The Used Parts Market & Resellers

[!Zar!]

Too many people in here are misconstruing arbitrage with price fixing.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

In economics and finance, arbitrage (US: /ˈɑːrbɪtrɑːʒ/, UK: /ˈɑːbɪtrɪdʒ/, UK: /ˌɑːbɪˈtrɑːʒ/) is the practice of taking advantage of a price difference between two or more markets: striking a combination of matching deals that capitalize upon the imbalance, the profit being the difference between the market prices. When used by academics, an arbitrage is a (imagined, hypothetical, thought experiment) transaction that involves no negative cash flow at any probabilistic or temporal state and a positive cash flow in at least one state; in simple terms, it is the possibility of a risk-free profit after transaction costs. For instance, an arbitrage is present when there is the opportunity to instantaneously buy low and sell high.

In principle and in academic use, an arbitrage is risk-free; in common use, as in statistical arbitrage, it may refer to expected profit, though losses may occur, and in practice, there are always risks in arbitrage, some minor (such as fluctuation of prices decreasing profit margins), some major (such as devaluation of a currency or derivative). In academic use, an arbitrage involves taking advantage of differences in price of a single asset or identical cash-flows; in common use, it is also used to refer to differences between similar assets (relative value or convergence trades), as in merger arbitrage.

People who engage in arbitrage are called arbitrageurs /ˌɑːrbɪtrɑːˈʒɜːr/—such as a bank or brokerage firm. The term is mainly applied to trading in financial instruments, such as bonds, stocks, derivatives, commodities and currencies.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Price fixing is an agreement between participants on the same side in a market to buy or sell a product, service, or commodity only at a fixed price, or maintain the market conditions such that the price is maintained at a given level by controlling supply and demand.

The intent of price fixing may be to push the price of a product as high as possible, generally leading to profits for all sellers but may also have the goal to fix, peg, discount, or stabilize prices. The defining characteristic of price fixing is any agreement regarding price, whether expressed or implied.

Price fixing requires a conspiracy between sellers or buyers. The purpose is to coordinate pricing for mutual benefit of the traders. For example, manufacturers and retailers may conspire to sell at a common "retail" price; set a common minimum sales price, where sellers agree not to discount the sales price below the agreed-to minimum price; buy the product from a supplier at a specified maximum price; adhere to a price book or list price; engage in cooperative price advertising; standardize financial credit terms offered to purchasers; use uniform trade-in allowances; limit discounts; discontinue a free service or fix the price of one component of an overall service; adhere uniformly to previously-announced prices and terms of sale; establish uniform costs and markups; impose mandatory surcharges; purposefully reduce output or sales in order to charge higher prices; or purposefully share or pool markets, territories, or customers.

Price fixing is permitted in some markets but not others; where allowed, it is often known as resale price maintenance or retail price maintenance.

In neo-classical economics, price fixing is inefficient. The anti-competitive agreement by producers to fix prices above the market price transfers some of the consumer surplus to those producers and also results in a deadweight loss.

International price fixing by private entities can be prosecuted under the antitrust laws of many countries. Examples of prosecuted international cartels are those that controlled the prices and output of lysine, citric acid, graphite electrodes, and bulk vitamins.[1] .

[Almighty So]

Too many people in here are misconstruing a moral/ethics debate with trying to prove they took a business vocabulary course in high school.
We know how free markets work. We know how Wikipedia works.

Say you enjoy a cup of coffee for 50 cents all the time in your neighborhood.
Bunch of rich white girls move in. They’re all willing to pay up to $20 for a cup of coffee for those IG likes.
You don’t think $20 for a 50 cent cup of coffee is worth it but you’re not the majority anymore.
Eventually You can’t find a cup of coffee anywhere anymore for under $10.
So should you just shut the fuck up, find a new drink, and salute capitalism?
Not allowed to mention you might be bummed that your coffee is kind of fucked.
Nope. If so, you’re a selfish coffee prick hoarding all the drink who doesn’t understand the free market.

(I’ll save you a post: “but brooo supply and demand”)
Right, haven’t forgotten how that works. Still part of the problem.

This is a debate about ethics and morals when it comes down to it. You guys don’t have to keep arguing about definitions. We know those.
Everyone so worried about being “wrong” that they can’t even stay in context.

That being said, I’m not taking a “change the market, change the world” stance.
I’m not saying I have all the answers. But it’s an open discussion on a FORUM.

Jesus.. if zilvia was around when the first automobile was debuted, half the people would tell you to fuck off and send you Wikipedia articles about feet, walking, and horses.

[sidewaysil80]

Originally Posted by dizzariot

There's a drink out here you can buy at the konbini called Chuhai. They're ~ $1 a can. If I start exporting them at $5+/can that cost more than covers my shipping costs so how much of that markup is just me being a greedy dickhead?

I'm not of the camp that profit margins need to be scrutinized or judged.

Originally Posted by dizzariot

That's what I'm talking about. If these prices are so fucking overinflated and people are still paying them then by boycotting this shit won't we drive prices down to an acceptable level? I'm not saying people shouldn't profit...the problem with them making this a common thing is the price they post it for once they have it.

That is my point, even though the prices are overinflated to YOU, the market disagrees since people are still paying it. Whether it's morally right, wrong, or indifferent...what they are selling for is what they are worth.

[dizzariot]

To answer everyone without quoting: I get what you guys are saying about the price being whatever someone is willing to pay. It's been said so many fucking times that you can now quote me as saying I get it since people still feel the need to drive that point home. Now that that's out of the way...you're not getting what I'm trying to convey. We know it's morally wrong and fucked up so the direct questions is this:

Are we responsible to our own community to at least try and promote change or are we just not going to give a fuck and say 'it is what it is'? We can all point out bullshit. I know it's easier not to.

I'm not bitching about it. Bitching about something is when you complain and offer no solutions. I've put ideas in here but some people just can't seem to believe that I just (with no fucking benefit for me) think this shit is wrong, and should stop.

[sidewaysil80]

I don’t think it’s morally wrong or fucked up. It’s capitalism and I don’t care how much profit is being made by a company or individual.

Ergo, I don’t give a shit and obviously don’t think there is some obligation to boycott or try to effect his business.

[bigs]

Go make a kelly blue book for used Japanese aftermarket parts.

[!Zar!]

Originally Posted by Almighty So

Say you enjoy a cup of coffee for 50 cents all the time in your neighborhood.
Bunch of rich white girls move in. They’re all willing to pay up to $20 for a cup of coffee for those IG likes.
You don’t think $20 for a 50 cent cup of coffee is worth it but you’re not the majority anymore.

Apparently you don't know how the free market works because you're still babbeling on and on about nothing other than, 'the price isn't fair'.

The problem with your scenario is coffee isn't going anywhere, any time soon.

Certain parts for these cars are NOT in production any more. Meaning the market will dry up. When the market starts running dry, price goes up.

Why can't you comprehend this?

Most (all?) of your comments are implying that every part being sold is still in production and that everyone is selling it for above retail just because they are trying to take advantage.

Aero bumper prices went up because supply went down.

Kouki180sx lip prices went up because supply went down.

Kakume brick prices went up because supply went down.

S13/S14/AE86 prices went up because supply went down.

Prices are high because people know how scarce certain things are getting. Thus increasing desire and willingness to pay more.

Why should we chastise the seller when the buyer is willing to purchase for asking?

I want a nice car, so it is up to me, and nobody else what I think a part is worth, and what that value is to me.

[Almighty So]

Free market and supply and demand are well understood.
I did choose to compare this scenario to items that are still readily available, which admittedly wasn’t the best comparison seeing as no one actually looks at the main idea.
My main point wasn’t coffees availability. It’s the fact that something we all enjoyed for a reasonable price is now more expensive for everyone because some hype boys are ignorant to value.

I think our main disagreement comes from the items we are referring too. I understand supply and demand on very rare items like ones you have mentioned. However, I was referring to my previous example of the grex knob. While I’m well aware these aren’t being mass produced, they also aren’t one in a million. Dizzariot mentioned someone recently bought over ten BNIB. Myself personally have purchased two this past month, both for no more than $50 total each.
Point here being, I’m referring to items that aren’t really super scarce and rare, nor does it have a super crazy demand, but the price is still being increased. Not because of supply and demand but because ignorant and lazy people are ignorant to actual value.

Another loose example, when someone posts an entire schassis for sale with a “drift tax” price, everyone is quick to attack them because they are overly exaggerating the value in hopes to make a profit.
“So don’t buy the car”
Right that’s simple enough, but someone who is also ignorant to market/real value has mom and dads money and sees an expensive schassis. Must be ballin if it’s super pricey.

Now we have two more people who firmly believe in schassis selling for crazy amounts of money.
1, the seller because he has the cash in hand to prove it sold for over it’s value.
2, the buyer who convinces himself and everyone else that it was well worth it because he’s in denial of how bad he was ripped off.

The supply for 240s isn’t drastically low. The demand for them isn’t drastically high. But sales like these will also continue to increase the price. (Not trying to deny/undermine the fact that chassis dying also contributes)

Ignorance like that spreads like wildfire.
Why is someone selling a whole car with drift tax a moron who doesn’t understand used car value?
But then someone doing the same thing with car parts is a savvy entrepreneur with a smart hustle?

The dude with drift tax is trying to get over on someone who is ignorant to true value. It has nothing to do with the supply and demand for his chassis because I’d assure you a nicer and cheaper chassis is available somewhere.
Parts resale is similar imo.

[Almighty So]

when I acquired my s14 it was stock metal, stock aero, lowered on battles.
I went to my local car wash and a few dudes there asked me what I paid.
I didn’t give out a number. They had guesses upwards of $8500.
Almost nine thousand dollars for an s14 with coilovers in their minds.

Their reasoning? Wasn’t because they all had high demand for s14 and were willing to pay 9k for one. Also wasn’t because s14 is super rare and 9k is just right for the given supply.
It mostly ranged from “well my boy sold an s13 for 6k and yours is nicer.” And, “I’ve seen s14s on Craigslist for over 10k!”

The market is messed because they are ignorant and people are driving prices through the roof.

On one hand, yes I could get greedy and take advantage of that and cash out on my car. But on the other hand, I’ve also been in scenarios where non-car friends express interest in my car. If I suggest they look into purchasing their own, they are automatically turned off and don’t even consider it because of the same reasons the car wash guys had.

In my eyes, this is different than supply and demand.

[gbaby2089]

Today I learned S-chassis Nissans are rare.

EL. OH. EL.

[!Zar!]

A fool and his money are soon parted.

It’s up to the buyer to educate themselves. The seller simply needs to educate the buyer in an attempt to aid his/her sale.

[Almighty So]

Again with the “not my problem, don’t care” attitude. This is honestly just as selfish as “hoarding the market” lol.

I understand you’re trying to play devils advocate but what perfect world do you live in..?
People here don’t even know what Google is and you expect them to educate themselves rather than pee their pants with excitement that mom bought their first 240?
They aren’t deciding if cars are worth it, they are trying to pay top dollar so they can brag on IG.

Sellers are even worse. None of these resellers we are referring to are good-hearted people just here to educate their customers on true value.
They are here to pull the wool over the eyes of ignorant people. They attempt to justify, and downright lie, about outrageous prices in order to “educate” their consumers into thinking quadruple mark-up is normal.

Great system you’re relying on there.

[dizzariot]

Seems like it breaks down to this:

You either think that working together can stop this shit a little.

OR

You think it's the way of the world and it is what it is.

Good talk. If anyone else has anything else to share, now would be a great time. Maybe we can turn this thread into the 'calling bullshit' thread. Post links of heavily marked-up items and the links to the 'true' price as well. Gotta start somewhere.

[sidewaysil80]

[Almighty So]

Can agree. Some good counterpoints brought up but also some “brick wall” levels of reading comprehension.
Last notes: I understand the rising price with supply and demand for rare items. However, I feel there is a difference between that, and the prices rising on most general items because impatient and uneducated hype boys think that’s how much IG likes cost.
I don’t think our market should suffer due to ignorance and laziness.
I don’t think our market should suffer due to brokers flipping everything to fund their own builds while swearing up and down that it’s not about the profit and about helping people.
I don’t mind when rare parts gradually increase in price due to lowered supply but that’s not what is happening or what we are referring to.
The end.

[sidewaysil80]

Originally Posted by Almighty So

However, I feel there is a difference between that, and the prices rising on most general items because impatient and uneducated hype boys think that’s how much IG likes cost.

Originally Posted by Almighty So

I don’t think our market should suffer due to ignorance and laziness.

Suffering?! LOL, the market is thriving! Have you noticed how many new brokers have appeared? Have you noticed that the demand has exceeded supply? This is a GREAT time for this "market". The rarity of certain parts is giving way to new companies reproducing them so everyone can enjoy.

Originally Posted by Almighty So

I don’t think our market should suffer due to brokers flipping everything to fund their own builds...

Now we are expressing disapproval of what peoples motivations are to sell parts, got it.

[Almighty So]

Originally Posted by sidewaysil80

Suffering?! LOL, the market is thriving! Have you noticed how many new brokers have appeared? Have you noticed that the demand has exceeded supply? This is a GREAT time for this "market". The rarity of certain parts is giving way to new companies reproducing them so everyone can enjoy.


Now we are expressing disapproval of what peoples motivations are to sell parts, got it.

Lol yes we are expressing disapproval of intentions. That was in the first post, so welcome to the thread.
And yes, suffering. The fact that you think more brokers here to rip off young kids is a good thing is probably the root of our disagreement.
The fact you think cheaper replica products phasing out the real stuff is a good thing is also completely opposite of how I feel.

You’re looking at the market from a greedy sellers point of view. Yes of course it seems to be “thriving”. Lots of idiots easily tricked into overpaying due to peer judgement on the internet.
From a consumer stand point, everything being more expensive and/or replaced with replicas due to kids wanting to join the cool club is a slow death, not a thriving revival.

[Almighty So]

In the world of big-pharma, insulin costs pennies on the dollar.
Due to greedy pharmacists, misinformation, and idiots flocking like sheep, now all diabetics are paying $400+ for their medicine.
This isn’t because the supply isn’t there.
People who are less financially stable are getting sick because the prices are crazy.
I don’t think this is because they have a lower demand for good health or because they aren’t smart hustlers.
Everyone is screwed on prices but the market is “thriving” for pharmacists.

I’m aware shift knobs aren’t the same as lifelong illness but hopefully you can see where I’m coming from.

[sidewaysil80]

Originally Posted by Almighty So

The fact you think cheaper replica products phasing out the real stuff is a good thing is also completely opposite of how I feel.

To clarify, I'm talking about reproductions of parts long discontinued. I.e. Dorki Dori bumpers, GKTech Ganador type mirrors, etc. You can't have it both ways, the originals are going to skyrocket in price as they become more limited and the market will/is providing lower cost alternatives since demand is so high. You can't phase out something that is discontinued or no longer in production.

Originally Posted by Almighty So

From a consumer stand point, everything being more expensive and/or replaced with replicas due to kids wanting to join the cool club is a slow death, not a thriving revival.

Again, I'm not talking about "knock-offs" per say. I'm talking about replacements for parts not in existence anymore so people don't bitch about the price of Ganadors or front lips.

Originally Posted by Almighty So

You’re looking at the market from a greedy sellers point of view. Yes of course it seems to be “thriving”. Lots of idiots easily tricked into overpaying due to peer judgement on the internet.

No, I'm looking at it from a Capitalists point of view. Which with exception to monopolies provides the best value/lowest cost to consumers.

[Almighty So]

Originally Posted by sidewaysil80

, I'm looking at it from a Capitalists point of view. Which with exception to monopolies provides the best value/lowest cost to consumers.

lol, never mind
Prices have never been lower or closer to best value and the market is thriving with good-hearted people looking to provide the best information and prices available. *eye roll

Hell is also frozen, pigs fly, etc..

[yomisiu]

guess who

[bigs]

Maybe i'm just a nerd, but I think it's important to think about how we got to this point. It all comes back to us.

I feel like this backlash is due to the culture that was created as a result of social media/internet interactions. People glorified certain parts, because they weren't easy to obtain, or they were on iconic Japanese cars that some of us fell in love with early on. I think a lot of this was indirect at the time, because it was a somewhat small niche of enthusiasts, but it definitely shaped the current landscape. Think about all the people just getting into drifting that idolize Itai, Haruguchi, etc and have no idea why.

Certain parts immediately placed a person's car in this weird hierarchy that evolved over the years from internet posts, photos, comments, and shares. As more and more people became exposed to this information, the idea of what makes a car cool was set in stone.

Fast forward to 2018 - there are a lot more people into drifting. The bigger market and increased demand has made it easier to source the parts a, once small, subculture collectively deemed as "cool." This is of course going to attract the "scumbags" we're talking about in this thread. It's a booming market.

It's going to be extremely difficult to make any sort of change in the resell market, unless you create a website or some sort of meme account pointing out only the extremely marked up items (reasonable mark up shouldn't be frowned upon). As dumb as that sounds, that's how you get accelerated reach nowadays. I can definitely see something like this taking off, and potentially having the impact you guys are hoping for.

People that are "newly" introduced to the past tuning style need to recognize the cost associated with sourcing and purchasing these hard to find parts. Just because one person finds an amazing deal, doesn't mean that's the market price. The price comes with the territory. These parts are OLD.

That's why I think a lot of you are blowing this entirely out of proportion (for the time being). For every old part you find that has an extreme mark up, there are x amount that are reasonably priced. It just takes patience, and a little luck to find them sometimes. Anyone who gets mad or impatient about this fact needs to take a step back, and think about why that's the case.

On a side note, I can see this quickly turning into a hate group for anyone and everyone that is trying to run a resell business. That shouldn't be the case. It's great that we have easy access to parts that were previously unavailable.

[Almighty So]

^+rep I can agree with all of that. Well put. I guess in the simplest terms I can put it, it bums me out that everything we like is more expensive now because of all these people that “idolize haraguchi and have no idea why” decided this stuff was popular. Haha, the exact people I meant in my previous post. (Band-wagoners)
I don’t mean to come off as a wannabe market savior and I don’t believe the market is FUBAR, but I did want people to see that it can’t be simply written off with a utopian definition of how a free market should operate.

[Almighty So]

Originally Posted by dizzariot

by boycotting this shit won't we drive prices down to an acceptable level?

In related news, GET auto factory is currently having a sale for items that have been sitting on his site forever.
$39 for a bnib 6 speed grex knob. NOT TOO BAD.

[gbaby2089]

Originally Posted by Reece

So a car that I put together when I was 16 years old is somehow relevant to anything in this thread? I fail to see what this comment is supposed to mean lmao.

Just chuckling at you making fun of the very stuff you do/did.

Originally Posted by sidewaysil80

No, I'm looking at it from a garbage point of view.

ftfy

[gbaby2089]

Originally Posted by bigs

On a side note, I can see this quickly turning into a hate group for anyone and everyone that is trying to run a resell business. That shouldn't be the case. It's great that we have easy access to parts that were previously unavailable.

To be fair, a ton of the 'resale' dudes are just dorks in middle america browsing YAJ for bleh stuff, tossing a markup on them & throwing them on forums.

That's not running a business. That's just being a dork with free time.

[Almighty So]

@bigs Lol I really don’t want to seem like a hate group for all sellers. Everyone buys and sells parts. It’s the obvious scumbags that are sprinkled in there that irk me.

Originally Posted by gbaby2089

That's not running a business. That's just being a dork with free time.

These guys.
Funny you mention that though cause I was thinking earlier that I’m going to be lambasted next time I post something for sale haha

Side note; can you really be a hypocrite for something four years old that you no longer stand for? God forbid a teenagers point of view matures as he enters his 20s..

[bigs]

Originally Posted by gbaby2089

To be fair, a ton of the 'resale' dudes are just dorks in middle america browsing YAJ for bleh stuff, tossing a markup on them & throwing them on forums.

That's not running a business. That's just being a dork with free time.

We're all dorks with free time. It's the dorks that stick with it, create an end goal, and develop something respectable that grow the culture we're into. I think the ones who don't have any passion won't be around long enough to make a significant impact on the overall market, but that's just my opinion.

I'm not going to sit here and say I don't talk shit about people like the ones you're mentioning. I do all the time, just not on the internet haha. Eventually you realize that supporting and interacting with the people who share the same vision as you is the best thing you can do for the market/culture (and yourself). With the way social media is structured, the best action is no action when you don't like something. Any interaction, even viewing it, can push that individual's page out to people that follow you - giving it more attention.

I totally get that sometimes you really can't hold it in and have to comment.

ANYWAY, carry on. I said what I wanted to say

[JustinChillenBallin]

meme pricing

[gbaby2089]

Originally Posted by Almighty So

Side note; can you really be a hypocrite for something four years old that you no longer stand for? God forbid a teenagers point of view matures as he enters his 20s..

I mean, probably.

Originally Posted by bigs

We're all dorks with free time. It's the dorks that stick with it, create an end goal, and develop something respectable that grow the culture we're into. I think the ones who don't have any passion won't be around long enough to make a significant impact on the overall market, but that's just my opinion.

I'm not going to sit here and say I don't talk shit about people like the ones you're mentioning. I do all the time, just not on the internet haha. Eventually you realize that supporting and interacting with the people who share the same vision as you is the best thing you can do for the market/culture (and yourself). With the way social media is structured, the best action is no action when you don't like something. Any interaction, even viewing it, can push that individual's page out to people that follow you - giving it more attention.

I totally get that sometimes you really can't hold it in and have to comment.

ANYWAY, carry on. I said what I wanted to say

Have any of the dorks with free time actually turned their free time escapades into something real? And I wouldn't say they don't impact pricing, if I post my set of RG3 for $1700, someone else may see that, price theirs at $1700, etc. etc. etc., setting a new market, even if they can be had BNIB from a retailer for right around that price. I've just stopped buying used in an effort to cut out the hype dorks profiting off of the enthusiasm of others.