Tomei 143041 possible alternative to JWT S3? - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

noynek · 06-28-2012, 03:31 PM

Need some thoughts here.

I know that the JWT S3 is the super popular choice for Mid range 300-375rwhp SR20det crowd.

As far as I know the S3 Cam was originally made for the NA FWD SR20de ( I hope I'm correct) but has become very popular for the RWD Turbo SR20DETt

I've discovered the tomei Tomei Poncam Type-N 143041, 260 dur, 11.2 lift , for oem valvetrain FWD Sr20de Non- RR.

It has very similar specifications to the JJWT S3 on paper except for the .1mm less lift

I know that Tomei makes the 256 SR20det RWD Poncam but shouldn't the Tomei 143041 for SR20de fwd NA be implemented in the sr20det RWD the same way the S3 did?

Do I need to be concerned about incompatible in/ex overlap issues

It can also be had for at least $120 cheaper and is from a quality cam manufacturer.

Thoughts welcome

*codyace* · 06-28-2012, 09:52 PM

The most important thing to note however is the difference in cams themselves, and how cams are not cams are not cams. While cams may share similar lift and duration, what they do not share is the LSA/centerline between them, nor do they often share the profile or ramp rate. In regard to Lobe Seperation angle and centerlines, the cam company can physically grind their cam 'off center' and introduce a few degrees of advance (valves open/close sooner) or retard (valves open/close later) into them. Get a cam with a ton of LSA retard into it, and you'll have a slouchy car down low (less cylinder pressure) but allow for safer big boost power...have a car with more advance and you'll have a snappy setup down load/midrange, but have much higher cylidner pressure uptop, causing a more detonation prone situation (although you need to also consider overlap in those circumstances too)

At the end of the day, Lift and Duration are nice things to consider/know, but the true thing is to know the grind of the cam. Just because a specific cam has a 'hot number' behind it, is only half the tale of the. Have a big lift/duration cam on a narrow LSA and with a lot of overlap, and you're going to really not have much top end as a smaller lift/duration cam with a wider LSA/less overlap etc etc. ( Think of having a broom and taking chunks out of it, and putting a keyway in it. Then take another broom and take the same chunks, but move the keyway a little bit. Same lift/duration, MUCH different situation.)

This sort of stuff is why an 'HKS 264' blows a BC 264 out of the water, and why a JWT S3 260 or Tomei 260 typically do better than those same cams on most setups too. In that same regard that's why a HKS 264 may work nicer with a larger turbo as it undoubtedly has less overlap and more LSA than the 260 JWT too (but then again, that's why JWT makes the S4, which works nice too)

In regard to the cost, that is on the end user. While I'm noted for being a JWT fannboy, there is a reason for that...and a reason why those JWT cars often make the best graphs and power. In the grand scheme of things, what's 100 bucks on something as crucial as the cams in the car. In that same regard, the Tomei cams are nice (a very good buddy of mine swears by his ProCams) and would easily be the second choice for me. The thing is, Pro Cams require springs...S3 and S4 do not...so while cam cost is expensive...total package is not. Not many places in this world can we say the cheaper option is the better option (well, maybe a few, but that's neither here nor there

)

T.L;D.R (for Wayne and Obeewon ) -- Cam math is voodoo stuff well beyond anything else out there, well beyond simple lift and duration numbers. Get the S3's

PS:
In regard to FWD/RWD, the thing to consider with cams is that neither are really 'designed for FWD or RWD' specifically. JWT S3 cams were initially designed/and are still super popular with the FWD cars as that's just what they had available at the time...not for any other reason. In that same regard there is no specific 'turbo' cam out there for the street based/mass consumer SR world.

noynek · 07-04-2012, 05:13 AM

Cody, I like the trend of thought. It's good to see that healthy discussion could be had dealing with things that can affect our cars technically. We can always expect that from you for sure.

I'm always looking for alternatives (not trying to reinvent the wheel). I believe it's good to raise ideas and get feedback from the more experienced.

I believe that JWT has great CAMS. I also believe in variety and looking for other sound options that work. Fact is that some people get into this game with a less than ideal budget and regardless of what others think may only have X amount of $$. Its nice to be aware of all the "efficient" options available for power upgrades.

Cody as you said
Quote
"This sort of stuff is why an 'HKS 264' blows a BC 264 out of the water, and why a JWT S3 260 or Tomei 260 typically do better than those same cams on most setups too. In that same regard that's why a HKS 264 may work nicer with a larger turbo as it undoubtedly has less overlap and more LSA than the 260 JWT too (but then again, that's why JWT makes the S4, which works nice too) "
End Quote

I fully support that statement.

That's why I'm curios to see where the Tomei 143041 (11.2lift 260 Duration) might fit in this melting pot.

If anyone has had first hand experience with these cams turboed it would be nice if you chime in.

*steve shadows* · 07-06-2012, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codyace

The most important thing to note however is the difference in cams themselves, and how cams are not cams are not cams. While cams may share similar lift and duration, what they do not share is the LSA/centerline between them, nor do they often share the profile or ramp rate. In regard to Lobe Seperation angle and centerlines, the cam company can physically grind their cam 'off center' and introduce a few degrees of advance (valves open/close sooner) or retard (valves open/close later) into them. Get a cam with a ton of LSA retard into it, and you'll have a slouchy car down low (less cylinder pressure) but allow for safer big boost power...have a car with more advance and you'll have a snappy setup down load/midrange, but have much higher cylidner pressure uptop, causing a more detonation prone situation (although you need to also consider overlap in those circumstances too)

At the end of the day, Lift and Duration are nice things to consider/know, but the true thing is to know the grind of the cam. Just because a specific cam has a 'hot number' behind it, is only half the tale of the. Have a big lift/duration cam on a narrow LSA and with a lot of overlap, and you're going to really not have much top end as a smaller lift/duration cam with a wider LSA/less overlap etc etc. ( Think of having a broom and taking chunks out of it, and putting a keyway in it. Then take another broom and take the same chunks, but move the keyway a little bit. Same lift/duration, MUCH different situation.)

This sort of stuff is why an 'HKS 264' blows a BC 264 out of the water, and why a JWT S3 260 or Tomei 260 typically do better than those same cams on most setups too. In that same regard that's why a HKS 264 may work nicer with a larger turbo as it undoubtedly has less overlap and more LSA than the 260 JWT too (but then again, that's why JWT makes the S4, which works nice too)

In regard to the cost, that is on the end user. While I'm noted for being a JWT fannboy, there is a reason for that...and a reason why those JWT cars often make the best graphs and power. In the grand scheme of things, what's 100 bucks on something as crucial as the cams in the car. In that same regard, the Tomei cams are nice (a very good buddy of mine swears by his ProCams) and would easily be the second choice for me. The thing is, Pro Cams require springs...S3 and S4 do not...so while cam cost is expensive...total package is not. Not many places in this world can we say the cheaper option is the better option (well, maybe a few, but that's neither here nor there

)

T.L;D.R (for Wayne and Obeewon ) -- Cam math is voodoo stuff well beyond anything else out there, well beyond simple lift and duration numbers. Get the S3's

PS:
In regard to FWD/RWD, the thing to consider with cams is that neither are really 'designed for FWD or RWD' specifically. JWT S3 cams were initially designed/and are still super popular with the FWD cars as that's just what they had available at the time...not for any other reason. In that same regard there is no specific 'turbo' cam out there for the street based/mass consumer SR world.

Yes it is a form of black....magic or something but the HKS 264s paired with the right turbo have always been my favorite...has to be step 2...

The S3s are also great cams but it's more complicated than just cams...what cams?!?!? answer me dam*it!!!! but what cams + what turbo equals the end grin or happy place you're aiming for...

So I would ask what are you looking for? Just make sure you have a good idea...a lot of people end up with laggy setups that are slower but have a better peak number. I think the the best is somewhere in between.

Now if you were a baller you'd get both cams and try them both out.

There my still be an archived discussion on FA --- another Nissan Forum with a camshaft test by the same guy on the same car with almost every cam they made/make for the SR...

06-28-2012, 03:31 PM	#1
noynek Leaky Injector Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Caribbean Posts: 53 Trader Rating: (5) Feedback Score: 5 reviews	Tomei 143041 possible alternative to JWT S3? Need some thoughts here. I know that the JWT S3 is the super popular choice for Mid range 300-375rwhp SR20det crowd. As far as I know the S3 Cam was originally made for the NA FWD SR20de ( I hope I'm correct) but has become very popular for the RWD Turbo SR20DETt I've discovered the tomei Tomei Poncam Type-N 143041, 260 dur, 11.2 lift , for oem valvetrain FWD Sr20de Non- RR. It has very similar specifications to the JJWT S3 on paper except for the .1mm less lift I know that Tomei makes the 256 SR20det RWD Poncam but shouldn't the Tomei 143041 for SR20de fwd NA be implemented in the sr20det RWD the same way the S3 did? Do I need to be concerned about incompatible in/ex overlap issues It can also be had for at least $120 cheaper and is from a quality cam manufacturer. Thoughts welcome

06-28-2012, 09:52 PM	#2
codyace Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poconos, PA Age: 28 Posts: 7,003 Trader Rating: (50) Feedback Score: 50 reviews	The most important thing to note however is the difference in cams themselves, and how cams are not cams are not cams. While cams may share similar lift and duration, what they do not share is the LSA/centerline between them, nor do they often share the profile or ramp rate. In regard to Lobe Seperation angle and centerlines, the cam company can physically grind their cam 'off center' and introduce a few degrees of advance (valves open/close sooner) or retard (valves open/close later) into them. Get a cam with a ton of LSA retard into it, and you'll have a slouchy car down low (less cylinder pressure) but allow for safer big boost power...have a car with more advance and you'll have a snappy setup down load/midrange, but have much higher cylidner pressure uptop, causing a more detonation prone situation (although you need to also consider overlap in those circumstances too) At the end of the day, Lift and Duration are nice things to consider/know, but the true thing is to know the grind of the cam. Just because a specific cam has a 'hot number' behind it, is only half the tale of the. Have a big lift/duration cam on a narrow LSA and with a lot of overlap, and you're going to really not have much top end as a smaller lift/duration cam with a wider LSA/less overlap etc etc. ( Think of having a broom and taking chunks out of it, and putting a keyway in it. Then take another broom and take the same chunks, but move the keyway a little bit. Same lift/duration, MUCH different situation.) This sort of stuff is why an 'HKS 264' blows a BC 264 out of the water, and why a JWT S3 260 or Tomei 260 typically do better than those same cams on most setups too. In that same regard that's why a HKS 264 may work nicer with a larger turbo as it undoubtedly has less overlap and more LSA than the 260 JWT too (but then again, that's why JWT makes the S4, which works nice too) In regard to the cost, that is on the end user. While I'm noted for being a JWT fannboy, there is a reason for that...and a reason why those JWT cars often make the best graphs and power. In the grand scheme of things, what's 100 bucks on something as crucial as the cams in the car. In that same regard, the Tomei cams are nice (a very good buddy of mine swears by his ProCams) and would easily be the second choice for me. The thing is, Pro Cams require springs...S3 and S4 do not...so while cam cost is expensive...total package is not. Not many places in this world can we say the cheaper option is the better option (well, maybe a few, but that's neither here nor there ) T.L;D.R (for Wayne and Obeewon ) -- Cam math is voodoo stuff well beyond anything else out there, well beyond simple lift and duration numbers. Get the S3's PS: In regard to FWD/RWD, the thing to consider with cams is that neither are really 'designed for FWD or RWD' specifically. JWT S3 cams were initially designed/and are still super popular with the FWD cars as that's just what they had available at the time...not for any other reason. In that same regard there is no specific 'turbo' cam out there for the street based/mass consumer SR world. __________________ *Want Air Conditioning in your SR20 Swapped car? Check out www.sr20acbrackets.com for more information! Quest Alternator Conversions for SR20!* Check my Group Buy! Tired of lousy internal gates? Go external wastegate with one of my manifolds, Check out my group buy

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07-04-2012, 05:13 AM	#3
noynek Leaky Injector Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Caribbean Posts: 53 Trader Rating: (5) Feedback Score: 5 reviews	Cody, I like the trend of thought. It's good to see that healthy discussion could be had dealing with things that can affect our cars technically. We can always expect that from you for sure. I'm always looking for alternatives (not trying to reinvent the wheel). I believe it's good to raise ideas and get feedback from the more experienced. I believe that JWT has great CAMS. I also believe in variety and looking for other sound options that work. Fact is that some people get into this game with a less than ideal budget and regardless of what others think may only have X amount of $$. Its nice to be aware of all the "efficient" options available for power upgrades. Cody as you said Quote "This sort of stuff is why an 'HKS 264' blows a BC 264 out of the water, and why a JWT S3 260 or Tomei 260 typically do better than those same cams on most setups too. In that same regard that's why a HKS 264 may work nicer with a larger turbo as it undoubtedly has less overlap and more LSA than the 260 JWT too (but then again, that's why JWT makes the S4, which works nice too) " End Quote I fully support that statement. That's why I'm curios to see where the Tomei 143041 (11.2lift 260 Duration) might fit in this melting pot. If anyone has had first hand experience with these cams turboed it would be nice if you chime in.

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