relative to the car (towards the back bumper) or rearward relative to the wheel (towards the engine)?

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what you're trying to ask here.
I apologize.

LCA Ball joint.

By wheel axis, I meant the axis along which the wheel is rotating. I was under the impressed the spindle axis was the same than the wheel axis.

By rearward, I meant toward the back bumper.
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Old 10-31-2017, 03:49 PM   #7500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McRussellPants View Post
The on power fall to angle is probably why Forrest consisistently had one of the slowest cars in FD. Dude could literally not floor it and have the car hook and go, the car just slowly dials in angle on power. which you could attribute to a lot of problems. like, God knows what that wisefab shit actually does under load it flexes so much, but a few teams ive talked to actually attributed it to low caster and low overall trail.

The weight jacking that ASD took from dirt oval exists outside of your anti squat %. and yeah, with how short Nissan makes their traction link there's basically zero hope of ever having useful anti squat. Still think its useful to look at what they're doing because it's a clear innovation outside of 'well I bought wisefab and I'm just gonna wonder why it sucks until I put Achilles on it'

About the driver skill that's kind of what I'm getting at though, it's like, all these local kids are getting rid of caster and roll couple and then wondering why they can't feel anything through the steering, and their car looks like you kicked a shopping cart. it's like, you're gonna run 5 or 6 degrees of static amber anyway, you might as well let caster roll the contact patch flat and keep the feel.

Alternatively you can do whatever with Ackerman since most people's 4th gear has dust on it from never being used, but more Ackerman is probably useful learning faster tracks.
You definitely make some good points that people should consider before deciding on a steering setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by engineeringdrifts View Post

Why is the LCA ball-joint location offset rearward of the wheel rotational axis?
This was a decision made by a Nissan engineer. Given the S-chassis' relatively high static caster angle stock, they have to take into account the grandma's and other people driving the car that don't want high steering effort. Therefore, I'd imagine it was a decision mainly made to reduce steering effort for the average consumer.

On the same note, too much trail is a bad thing as well. I recently aligned an S13 with trailing knuckles and no offset strut tops, and in order to clear the bumpers and fenders (front and rear of the wheel well) at big steering angles, 8* of caster was necessary. This led to high speed caster wobble, which is terrifyingly difficult to control.
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