POLL & INTEREST: 2010/2011 "240sx" Replacement - Page 5 - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

BustedS13 · 02-14-2009, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dorkidori_s13

back on topic guys...this isnt a thread discussing why the 350z is better than the S chassis or vice versa...the previous comments will be cleaned out as this thread isnt for fighting or arguing

but it's not really off topic... you asked about interest in the "s16" and i'm telling you why i have zero interest in it

because the 350z is a far better priced, better performing car. and the "s16" doesn't even exist yet.

dorkidori_s13 · 02-14-2009, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 98s14inaz

That's the problem...it won't be the same. It'll be some bloated under powered pos with an inflated price tag for sub par performance and way too many electronics

Do not want.

i seriously doubt nissan would ruin one of its own flagship cars with subpar performance...it learned its lesson in the 90s with the poor excuse of a motor that was dropped into the S chassis here...and now that we have the GTR to even everything out in the performance range...nissan should no longer need to worry about the S chassis outperforming the Z or GTR

Akiros · 02-14-2009, 10:35 PM

Can we stop comparing NEW cars to 5+ year old cars? wtf?
You will be able to pick up a used year old genesis next year with probably under 10k miles for probably ~ 16k with the factory warranty still in place.
There is a lot that can happen to a car in 50,000 miles...
People that WANT to buy new, buy new for a reason. The enthusiast population is MINIMAL. They are producing a car that the vast majority will consider, and I think that they will do EXTREMELY well.

Hyundai is entering a market with pretty much little competition. And the fact that no one is putting out a similar product is pretty wild to me. I'm really considering the GC because I'm looking to trade in my 65k mile car. I would MUCH rather buy a nissan / toyota product that was in the same pricerange with similar numbers and everything BUT there isn't one and likely won't be one for 2-3 years. So, what else would I do??

BustedS13 · 02-14-2009, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dorkidori_s13

i seriously doubt nissan would ruin one of its own flagship cars with subpar performance...it learned its lesson in the 90s with the poor excuse of a motor that was dropped into the S chassis here...and now that we have the GTR to even everything out in the performance range...nissan should no longer need to worry about the S chassis outperforming the Z or GTR

exactly

the s16 can't outperform the 370z, and it'll probably have significantly less horsepower than the 350z

why would you pay mid 20's for something that can't keep up with an '03-'08 z33, which you can pick up for low 10's

dorkidori_s13 · 02-15-2009, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BustedS13

exactly

the s16 can't outperform the 370z, and it'll probably have significantly less horsepower than the 350z

why would you pay mid 20's for something that can't keep up with an '03-'08 z33, which you can pick up for low 10's

honestly...for me...i dont want a V6...i want a 4cyl, RWD and TURBO sports coupe...not a $30,000+ LUXURY V6 sports car (sorry thats how the Z has always been marketed in countries with the GTR and Silvia variants)

i love the G35 to death...and would love one for a daily driver...but i would feel A LOT more at home with a 4 cyl, turbo rwd sports coupe that has the silvia lineage attached to it...and so do a lot of other people

you seem VERY jaded on even adopting the idea of nissan introducing an entry level sports coupe...whats that about??? if youre so jaded about it...please take your negative attitude to another conversation...all youve been doing is arguing with people in this thread...this thread needs input...not arguments

if you want to go buy a 70-80k+ milage 350z...then feel free to...but dont argue with everyone because YOUR interest differs

*Pacman* · 02-15-2009, 01:21 AM

I voted:
No, i cannot afford to spend $20.000 - $25,000 on a new car, but i am interested in the car greatly
Since I have 42K in debet from school. I do support Nissan though (although a Toyota employee :/ ) as I buy most of my replacement parts from them. Nothing better then OE parts (unless performance as NISMO is expensive on most things).
Lets see it with a double-wishbone suspension. Much better design then the McPhearson set-up on the cars now. I'll keep my S14 as I own it and just put a crapload of money in repair parts for it!

VNG704 · 02-15-2009, 06:40 AM

Interested in a new nissan s chassis. Would only buy if it was a 4 cyl turbo, rwd, and not soo funky looking. Oh and please, none of that fake titanium coloring on the interior. Looks really cheap. That was one thing I did not like at all in my bro's 350z. I don't think it will be any good being that it will probably drop Z sales. I would expect it to be a 6cyl sports car if the Z wasn't already that. All the sports cars now are getting bigger motors and are getting faster now and days.

*irax* · 02-15-2009, 09:24 AM

i don't think it will take away the sales of the Z but more the altima coupe or the sentra spec-v. If you apply your same logic then the Camaro will always take sales away from the 'vet... which it never has. All having a '240sx' does for nissan is let it brake into a market that could not afford a new Z anyways. Nissan does not really care about the resale of Z's as much as over all new car sales, since Nissan as a company does not make money on its used cars being sold. If you could get a NEW "240sx" instead of a used Z, more than half the time people would get the new "240sx". Sure the "240sx" will not be as fast as a Z but the whole 'new car' thing and the warranty will sell you on it.

98s14inaz · 02-15-2009, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dorkidori_s13

i seriously doubt nissan would ruin one of its own flagship cars with subpar performance...it learned its lesson in the 90s with the poor excuse of a motor that was dropped into the S chassis here...and now that we have the GTR to even everything out in the performance range...nissan should no longer need to worry about the S chassis outperforming the Z or GTR

You seriously believe that? Why give the GTR that craptastic trans with launch control and then tell people not to use it? Then tell them if they do and the trans breaks you are SOL and out of warranty. I don't see Nissan NA doing anything revolutionary and I doubt a new "silvia" or whatever is going to be what we want.

dorkidori_s13 · 02-15-2009, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 98s14inaz

You seriously believe that? Why give the GTR that craptastic trans with launch control and then tell people not to use it? Then tell them if they do and the trans breaks you are SOL and out of warranty. I don't see Nissan NA doing anything revolutionary and I doubt a new "silvia" or whatever is going to be what we want.

you seem to only be looking at the negative of the GTR

1) the launch control issue is being rememdied in the 2009/2010 models...nissan is doing away with it altogether

2) the GTR outperforms cars that cost almost 2-3 times the price tag...start looking at where it ranks in the minds and reviews of professionals all over the world...and not where it ranks or how it performs according to you...someone who has never driven one and just sees the car for its few MINOR faults

dorkidori_s13 · 02-15-2009, 12:56 PM

where are there so many of you who seem so jaded on the subject??? or so unwilling to change from your old chassis to a new one??? or completely down playing the idea of a brand S chassis when you havent even seen it in the place??? why not be a little optomistic instead of being so negative and instantly thinking the car will suck??? do you not pay attention to what nissan has done with its sportscars lately??? do you honestly think that if they released a new silvia/240sx replacement they would let it FAIL like the 240sx did this country???

*Sleepy240* · 02-15-2009, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dorkidori_s13

where are there so many of you who seem so jaded on the subject??? or so unwilling to change from your old chassis to a new one??? or completely down playing the idea of a brand S chassis when you havent even seen it in the place??? why not be a little optomistic instead of being so negative and instantly thinking the car will suck??? do you not pay attention to what nissan has done with its sportscars lately??? do you honestly think that if they released a new silvia/240sx replacement they would let it FAIL like the 240sx did this country???

I don't think these people are "jaded" as you say, I would go with realistic. Would I love to see a new S-chassis? Abso-fucking-lutely! Would I love to see a turbo 4 or 6 cylinder RWD car? You better fucking believe it! The problem is this would (atleast IMO) not be what Nissan would produce. For one the biggest problem I see is the chassis itself. The only ones really available to be used (especially for a RWD setup) is the current Z/G chassis. With the market being the way it is I would find it hard to believe Nissan would dump copious amounts of money into developing a new chassis and then finding a way to fit a motor into a chassis that the company doesn't produce.

To the best of my knowledge Nissan does not produce ANY 4 Cylinder turbocharged motors (RWD). That pretty much only leaves you with the VQ (unless Nissan decides to produce a brand new motor). So having two different cars (based on the same chassis and motors) at different price points WILL alter sales as far the Z/G series go, its like competing against yourself. Sure you'll be hitting the same crowd that the Genesis / GC is going to appeal to but its cutting off the nose to spite the face. To me the main reason I CANNOT see Nissan producing a new S-Chassis is because frankly there isn't a REAL market it for it. Obviously 99% of this forum is for it and same with most other sports car forums, but the car needs to appeal to others than just a small community (when compared to car buyers as a whole).

So to answer you question simply, Yes. If Nissan released a new S-Chassis / 240sx / S16 whatever you want to call it they would let it fail. It wouldn't entirely be their fault. The ONLY way I see Nissan producing this car is for some reason the Genesis / GC TAKE off and sales go through the roof (which I also don't forsee happening).

s0apgun · 02-15-2009, 04:05 PM

honestly

i want them to take some more years to make this car the right way and market it correctly

rather than rushing it out the door to compete with some stupid hyundai

Gnnr · 02-15-2009, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 98s14inaz

You seriously believe that? Why give the GTR that craptastic trans with launch control and then tell people not to use it?

The people who are whining the most about it are people who:

A. Don't own a GTR
B. Can't afford a GTR
C. Weren't going to get one anyway
D. All the above

The people who own it and others who are on the waiting list (because there is one) aren't doing all this bitching.

shinhed · 02-15-2009, 08:40 PM

Does it make the question less valid? I don't think so.

*ReDs13SiLvIa* · 02-15-2009, 11:09 PM

I just hope it's light,well balanced,simple to work on,and has at least a turbo engine option =}

*fliprayzin240sx* · 02-16-2009, 05:42 PM

Wow...I just looked at the Genesis Coupe's Spec, there is no fucking way Nissan can build a car that can compete with that for the same or less price. This car has the potential to blow cars thats in the mid $30K-low $40K cars with all its standard options...

If Nissan tried, itll fuck up the sales of the 370Z and the G37 coupes...

*irax* · 02-17-2009, 02:03 AM

yeah but honestly since nissan is a bigger swinger than hyundai. all they really have to do is offer more but slower and less than the gen coupe. take for instance a "240sx" coupe with HIDs, Brembos, 19's, lame interior, 6speed/5speed mt, 2.0 turbo or 2.5 NA around the 220 hp range for around 18-25k it would beat the gen coupe.

DC Dan MAX USA · 02-17-2009, 02:47 AM

I voted "I will be purchasing a 2010 Hyundai Genesis" Maybe it will turn out to suck but all the signs are making me think it has better than average chance of being a nice platform for the future of our sport. I'm 30, married, got a job and a house, would like a new LEGAL turbo 4 thats reliable, gets better gas mileage and offers more thrills than my v8 truck for DD and occasional onramp hijinks, I have 2 track cars that are way too illegal to drive on the street. I'll never get rid of my S15 but it is just for the track the Genesis seems to be a correct fit for a DD. Nice Ib - just you and me up in GenesisDrift.net for now, maybe the other guys in the 10% of the vote will join us there?

*irax* · 02-17-2009, 02:53 AM

Yeah I am hoping. www.genesisdrift.net has some cool videos and pics of the gen coupe. I hope it gets real big!

DC Dan MAX USA · 02-17-2009, 03:02 AM

when its all done up with proper fitment its not too bad.
this is the best KDM example I've seen:

*irax* · 02-17-2009, 03:10 AM

yeah I really like the fitment of that coupe, though it needs more lip in the front

btw fixed.

DC Dan MAX USA · 02-17-2009, 04:02 AM

what they really need is some one to man up with thug offsets and some gangster lip Japanese wheels and a hot session on those virgin arches with some mean fender rolling, but thats as close as I could find

*irax* · 02-17-2009, 04:09 AM

I think you should fit the HRE's that are on your skyline on your new gen coupe...assuming that its the same bolt pattern.

dorkidori_s13 · 02-17-2009, 12:02 PM

feedback in this thread is awesome...but we need more votes...like 1500 views and 220+ votes???

come on zilvians...VOTE!!!

*jim1234664* · 02-17-2009, 12:37 PM

the only way this would work is if they moved the z upmarket and basically filled the z's slot but at ~25k

dorkidori_s13 · 02-17-2009, 01:54 PM

uh...the Z is upmarket

the BASE model Z starts at 29k...not exactly ENTRY level marketed

do you guys not see that the Z is not an entry level coupe??? the Z in every other market has always been sold as a LUXURY SPORTS CAR...its heavy...it uses a HUGE engine (ie: silvia 2.0, gtr 2.6, z32 3.0) its gushy on the inside...has a ton of electronic gizmos...the list goes on and on...and it still holds true to that idea today (hint hint nudge nudge...automatic rev matching...double clutch slushbox tranny etc etc)

*racepar1* · 02-17-2009, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dorkidori_s13

uh...the Z is upmarket

the BASE model Z starts at 29k...not exactly ENTRY level marketed

do you guys not see that the Z is not an entry level coupe??? the Z in every other market has always been sold as a LUXURY SPORTS CAR...its heavy...it uses a HUGE engine (ie: silvia 2.0, gtr 2.6, z32 3.0) its gushy on the inside...has a ton of electronic gizmos...the list goes on and on...and it still holds true to that idea today (hint hint nudge nudge...automatic rev matching...double clutch slushbox tranny etc etc)

The problem is that a used z-33 is an entry level sports coupe right now. Why would anyone go out and spend twice as much money on a new car that is slower then a 350? It doesn't make sense. The "s-16" will have all the same electronic gizmos, safety equipment, and emissions equipment as any other new car. That will make it too heavy to be what it should be. We all want a mid-weight (2800lb or less curb weight), RWD, turbo 4-cyl, entry level sports car. The problem is that in today's world one cannot be produced due to safety and marketing constraints. What we'll end up with is a luxury sports car with an entry level motor, not a good combination. Nissan is not stupid. They are not going to really knock it out of the park with the s-16 as that will jeapordize 370z sales.

dorkidori_s13 · 02-17-2009, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by racepar1

The problem is that a used z-33 is an entry level sports coupe right now. Why would anyone go out and spend twice as much money on a new car that is slower then a 350? It doesn't make sense. The "s-16" will have all the same electronic gizmos, safety equipment, and emissions equipment as any other new car. That will make it too heavy to be what it should be. We all want a mid-weight (2800lb or less curb weight), RWD, turbo 4-cyl, entry level sports car. The problem is that in today's world one cannot be produced due to safety and marketing constraints. What we'll end up with is a luxury sports car with an entry level motor, not a good combination. Nissan is not stupid. They are not going to really knock it out of the park with the s-16 as that will jeapordize 370z sales.

there are so many things that i could argue you to death over with your above statements...but im not really in the mood to as it seems i just get more negative feedback from anyone on here about the "why it cant happen" instead of "why it CAN happen"

wheres all the POSITIVE thought in all of this guys...seriously...are all of you so close minded, or jaded or just worn out on the thought of something NEW...something that CAN be marketed right...something that CAN work...something that IS worth buying??? something that WILL compete in the areas we are looking for???

but to all of that i hear no...no it wont work...no nissan will screw it up...no the 350z is better...no the car wont look like i did in the 90s...no the car will be slow...no the car will be heavy...no this and no that

have you guys sat down and read some if not all of the information that mel, driftfreaq, yuri, myself, and a few others have presented to you in various threads on this forum??? (most notably being the "2010 sports coupe thread that is over 50 pages long now and packed FULL of useful information) do you guys seriously have SO little faith in anything weve presented??? (if i remember correctly...yuri was going to college for automotive design)

heres a few little fun facts for you guys to marinate on...

1) nissan has sworn that by 2015-2020 it wants to lighten ALL its cars by AT LEAST 15% compared to todays cars...so what does that mean...well take the weight of the 350z...multiply 3400lbs times .15...what do you get??? 2890lbs...go take a look at the 370z...nissan shaved close to 100lbs off the curb weight of that beast compared to the 350...unlike most modern cars that keep getting heavier with each itteration...it got lighter..and the reason for this being so that they can continue offering great motors in their cars without having to sacrifice performance completely just to abide by stricter and very harsh fuel milage regulation laws

2) actual information received from nissan by myself...im not going to delve into details that ive talked about in the past...but from my information STRAIGHT FROM THE MOUTH OF NISSAN EXECS...the car would have NO PROBLEM achieving the same kind of weight and performance we use to see in the late 90s/early 2000s with the S15 silvia...remember one thing...the VQ series engine wouldnt be used in the "S16" itteration...it would be a 4 cyl turbo...so shave off yet another 100-150 lbs from the curb weight (hell if you switch to an SR in a s chassis you shave off 75 lbs from that stupid heavy KA POS)

3) the general buyers market...PEOPLE DONT WANT CARS THAT ARE OLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you guys seem to forget that a lot of the time...i guess since were all so stuck in building rolling shit boxes that are aging faster and faster everyday that we tend to forget 90% of people out there DO NOT WANT a car that is 60,000 miles old with a few problems...no...they want something brand new and shiny in 3-5 years time when theyre done racking up the milage on the odometer...people who are locked into the affordability range of 20-28k a month that want something sporty have literally NOTHING right now in the way of a RWD coupe...guess what would fill that spot????? the new silvia, the rwd scion TC, the RWD subaru impreza, and the brand new hyundai genesis coupe...all of those cars are meant to be in the $20,000 - $25,000 range...i dont see a used low milage 350z in that list...nor do i see a used low milage G35 in that list either...why??? because why spend $16,000-$27,500 on a low milage used car when you could spend $23,500 on a brand new one out the door that has ZERO miles and ZERO problems???

i think for a moment you guys need to step back and perhaps remember that the market of car buyers is not entirely like us...i know for one i dont want a daily driver that i have to tear apart and repair completely before i can even take it to the DMV to register it because some kid before me blew the motor in it...or because i cant find a guy to "smog" my SR20...i would personally (as would a lot of people) love not to even have to THINK about swapping a motor into my new chassis...or just to go pick up a BRAND NEW, NEVER ABUSED 4 cyl, turbo, rwd coupe that i can actually take care of...instead of having to build it from the ground up

sorry about the rant...but im beginning to think this thread was a waste of time because for every one positive reply i get in here...there are 3 of you who just turn around say "oh its nothing but a waste of time because of this problem and this problem...oh and dont forget this problem and i dont like it because its different or new" instead of saying "oh that would be such an awesome thing in life to come along...what if it had this and oh wouldnt that be hella cool if nissan made it look like this...or if they used this style turbo setup...or oh wouldnt brembos be badass for a stock S chassis to compete with the genesis???"

think about the amount of negativity and pessamisim being put forth in the things you post or talk about in life...seriously...it does affect your general "karma" and outlook in life..and what life brings you...why do you think personally im trying to stay positive in so many of the things i post???

*SimpleS14* · 02-17-2009, 09:03 PM

hmm......I just I think this car is simply not geared towards most members of this forum. Since a good amount do not represent the "general public".

Most people on here might want a car to modify to their wants and needs that has a low initial cost, hence why the 350Z is being thrown around.

Once this car is released, I can see a new slew of people supporting it and yes it can be successful.

When it's used and dirt cheap, maybe some of these forum members will revisit it.

View Poll Results: Please Vote HONESTLY Below...
Yes, I am ready to make a new car purchase, and i want the new "240sx replacement"	69	11.42%
I am interested in the car, but i will not make a decision until ive seen the car	276	45.70%
No, i cannot afford to spend $20.000 - $25,000 on a new car, but i am interested in the car greatly	156	25.83%
No, Nissan has lost a customer due to not making any official announcements and im tired of waiting	11	1.82%
No, i am planning on purchasing a 350z/370z/G35/G37	44	7.28%
I will be purchasing a 2010 Hyundai Genesis because i am tired of the wait for Nissan's offering	48	7.95%
Voters: 604. You may not vote on this poll

02-16-2009, 05:42 PM	#137
fliprayzin240sx SLINKY + ESCULATOR = Fun Times Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ass Crack of Japan Posts: 8,414 Trader Rating: (5) Rides Gallery: fliprayzin240sx	Wow...I just looked at the Genesis Coupe's Spec, there is no fucking way Nissan can build a car that can compete with that for the same or less price. This car has the potential to blow cars thats in the mid $30K-low $40K cars with all its standard options... If Nissan tried, itll fuck up the sales of the 370Z and the G37 coupes... __________________

02-17-2009, 02:47 AM	#139
DC Dan MAX USA Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: San Diego Posts: 1,435 Trader Rating: (39)	I voted "I will be purchasing a 2010 Hyundai Genesis" Maybe it will turn out to suck but all the signs are making me think it has better than average chance of being a nice platform for the future of our sport. I'm 30, married, got a job and a house, would like a new LEGAL turbo 4 thats reliable, gets better gas mileage and offers more thrills than my v8 truck for DD and occasional onramp hijinks, I have 2 track cars that are way too illegal to drive on the street. I'll never get rid of my S15 but it is just for the track the Genesis seems to be a correct fit for a DD. Nice Ib - just you and me up in GenesisDrift.net for now, maybe the other guys in the 10% of the vote will join us there? __________________ #1 FAQ: How To order: (A) Ask me for a parts quote with shipping to your postal code (B) Send payment to maxusa@poweredbymax.net on www.paypal.com (C) Please write the item description in the "Email to recipient" notes section

02-17-2009, 03:02 AM	#141
DC Dan MAX USA Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: San Diego Posts: 1,435 Trader Rating: (39)	when its all done up with proper fitment its not too bad. this is the best KDM example I've seen: __________________ #1 FAQ: How To order: (A) Ask me for a parts quote with shipping to your postal code (B) Send payment to maxusa@poweredbymax.net on www.paypal.com (C) Please write the item description in the "Email to recipient" notes section Last edited by DC Dan MAX USA; 02-17-2009 at 04:02 AM.

02-17-2009, 04:02 AM	#143
DC Dan MAX USA Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: San Diego Posts: 1,435 Trader Rating: (39)	what they really need is some one to man up with thug offsets and some gangster lip Japanese wheels and a hot session on those virgin arches with some mean fender rolling, but thats as close as I could find __________________ #1 FAQ: How To order: (A) Ask me for a parts quote with shipping to your postal code (B) Send payment to maxusa@poweredbymax.net on www.paypal.com (C) Please write the item description in the "Email to recipient" notes section

02-15-2009, 06:40 AM	#127
VNG704 Zilvia Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 238 Trader Rating: (2)	Interested in a new nissan s chassis. Would only buy if it was a 4 cyl turbo, rwd, and not soo funky looking. Oh and please, none of that fake titanium coloring on the interior. Looks really cheap. That was one thing I did not like at all in my bro's 350z. I don't think it will be any good being that it will probably drop Z sales. I would expect it to be a 6cyl sports car if the Z wasn't already that. All the sports cars now are getting bigger motors and are getting faster now and days.

02-15-2009, 04:05 PM	#133
s0apgun In time-out for misbehaving. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: 　　　　 Posts: 5,211 Trader Rating: (11)	honestly i want them to take some more years to make this car the right way and market it correctly rather than rushing it out the door to compete with some stupid hyundai

02-15-2009, 08:40 PM	#135
shinhed Zilvia Addict Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Austria Posts: 674 Trader Rating: (0)	Does it make the question less valid? I don't think so.

02-15-2009, 11:09 PM	#136
ReDs13SiLvIa ReDs13SiLvIa Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Age: 24 Posts: 66 Trader Rating: (0) Rides Gallery: ReDs13SiLvIa	I just hope it's light,well balanced,simple to work on,and has at least a turbo engine option =}

02-17-2009, 12:37 PM	#146
jim1234664 get her spunk drunk Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts: 134 Trader Rating: (0)	the only way this would work is if they moved the z upmarket and basically filled the z's slot but at ~25k

02-17-2009, 09:03 PM	#150
SimpleS14 Keeping it simple... Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Fairfax, VA Age: 26 Posts: 7,839 Trader Rating: (0) Rides Gallery: SimpleS14	hmm......I just I think this car is simply not geared towards most members of this forum. Since a good amount do not represent the "general public". Most people on here might want a car to modify to their wants and needs that has a low initial cost, hence why the 350Z is being thrown around. Once this car is released, I can see a new slew of people supporting it and yes it can be successful. When it's used and dirt cheap, maybe some of these forum members will revisit it. __________________ *Goals are dreams with a deadline.* MA240SX L.H.O.O.Q.

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